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Post by SATmaster728 on Feb 20, 2017 14:21:39 GMT -5
the real issue is that people still do this. All the clubbers had their ability to win so much removed, so they found a new way to do it. Unless Pix can fix every loophole there is, which is impossible, there is no point. As for cheating...i remember a thread about if gepard clubbing is cheating and the same argument happened. This time however, we can relate to back to that and see the issue is not how people do it or if they should it, it is the fact that people do it. The same for real life. No matter what, there will be those who want the easy way, and unlike real life there are no consequences. My point? The people are the issue, as they do these acts.
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Post by ΜØØSE on Feb 20, 2017 14:41:08 GMT -5
Kudos to Pixonic for being interested in our opinions on this. Clearly, they see a problem and are looking carefully to a solution. Rather than knee-jerking a haphazard solution, or worse yet, ignoring it, they are looking at the fundamentals so they can address them effectively. This gives me hope.
Also, kudos to the mod team, because there are a lot of fire in a lot of bellies on this one, myself included. This was not a perfect discussion, but more civil than I expected.
Also, props to anyone who participated reasonably. Which is only me, of course. ?
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Post by ΜØØSE on Feb 20, 2017 14:50:09 GMT -5
But I was just driving on your lawn. You don't have good access to your front door and no parking. I have the legal right to go to your front door without trespassing. It's not my fault your grass is slick. Unless you specifically make a law I can't drive on your lawn this is okay. I think you are correct about not having a law against doing donuts or turfing lawns, but you are responsible for the damage you inflict if I file a complaint - and if I file a citizen's complaint or if a police offer sees you doing it (i.e., not just driving up to the front door like your counter example but the original example), the officer would typically cite you for unsafe operation of a vehicle and damage to private property. So while it may not break a specific law, there tends to be consequences for acts that are deemed irresponsible by general society....of course in War Robots, Pixo is the ultimate arbiter of what is acceptable or not because they make the laws. Yay, someone who gets it! So what should be the consequence for tanking?
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Post by Conflict's Student on Feb 20, 2017 14:57:15 GMT -5
It means that we will be taking the same policy towards tanking as if it were cheating. Take a look here. war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/87/updated-code-conductWith this, how to guides trying to goad others into hard tanking will be met with bans. Users of hard tanking will be permabanned. All of this is quite severe, which is why I wanted to see what the majority of the community thinks. It is quite frankly past time for us as the mods/admins to deal with this. Specifically, the difference here is the intention, if it's being discussed in an informative aspect, it will be allowed, but if it's intentionally and maliciously attempting to get others to join in as well it will be removed. For now, posts and threads on soft tanking such as beacon capping will not be affected, as they are more akin to old sealclubbing than an actual tactic meant to exploit the game. I want to clarify my position: abusing an exploit is obviously cheating... however, open discourse on patently obvious ways to abuse current game mechanics should absolutely take place in this forum. Driving discussion of "how to cheat" underground when cheating methods are self-evident can do nothing to improve the game. In fact it might only delay the developer's recognition of, and response to, exploits as they take place. So yes, IMO as one member of this community: tanking is cheating. But no, as someone who finds great benefit to the community in open discourse about things that take place in and around the game (no matter how unpleasant they might be to admit): please do not ban, lock, or otherwise chill discussion about such exploits. Transparency is an essential ingredient to combating corrupt behaviors. Open discourse (beyond "free speech" which narrowly protects against government corruption) is a hallmark of an effective, self-regulating community. Just one opinion among many in this community... but hopefully you'll recognize its superior value.
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Feb 20, 2017 15:01:15 GMT -5
INTERMISSION
My brothers in peaceful peacefulness...Here are two beautiful red beacons playing a haunting rendition of Metallica's "One" in Dead City...Between rounds.
Because are we not all one? Yes we are. And that is important to the great spirit of peace and happier happynessess.
Just breathtaking isn't it.
You may now resume your heinously low brow word brawling and hurtful banter.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 15:02:05 GMT -5
Tanking is just the same as using 4/9 gepards.
If you're going to ban people for exploiting a system that was unfixed by Pixonic, I think you can ban 1/4 of the people here.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 20, 2017 15:03:33 GMT -5
@ Rock: HAHA I love their covers! Great tie-in too!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 15:06:35 GMT -5
Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ that was nice, enjoyed it. Dude, you liked your own post.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 15:41:22 GMT -5
Omg, I have to listen through the black album twice and once to hardwired now... They couldve least trashed/ ignited the harp. (Disclaimer: kiddin! At least kinda...^^) Tanking is just the same as using 4/9 gepards. If you're going to ban people for exploiting a system that was unfixed by Pixonic, I think you can ban 1/4 of the people here. No need to call for the banhammer (doesnt work for mobile games anyways, imho. Peepz just get a refund n start a new Acc/ look for another game). There are many other options. No change in battlerating if you dont contribute, for example. -500k silver if you ditch 3 times in a row. Getting renamed to pansyunicorn if you ditch 5 times... Etc...
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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 20, 2017 15:49:02 GMT -5
A large number of the "well technically" votes come from new members who have stated that they want to damage pixonic in the wallets or by ruining game play (tanking). I don't feel it is in an officially recognized forum's best interest to allow continued advocacy of a method expressly being forwarded to ruin the game. There are other methods of being allowed to play light/medium hangars and for getting past stuck points. Technically cheating or not, it is strictly counter to the stated purpose of the forum.
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Post by spawnreaper on Feb 20, 2017 15:52:08 GMT -5
I'm a little confused here. You are not really asking whether we feel tanking is cheating. Rather, you are asking if we should set a forum policy without telling us the impact our decision will have. If we as a forum declare tanking to be cheating, what is the outcome? Does this mean all discussion of tanking is banned? Topics like the how to guide would be locked or removed? People complaining of tanking would be moved to the rant section always? We all jump on and shame any tankers we see? What exactly does it mean to have official forum view that tanking is cheating? I ask because this strikes me as one of those grey areas where wether we feel or even know something is wrong, being able to discuss it has value. Look at Hacking. Yes, hacking to steal data is wrong. Yet people will do it. Some will do it for unethical purposes. Others will do it to find the flaws in a programs and report those flaws in the hopes of creating a better system. Look at the MIT students who figured out how to hack the Massachusetts Transit Authority Charlie cards. The students did it to point out a flaw not to get free rides. Though there were problems with that case, the end result was a better system that had one less expliot. Here, many of us like the intellectual excercise of suggesting new match making methods. In order to do that, knowing how people tank, why they tank, and what the outcome is, can be beneficial. Would such discussions be squashed if the official policy is that tanking is cheating? Would this lead to supression of information that would lead to a better MM? So really, what exactly does it mean if the official forum policy is that tanking is cheating? Sorry, I forgot about mentioning that. It means that we will be taking the same policy towards tanking as if it were cheating. Take a look here. war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/87/updated-code-conductWith this, how to guides trying to goad others into hard tanking will be met with bans. Users of hard tanking will be permabanned. All of this is quite severe, which is why I wanted to see what the majority of the community thinks. It is quite frankly past time for us as the mods/admins to deal with this. Specifically, the difference here is the intention, if it's being discussed in an informative aspect, it will be allowed, but if it's intentionally and maliciously attempting to get others to join in as well it will be removed. For now, posts and threads on soft tanking such as beacon capping will not be affected, as they are more akin to old sealclubbing than an actual tactic meant to exploit the game. Why is somthing that isnt against the rules bannable? Its not that im for tanking for exploiting the rules. However pix hasnt done anything but talk about it. How long did they talk about sealclubbing to change mm only to make it worse. If you really want to be a forumn for war robots however everything should be able to be discussed here as long it it follows the present rules. How else are people to talk about future problems in forumn if there a ban clubbing stick waving around. If people wanna talk about tanking you should let them at the very least it gives them away. All its going to do is start a new forumn on 4chan or somewhere else were people arent repressed like some commie country
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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 20, 2017 15:54:11 GMT -5
Wow...and the drama award goes too.... spawnreaper ! Gall Dang Communist!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 16:01:47 GMT -5
This is an inofficial forum that deeply cares about "community" (at least thats my feeling although I am sometimes a bit too offensive). "Community" is a difficult to grasp term, but in the end it sums up to maximizing the fun that can be have with a game, doing this through discussing tactics, giving advice or just fun talk (or whack jokes...). Giving precise advice how to ruin a game for everybody except yourself does not suit that goal, imho. Yes, people will find that info if they look for it. No need to advertise it here. And 4chan is a pretty worse place to point at if youre praising the free world, if you ask me... Edit: look at all the people here giving advice, making vids (I chilled sometimes watching a vid from Jean Luc, Froggy, Yondeh, Stew and many others). The free work the mods do (sending me remarks to shut it ). This should not be tainted. Let 4chan and reddit do it, if they have to. Most small peckers are there anyways.
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 20, 2017 16:04:52 GMT -5
Again, variations of degrees. The most recent clarification is to define "hard tanking" as cheating, ergo threads with obvious intent to encourage such will be moderation worthy. In turn, topics about "soft tanking" would be left as a grey area, as well as informational non-malicious discussions about "hard tanking", and would not be considered for moderation. Also bear in mind, by "moderation", we mean a group of human beings making decisions on a case by case basis, not a bunch of reactionary robots.
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 20, 2017 16:10:13 GMT -5
IMO it is up to the forum members to act respectfully towards one another and not be triggered by something they disagree with personally.
As wiki forum we ought to be able to discuss ALL the available strategies of playing the game, and let individuals choose which playstyle suits them best.
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Feb 20, 2017 16:24:55 GMT -5
Why are you even still here XD I dunno, why are YOU still here?
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 20, 2017 16:49:52 GMT -5
IMO it is up to the forum members to act respectfully towards one another and not be triggered by something they disagree with personally. As wiki forum we ought to be able to discuss ALL the available strategies of playing the game, and let individuals choose which playstyle suits them best. Discuss, fine. Promote? Provide how-to instructions? NO. You have a very dedicated view on this, obviously. I understand that you feel that this is perfectly legit... and in fact, the pro-tankers have inferred that Pix wants us to Tank. Regardless of the plain statement that they made, saying otherwise. It's apparently up to us as a forum community, to allow that. So far, the general consensus is that we do not want to endorse tanking, as it has been defined in this and other threads, as a valid strategy, to newcomers and old hats, alike.
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shakree
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Post by shakree on Feb 20, 2017 16:52:36 GMT -5
In competitive situations, I believe rules are routinely bent to maximise the reward for ones efforts. It's natural to search for that 'extra' edge but when it impacts other players enjoyment of the game it has to be addressed.
It's simply not fair to the other players on both sides when a game is ruined by this behaviour. As a casual player I only have time for a few games each day and to fight through 5 games 4v6 is incredibly frustrating. Don't get me wrong, I still fight as hard as I can since alls fair in love and war but it gets tiresome.
Breaking current rules? No.
Should it be be addressed? Yes.
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Post by soulcoffr on Feb 20, 2017 16:58:03 GMT -5
Yes, it's cheating and shouldn't be sanctioned by this community. It's playing the game in a manner that was not intended by its creators. As evidenced by the fact that Pixonic is working on a way to diminish this activity.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 17:05:43 GMT -5
Even if its not cheating, to me its like walking a batter, or taking a knee. That's not how my pop, grandma, uncle, and coaches taught me to play. Even if they get you out at first, you still run full out, hit the base, and curve of to the right and slow down. Ain't over till its over.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 17:13:32 GMT -5
Yeah. And thats another point. Blame is on Pix and they better sort this out FAST, bc to be honest I can understand tankers more than the Gep Clubbers of the old days (which, tbh were a nuisance in one out of ten games maybe - tankers by now appear nearly every game. Both those that ditch and the 1 million damage guy with 30% winrate and 200k avg dmg). Somebody produced a completely ?firetruck?ed up matchmaking that actually gives you the stick if you play well and fight it out, and rewards those bigtime who basically screw every teammember. I do have a very bad feeling about mail.ru too - look up Obsidian and War Thunder if you wanna know why... Even if its not cheating, to me its like walking a batter, or taking a knee. That's not how my pop, grandma, uncle, and coaches taught me to play. Even if they get you out at first, you still run full out, hit the base, and curve of to the right and slow down. Ain't over till its over. Same here. Only prob is that this way I keep my average damage while fighting teeth and claw while going down, so I continue to face maxed Furys and Ancilots that reduce me to scrap without a real chance of fighting back... and occasionally the maxed guys are on my team and maybe I am lucky to be their beacon boy to get 5 gold... If they think this is how to create income... good luck.
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Post by ewing411 on Feb 20, 2017 17:24:31 GMT -5
If the Dev's intended match-making to put people at their relative skill levels then it is cheating by their standards. In that case I'd vote yes.
However I can't remember the last post when someone said they approved or liked the current MM. I can't even condem the behavior because unlike the old seal clubbing people have different reasons and approaches to it.
Because of the rewards system I play to win. If someone goes 1st spawn with a sniper hero and within the first two minutes I'm down two mechs it is time for a quick review if my time is better spent staying in the match or finding a new one. TT Clubbing triggers these evaluations as well and technically that isn't anyone's fault because MM is putting me in leagues with others who do 25% to 33% more damage. So I guess I'm helping some tankers by ending the matches earlier?
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Post by Pilot Moby_dic on Feb 20, 2017 17:56:21 GMT -5
Tanking is for sad, pathetic losers of life - and I'm not only talking about War Robots, but life in general. If someone has the time to waste hours they'll never get back, or mental capacity to sit there for hour after hour just so they can be competitive because they have no skill and earn some gold feel bad for them. In their so called mastery of the system they are probably 'earning' less than minimum wage!! The fools.
Is it cheating?! Probably not, if it's a loop hole in the system it will be exploited until shut down or time penalties.
Pix should just make one small change - if you leave before the end you can't rejoin a match (bad wifi users included. And I regularly get return to hanger). If I mech out early I like to analyse the game anyway to see who wins etc. This time penalty would kill tankers entirely. Unless, as mentioned, you suck at life.
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Post by ewing411 on Feb 20, 2017 17:59:55 GMT -5
Actually, the administrator is soliciting the feedback of the community. If Strayed just wanted to create another forum rule, he'd just do it. Let's not get carried away. Fair enough Dredd77 , then I apologize to the Strayed and forum community for my poorly reviewed comment. I'm somewhat concerned at how fast some people were ready to support censorship. They owe you an apology as well.
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Post by loren on Feb 20, 2017 18:12:55 GMT -5
Fair enough Dredd77 , then I apologize to the Strayed and forum community for my poorly reviewed comment. I'm somewhat concerned at how fast some people were ready to support censorship. They owe you an apology as well. Naw, no apology needed. Sometimes I forget we live in a world where we have "safe places" in colleges and feelings are easily squished.
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Post by Dejnov on Feb 20, 2017 18:19:54 GMT -5
Yeah. And thats another point. Blame is on Pix and they better sort this out FAST, bc to be honest I can understand tankers more than the Gep Clubbers of the old days (which, tbh were a nuisance in one out of ten games maybe - tankers by now appear nearly every game. Both those that ditch and the 1 million damage guy with 30% winrate and 200k avg dmg). Somebody produced a completely ?firetruck?ed up matchmaking that actually gives you the stick if you play well and fight it out, and rewards those bigtime who basically screw every teammember. See this is the REAL difference that all the seal clubbing was okay, but tanking was bad. When we had seal clubbers it only affected the newbies not themselves and they might even have clubbed with impunity. Now the tanking AFFECTS them. Now they're up in arms.... bloody hypocrites... The new matchmaker is better than the old one. Take it from a 'grown' seal who used to get clubbed constantly. I like the new matchmaker tremendously. Dejnov.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 20, 2017 18:22:58 GMT -5
Tanking is for sad, pathetic losers of life - and I'm not only talking about War Robots, but life in general. If someone has the time to waste hours they'll never get back, or mental capacity to sit there for hour after hour just so they can be competitive because they have no skill and earn some gold feel bad for them. In their so called mastery of the system they are probably 'earning' less than minimum wage!! The fools. Is it cheating?! Probably not, if it's a loop hole in the system it will be exploited until shut down or time penalties. Pix should just make one small change - if you leave before the end you can't rejoin a match (bad wifi users included. And I regularly get return to hanger). If I mech out early I like to analyse the game anyway to see who wins etc. This time penalty would kill tankers entirely. Unless, as mentioned, you suck at life. Knock it off. Slinging insults does not add to the discussion.
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Post by boomsplat on Feb 20, 2017 18:37:27 GMT -5
the real issue is that people still do this. All the clubbers had their ability to win so much removed, so they found a new way to do it. Unless Pix can fix every loophole there is, which is impossible, there is no point. As for cheating...i remember a thread about if gepard clubbing is cheating and the same argument happened. This time however, we can relate to back to that and see the issue is not how people do it or if they should it, it is the fact that people do it. The same for real life. No matter what, there will be those who want the easy way, and unlike real life there are no consequences. My point? The people are the issue, as they do these acts. I don't know if it is just former "clubbers" who are tanking and ditching. Ditching has been a tactic used by many on this forum in the old MM - and praised and lauded in the forum - to express their displeasure at something within the game, in particular against gep drivers. i do find it funny that the community is in an outcry about these tactics now that more higher power players are affected. today, I had a few 12/12 top clan (the old gold tier clans) guys on iOS who were running solos in matches throughout the morning take a beacon and then kill themselves 30-45 sec into the game....no damage and screwed over the rest of us as we just couldn't fight off the other stronger full squad. So I think the whole tanking and ditching thing is broader than former clubbers - and my clan of former gep drivers doesn't embrace tanking nor ditching.... so direct your ire to the right place.
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Post by Pilot Moby_dic on Feb 20, 2017 18:50:57 GMT -5
Tanking is for sad, pathetic losers of life - and I'm not only talking about War Robots, but life in general. If someone has the time to waste hours they'll never get back, or mental capacity to sit there for hour after hour just so they can be competitive because they have no skill and earn some gold feel bad for them. In their so called mastery of the system they are probably 'earning' less than minimum wage!! The fools. Is it cheating?! Probably not, if it's a loop hole in the system it will be exploited until shut down or time penalties. Pix should just make one small change - if you leave before the end you can't rejoin a match (bad wifi users included. And I regularly get return to hanger). If I mech out early I like to analyse the game anyway to see who wins etc. This time penalty would kill tankers entirely. Unless, as mentioned, you suck at life. Knock it off. Slinging insults does not add to the discussion. I was talking of tanking in general terms and in the wider context of life. I believe my points are valid - but apologies if it comes across as slagging.This is a emotive subject the thread is bound to get a few bare bones responses. I did also answer the question.
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Post by Spoopy Scary Haunter on Feb 20, 2017 19:35:05 GMT -5
The two of you are arguing over two different senses of 'exploiting' and one of you is conflating the two. There's a difference. Exploiting is commonly used in the sense of taking advantage of a bug, an actual software defect to cause a system to behave in ways it wasn't designed to. That would be cheating. It's *not* what is happening here. In the more general sense, exploiting is just 'using'. That's what tanking is. It uses the rules, without breaking any, and your fellow players to gain personal advantage at others' expense. It's obnoxious, selfish to the point of sociopathy, but it's LEGAL. Once again, welcome to real life. cheat t?i?t/ verb verb: cheat; 3rd person present: cheats; past tense: cheated; past participle: cheated; gerund or present participle: cheating 1. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage. "she always cheats at cards"
exploit verb verb: exploit; 3rd person present: exploits; past tense: exploited; past participle: exploited; gerund or present participle: exploiting ?k?spl??t,?k?spl??t/ 2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand. "the company was exploiting a legal loophole"
Mhm, absolutely, with out a doubt different. making use of a situation to unfairly benifit and acting unfair, to, wait for it, benefit are waaaaay different. I mean, as if tanking is making use of a situation to benefit, or acting unfairly to gain an advantage, bah!
for all of those still debating if tanking is cheating, i quoted my post. Tanking is considered an exploit, yes? this post explains exploting and cheating are more or less the same, so.....argument finished, good day to you all!
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