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Post by Strayed on Dec 15, 2016 23:54:43 GMT -5
Actually, I'd say that doing it the other way(bots cannot be higher than weaps) and keeping level 30 players out of low silver and below in general would help noobies a lot more. An experienced player will almost always win against a noob. A level 4 gep with level 4 magnums is still going to win over a level 4 destrier with level 4 punishers. In addition, this would cause noobs to rush their bot upgrades which only encourages the bot over weaps playstyle and boost them to hgiher tiers.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Dec 16, 2016 0:15:34 GMT -5
How would making the limit be the weapons level change anything when the meta is already 4/12? The limit being the bot level is to discourage the blatant min/maxing we get now in HB and Last Stand. I have been playing around with Tin's concept of whatever the highest lvl slot on the bot is, be it weapon or the bot itself, would be the bots lvl for scoring purpose. I.E. a 4/12 Gepard has the same hangar score as a 12/4 Gepard or a 12/12 Gepard. Throw in Hangar average instead of highest bot, and now you have a system that doesn't punish you nearly as hard for not knowing the exact science of upgrades with plenty o' spreadsheets handy. Very little impact on most hangars that have weapons 2-3 lvls higher then the bot. The main changes would be to hangars that clearly don't understand MM ( a little more forgiving) or that have min/maxed the MM system (everyone's favorite, the 4/12 gep hangar would be thrown into a much higher tier.)
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Post by Dredd77 on Dec 16, 2016 0:40:03 GMT -5
Actually, I'd say that doing it the other way(bots cannot be higher than weaps) and keeping level 30 players out of low silver and below in general would help noobies a lot more. An experienced player will almost always win against a noob. A level 4 gep with level 4 magnums is still going to win over a level 4 destrier with level 4 punishers. In addition, this would cause noobs to rush their bot upgrades which only encourages the bot over weaps playstyle and boost them to hgiher tiers. Couldn't disagree more. Thanks to a taste of Premium, I'm like level 24 right now. Which means jack to me- I've been playing less than two weeks. I'm happy in Bronze right now, and should be able to continue to be happy in Bronze for as long as I want, regardless of level. To be clear, that does NOT mean I should be able to club new players as long as I want. But I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to field Bronze-level gear against players of similar experience who also prefer to field Bronze-level gear. Level should NOT determine tier eligibility- but if the system were structured so that I was pooled with players of comparable ability, I'd have no complaints at all. I just happen to really enjoy Bronze right now, and why should players be forced into higher tiers? |
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Dec 16, 2016 0:48:10 GMT -5
Gep and Rog clubbing are a separate issue from MM (to me). Those bots are the only premium bots that don't suffer the same penalty as other WSP and Gold items. That is a symptom of poor bot weighting by Pix.
An Elo MM is more about keeping experienced players out of matches with new players. A level 30 player shouldn't be able to dive down and beat on level 12 players, regardless of equipment.
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Post by Strayed on Dec 16, 2016 1:04:34 GMT -5
How would making the limit be the weapons level change anything when the meta is already 4/12? The limit being the bot level is to discourage the blatant min/maxing we get now in HB and Last Stand. I have been playing around with Tin's concept of whatever the highest lvl slot on the bot is, be it weapon or the bot itself, would be the bots lvl for scoring purpose. I.E. a 4/12 Gepard has the same hangar score as a 12/4 Gepard or a 12/12 Gepard. Throw in Hangar average instead of highest bot, and now you have a system that doesn't punish you nearly as hard for not knowing the exact science of upgrades with plenty o' spreadsheets handy. Very little impact on most hangars that have weapons 2-3 lvls higher then the bot. The main changes would be to hangars that clearly don't understand MM ( a little more forgiving) or that have min/maxed the MM system (everyone's favorite, the 4/12 gep hangar would be thrown into a much higher tier.) So that we don't get bots stupidly higher than weap levels? How many level 9 griffs with level 6 weaps have you seen in gold tier? This would help noobies a lot by making sure that they don't upgrade themselves into gold tier way before they're ready. The problem with limiting weap levels to bot levels is that this forces noobies up to the higher tiers much sooner than they should be. A 6/6 destrier is ranked higher than a 4/12 destrier for instance, and the 6/6 destrier is much less effective. This is why I also suggested keeping level 30 players out of the lower tiers(you can make the player level even lower if you wish so). What encourages camping is dying too quickly. You know how sometimes after you've meched out of a bot extremely quickly you feel like reaching for that midrange bot you keep in your hangar? This is basically that but at an extreme. Dying far too quickly from mag geps, thunder schutzes, and the like causes noobs to stay further and further away from the battlefield in an attempt to increase their survivability. In addition, this also causes them to have far too little experience with knife fighting and also less skill in general as they have less time per match to practice their skills. Your idea still would not help at all with the noobies, an overly leveled bot is going to be thrown into the higher tiers anyways and people are just going to run 4/4 gep mags instead to club in bronze since clubbing in silver is now practically impossible. In fact, you've removed most of their competition, such as the thunder schutze, the orkan cossack, the aphid gep, the pinata gep, the pinata destrier, etc. The only setups that would be able to get into the same tier as the gep and still be useful would be the 4/4 taran cossack and the 4/4 mag destrier. The taran cossack would be much slower, have less firepower, and have less health, same for the mag destrier. And this also shifts the margin of clubbing much lower. Right now, clubbing is mostly in low silver, which is much better than last year where you could club in rookie tier. You can't just look at fixing the current problems, you have to look at fixing the future problems as well. |
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Post by Strayed on Dec 16, 2016 1:08:49 GMT -5
Actually, I'd say that doing it the other way(bots cannot be higher than weaps) and keeping level 30 players out of low silver and below in general would help noobies a lot more. An experienced player will almost always win against a noob. A level 4 gep with level 4 magnums is still going to win over a level 4 destrier with level 4 punishers. In addition, this would cause noobs to rush their bot upgrades which only encourages the bot over weaps playstyle and boost them to hgiher tiers. Couldn't disagree more. Thanks to a taste of Premium, I'm like level 24 right now. Which means jack to me- I've been playing less than two weeks. I'm happy in Bronze right now, and should be able to continue to be happy in Bronze for as long as I want, regardless of level. To be clear, that does NOT mean I should be able to club new players as long as I want. But I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to field Bronze-level gear against players of similar experience who also prefer to field Bronze-level gear. Level should NOT determine tier eligibility- but if the system were structured so that I was pooled with players of comparable ability, I'd have no complaints at all. I just happen to really enjoy Bronze right now, and why should players be forced into higher tiers? Hm, what about a special tier to pair clubbers with other clubbers? This would solve the issue of clubbing pushing noobies away from the game(believe me, this is happening, one wik2 officer who created an alt account reported much less players in the lower tiers, around 7 players per match max, compared to when he started out) and would allow those who enjoy the gameplay of the lower tiers to continue enjoying that gameplay. What do you say? |
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Post by Loop_Stratos on Dec 16, 2016 2:09:03 GMT -5
Actually, I'd say that doing it the other way(bots cannot be higher than weaps) and keeping level 30 players out of low silver and below in general would help noobies a lot more. An experienced player will almost always win against a noob. A level 4 gep with level 4 magnums is still going to win over a level 4 destrier with level 4 punishers. In addition, this would cause noobs to rush their bot upgrades which only encourages the bot over weaps playstyle and boost them to hgiher tiers. My thought would be if that kind of system would be put into place, the MM system would also be overhauled. I guess i just didn't find it mention-worthy. Weapon max over bot max would also work i guess. |
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Post by Dredd77 on Dec 16, 2016 9:27:36 GMT -5
Couldn't disagree more. Thanks to a taste of Premium, I'm like level 24 right now. Which means jack to me- I've been playing less than two weeks. I'm happy in Bronze right now, and should be able to continue to be happy in Bronze for as long as I want, regardless of level. To be clear, that does NOT mean I should be able to club new players as long as I want. But I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to field Bronze-level gear against players of similar experience who also prefer to field Bronze-level gear. Level should NOT determine tier eligibility- but if the system were structured so that I was pooled with players of comparable ability, I'd have no complaints at all. I just happen to really enjoy Bronze right now, and why should players be forced into higher tiers? Hm, what about a special tier to pair clubbers with other clubbers? This would solve the issue of clubbing pushing noobies away from the game(believe me, this is happening, one wik2 officer who created an alt account reported much less players in the lower tiers, around 7 players per match max, compared to when he started out) and would allow those who enjoy the gameplay of the lower tiers to continue enjoying that gameplay. What do you say?
Aren't we saying about the same thing?
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Post by Strayed on Dec 16, 2016 9:56:46 GMT -5
Oh whoops, forgive me then, lol.
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Post by lephturn on Dec 16, 2016 9:57:25 GMT -5
That would make ZERO change to the current meta of 4/12 gep hangars. Fairly sure he meant what he wrote. Given that there's lots of reason to run a lv 1 light with weapons a few levels higher and the common wisdom is to keep weapons at least two levels above the bot itself it seems unlikely that capping weapons at the bot level is prudent. I think a great solution would be to impose a 2 level maximum gap. IE: Your weapons can only be 2 levels higher than the bot they are mounted on. Unlikely to happen though, because Pix would have to code functionality to auto-dismount any weapons that don't meet the criteria and include functionality and tips that teach players what to do. I still think it's a good solution. Better than just doing it from the MM side, because that is effectively invisible to most players. Short term easy solution is just to score a bot/weapon combo in your hanger based on the highest level on a given bot instead of an average. Got a 2/12 mag Gep? He's up against max hangers because of level 12 mags. Done. Not a problem for high level players with level 12 weapons, they would quickly figure it out. Not a penalty for the masses and lower tier players because they won't have insanely high level weapons on low bots anyway. |
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Post by Dredd77 on Dec 16, 2016 10:11:46 GMT -5
lephturn Just thinking out loud here, but wouldn't it be interesting if they normalized based on hangar points rather than on bodies? This sort of falls under the Warhammer-style "points strength" idea, that my team's four bots are as strong as your six, so we get less people on our team.
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Post by lephturn on Dec 16, 2016 10:19:18 GMT -5
lephturn Just thinking out loud here, but wouldn't it be interesting if they normalized based on hangar points rather than on bodies? This sort of falls under the Warhammer-style "points strength" idea, that my team's four bots are as strong as your six, so we get less people on our team. Agreed - a 4 or 5 bot hangar adding to your score makes sense. You would have to be careful though that it didn't mean people simply re-rolled to use a 2 slot hangar with an OP medium or heavy and club. Easy enough to deal with - just have it be a modifier not that critical and it might work. I doubt we'll see it though given they let things like 2/6 or 4/12 mag/Geps happen now. |
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Dec 16, 2016 11:21:56 GMT -5
Yer all making this entirely too complicated.
Character level has no impact on gameplay except unlocking bots and weapons for sale. As such I do not think it should be used as a criteria for match making. What you do with that access is far more relevant.
Mr. Elo's ranking system is based on pure performance metrics, and does not have to consider variations in access to nor quality of available equipment. In Chess, you have all the pieces and all the potential that your opponent does from the start. In War Robots, you have to play the game for a guaranteed amount of time to be granted access to better equipment and to be able to improve it's quality. A pure Elo system would be flawed for War Robots.
The debate here seems to center around us speculating on the best methods to create a hybrid system that combines the performance metrics of Elo systems with intent of the equipment level Hanger Score system. Elo works, I'm not going to bother trying to improve that side of the equation.
Here's how I would do Hanger Scores, feel free to nit-pick me to death:
Weight Class Multiplier: Light Bot = Bot Level*1, Medium Bot = Bot Level*1.5, Heavy Bot = Bot Level*2
WSP/Gold Bot = (Bot Level+1)*Weight Class Multiplier
Light Weapon Slot (WS) = +1, Medium WS = +2, Heavy WS = +3, Each Special Ability = +1
Each Weapon Level = +1
Gold/WSP Weapon = Weapon Level+5
Every bot in your active hanger counts towards your Hanger Score. There is a huge tactical difference between having 1 bot in your hanger versus 5.
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Dec 16, 2016 13:45:49 GMT -5
Yer all making this entirely too complicated. Character level has no impact on gameplay except unlocking bots and weapons for sale. As such I do not think it should be used as a criteria for match making. What you do with that access is far more relevant. Mr. Elo's ranking system is based on pure performance metrics, and does not have to consider variations in access to nor quality of available equipment. In Chess, you have all the pieces and all the potential that your opponent does from the start. In War Robots, you have to play the game for a guaranteed amount of time to be granted access to better equipment and to be able to improve it's quality. A pure Elo system would be flawed for War Robots. The debate here seems to center around us speculating on the best methods to create a hybrid system that combines the performance metrics of Elo systems with intent of the equipment level Hanger Score system. Elo works, I'm not going to bother trying to improve that side of the equation. Here's how I would do Hanger Scores, feel free to nit-pick me to death: Weight Class Multiplier: Light Bot = Bot Level*1, Medium Bot = Bot Level*1.5, Heavy Bot = Bot Level*2 WSP/Gold Bot = (Bot Level+1)*Weight Class Multiplier Light Weapon Slot (WS) = +1, Medium WS = +2, Heavy WS = +3, Each Special Ability = +1 Each Weapon Level = +1 Gold/WSP Weapon = Weapon Level+5 Every bot in your active hanger counts towards your Hanger Score. There is a huge tactical difference between having 1 bot in your hanger versus 5. correct me if I'm wrong, but this would make Gepards the lowest scoring good bots to use, right?  |
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[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
Aurora Clan Moderator
Posts: 729
Karma: 556
Platform: Android
Clan: leader of Aurora Nova [AurN]
League: Gold
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bishop from Aliens, although WALL-E is a close second
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Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Dec 16, 2016 13:49:22 GMT -5
What if you scored all bots purely on hitpoints, speed, and weapon slots, regardless of class? With an additional bump for abilities, of course.
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Dec 16, 2016 13:54:01 GMT -5
What if you scored all bots purely on hitpoints, speed, and weapon slots, regardless of class? With an additional bump for abilities, of course. patton setups new meta? |
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Post by Muhlakai on Dec 16, 2016 14:00:46 GMT -5
Throw in Hangar average instead of highest bot, and now you have a system that doesn't punish you nearly as hard for not knowing the exact science of upgrades with plenty o' spreadsheets handy. Hangar total, maybe. Not average. ...or I'll run a 12/12 Rhino with weaponless Cossacks. Then again, if it's total maybe I restart and forget the Cossacks. #SingleSlotMMHax |
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[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
Aurora Clan Moderator
Posts: 729
Karma: 556
Platform: Android
Clan: leader of Aurora Nova [AurN]
League: Gold
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bishop from Aliens, although WALL-E is a close second
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Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Dec 16, 2016 14:06:42 GMT -5
What if you scored all bots purely on hitpoints, speed, and weapon slots, regardless of class? With an additional bump for abilities, of course. patton setups new meta? Those 4 weapon slots should push it up, though. |
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Dec 16, 2016 14:06:55 GMT -5
Throw in Hangar average instead of highest bot, and now you have a system that doesn't punish you nearly as hard for not knowing the exact science of upgrades with plenty o' spreadsheets handy. Hangar total, maybe. Not average. ...or I'll run a 12/12 Rhino with weaponless Cossacks. Then again, if it's total maybe I restart and forget the Cossacks. #SingleSlotMMHax just run a 1 slot 12/12 midranger account. No enemy will be able to reach you or damage you significantly, as you will take over half of their health per salvo regardless of the bot they are using. |
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Dec 16, 2016 14:07:50 GMT -5
Those 4 weapon slots should push it up, though. it has low HP, low speed, no ability and is a silver bot. It is also an already effective bot to use. |
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Dec 16, 2016 14:17:59 GMT -5
What if you scored all bots purely on hitpoints, speed, and weapon slots, regardless of class? With an additional bump for abilities, of course. Does not create a filter for gold/wsp bots, tactical difference in access to equipment. |
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Dec 16, 2016 14:57:36 GMT -5
What if you scored all bots purely on hitpoints, speed, and weapon slots, regardless of class? With an additional bump for abilities, of course. Does not create a filter for gold/wsp bots, tactical difference in access to equipment. if every bot/weapon were penalised in order to be completely fair with all the silver bots and weapons out there, there would be no point in getting said gold and WSP bots/weapons until high gold/max tier. |
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Dec 16, 2016 15:02:08 GMT -5
It's a balanced *ratio* of penalties that I'm going for. I was counter-pointing GoodInk's suggestion because his idea is the worst form of your objection.
Bear with me for a bit, I'm going to do the maths for some sample meta bots so we can all see the relation of the numbers generated. I hate simple math by the way, give me trig any day. I may be slow but I get there.
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Dec 16, 2016 15:33:24 GMT -5
N00b Cossack Gau-T L2/2
Light (*1) Level 2 [+2]
Medium WS [+2]
SA Jump [+1]
Weap Lvl 2 [+2]
Total HS: 7
"Sweet spot" TMGep L4/6
(Light (*1) Level 4 (+ 1 (gold)) [+5]
Light WS * 3 [+3]
Weap Lvl (6+5(wsp))*3 [+33]
Total HS: 41
Pinata Patton, Silver M4/8
(Medium (*1.5) Level 4) [+6]
Light WS * 4 [+4]
Weap Lvl 8*4 [+32]
Total HS: 42
Plasma Garadeth, Silver M6/6
(Medium (*1.5) Level 6(+1 (wsp)) [+10.5]
Light WS * 2 [+2]
Medium WS [+1]
Weap Lvl (6+5(wsp))*3 [+33]
SA Shield (+1)
Total HS: 47.5
"Clubber's" TMGep L1/12
(Light (*1) Level 1 (+ 1 (gold)) [+2]
Light WS * 3 [+3]
Weap Lvl (12+5(wsp))*3 [+51]
Total HS: 56
Death Button Griffin, Gold H6/10
(Heavy (*2) Level 6) [+12]
Light WS * 2 [+2]
Medium WS * 2 [+4]
Weap Lvl 10*2 [+20]
Weap Lvl (10+5(gold))*2 [+30]
SA Jump [+1]
Total HS: 69
F U Lancelot (Orks/Thunder), Top H12/12
(Heavy (*2) Level 12) [+24]
Medium WS * 2 [+4]
Heavy WS [+3]
Weap Lvl (12+5(gold))*2 [+34]
Weap Lvl 12 [+12]
SA Shield [+1]
SA Dash [+1]
Total HS: 79
Plasma Death Button Rhino, Top H12/12
(Heavy (*2) Level 12) [+24]
Light WS * 2 [+2]
Medium WS * 2 [+4]
Weap Lvl (12+5(gold/wsp))*4 [+68]
SA Rage [+1]
Total SA: 99
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 19:49:53 GMT -5
Hot bot probs - allowed to play with mostly inferior bots. Also penalized, and put up against bots and weapons at least 2-3 higher. Theres very little middle ground. To often the extreme ends
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2016 10:51:07 GMT -5
It would be great if the HANGER SCORE, BOT SCORE & TIER were SHOWN & incorperated into this Fantastic game.
This WILL take ALL the mystery and ABSOLUTELY NECCESARY research out of it, for ALL members (new & old).
K(eep) I(t) S(imple) S(eriously)
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Post by Deadalready on Dec 17, 2016 23:29:54 GMT -5
We got a kudos from the War Robots Facebook page! Hopefully we can gain a few happy members from this  |
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Post by Strayed on Dec 17, 2016 23:34:01 GMT -5
Almost 60 people joined up today. Usually it's around 2 or 3.
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Post by ShutUpAndSmokeMyWeed on Dec 18, 2016 0:21:58 GMT -5
Almost 60 people joined up today. Usually it's around 2 or 3. Not quite true, 79 people signed up today instead of the usual 5-15. But still good nonetheless, now let's just hope they stick around. You know who you are |
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Post by Ѕπλκε✵Σψεs on Dec 18, 2016 1:10:30 GMT -5
We have punch and pie...
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