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Post by easystrider on Apr 3, 2024 19:21:22 GMT -5
I personally am overall on Predatorâs side in this issue I think. Manni seems to have had good intentions and I appreciate his passion with everything, but he seems to not be aware that a communications breakdown is what caused the petition to fall through, not just Pixonic (at least as I see it). Manni talked about how he negotiated the ban with Pixonic and how his ban video was not meant to coincide with his petition video like everyone already knows this, when according to Predator this was not the case. Predator provided us with a timeline of events and some screenshots in his video, while Manni just wanted us to listen to him, so I am inclined to believe Predator. This sentiment is reflected in Predatorâs new video too, with Predator pointing out how Manni seems to think we can read his mind or something. ... Heh, I'm slightly more on Manni's side on this. However, I'm hundred percent with you on last two paragraphs. The way Manni told the story of his ban is he got banned, but then kept negotiating with Pixonic and Pixonic did not make it official until that last day. So was he banned or not? Well, yes and no. Depends on how you want to look at it. So to me it's not an issue if Manni wrote to somebody "I got banned" a day earlier and chose not to share the news with most. Even more importantly, it's irrelevant. If the ban was not because of the petition, they should have went ahead with it. If it was due to petition, then they should have backed it just to show they are not intimidated by Pixonic. In other words, petition should not have been delayed due to Manni's ban in any case. So predator's big "got ya!" moment is arguing semantics to an irrelevant point. And he got similar feedback in some most liked comments under his first video, but he chose not to respond. I could go on further picking apart predator's comments just as he did Manni's, but there's no point. When somebody is that upset it's no longer about setting the record straight, further discussion is just escalating it all. I will say this though, I'm with predator on two points. First, Manni had no right to announce to the world that he worked with other content creators on the petition and they backed out. To make it even worse, he implied that he did it to force them to "make a stand". That's horse 「dookie」, it accomplishes nothing but burns bridges. Second, no reason to drag into it predator's video about War Robots balance. He didn't watch the whole thing, didn't understand the point predator was making and ended up just needlessly pouring more gasoline on the fire. With that being said, this is also where I'm getting off. I will no longer be posting links to or watching any further "explanation" videos. Before the latest video I was going to post that even though mistakes were made on all sides I thought that everybody (except Pixonic of course) acted in good faith. Now it seems to be getting beyond that.
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Post by munkeeee on Apr 3, 2024 20:43:50 GMT -5
Long story short, he said she said we will never know.
Besides, you think pix is gonna give a flip about a petition?
Doubtful.
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Post by J.u.n.k.M.a.l.e. on Apr 3, 2024 23:53:01 GMT -5
Adding my own thoughts
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Post by gus169 on Apr 4, 2024 5:42:44 GMT -5
Thanks for offering another perspective Junk.
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Post by 079 on Apr 4, 2024 13:58:07 GMT -5
easystrider I get agreeing with Manni on a conceptual/moral level, but the main reason I am ultimately with Predator is because I think the petition fell through not for those reasons but because of the communications breakdown that surrounded its intended release date. I just watched Wolfblood7 ’s video on the matter and he echos this sentiment of Manni not telling people what is going on and just wanting the petition to be posted, no questions asked. Yeah him getting banned did not really matter, but the other creators did not know this, so I think them being hesitant was understandable. I also watched J.u.n.k.M.a.l.e. ’s video on this and I gotta he makes some great points about how Manni has been growing more distant from the community as of late and how it makes sense that he was more willing to post the petition than the other creators since he had nothing to loose (having been banned). Definitely give both videos a watch I would say, outside perspectives are always good and they are much more concise Manni or Predator. You know, we were wondering why Adrian and AD Gaming did not comment on this whole thing initially, but with the way it turned out it seems laying low was the right move in hindsight. It is like Predator said, Adrian’s humility does him a surprising amount of good despite it making him look shill-y at times. But yeah, this is about all I want to say on this, just wanted to shout out Wolfblood and Junkmail for giving some nice perspectives.
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Post by Endobot on Apr 4, 2024 15:08:34 GMT -5
I suspect everyone`s account is somewhat of a "version" of the truth. A couple of things that I don`t get though; That the reply to the question was "we would strongly advise against it" but it`s denied that the question was "can we publish the petition" and it certainly doesn`t seem like an appropriate response to "why did Manni get Banned". The other creators wanted to delay publishing once they realised Manni got banned which obviously sounds like they were never going to proceed with it (and now haven`t) if the reprisals from Pixonic were going to be so severe - surely something which they could have reasonably expected and foresaw from the very start? And, if they did, and were happy to continue and accept the possibility of such reprisals, why the need to delay?
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Post by easystrider on Apr 4, 2024 15:43:13 GMT -5
Yeah him getting banned did not really matter, but the other creators did not know this, so I think them being hesitant was understandable. If you and I were working together on such project and I found out you were being banned, I'd think I'd take your side first. Because possibility of you using this situation to take advantage of me would have been more preferable than you being banned in retaliation and me not having your back in this situation. As for other creators not speaking out, it makes sense. The ones that asked Pixonic for permission would obviously prefer not to explain their motivation. Others probably think they are already well represented and adding their own videos/statements would further escalate it.
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Post by easystrider on Apr 4, 2024 16:35:17 GMT -5
You've gotta be KIDDING me... Now Pixonic has their own video with their side of the story (!!!): Just kidding. Edit: Last 15 seconds made me laugh very hard.
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Post by Method Games[YT] on Apr 4, 2024 19:59:22 GMT -5
You've gotta be KIDDING me... Now Pixonic has their own video with their side of the story (!!!): Just kidding. Edit: Last 15 seconds made me laugh very hard. I was wondering if this creator was included in the petition, oh and the creator that used to post hacking vids as well
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Post by tabbylion on Apr 5, 2024 8:59:00 GMT -5
easystrider I get agreeing with Manni on a conceptual/moral level, but the main reason I am ultimately with Predator is because I think the petition fell through not for those reasons but because of the communications breakdown that surrounded its intended release date. I just watched Wolfblood7 ’s video on the matter and he echos this sentiment of Manni not telling people what is going on and just wanting the petition to be posted, no questions asked. Yeah him getting banned did not really matter, but the other creators did not know this, so I think them being hesitant was understandable. I also watched J.u.n.k.M.a.l.e. ’s video on this and I gotta he makes some great points about how Manni has been growing more distant from the community as of late and how it makes sense that he was more willing to post the petition than the other creators since he had nothing to loose (having been banned). Definitely give both videos a watch I would say, outside perspectives are always good and they are much more concise Manni or Predator. You know, we were wondering why Adrian and AD Gaming did not comment on this whole thing initially, but with the way it turned out it seems laying low was the right move in hindsight. It is like Predator said, Adrian’s humility does him a surprising amount of good despite it making him look shill-y at times. But yeah, this is about all I want to say on this, just wanted to shout out Wolfblood and Junkmail for giving some nice perspectives. It was more than just a communication problem. Danny stated in his livestream that Manni misrepresented the situation by stating that he worked with all the creators on the petition. Many content creators never knew of the petition and received backlash for not participating. There was never a consensus of the majority but a small group. The group had consensus on when to release the petition. The group found out Banni had left out an important detail to his personal predicament. The petition no longer had the consensus of the group. Group needed time to get their head around their situation. Banni released petition without the group’s approval. A general doesn’t need approval from his soldiers because his soldiers are supposed to follow. He has no soldiers! He is not even in charge! The assault fails! No reinforcements ever arrived!
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Post by Method Games[YT] on Apr 5, 2024 16:08:53 GMT -5
^^ LoL at "Banni" ^^
At this point, I think the horse should stay dead and buried, I noticed the "creators" are trying to do the same but I can't help feel there is some bad blood hanging in the air now.
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Post by Wolfblood7 on Apr 5, 2024 16:58:46 GMT -5
^^ LoL at "Banni" ^^ At this point, I think the horse should stay dead and buried, I noticed the "creators" are trying to do the same but I can't help feel there is some bad blood hanging in the air now. Don't see a way forward for Manni now. He's isolated himself from all the other creators.
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Post by T34 on Apr 6, 2024 6:22:00 GMT -5
Irrespective of Manni’s shortcomings, probable axe to grind with Pix, him being banned, and using other content creators for the purpose of advancing his cause during his bleak predicament has noting to do with the quality of the petition. Tying those together is a logically fallacious argument. A Red herring. I’d argue, the fear of Pix was the reason but to declare that would expose that the allegiances of the the content creators trumps their assessment of the state of the game.
Predator’s response wasn’t good. Got very personal and it was hard to watch to the extent of not finishing it. He should delete it. Junkmale and Wolfblood7 handled it better.
Just for the record, I am not on Manni’s or Pedator’s side. This thing had a very little chance of delivering change and it ended up being botched big time. Slam dunk Pix.
I think we also need to remember, our subjective sentiments of the state of the game may not reflect reality. Steamchart numbers look very good, pix is pumping out content at break neck pace and is not backpedaling. On the contrary, they are cutting rewards to F2Ps suggesting all is good and the players can be fleeced more. That is perhaps one of the main reasons of them advising not to proceed with the petition.
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Max Bacon
Destrier
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Post by Max Bacon on Apr 6, 2024 7:05:48 GMT -5
Irrespective of Manniâs shortcomings, probable axe to grind with Pix, him being banned, and using other content creators for the purpose of advancing his cause during his bleak predicament has noting to do with the quality of the petition. Tying those together is a logically fallacious argument. A Red herring. Iâd argue, the fear of Pix was the reason but to declare that would expose that the allegiances of the the content creators trumps their assessment of the state of the game. Predatorâs response wasnât good. Got very personal and it was hard to watch to the extent of not finishing it. He should delete it. Junkmale and Wolfblood7 handled it better. Just for the record, I am not on Manniâs or Pedatorâs side. This thing had a very little chance of delivering change and it ended up being botched big time. Slam dunk Pix. I think we also need to remember, our subjective sentiments of the state of the game may not reflect reality. Steamchart numbers look very good, pix is pumping out content at break neck pace and is not backpedaling. On the contrary, they are cutting rewards to F2Ps suggesting all is good and the players can be fleeced more. That is perhaps one of the main reasons of them advising not to proceed with the petition. I watched the first 36 minute Predator petition reaction video. The guy seemed really emotionally battered. I was going to watch his petition reaction reaction reaction video, until it showed up as 42 minutes in length. Nah bro, not going to bite*
As to content at a breakneck pace - yes, saleable content is coming out much faster than I remember from '17-'20. But where are the new maps? There should have been 4 new maps during my hiatus. Instead there are just two. We also lost that capture the flag mode, what ever it was called. But fuel for the OP->nerf cycle, heck yeah...
Just to stick it to Pix for April, I'm playing a smurf account that gathered cobwebs from '19 until April 1 and leaving the main account alone. "Baby Smurf" got dropped from either high Diamond or low Expert (can't remember which) to Bronze 3. And let me tell you, it's ugly down there. So many obvious NPCs, and wait times for matches were much longer than I remember in the past. On the other hand, it's nice to smoke the occasional Tier 4 bot with a gunship Griffin Get up into Silver and it's much better. I expect Gold to be more of a 「dookie」 show, with more and more folks buying serious power or seriously tanking. Like the one fellow with 8000 victories, a near full meta hangar, and only in Gold 3. His 23k total damage pretty much insured we took the L that game.
* I'll take a look at it, if someone could point me to where in the video Predator PROVES that Manni called him a sellout, specifically.
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Post by 0megaman on Apr 6, 2024 11:11:56 GMT -5
I just got back from over-seas to find this fine thread trucking along still Regardless of the disposition of Manni, drama, nonsense, and misc BS.... Assuming the collected petition response data is available to all/any of the (other) content creators, there is nothing at this point to really prevent the petition from moving forward. Any of those involved can take a step back, wait a bit, re-group (without Manni), and move it forward. Its a good petition, and the argument that its somehow tainted isnt valid, Manni might be 'tainted', but the petition responses arent. Conflating those 2 things wouldnt be honest. All of this played right into Pigsonics hands, the petition has been killed. All of it is convenient, too convenient IMHO. It was a PR nightmare for them (as it should be). After watching certain content creators videos, IMHO the entire thing SMELLS of collusion/collaboration/conspiracy with certain parties on both sides of the fence. I dont know what Manni did or didnt do with the other content creators, but what I've heard, I wouldnt put past certain other content creators as well (to be clear, all present company excepted ). I honestly believe some of them were never serious about it to begin with, and didnt actually believe it would take off, but when it did, they sabotaged it and anything/anyone in the way. Certain 'responses' just arent adding up, and Pigsonic clearly knew WAY too much about it early on, which means at least one person surreptitiously threw the entire effort under the bus. What they do now will tell the real story... Its the difference between real principle, and damage control. Never underestimate the power of corruption.
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Post by munkeeee on Apr 6, 2024 12:09:48 GMT -5
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS
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Post by Cdr. Crimmins on Apr 6, 2024 12:37:55 GMT -5
The petition (which I did sign) was never going to matter IMHO.
Pix has never listened to any feedback. petition, boycott or outcry with the exception of those weird bubble guns that followed you around.
My guess there is that they were too bugged for even Pix to release, regardless of feedback.
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Post by 0megaman on Apr 8, 2024 19:49:30 GMT -5
SOOOooo.... the petition in of itself is still viable from any rational perspective.
Which big name YT'er will be the first to pick up the baton and run with the petition? (the real one, not pigsonic sanitized BS)
How long is long enough for it all to cool down to do so?
Are a few of them now staying quiet in hopes that the petition will go away?
Who will walk the walk, instead of talking the talk?
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Post by J.u.n.k.M.a.l.e. on Apr 8, 2024 22:38:49 GMT -5
I'm more optimistic about petitions (all of them) than most. It's not entirely in our hands, or entirely in theirs; at some point, they will need good PR for something, or to change the public narrative, and when they do, making some changes the community wants is an easy win.
If I thought that the efficacy of petitions hinged entirely on boycott threats or better angels, then yeah, I'd be cynical. But we live in a complex world.
Think about it like any other relationship. You've been dating a girl for a few months and she keeps dropping hints about how she's sure like to go to Paris.
You think to yourself: You muh be crazy. Girl, you lucky I take you to Red Robin for French Fries, and you think I'm gonna take you to Paris? You muh be crazy. How'm I gonna look to spend $10k to take your country backside to Paris so you can mispronounce things to their faces? You MUH be crazy. I'm fixin' to stop paying for your hair appointments because I think the chemicals are making you dizzy. ... talkin' about Paris. You muh be crazy.
Couple weeks later, she comes home from work, takes off her earrings, goes to the bathroom and asks, "Why is my sister's bathing suit hanging over the shower curtain rod?"
"Baby, there's no time for that, you need to be putting all your energy into packing for PARIS!"
I'm just sayin'... the world is a complicated place and you can find yourself in situations where things that didn't make sense, suddenly make perfect sense.
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Post by 0megaman on Apr 9, 2024 9:20:01 GMT -5
Heh, if my wife saw my sis-in-laws bathing suit in our shower, she'd probably die of laughter As I said before, what the big CC's do (or dont do) now or in a few weeks to come, will tell the real story. I think I have an idea of what Manni was trying to pull off, IF I'm correct, that wasnt the right way to do things. However, I still believe some one threw the whole effort under the bus before that, and the parallel nonsense with Manni became a convenient happenstance to massively deflect from the actual goal, the petition. IMHO, Pigsonic had all the inside info they needed (from both sides of the fence) to position the whole situation to their advantage, maybe it was just dumb luck, but so far its worked. Pigsonic probably viewed the petition as a lose-lose for them. Take it seriously, they have to spend some time and resources fixing things (even incrementally), that goes against their short-term-monetary-gain strategy. Dont take it seriously, and do their usual F'off to the community, they look even worse than they did before. Thats a whole new level of bad PR. Some of the big CC's are in a tough position. If theyre going to talk about caring for the community, and doing noble things, they better step up to the plate. If they dont, then that likely tells ya everything ya need to know about them.
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Post by Typhon Johnny on Apr 9, 2024 9:20:07 GMT -5
Did we notice that the content creators started getting a piece of webstore sales after they fed Manny to the wolves.
What did yall sign? You work for pixo now. Cant deny that shiz no more.
Hard lesson for Manny.... Taking the lead..... Sure different personalities, concerns, timing etc. But you can bet one of the group used the opportunity to gain advantage over the others... Be an informant, cut a deal and blow up the whole thing.
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Max Bacon
Destrier
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Post by Max Bacon on Apr 9, 2024 12:28:51 GMT -5
Did we notice that the content creators started getting a piece of webstore sales after they fed Manny to the wolves. What did yall sign? You work for pixo now. Cant deny that shiz no more. Hard lesson for Manny.... Taking the lead..... Sure different personalities, concerns, timing etc. But you can bet one of the group used the opportunity to gain advantage over the others... Be an informant, cut a deal and blow up the whole thing. I think that being able to get a cut of webstore sales slightly preceded Manni's loss of his mentor account. But not by much.
I just love how some content creators start all their videos reminding us that we can buy robo-coins off the webstore, and make sure they get a little cut...
Let's GO!!
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Post by easystrider on Apr 11, 2024 7:19:52 GMT -5
Did we notice that the content creators started getting a piece of webstore sales after they fed Manny to the wolves. Is that a fact? Sources? If true, that's a big piece of the puzzle that makes the big picture clearer now. No wonder so many wanted to burry the petition. It was bad for business.
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Post by Method Games[YT] on Apr 11, 2024 9:39:31 GMT -5
Did we notice that the content creators started getting a piece of webstore sales after they fed Manny to the wolves. Is that a fact? Sources? If true, that's a big piece of the puzzle that makes the big picture clearer now. No wonder so many wanted to burry the petition. It was bad for business. As juicy as it sounds, I think the scheme came out slightly before the "wolves" got a taste of Banni's prime cuts (as mentioned above). Either way, time will tell how this incentive might lead to some thinking twice before providing negative feedback on videoes.
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Post by easystrider on Apr 11, 2024 9:57:40 GMT -5
Is that a fact? Sources? If true, that's a big piece of the puzzle that makes the big picture clearer now. No wonder so many wanted to burry the petition. It was bad for business. As juicy as it sounds, I think the scheme came out slightly before the "wolves" got a taste of Banni's prime cuts (as mentioned above). Either way, time will tell how this incentive might lead to some thinking twice before providing negative feedback on videoes. Yea, I didn't have in mind some kind of sinister quid pro quo where they kill the petition for share of sales. It makes the difference because of what you wrote, it provides a financial incentive to be on the "right" side in all this.
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Post by 0megaman on Apr 11, 2024 10:03:22 GMT -5
Either way, time will tell how this incentive might lead to some thinking twice before providing negative feedback on videoes. For all intents and purposes, such an arrangement makes them company representatives in a direct sense. Their content becomes unreliable at best, we've already seen 1 video afterwards where that was evident. Granted, it blew up in their face, but the underlying mentality was apparent. What we'll likely see more of now is a fine line between lies and omissions. Maybe I'm wrong, but I will circle back to the petition... what they do or dont do with it will tell the real story in the end.
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Post by easystrider on Apr 11, 2024 10:17:57 GMT -5
Either way, time will tell how this incentive might lead to some thinking twice before providing negative feedback on videoes. For all intents and purposes, such an arrangement makes them company representatives in a direct sense. Their content becomes unreliable at best, we've already seen 1 video afterwards where that was evident. Granted, it blew up in their face, but the underlying mentality was apparent. What we'll likely see more of now is a fine line between lies and omissions. I must have missed it, which video are you referring to? It's funny how it worked out, isn't it? Content creators were upset because of potential "hate" coming from Manni releasing the petition and also by him forcing them to show where they stand on this. But now they are going to be confronting the same issues without any help from Manni.
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Post by J.u.n.k.M.a.l.e. on Apr 11, 2024 16:33:49 GMT -5
Either way, time will tell how this incentive might lead to some thinking twice before providing negative feedback on videoes. For all intents and purposes, such an arrangement makes them company representatives in a direct sense. Their content becomes unreliable at best, we've already seen 1 video afterwards where that was evident. Granted, it blew up in their face, but the underlying mentality was apparent. What we'll likely see more of now is a fine line between lies and omissions. Maybe I'm wrong, but I will circle back to the petition... what they do or dont do with it will tell the real story in the end. TL/DR: I agree this stresses the parasocial relationship with creators in a way that undermines the value they provide to the community, but note it also undermines the value they provide to Pixo. I did notice some creators have used the phrase "supports the channel" for the store codes, which is tubespeak for "I get a piece of that action." How much that influences them probably depends on the creators, but speaking personally, I've always been pro-money. Official creators are in a tough spot, for sure. If you take the money out of the equation, we (me, you, they) ALL love the game, on one level or another. So it just can't be the case that every positive thing a content creator says about Pixonic is driven by the relationship. But it might also be the case that nothing can be said without the perception that it's colored by that relationship. Which is bad, because I think we do benefit from creators. Maybe not any specific individual creator, but we need theory-testers with the resources to test everything. People who can be courageously stupid in their bot builds and choices knowing we will laugh with them when it's bad and celebrate with them when it's good. Not saying we need them but I think we do benefit from them. In that sense, Pixo might have shot itself in the foot. It managed to win a battle and 4D chess a situation where an angry community eats itself, but that mistrust also undermines the purpose of the creator program. If the creators don't work as an ecosystem to show people what's best about the product, the creators don't serve the purpose intended. It would not shock me if Pixo ended the creator program and told people to just eat off of the back of their dgem commissions.
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Post by 0megaman on Apr 11, 2024 17:01:20 GMT -5
TL/DR: I agree this stresses the parasocial relationship with creators in a way that undermines the value they provide to the community, but note it also undermines the value they provide to Pixo. Indeed. Its inherently self-destructive for both Pigsonic and the big creators. Constantly shilling for the company and avoiding all critical analysis of the game only supports their respective agendas ($$$$), and makes it a fact they cant be trusted. In turn, that destroys trust in the community, which lose respect for the creators, and unsub, etc, that precipitates monetary loss at that end. Quite the vicious circle theyve created. Any of the big creators that say theyre "all about the community", I will label as full of 「dookie」 for now, talk is cheap. When I actually SEE it, then I may change my mind about some of them. I'm not holding my breath (I've got Scotch to drink anyways )
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Post by Method Games[YT] on Apr 11, 2024 17:34:37 GMT -5
Sales must have been hurting with the constant negativity coming from the "top" creator and others (you only had to read the comments from regular players to see the bad sentiments) for Pixonic to come up with this scheme and I think it is a smart move on their part.
Sadly, I feel that it is a slippery slope for creators. The "glass half empty" style creators will need to change tact and move to a half full style delivery if they want to get that reach around from Pixonic. Videos like the ones showing the lousy drop rates from event chests and ultimate schmuck style games will become "Oh I really needed those 500 components to get close to building X" instead of "500 components of a useless bot that has been nerfed anyway".
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