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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 19, 2017 23:07:47 GMT -5
"Hard tanking"; dropping matches, not partipating after 1min of activity or running a hangar with no offensive weapons? Yes.
"Soft Tanking"; playing a hangar less then your strongest but still playing to win? No.
I think the league system may make the point moot. At least I hope so.
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Post by springeb on Feb 19, 2017 23:13:18 GMT -5
No. Tanking isn't cheating.
Playing basketball against elementary school children as an adult isn't cheating. Blocking the ball back into their face when they shoot isn't cheating. It isn't impressive or admirable either. That still doesn't make it cheating,
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 23:54:18 GMT -5
Like it or not, IMO tanking is not actually cheating.
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 19, 2017 23:56:44 GMT -5
Still too black and white. There must be a gradient of judgement, hence the impossibility of consensus. Define these: - Take 1 beacon and 1 second worth of damage, then leave match
- Load up 5 Cossacks with Ecus and eat beacons all day
- Start matchmaking then leave phone on desk (idling)
- Make robot builds designed to do minimal damage
- Make robot builds designed to intercept beacons (spear-tip-ing)
Profit- Deliberately drop to the bottom ratings, load TT builds, club your way back up
- Deliberately focus best builds on beacon capturing instead of damage, still try to win every match
According to the absolutism, I'm a tanker. ?firetruck? you. I'm a beacon eater, and an old-school flag runner. Camping is a valid strategy.
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Post by ΜØØSE on Feb 20, 2017 0:03:27 GMT -5
cheat / CH?t/ verb gerund or present participle: cheating 1. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination. "she always cheats at cards"
So, yes.
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brudeldischarge
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Post by brudeldischarge on Feb 20, 2017 0:27:57 GMT -5
I don't blame anyone that tanks to bring their now outclassed hangers to where they should be. Let's face it pix screwed up with how they implemented this new mm and created this mess. Anyone that does it for tactical advantage is just using it, because again, pixonic didn't didn't test it out proper. This mm is meant to be exploited, creates a fast cash flow. After all pix is liable to investors not players. Its not against the rules to do so,so obviously tanking isn't wrong presently. It's part of the game now learn to adapt.
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Post by duckdecoy on Feb 20, 2017 0:40:45 GMT -5
For War Robots only, I vote that tanking is not cheating.
If tanking is cheating, won't that label (and any future penalties) also apply to noobs? They routinely do the same thing - not drop down, play ineptly, and leave after a bot is killed. How does one draw a distinction between noobs and experienced players' unseen motivations although the effect is similar?
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Post by Cdr. Crimmins on Feb 20, 2017 0:49:22 GMT -5
Not cheating but not cool.
If there's anything I learned from all the clubber threads of yore though, it's that no amount of social pressure on an online game will change the behavior of the truly committed.
Until Pix steps in, tankers gonna tank and haters gonna hate.
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brudeldischarge
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Post by brudeldischarge on Feb 20, 2017 0:52:54 GMT -5
By definition everyone that is doesent actively gets beacons must be a tanker too then.
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Post by Strayed on Feb 20, 2017 0:53:02 GMT -5
I think that some of you guys are using the wrong definition of tanking.
Smurfing is not playing at your best.
Tanking is popping into a match, maybe doing a few seconds worth of damage or capping a beacon to make sure you aren't replaced, and then intentionally quitting the match or going afk so that your team is a man down and they lose the match.
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Post by Strayed on Feb 20, 2017 0:54:41 GMT -5
For War Robots only, I vote that tanking is not cheating. If tanking is cheating, won't that label (and any future penalties) also apply to noobs? They routinely do the same thing - not drop down, play ineptly, and leave after a bot is killed. How does one draw a distinction between noobs and experienced players' unseen motivations although the effect is similar? The difference here is the intention. And we aren't Pixonic, I just want to know what the forum thinks of tanking and apply forum rules to discussion and users of it if we make a consensus, not to the actual game.
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Post by Strayed on Feb 20, 2017 0:56:17 GMT -5
Still too black and white. There must be a gradient of judgement, hence the impossibility of consensus. Define these: - Take 1 beacon and 1 second worth of damage, then leave match
- Load up 5 Cossacks with Ecus and eat beacons all day
- Start matchmaking then leave phone on desk (idling)
- Make robot builds designed to do minimal damage
- Make robot builds designed to intercept beacons (spear-tip-ing)
Profit- Deliberately drop to the bottom ratings, load TT builds, club your way back up
- Deliberately focus best builds on beacon capturing instead of damage, still try to win every match
According to the absolutism, I'm a tanker. ?firetruck? you. I'm a beacon eater, and an old-school flag runner. Camping is a valid strategy. The tanking I'm talking about: 1, 3, 7 With the other ones, at least you're still contributing to the team, even if it's minimal.
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Post by Spoopy Scary Haunter on Feb 20, 2017 1:30:30 GMT -5
Exploiting is not cheating. Cheating is bypassing game mechanics in order for you to have an unfair advantage over others, like teleporting and unlimited health. The two of you are arguing over two different senses of 'exploiting' and one of you is conflating the two. There's a difference. Exploiting is commonly used in the sense of taking advantage of a bug, an actual software defect to cause a system to behave in ways it wasn't designed to. That would be cheating. It's *not* what is happening here. In the more general sense, exploiting is just 'using'. That's what tanking is. It uses the rules, without breaking any, and your fellow players to gain personal advantage at others' expense. It's obnoxious, selfish to the point of sociopathy, but it's LEGAL. Once again, welcome to real life. cheat t?i?t/ verb verb: cheat; 3rd person present: cheats; past tense: cheated; past participle: cheated; gerund or present participle: cheating 1. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage. "she always cheats at cards"
exploit verb verb: exploit; 3rd person present: exploits; past tense: exploited; past participle: exploited; gerund or present participle: exploiting ?k?spl??t,?k?spl??t/ 2. make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand. "the company was exploiting a legal loophole"
Mhm, absolutely, with out a doubt different. making use of a situation to unfairly benifit and acting unfair, to, wait for it, benefit are waaaaay different. I mean, as if tanking is making use of a situation to benefit, or acting unfairly to gain an advantage, bah!
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Post by ShutUpAndSmokeMyWeed on Feb 20, 2017 1:45:10 GMT -5
Still too black and white. There must be a gradient of judgement, hence the impossibility of consensus. Define these: - Take 1 beacon and 1 second worth of damage, then leave match
- Load up 5 Cossacks with Ecus and eat beacons all day
- Start matchmaking then leave phone on desk (idling)
- Make robot builds designed to do minimal damage
- Make robot builds designed to intercept beacons (spear-tip-ing)
Profit- Deliberately drop to the bottom ratings, load TT builds, club your way back up
- Deliberately focus best builds on beacon capturing instead of damage, still try to win every match
According to the absolutism, I'm a tanker. ?firetruck? you. I'm a beacon eater, and an old-school flag runner. Camping is a valid strategy. The tanking I'm talking about: 1, 3, 7 With the other ones, at least you're still contributing to the team, even if it's minimal. The point ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ is trying to make is there are various degrees of "tanking" and what qualifies is subjective.
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Post by ShutUpAndSmokeMyWeed on Feb 20, 2017 1:47:30 GMT -5
I'll throw my hat in the mix. It's dishonest and should be frowned upon but by no means cheating since Pixonic allows it. I'd call it more of an exploit of temporary flaws in the MM.
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Post by hyderier on Feb 20, 2017 2:52:26 GMT -5
No. Tanking isn't cheating. Playing basketball against elementary school children as an adult isn't cheating. Blocking the ball back into their face when they shoot isn't cheating. It isn't impressive or admirable either. That still doesn't make it cheating, Tanking compares to betting against your own team or taking a bribe, then just standing around, or even actively blocking your teammates, so you can cash in your reward. Word "cheating" covers that well enough in War Robots context, I think.
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Post by chaosjunior on Feb 20, 2017 3:04:46 GMT -5
As most already said, it's not cheating the game but more of cheating the team.
Chaos
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Post by cakeordeath on Feb 20, 2017 3:07:27 GMT -5
For War Robots only, I vote that tanking is not cheating. If tanking is cheating, won't that label (and any future penalties) also apply to noobs? They routinely do the same thing - not drop down, play ineptly, and leave after a bot is killed. How does one draw a distinction between noobs and experienced players' unseen motivations although the effect is similar? The difference here is the intention. And we aren't Pixonic, I just want to know what the forum thinks of tanking and apply forum rules to discussion and users of it if we make a consensus, not to the actual game. Intention is what it comes down to. Narrowly defining cheating as just banable offenses or acts that violate the ToS misses the point. Intentional non-participation has no other purpose than taking unfair advantage of other players. It cheats your teammates out of a fair match as you tank and cheats your foes out of a fair match as you club your way up. Rigging competions to be unfair is cheating. Any attempt to play word games calling it "exploiting" rather than cheating is disingenuous obfuscation that ignores the basic intent. It isn't clever or simply using what the game provides. It's rigging the competition and that's the very essence of cheating at a game. Smurfing (underperforming in the MM on purpose, compared to your top hangar) is more of a grey area because the intent behind it can vary and the behavior patterns are far less black and white. I have no problem with players who like running beacons (helps my team win), who simply enjoy running lighter hangars and are letting the mm sort out where they should be and other similar cases. Smurfing to club later, yep, cheating because it's match rigging. I also realize that smurfing is much harder to distinguish from simply being a poor player. In any case, these players all contribute to the team, even if they just act as distractions or cannon fodder... they are doing something to help. Given that Pixonic has stated in a dev post that they are aware of tanking and intend to put in safeguards against it, it is fair to say they're taking the stance that it is unethical and an upcoming patch will make it harder to benefit from tanking. Removing the reward incentive should curb much of this sort of behavior and as a side benefit, avoid screwing your rating if your suddenly quit a match for totally innocent reasons.
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xj92
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Post by xj92 on Feb 20, 2017 3:07:59 GMT -5
Short answer: yes.
If you have to ask about it then its probably cheating, "gaming the system" = CHEATING the system = cheating.
And you screw over your team while doing so, which is even worse.
Penalize it even harder ingame and prevent posts/threads about it, because people are D-heads.
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salty af
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Post by salty af on Feb 20, 2017 3:08:25 GMT -5
As far as my vote goes, I think it isn't cheating.
I just think it's rude. The previous posts have basically summed up my stance
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Post by Prowler on Feb 20, 2017 3:36:41 GMT -5
I find the problem with this is how do you know someone is tanking ? Because I have no idea, and because of that I vote NO.
When we squad with our clan we loose a team member sometimes and it always is due to lost or bad connections issues, as this is explained in the clan chat.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 3:49:00 GMT -5
This discussion is rather useless. "Cheating" is a defined word. "Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advance" (It has a different meaning also, if used like "cheating death" but that doesnt apply here) So: Yes. Nobody should blame the occasional disconnect - thats a side effect of a worldwide mobile game. But its absolutely defined that people who tank down their winrate do "cheat". Also in the most unfair way, because they will usually screw their whole team. There have been many days were I only played one or two games which were lost because of the one &$#*@! who parked his bot and did something else. When I realize this after a hard fight that we barely lost my motivation goes below zero instantly by now and I go play something else. I find the problem with this is how do you know someone is tanking ? Because I have no idea, and because of that I vote NO. When we squad with our clan we loose a team member sometimes and it always is due to lost or bad connections issues, as this is explained in the clan chat. Very easy dude. An occasional disco wont dump your winrate in the 30% region...
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Post by Demosthenes on Feb 20, 2017 4:06:13 GMT -5
Tanking. I don't like it. I don't do it (the new mm is driving me to improve my game). I think it in poor taste at best; selfish at worst.
However there is no game-rule against it, so: no - it isn't cheating.
There is no "War Robots" rule-book or set of guidelines that says you can't throw a match.
That isn't to say that there shouldn't be....
If there was a set of "Queensbury" rules for war robots that precluded tanking, and you chose to join matches that followed the Queensbury rules, then tanking in those matches would be cheating. But for now it isn't .
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 4:26:45 GMT -5
One more point from me: Yes, these mechanics exist ingame.
In every single multiplayer game I ever played "abusing a game mechanic" was considered as cheating, if it ruined the fun for others.
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Post by Replicant on Feb 20, 2017 5:08:52 GMT -5
If we're gonna play the semantic game, might as well do it right. The act of tanking is not cheating. It's bad sportsmanship and a 「wee-wee」 move in a game where people can't not play with you... But it's not cheating. There's a pretty good argument for benefitting from tanking being considered cheating, but the semantic game is a stupid game... No one chooses to play with a tanker. If we had the in-game option we'd boot 'em. Cheating is not the only, or even the most important reason to ostracize a player, and I think that's what this is really about: do we put a scarlet "T" on tankers. I really want to say "yes" to that, but the problem is MM is broke as a pick-up. Does cheating mean anything when you don't know the rules? Does it mean anything when the rules create obviously borked match ups? Tanking is an act of desperation. We should treat it as such: disapproval toward the MM designers who created the problem, and pity towards those who lack the testicular fortitude to put their best effort forward.
"I figured out how to lose a ton of games so I could get easy match ups against inferior opponents!"
o.O
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 20, 2017 5:31:31 GMT -5
The difference here is the intention. And we aren't Pixonic, I just want to know what the forum thinks of tanking and apply forum rules to discussion and users of it if we make a consensus, not to the actual game. Intention is what it comes down to. Narrowly defining cheating as just banable offenses or acts that violate the ToS misses the point. Intentional non-participation has no other purpose than taking unfair advantage of other players. It cheats your teammates out of a fair match as you tank and cheats your foes out of a fair match as you club your way up. Rigging competions to be unfair is cheating. Any attempt to play word games calling it "exploiting" rather than cheating is disingenuous obfuscation that ignores the basic intent. It isn't clever or simply using what the game provides. It's rigging the competition and that's the very essence of cheating at a game. Smurfing (underperforming in the MM on purpose, compared to your top hangar) is more of a grey area because the intent behind it can vary and the behavior patterns are far less black and white. I have no problem with players who like running beacons (helps my team win), who simply enjoy running lighter hangars and are letting the mm sort out where they should be and other similar cases. Smurfing to club later, yep, cheating because it's match rigging. I also realize that smurfing is much harder to distinguish from simply being a poor player. In any case, these players all contribute to the team, even if they just act as distractions or cannon fodder... they are doing something to help. Given that Pixonic has stated in a dev post that they are aware of tanking and intend to put in safeguards against it, it is fair to say they're taking the stance that it is unethical and an upcoming patch will make it harder to benefit from tanking. Removing the reward incentive should curb much of this sort of behavior and as a side benefit, avoid screwing your rating if your suddenly quit a match for totally innocent reasons. Didn't need to write much as cake's post are my exact sentiments. Solid yes from me. It comes down (IMO) as to whether the ideal objective/mechanics of the game are being observed; and if they're not, is the action to avoid the ideal a cheat/exploit of the system. So... -Does Pix want you to play against other players most closely aligned to you in avg damage (as we assume)? Or -Does Pix want you to avoid those matches (through tanking) so you can later roll out a hangar to win against players who are far below your ideal MM level?
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Feb 20, 2017 5:49:54 GMT -5
My opinion on this matter (though I no longer currently play War Robots) is that tanking is just another form of clubbing. I'll try not to make generalisations here, since I used to get really annoyed when people generalised clubbers (as a former clubber myself).
Is exploiting the games matchmaking system in order to either reap greater rewards or simply play big bully fair? No, it's not. Anyone can do it, without any form of modification to the game, so in my opinion it is not cheating.
My personal opinion on controversial topics like this on this forum, is that though they quite often get out of hand rather quickly, it should not be against the forum rules to discuss a topic that is apart of the game unless it is directly against the games rules. The problem is not that the topics brought to the table are too controversial to discuss, it is the fact that people need to learn to respect each others views and opinions, whether they agree with them or not.
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salty af
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Post by salty af on Feb 20, 2017 6:31:35 GMT -5
My opinion on this matter (though I no longer currently play War Robots) is that tanking is just another form of clubbing. I'll try not to make generalisations here, since I used to get really annoyed when people generalised clubbers (as a former clubber myself). Is exploiting the games matchmaking system in order to either reap greater rewards or simply play big bully fair? No, it's not. Anyone can do it, without any form of modification to the game, so in my opinion it is not cheating. My personal opinion on controversial topics like this on this forum, is that though they quite often get out of hand rather quickly, it should not be against the forum rules to discuss a topic that is apart of the game unless it is directly against the games rules. The problem is not that the topics brought to the table are too controversial to discuss, it is the fact that people need to learn to respect each others views and opinions, whether they agree with them or not. Why are you even still here XD
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typewriter
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Post by typewriter on Feb 20, 2017 6:40:40 GMT -5
In my definition of the term "cheating", no, tanking is not cheating. No rules broken.
It is a scumbag move that , fairness aside, screws up the gaming experience of 11 other players. So for forum policies and such, IMO, it should be discouraged.
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karljackson
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Post by karljackson on Feb 20, 2017 6:45:40 GMT -5
Theres a generic saying about asking questions like this, "If you have to ask, it probably is". I think also an equal, or even worse issue, is screwing over your team, and potentially making them lose the match! Exactly!
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