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Post by frunobulax on Feb 20, 2017 12:29:38 GMT -5
Tanking, in the way Strayed describes it, is something that is within the rules set by Pixo and that I have encountered in many other games, but it's something that is damaging to the game and the user experience of other players, so it should be outlawed and Pixo should do something to make it less attractive.
Wikipedia defines cheating as "Cheating is the getting of a reward for ability or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation by dishonest means. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation." Many people here define cheating differently, namely as something that has to break some rule, and that's also how I would have defined cheating, had I not looked it up in Wikipedia. So we might have a discussion about semantics here.
Had Strayed asked "Should Tanking be considered a dishonest tactic, and should Pixo alter the game to prevent it", he might have gotten a near unanimous vote.
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Post by themadmac on Feb 20, 2017 12:29:55 GMT -5
* sigh * Exploiting IS cheating They literally have the same meaning Anyway, for my vote... YES! Exploiting is not cheating. Cheating is bypassing game mechanics in order for you to have an unfair advantage over others, like teleporting and unlimited health. Exactly like for example bypassing the game mechanic of the mm to get an unfair advantage..... wait.... its cheating.
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 20, 2017 12:31:42 GMT -5
A statement made as an ancillary example of a highly debatable stereotype common to ethical and moral debates, also a fallacy of generalization. I meant no offense to any existing scientist types. Soul is a spiritual reference by definition, not a religious one. For full disclosure, I'm an agnostic anarchist with zero interest in politics or religions.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 20, 2017 12:32:57 GMT -5
I take the stance that running a hanger that is more along the lines of what you WANT to run, rather than the most optimal possible, is not smurfing, nor is it akin to seal-clubbing. This is a slippery slope. I like Mediums. If I run all Mediums, am I smurfing because I have heavies that can do more damage in my hanger? Or what if I run one or more lights? If my intent is to be able to focus on roles, is that smurfing?
The caveat for me: The Beacon-Only method... if it is used without any form of damage dealing... that, I can say is honestly in the air for me, as far as what to consider it. But not running bots that are less than the best in your hanger to be able to enjoy faster bots because that is what you like, is not smurfing to me. Just want to make that clear from the get-go.
As far as intentional tanking. Yes it is a blatant disregard for the intent of the developers and is using a feature (leaving the battle) that is meant for situations that happen in which you may need to leave, not as a way to play the game to change your rating to drop down to lower competition. Yes it is a feature. No it is not meant to be used as tankers (ditchers) use it... I am immediately dismissive of posts that use that as a reason to justify the behavior.
Playing Zombie matches is no better: Doing just the bare necessities to be considered not a tanker and then leaving your bot in a corner like a naughty 2 year old is just as sad and is still tanking.
My answers:
Is Tanking (defined as ditching or zombie playing, not smurfing, necessarily) cheating? IDK.
Is it behavior I condone, or want from a team mate, or would ever in any way consider a valid strategy for the game? Not one bit.
Would I like to see the Forum free of guides and instructions of the best ways to game the system? Yes I would.
Would I like to see any mention of it become a bannable offense, to include in depth discussion about it in areas of the forum that do not take away from the point of the wiki and this forum in the first place? No I wouldn't.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 12:35:54 GMT -5
Exploiting is not cheating. Cheating is bypassing game mechanics in order for you to have an unfair advantage over others, like teleporting and unlimited health. Exactly like for example bypassing the game mechanic of the mm to get an unfair advantage..... wait.... its cheating. It's not bybassing, its USING. The game ALLOWS you to tank. Although I'd admit it's not moral to do that, it is simply taking advantage of an exploit that the developers have no addressed not fixed. That is not cheating. If Pix somehow make you unable to tank to fight weaker players that are not 12/12 trident furies, and you somehow made it possible by the modifying of code or by using 3rd party system mods, then it is cheating.
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Post by loren on Feb 20, 2017 12:37:10 GMT -5
For War Robots only, I vote that tanking is not cheating. If tanking is cheating, won't that label (and any future penalties) also apply to noobs? They routinely do the same thing - not drop down, play ineptly, and leave after a bot is killed. How does one draw a distinction between noobs and experienced players' unseen motivations although the effect is similar? The difference here is the intention. And we aren't Pixonic, I just want to know what the forum thinks of tanking and apply forum rules to discussion and users of it if we make a consensus, not to the actual game. Ah... if your intent was to limit free speech then just come out and say it.
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Post by themadmac on Feb 20, 2017 12:44:21 GMT -5
Exactly like for example bypassing the game mechanic of the mm to get an unfair advantage..... wait.... its cheating. It's not bybassing, its USING. The game ALLOWS you to tank. Although I'd admit it's not moral to do that, it is simply taking advantage of an exploit that the developers have no addressed not fixed. That is not cheating. If Pix somehow make you unable to tank to fight weaker players that are not 12/12 trident furies, and you somehow made it possible by the modifying of code or by using 3rd party system mods, then it is cheating. Takeing advantage of an exploit is literally the definition cheating. I think you may be confusing hacking with cheating. While all hacking is cheating not all cheating is hacking.
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Post by Dejnov on Feb 20, 2017 12:52:43 GMT -5
Sorry, I forgot about mentioning that. It means that we will be taking the same policy towards tanking as if it were cheating. Take a look here. war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/87/updated-code-conductWith this, how to guides trying to goad others into hard tanking will be met with bans. Users of hard tanking will be permabanned. All of this is quite severe, which is why I wanted to see what the majority of the community thinks. It is quite frankly past time for us as the mods/admins to deal with this. Specifically, the difference here is the intention, if it's being discussed in an informative aspect, it will be allowed, but if it's intentionally and maliciously attempting to get others to join in as well it will be removed. For now, posts and threads on soft tanking such as beacon capping will not be affected, as they are more akin to old sealclubbing than an actual tactic meant to exploit the game. If sealclubbing was not a bannable offense and was allowed than tanking should be allowed. Personally both are vile disgusting habits that create a noxious play environment... and both stole gold from other players. Right now the only reason people are up in arms about the new matchmaker and the tanking crap is because it's happening to the experienced player base (who visits this forum and pays attention) as opposed to the newbies exclusively. I played for months working up from a newbie to a mid range player and had gold stolen from me by 5 hangar Gep clans on a regular basis. It didn't matter whether they were on my side or not, when they were in the game they took all the gold. Right now the tankers do it also, but more dispersed through the food chain so that it hits everyone fairly evenly. In fact, with the removal of matchmaker penalties for workshop bots, junior players have a stronger time of actually playing a young hangar and getting their fair share of gold (with just Carnages, Griffins, and Rhinos). The old system of clubbing would never have allowed this. You either got 「grape」 by Gep hangars or upgraded to heavies and premium bots and got placed with potentially top tier hangars. Also, all this whining about medium and light bots being obsolete is utter bull「dookie」. Those bots do less damage/per bot compared to heavies and will naturally gravitate to lower tiers if played continuously. You can run them just fine. What you can't do is quick switch your hangar to regularly run different tiers (like both Gold and Silver in the prior MM). Small loss to make sure that players aren't stealing my gold... b/c the new matchmaker gives me a fighting chance whereas the prior one guaranteed that 'seals' like myself never saw gold. Dejnov.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 12:53:22 GMT -5
It's not bybassing, its USING. The game ALLOWS you to tank. Although I'd admit it's not moral to do that, it is simply taking advantage of an exploit that the developers have no addressed not fixed. That is not cheating. If Pix somehow make you unable to tank to fight weaker players that are not 12/12 trident furies, and you somehow made it possible by the modifying of code or by using 3rd party system mods, then it is cheating. Takeing advantage of an exploit is literally the definition cheating. I think you may be confusing hacking with cheating. While all hacking is cheating not all cheating is hacking. Hacking is literally cheating in a game. Cheating is a game can only be accomplished by hacking. I think we have different definitions of hacking, cheating and exploiting. For me, hacking and cheating are the same thing. Exploiting is not cheating, but taking an advantage of a problem that is not fixed yet. If Pix decides to not allow you to tank (I don't know how they can do that without putting extreme penalties), then tanking will be useless.
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Post by loren on Feb 20, 2017 12:53:45 GMT -5
It's not bybassing, its USING. The game ALLOWS you to tank. Although I'd admit it's not moral to do that, it is simply taking advantage of an exploit that the developers have no addressed not fixed. That is not cheating. If Pix somehow make you unable to tank to fight weaker players that are not 12/12 trident furies, and you somehow made it possible by the modifying of code or by using 3rd party system mods, then it is cheating. Takeing advantage of an exploit is literally the definition cheating. I think you may be confusing hacking with cheating. While all hacking is cheating not all cheating is hacking. Droping your rank (tanking) is not an exploit, it is a function of the new beloved MM system. There are no checks or added coding to reduce it. If Pix comes out with some special code to limit/stop it then it would be a different story if a player found a work around. There is nothing being exploited. If and when Pix does decide to do something about it then it may be considered an exploit. Until then it is just player opinion.
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 20, 2017 12:56:56 GMT -5
Ah... if your intent was to limit free speech then just come out and say it. This fallacy of relevance is so common it's instantly irritating to me. Do not compare an administrator's attempts of create standards of behavior towards acts of fascism. "Free speech" is a dangerous and distracting argument that contributes nothing but conflict to the subject at hand. <End of Line>
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Post by buzzard on Feb 20, 2017 13:01:38 GMT -5
I'm a little confused here. You are not really asking whether we feel tanking is cheating. Rather, you are asking if we should set a forum policy without telling us the impact our decision will have. If we as a forum declare tanking to be cheating, what is the outcome? Does this mean all discussion of tanking is banned? Topics like the how to guide would be locked or removed? People complaining of tanking would be moved to the rant section always? We all jump on and shame any tankers we see? What exactly does it mean to have official forum view that tanking is cheating? I ask because this strikes me as one of those grey areas where wether we feel or even know something is wrong, being able to discuss it has value. Look at Hacking. Yes, hacking to steal data is wrong. Yet people will do it. Some will do it for unethical purposes. Others will do it to find the flaws in a programs and report those flaws in the hopes of creating a better system. Look at the MIT students who figured out how to hack the Massachusetts Transit Authority Charlie cards. The students did it to point out a flaw not to get free rides. Though there were problems with that case, the end result was a better system that had one less expliot. Here, many of us like the intellectual excercise of suggesting new match making methods. In order to do that, knowing how people tank, why they tank, and what the outcome is, can be beneficial. Would such discussions be squashed if the official policy is that tanking is cheating? Would this lead to supression of information that would lead to a better MM? So really, what exactly does it mean if the official forum policy is that tanking is cheating? Sorry, I forgot about mentioning that. It means that we will be taking the same policy towards tanking as if it were cheating. Take a look here. war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/87/updated-code-conductWith this, how to guides trying to goad others into hard tanking will be met with bans. Users of hard tanking will be permabanned. All of this is quite severe, which is why I wanted to see what the majority of the community thinks. It is quite frankly past time for us as the mods/admins to deal with this. Specifically, the difference here is the intention, if it's being discussed in an informative aspect, it will be allowed, but if it's intentionally and maliciously attempting to get others to join in as well it will be removed. For now, posts and threads on soft tanking such as beacon capping will not be affected, as they are more akin to old sealclubbing than an actual tactic meant to exploit the game. While I am very strongly against tanking, I dont think discussion should be shut down in the forums. People who want to do it will do it (until Pix figures out a way to shut it down). People will find the info some how. At least if there is discussion on the boards, potential tankers will be able to see that many in the community are against it.
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Post by boomsplat on Feb 20, 2017 13:01:42 GMT -5
I don't think there is a rule to forbid dropping your damage/performance rating. If so, we would be locked into running our highest performance line up every single match and Pixo allows us to customize/change our line ups for any match. If Pixo allows you to enter a match with 1 bot without weps although you can field a 12/12 five slot line up, then I'm assuming it is allowable by their game rules....try to run a squad battle by yourself - you can't because the game rule doesn't allow it anymore since they put in squad rewards.
So I don't think tanking or ditching is cheating, just annoying. It has become annoying enough to erode the quality of the game so I'm assuming that is why we will see Pixo address it somehow. Just like clubbing was annoying and causing the game experience to be diminished Pixo addressed that....so I'm not exactly thinking what they implement will be a perfect solution but will put in more restrictions in order to earn rewards for performance.
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Post by ΜØØSE on Feb 20, 2017 13:02:22 GMT -5
If the objective of the game was to capture and hold beacons, why the hell are there light bots. Why should the stalker and the cossack exist? Cmon, DA. You know this one. It's a team objective. Capping and keeping needs various roles from each player at various times. You adapt as the match plays out, and it contributes to the team win. Unfortunately, some would rather check out as it plays out.
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Post by ΜØØSE on Feb 20, 2017 13:07:20 GMT -5
Takeing advantage of an exploit is literally the definition cheating. I think you may be confusing hacking with cheating. While all hacking is cheating not all cheating is hacking. Droping your rank (tanking) is not an exploit, it is a function of the new beloved MM system. There are no checks or added coding to reduce it. If Pix comes out with some special code to limit/stop it then it would be a different story if a player found a work around. There is nothing being exploited. If and when Pix does decide to do something about it then it may be considered an exploit. Until then it is just player opinion. This is like me saying that getting in my car and doing doughnuts in your front lawn is a function of my car. There is no mechanism to stop it, so it's okay and just your opinion.
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Post by loren on Feb 20, 2017 13:07:28 GMT -5
Ah... if your intent was to limit free speech then just come out and say it. This fallacy of relevance is so common it's instantly irritating to me. Do not compare an administrator's attempts of create standards of behavior towards acts of fascism. "Free speech" is a dangerous and distracting argument that contributes nothing but conflict to the subject at hand. <End of Line> The administrator wants to create a forum rule on a subject that is not even an exploit. Tanking is and will be an opinion until Pixonic decides to change the code. How you feel about tanking is an opinion and nothing more. If reading posts makes you so upset, perhaps seeking some professional help or taking another dose of Prozac may help.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 20, 2017 13:10:02 GMT -5
The difference here is the intention. And we aren't Pixonic, I just want to know what the forum thinks of tanking and apply forum rules to discussion and users of it if we make a consensus, not to the actual game. Ah... if your intent was to limit free speech then just come out and say it. This forum is about advising new and old players on how to play the game. Not how to game the play. We* want to be a place where verified and/or well discussed methods of playing can be found. Gaming the play does not fall into that criteria. If you want to argue about the free speech aspect of it... then recognize that no one is stopping you from creating a forum, or blog, or whatever, that states your opinion. We are talking about keeping this forum on track. It is no different from not allowing religious or political talk to get out of hand, or heck, to even get started. Freedom of speech is not hindered as we can't stop you from expressing your thoughts in mediums that are for other subjects... but this forum is strictly about the right way to play, as defined by both the rules given by Pixo and by the intent of the rules as they state it. I realize folks will take issue with that, and that's your right. But you should realize that no one is capable of stopping you from taking your crusade to tank to the web in other forums, or sites, or whatever. However, defining what this forum is for and what it considers canon is not inhibiting anyone's freedoms. IMHO. * Note, I am not a Mod nor am I an admin of any kind, yet I have been here since it changed from the old forum on the Wiki, and take a partial ownership of it since it is a community based medium, for us, the community. When i use the term "we" I am using it with that in mind, not as if I had any sort of authority or responsibility for its general existence or maintenance.
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Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 20, 2017 13:10:59 GMT -5
The difference here is the intention. And we aren't Pixonic, I just want to know what the forum thinks of tanking and apply forum rules to discussion and users of it if we make a consensus, not to the actual game. Ah... if your intent was to limit free speech then just come out and say it. Free speech under the First Amendment only means that you are constitutionally protected from government censorship. Communities have always been free to decide what does and does not constitute speech that is acceptable to the community. This is exactly why we have moderators.
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Post by loren on Feb 20, 2017 13:11:17 GMT -5
Droping your rank (tanking) is not an exploit, it is a function of the new beloved MM system. There are no checks or added coding to reduce it. If Pix comes out with some special code to limit/stop it then it would be a different story if a player found a work around. There is nothing being exploited. If and when Pix does decide to do something about it then it may be considered an exploit. Until then it is just player opinion. This is like me saying that getting in my car and doing doughnuts in your front lawn is a function of my car. There is no mechanism to stop it, so it's okay and just your opinion. Depending on what part of the world you live in there is a mechanism to stop it. Here is the USA there are laws to prevent such behavior.
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Post by ΜØØSE on Feb 20, 2017 13:12:06 GMT -5
Takeing advantage of an exploit is literally the definition cheating. I think you may be confusing hacking with cheating. While all hacking is cheating not all cheating is hacking. Hacking is literally cheating in a game. Cheating is a game can only be accomplished by hacking. I think we have different definitions of hacking, cheating and exploiting. For me, hacking and cheating are the same thing. Exploiting is not cheating, but taking an advantage of a problem that is not fixed yet. I respectfully request that you look up the definition of cheating. Twisting the definition does not make this behavior ok.
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Post by ΜØØSE on Feb 20, 2017 13:18:33 GMT -5
This is like me saying that getting in my car and doing doughnuts in your front lawn is a function of my car. There is no mechanism to stop it, so it's okay and just your opinion. Depending on what part of the world you live in there is a mechanism to stop it. Here is the USA there are laws to prevent such behavior. But I was just driving on your lawn. You don't have good access to your front door and no parking. I have the legal right to go to your front door without trespassing. It's not my fault your grass is slick. Unless you specifically make a law I can't drive on your lawn this is okay.
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Post by buzzard on Feb 20, 2017 13:18:41 GMT -5
Strayed/mods, I know you already did get some feedback from pix on this (they called it an exploit). Can you get a more clear answer in your next conversation?
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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 20, 2017 13:20:41 GMT -5
This fallacy of relevance is so common it's instantly irritating to me. Do not compare an administrator's attempts of create standards of behavior towards acts of fascism. "Free speech" is a dangerous and distracting argument that contributes nothing but conflict to the subject at hand. <End of Line> The administrator wants to create a forum rule on a subject that is not even an exploit. Tanking is and will be an opinion until Pixonic decides to change the code. How you feel about tanking is an opinion and nothing more. If reading posts makes you so upset, perhaps seeking some professional help or taking another dose of Prozac may help. Actually, the administrator is soliciting the feedback of the community. If Strayed just wanted to create another forum rule, he'd just do it. Let's not get carried away.
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 20, 2017 13:23:26 GMT -5
The administrator wants to create a forum rule on a subject that is not even an exploit. Tanking is and will be an opinion until Pixonic decides to change the code. How you feel about tanking is an opinion and nothing more. If reading posts makes you so upset, perhaps seeking some professional help or taking another dose of Prozac may help. Your definition of an exploit is also an opinion. Personally insulting me by implying that I have mental issues and need chemical therapy to compensate is just another logical fallacy. I did not insult you in any way, but rather denied your argument as the trap it has always been. The administration is specifically requesting a community discussion to define standards of behavior, which requires also defining the degrees of judgement on the full gradient spectrum of said behavior, regardless of personal definitions of what exploitive behavior truly consists of. In fact, much of the purpose of such a request is to define what is considered unacceptable levels of exploitive behavior. When I stated "end of line" it was because I do not wish to return to this specific subject. In addition to my personal dislike, I also consider this to be deliberately attempting to derail the topic. But you had to make the rookie trolling mistake of calling me crazy. Have a good day.
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Post by boomsplat on Feb 20, 2017 13:30:58 GMT -5
Depending on what part of the world you live in there is a mechanism to stop it. Here is the USA there are laws to prevent such behavior. But I was just driving on your lawn. You don't have good access to your front door and no parking. I have the legal right to go to your front door without trespassing. It's not my fault your grass is slick. Unless you specifically make a law I can't drive on your lawn this is okay. I think you are correct about not having a law against doing donuts or turfing lawns, but you are responsible for the damage you inflict if I file a complaint - and if I file a citizen's complaint or if a police offer sees you doing it (i.e., not just driving up to the front door like your counter example but the original example), the officer would typically cite you for unsafe operation of a vehicle and damage to private property. So while it may not break a specific law, there tends to be consequences for acts that are deemed irresponsible by general society....of course in War Robots, Pixo is the ultimate arbiter of what is acceptable or not because they make the laws.
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Post by loren on Feb 20, 2017 13:34:55 GMT -5
The administrator wants to create a forum rule on a subject that is not even an exploit. Tanking is and will be an opinion until Pixonic decides to change the code. How you feel about tanking is an opinion and nothing more. If reading posts makes you so upset, perhaps seeking some professional help or taking another dose of Prozac may help. Actually, the administrator is soliciting the feedback of the community. If Strayed just wanted to create another forum rule, he'd just do it. Let's not get carried away. Fair enough Dredd77, then I apologize to the Strayed and forum community for my poorly reviewed comment.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 13:35:17 GMT -5
Hacking is literally cheating in a game. Cheating is a game can only be accomplished by hacking. I think we have different definitions of hacking, cheating and exploiting. For me, hacking and cheating are the same thing. Exploiting is not cheating, but taking an advantage of a problem that is not fixed yet. I respectfully request that you look up the definition of cheating. Twisting the definition does not make this behavior ok. Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier or harder. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers), or created by third-party software (a game trainer) or hardware (a cheat cartridge). They can also be realized by exploiting software bugs; this may or may not be considered cheating based on whether the bug is considered common knowledge. Software bugs are very often considered software features and as long as they are common knowledge, it is questionable whether it is cheating. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_video_games
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Post by miatahead on Feb 20, 2017 13:42:29 GMT -5
I'm gonna say no because this is what you all wanted by changing the old mm to this elo system. The old tier'ed mm was set up because it didn't allow sandbagging as much. Clubbers? They don't exist in gold, so they weren't a problem for the game for players that actually *paid* for the game.
Now, you have *paying* players either quitting or no longer paying because they are tired of getting grouped with clubbers. Some fix.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 13:54:06 GMT -5
This often happens when a person sees they no longer have a valid argument... They try to make it about people, villianizing them if necessary. Don't fall into the trap. Guys, no politics.That was a movie quote, I am sorry. I always think everybody knows "Dead Man" cuz its one of my favorites. Apologies to all. Edit: removed 1 post cuz of triggering 2 post cuz it was stupid. Also PM-apology to Deamon Lilith. Good?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 14:15:07 GMT -5
What about asking PIX specifically,if they consider it cheating - yes or no. Its their game. Do we really need another Gep/clubbing rant obsession type thing?
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