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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 17, 2017 10:18:51 GMT -5
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Post by NokiaSåmsung on Feb 17, 2017 10:27:54 GMT -5
Huh?!
Wait until u see a still carnage with dual zenit.
Anyway, I'm waiting for someone to summarised the lengthy post you linked lol
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 17, 2017 10:39:23 GMT -5
Dredd77 I'm glad you have finally seen the light. I have been touting how the new MM was fatally flawed from the very beginning, but I understand why others felt the need to experience the new MM before conceding that it is totally broken.
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Post by gr3ygh05t on Feb 17, 2017 10:44:15 GMT -5
Hallelujah!!! Amen!!! Welcome to the fold Brother!!! Come into the light!!!
Come hunt smurfs with me, or not. Anyway system is borked, good to know that more people realize that now.
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Post by boomsplat on Feb 17, 2017 10:47:43 GMT -5
Dredd77 - insightful post. The one thing I would add to your argument is the same thing I've been mulling over and wrote about this morning before seeing your post (http://war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/2572/game-principles-balance-fairness?page=1&scrollTo=45723). What is missing in this whole epic snafu is the rewards....your analogy of the failure of communism and the current MM is spot on because there is no incentive to do better other than relying on pride and competitive spirit.....but what motivates more people is commensurate rewards for commensurate performance and risk taking. At the end of the day, personal gain is what provides more drive than anything else and that is missing in the MM. I'm with you on not being able to defend the current MM because it makes no sense without the improved reward for performance. Pixo needs to roll out the damn reward system asap to salvage this game because it is on a downward spiral - while still fun to play, it is going from hardcore pursuit to casual almost reluctance in my interest level. And that doesn't seem to be just isolated to a few of us. Better Rewards is the missing link and is the primary driver of the issues - that is a Pixo issue that they need to fix asap.
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Feb 17, 2017 10:58:53 GMT -5
@ boomsplat ...BINGO! The rewards system will be changed next update. The incentive / distinctiveness are not correct for the new MM.
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 17, 2017 11:04:19 GMT -5
Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ A new rewards system will help some, but the matches will ultimately still suck. Tanking will still be rampant. It should be obvious even to the most fervent Pixonic defenders by now.
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Feb 17, 2017 11:10:10 GMT -5
Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ A new rewards system will help some, but the matches will ultimately still suck. Tanking will still be rampant. It should be obvious even to the most fervent Pixonic defenders by now. Dude you are at the end of your run here, that's why you are being poisonous and agitating...There frankly isn't anything Pix could do that would please you . You have decisions to make.
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Post by boomsplat on Feb 17, 2017 11:16:22 GMT -5
Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ A new rewards system will help some, but the matches will ultimately still suck. Tanking will still be rampant. It should be obvious even to the most fervent Pixonic defenders by now. I think it depends on what your definition of a good outcome is. If you could get the same silver/gold rewards as you would by using your best equipment in a higher tier as you would earn by tanking to lower tiers, would you still tank? Ultimately, your win rate would be lower but you'd have the same resources for arguably less effort but tougher matches. I'm just uncertain what that would do to players at the lower end of tiers as I would think Pixo will try to keep rewards like gold awarded a zero sum game in their scheme. I'm not defending Pixo, but trying to give myself reasons why I still want to play this game. cheers
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Post by sonofsam on Feb 17, 2017 11:19:02 GMT -5
NOooo 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 I had just moved to your side and now you switch?
Yes tankers/smurffers suck but I like that I can run what I want and now that the MM is starting to stabilise it will soon find me a competitive match (assuming I don't run into tankers I'm good at messing up smurffers plans)
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Post by Conflict's Student on Feb 17, 2017 11:30:10 GMT -5
Why do minor league ballplayers want to play at the highest levels of elite professional competition, when they could win much more often against semipros at the bottom?
Sure, one ingredient is the sense of personal achievement and/or public glory possible from the chance of actually beating the best. Certainly another ingredient - at least for some - is the massive difference in payout available.
Perhaps you should not be able to win 10 Au by beating inexperienced or ill-equipped players. And maybe beating a full squad of 12/12s who have been playing together for years deserves a bit more. Incentives should align with desirable styles of play. Let folks tank and play all day for that MoC against destriers and cossacks... but for 1 Au instead of 5. If they're truly doing it because they love the little grasshopper with Ecu, they'll have little to complain about and they get what they say they want. Meanwhile, those with the mettle to risk losing every once in a while should see more upside for taking greater risks. Just my $0.02.
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Feb 17, 2017 11:37:36 GMT -5
People are simply seeing the current state of the MM as the final state...That foolish. It's phased roll out with components; next component payouts for leagues.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 17, 2017 11:40:58 GMT -5
Exactly Boom... the carrot and stick arrangement that is in place atm, is laughable. NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT. The only way that people advocating for screwing the game up worse as a valid tactic of accumulating resources can be seen as acceptable (see the reprehensible seal clubbing guide thread and others), is if it happens in this environment of rewarding the bad behavior and, what is seen as punishing the good. The one thing, in my pursuit of trying to get across what the positives for me have been with all this, that I have not discussed, was the rewards. Mainly because 2.6 was supposed to be that answer. I saw this initial rollout as a *Lets get it in there and let it settle, then put out all the layers that go on top.* Well, that is a great theory, and if everyone was playing as Pixo thinks it should be played, would be fine. However, the whole process of getting everything out there has been so clunky, so opaque, and so poorly handled over all, that the results we are seeing, as far as player backlash, is not surprising.
The matches themselves, as I have been saying, when solo, are the best I've had... or at least they are when the obvious tankers aren't in there. Thank you greyghost, for that. Yes I blame you for the damn guide. I realize part of your intent was to incentivize Pix to hurry up and incentivize us, but it is the wrong way to go about it. The quality of matches now suck worse because of the actions of the Players, not Pix. Regardless of the chicken egg argument. Personal choice to either do or not do something is still that person's fault, not anyone else's actions that they want to blame it on... but I digress.
Like you and others have said... rewards are what drive the majority of players. I don't really care about Au atm, but Ag, man, I need those high damage battles, but if I have too many of them and I end up doing the average damage (while not the stat used for the matches, it is still a good indicator of their likelihood to be a good match for you in most cases) of the 12's that I meet. Granted, that prolly means that a.) they are tanking, or b.) they aren't that good, but still, my damage output drops (hence my lack of Ag income) once I start getting pitted against higher leveled weapons, so the ONLY incentive I have to play hard is taken away. I am NOT tempted to tank, but, it does make me put in a hanger that I wouldn't normally run, so that I can still have some effect on the battle. (Unless I play like I did last night... ugh! I think pressing "record" makes me lose dexterity)
Now, to bring this back around to the main topic lately, the rewards (or lack thereof) are absolutely the reason for the anger. Losing is bad enough, but losing and not getting what you need to advance is like banging your head against a wall, repeatedly, just to get rid of a headache. I am sure there are those that will always try and drop to play the easiest games they can due to lack of skill, self esteem, care of others, whatever; but I don't think as many will if they can actually accumulate resources in a satisfactory amount while playing the "peak" matches that we get when we punch above our weight.
I have tried very hard not to 「female dog」 and moan about anything until there is a full-on finalized release of the system, including the leagues. And, I would love to keep doing that. However, since they have already taken longer than was expected for the patch that is supposed to introduce Leagues and, consequently, incentivize people to play at their best level, the backlash is growing. The bitterness everywhere, is more disheartening than the game experience is for me. These games are about the people playing them. If everyone hates playing it... the fun leaches out. Pix has not even tried to remove the leeches, not even going to mention stooping the bleeding. I don't know about numbers of people not playing anymore that were before the MM, but I know how little the active people in clans that I am aware of, are playing. Most are dailies only. This is sad.
I, and others, are waiting on 2.6. That is their make or break patch for many.
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Post by gr3ygh05t on Feb 17, 2017 11:45:42 GMT -5
Ok, Dredd. I read your post in detail. I am not a programmer but I have some experience in coding. The reason Pix doesn't do it the way you proposed is because of limited server resources.
Imagine the algorithm for you hangar setup equation. Multiply that by say 10,000,000 times (during peak server use). Now can you imagine the resources needed to implement this.
Consider the current setup. It is only using one metric: damage average for 50 battles. The data is probably measured only in KB's. Which is why it is relatively quick to match people up.
Let me propose an alternative. Get max bot level + get max weapon level "owned" not in hangar but "owned" and set this as your metric. It is simple and makes tanking costly. Leagues are also an alternative say Newbie league: max level 3, Bronze: max level 6, Silver: max level 9 and Gold: 10 and higher.
Ok how about clubbers mounting Geps with Mags? Easy set Gold and WSP bots and weapons at Lv 6 right off the bat. If you want to buy one and use it it throws you out of the newbie league.
Problem Solved. Booyah!!!
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 17, 2017 12:00:19 GMT -5
People are simply seeing the current state of the MM as the final state...That foolish. It's phased roll out with components; next component payouts for leagues. This is completely and utterly false. It's just clear that any system based on performance will be exploited endlessly. Tweaking a fundamentally flawed system will still result in a flawed MM. All I want is to have fun matches consistently, against reasonably even competition, where everyone is trying their best to win. This will never happen with a MM that is primarily performance based.
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 17, 2017 12:05:18 GMT -5
First, a pure technicality. The new MM is not 'broken', in fact it's working exactly the way it was coded to do. I do agree, however, that it's not working for us players. 8 game losing streaks thanks to idlers, quitters, and idiots, followed by a roflstomp match where I take 1st dmg and MoC, when I'm focused on beacon capturing?? And then my PR shoots way up, and it's back to losing... I wish there was a stronger form of the term Bi-Polar to describe the mess we're in.
I wholeheartedly agree, Dredd, that it is utter foolishness to expect large groups of humans to play nicely together in a competitive environment. I adore the Star Trek shows, but the Federation will never exist in our world, because we humans are too selfish. According to the lore, the idea and ideals of the Star Fleet only came about because of a series of Extinction Level Event nuclear wars that wiped out over 2/3rd of all humanity. The survivors that were left killed another half of the remaining population off in competition for scarce resources. The remaining dregs of humanity had no choice left but to cooperate with each other or face extinction.
We, as War Robots players, are facing the same threat of extinction.
I proposed a fix for the previous MM that would have ended TMGep clubbing and yet still preserved the tiers we had. They could have made the Hangar Score used then based on total weapon levels instead of average weapon levels, which would have closed the loophole for Gepard clubbing. Obviously, my suggestion to Pixo fell on deaf ears.
I was already a casual player, not by choice but by circumstance. Last night I had a similar epiphany as the OP, as I lost all desire to play another match once my daily missions were complete. This is dragging me back my oldest 'meta' game, how far can I take a freemium game with P2W elements without buying in? Many, many, MANY other mobile games I've play have resulted in the same boring cycle. Log in, complete daily tasks, squeeze in some fun if it's to be found, move on until tomorrow.
It's kinda like your mom's favorite guilt trip. "I'm not angry, just very disappointed."
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Post by loren on Feb 17, 2017 12:09:48 GMT -5
History has never been a strong spot for me so the first few paragraphs flew overhead like a 737. However I am full on supportive when it comes to gear based MM. I was so bewildered the first week I had to figure out why a 4-6 pilot was being matched to a 12-12, right away I knew something was wrong. Without even looking at your data I like how you tier out the system just based on gear and award Ag value to WSP and Au. Perhaps I missed it, but a check to protect the nursery should move any hangar with 3+ bots into the wild. Awesome solution dredd77. Loren.
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Post by loren on Feb 17, 2017 12:20:17 GMT -5
Ok, Dredd. I read your post in detail. I am not a programmer but I have some experience in coding. The reason Pix doesn't do it the way you proposed is because of limited server resources.
Imagine the algorithm for you hangar setup equation. Multiply that by say 10,000,000 times (during peak server use). Now can you imagine the resources needed to implement this.
Consider the current setup. It is only using one metric: damage average for 50 battles. The data is probably measured only in KB's. Which is why it is relatively quick to match people up.
Let me propose an alternative. Get max bot level + get max weapon level "owned" not in hangar but "owned" and set this as your metric. It is simple and makes tanking costly. Leagues are also an alternative say Newbie league: max level 3, Bronze: max level 6, Silver: max level 9 and Gold: 10 and higher.
Ok how about clubbers mounting Geps with Mags? Easy set Gold and WSP bots and weapons at Lv 6 right off the bat. If you want to buy one and use it it throws you out of the newbie league.
Problem Solved. Booyah!!! This type of calculation already happens, every time we log in to the game our configurations are loaded from the last exit. Rather than having Bot 1 through 5, we would just have a hangar total value. Throw in a few protection checks and this gear based MM is good for production.
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Post by Blurred Vision on Feb 17, 2017 14:26:00 GMT -5
Loved your post dredd77 - entertaining and insightful Blog subscribed/followed. Thanks!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 14:41:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the good read Dredd77. Gear based rankings make good sense for us the players, but from what I gather, Pix does not want the rankings to be gear based, since that allows us players to camp at a certain level. For example, players would never feel compelled to upgrade, buy new things, spend $ on gold, etc, if they were always getting great and fun matches in level 5 destriers with level 6 mollots as you describe. Pix has come out and stated that they want the population of pilots to always progress. Its a great proposal you make, but I think the reality is that Pix will push pilots to either run higher and higher setups, or quit and restart from the beginning, quit and not restart, or, I suppose, do the tank/club thing. As much as we may disagree with that methodology, I think that is ultimately their strategy. Cheers.
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Post by carnage on Feb 17, 2017 15:03:58 GMT -5
Dredd77 , don't know if you noticed but your proposition exactly goes the way I push for a while now.
Example of a previous post : war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/post/45581/thread
Yes, it's possible to have a gear-based MM, yes it is used in many similar games (I gave the example of car games), and yes, it is much more logical and fair than a damage-based MM.
Unfortunately I see two possibilities. Either Pix have courage to face reality, admit their mistake and correct it, or they just close their eyes and stick to their decision. I am afraid the later is much more likely and unfortunately, whatever adjustments they put in place, it will not solve the fact a damaged-based MM is fundamentally flawed. As blastronaut said, you can't construct on wrong foundations and that's exactly the problem Pix will face here. What they will do now, giving more rewards to higher categories ? That would be an absolutely terrible decision as it would make the gaps even bigger between old and new players.
I really like this game, but the situation is concerning to say the least.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 17, 2017 15:24:06 GMT -5
IMO, if the leagues consist of a mix between performance based matching (to better match the league you are in) and equipment matching (to set the league itself), it could work.
For example... if Chartreuse league is for people with levels 6-8 in both bots and weapons (either one being enough to put you there), then your performance in that league will determine who you get matched with and what rewards you get.
Boxing is sorta similar... you have weight classes (equipment) and rankings within the class (skill). That way, you could stay in the league you wanted... but hopefully still get decently fair match ups.
Prolly too simple for anyone to use, though. LOL!
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Post by loren on Feb 17, 2017 16:03:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the good read Dredd77 . Gear based rankings make good sense for us the players, but from what I gather, Pix does not want the rankings to be gear based, since that allows us players to camp at a certain level. For example, players would never feel compelled to upgrade, buy new things, spend $ on gold, etc, if they were always getting great and fun matches in level 5 destriers with level 6 mollots as you describe. Pix has come out and stated that they want the population of pilots to always progress. Its a great proposal you make, but I think the reality is that Pix will push pilots to either run higher and higher setups, or quit and restart from the beginning, quit and not restart, or, I suppose, do the tank/club thing. As much as we may disagree with that methodology, I think that is ultimately their strategy. Cheers. heavypanda you smashed the nail there. Pushing players out of their comfort zone was the only way to ease open the purse strings with the old system. A gear based MM would work if Pix just went full P2W, drop the freebie's like WSP and battle Au. Freebies get a certain hangar availability to purchase with Ag and the rest can be Au. Freebies can't complain because it's not costing them anything to play. Throw them a couple soft bones for heavies and a few weapons to mount to have some fun, but charge for the rest. Farming Au pre change was just to easy. Now with the ability to fast tank or slow tank depending on what makes you feel warm and fuzzy, it continues to be to easy to farm. I would gladly pay money to have the same fun matches I was having in the past rather then log in to do my daily bonus and ditch. 6 weeks ago my phone was flooded with squad invites and clan chat was alive. This week the last squad invite was from some random daily bonus match pilot, and my clan chat hasn't had much activity since yesterday when I asked if anyone still played. Pix must see the numbers and my clan can't be the only one that has slowed to a crawl. Or maybe it's just me and I need to find a more active group who has not been effected by the new MM disaster. Gear MM is the only way to get balanced matches and dredd77 added values to the gear so similar setups will be running across from you rather the squash fest 12-12's I get now when I have a good match that boosts me up. I am getting about 5:1.5 ratio, smashed to paste for 5 then one good one followed by and almost... nope meched out. match. Pix please fix soon. Loren.
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Post by critter667 on Feb 17, 2017 16:05:59 GMT -5
So the main premise is that people can fske ability, so basing an MM matching on that does not work. Instead, we should return to a gear based system which cannot be gamed.
But wasn't the old system a gear base system? Wasn't it gamed because people figured out that bot level was rated higher than weapon level, allowing them to take certain bots matched with certain weapons and farm the system?
Even the system suggested could be gamed. Yes the new suggested system was not heavily defined. Still, the assumption that people could not find the optimal bot/layout/levels to deliver maximum DPS while still maintaining the lowest rank seems foolish. I mean if the assumption is... People will game a system of it is based on ability, isn't the same true that people will game a system based on gear, especially when they already have?
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Feb 17, 2017 16:27:46 GMT -5
MM is fine, people is not. The whole thing would be fixed very easily: matches you don't finish with at least 25% damage of the best player or 50% beacons of best capper simply don't get counted. Also, you have to wait for the match you leave to be finished before joining another.
Tank that.And shouldn't be that hard to implement.
Also, clans/friends. If you go and squad with 5 of your mates, you don't have tankers on your side.
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Post by carnage on Feb 17, 2017 16:27:49 GMT -5
So the main premise is that people can fske ability, so basing an MM matching on that does not work. Instead, we should return to a gear based system which cannot be gamed. But wasn't the old system a gear base system? Wasn't it gamed because people figured out that bot level was rated higher than weapon level, allowing them to take certain bots matched with certain weapons and farm the system? Even the system suggested could be gamed. Yes the new suggested system was not heavily defined. Still, the assumption that people could not find the optimal bot/layout/levels to deliver maximum DPS while still maintaining the lowest rank seems foolish. I mean if the assumption is... People will game a system of it is based on ability, isn't the same true that people will game a system based on gear, especially when they already have? critter667 , read the message I've put a couple of message above yours. In short, a good gear-based MM would not allow clubbers to cheat the system. The first system was gamed because it was totally incomplete, but that could totally be fixed. Let's take a very very basic example in which 1 WSP = 20 Silver and 1 gold = 1'000 Silver. A Guepard would be worth 1'200'000 at level 1. Three mags would be worth 3 * 3'750 = 11'250 WSP = 225'000 silver. Plus the upgrades, the guepard value would quickly approach 2M. If you set decent categories : * Level 1 between 0 and 99k * Level 2 between 100k and 299k * Level 3 between 300k and 999k * Level 4 between 1M and 2M And so on (it's only quick examples here!) You can be sure that a Guepard, especially upgraded, would not be allowed to face basic player with Destrier/Punishers. A gear-based MM totally works, it just needs to be fine-tuned correctly. It was obviously not the case in the first version of the MM and that is why you could see some clubbers. Those problems would not happen with a well-defined gear-based MM.
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Post by critter667 on Feb 17, 2017 16:39:00 GMT -5
But in your example, I could take level 1 dessies, and find the best 2 weapons with range and damage to be at 99998, and farm. It may not be Gepard with mags but it could and would still keep me at the top of the tier where I could farm more easily.
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Post by tsunisterbr on Feb 17, 2017 16:45:33 GMT -5
Please, to those who believe the new league/reward system will fix the game problems, explain to me how's that. I know SEVERAL games on PC that stood the test of time, keeping its playerbase solid for many, many years. They became classics. They earned its fans based in great gameplay, very friendly communication, and real interest in players' feedback. There was NO kind of reward system on them. So, why do you keep putting thing like rewards above gameplay? I could keep playing War Robots for many years, if only the gameplay was compeling enough (as it used to be), and JUST because of its gameplay. I personally don't care about rewards and stuff like that. Sad thing is, I don't believe anymore Pixonic wants to make War Robots a classic. They are now just for the money.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 16:52:31 GMT -5
Dredd, does Pix read Gepard Diaries?
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Post by loren on Feb 17, 2017 17:07:38 GMT -5
Please, to those who believe the new league/reward system will fix the game problems, explain to me how's that. I know SEVERAL games on PC that stood the test of time, keeping its playerbase solid for many, many years. They became classics. They earned its fans based in great gameplay, very friendly communication, and real interest in players' feedback. There was NO kind of reward system on them. So, why do you keep putting thing like rewards above gameplay? I could keep playing War Robots for many years, if only the gameplay was compeling enough (as it used to be), and JUST because of its gameplay. I personally don't care about rewards and stuff like that. Sad thing is, I don't believe anymore Pixonic wants to make War Robots a classic. They are now just for the money. I agree with what you say about people coming for a classic. I have been a Mech fan since I was a kid, back then it was Robotech, then Mechwarrior games came out and I was addicted. Last year I found Walking War Robots and after the second match I traded sleep for the game. I find the game play to be some of the best I have seen on a phone or game box for that matter. Pix needs to make profit for this game to survive, all those games you played in the past had some form of income, subscription, gem sales, something to get the money flowing. Pix had the mechanics of the game down, a few tweaks to curb clubbing and the game would be finished as is. Now the solution the OP suggested would help a lot in the form of balance through hangar value. Pix really just needs to mess with rewards, bots for $$$ and guns for $$$. Free accounts with ads or premium accounts without ads. This keeps players happy as well as the investors in Pixonic. I am for a win win solution for community and company. The game worked, yes it needed a few tweaks but overall it was a home run. I wish they would just work on revenue changes that do not affect the game core so drastically. Loren
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