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Post by tectonic on Feb 17, 2017 17:07:58 GMT -5
To true dredd.
Measure the thing that the game can easily measure instead of the game guessing how good we are with them.
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Post by boomsplat on Feb 17, 2017 18:38:04 GMT -5
Please, to those who believe the new league/reward system will fix the game problems, explain to me how's that. I know SEVERAL games on PC that stood the test of time, keeping its playerbase solid for many, many years. They became classics. They earned its fans based in great gameplay, very friendly communication, and real interest in players' feedback. There was NO kind of reward system on them. So, why do you keep putting thing like rewards above gameplay? I could keep playing War Robots for many years, if only the gameplay was compeling enough (as it used to be), and JUST because of its gameplay. I personally don't care about rewards and stuff like that. Sad thing is, I don't believe anymore Pixonic wants to make War Robots a classic. They are now just for the money. It depends on how much you believe tanking is causing matches to be disrupted. It seems to be a top complaint now days. My hope is that rewards that are higher for higher tier play will reduce the incentive to tank, leading to improved game experience for most. Plus with leagues, we may be better able to form squads with comparable tier players so the squad feature could work better, restoring that aspect of the game. I don't think league/reward changes will make all problems go away as there are a number of players who miss the ability to be competitive with equipment other than heavy bots. For that, my hope is that custom matches will allow us to play comparable equipment matches. Rewards and game play go hand in hand with War Robots as it would be extremely difficult to take all rewards away - that was one of the things many of us liked about War Robots from the start - Pixo didn't heavy hand you to get you to open your wallet. You did it willingly because the game play quality was pretty good. Hope we can get back to that point sooner vs later.
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Post by SlowReflexes on Feb 17, 2017 19:42:30 GMT -5
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 17, 2017 19:45:45 GMT -5
I think one issue is that the expectations for the new MM were that hangar strength was expected to still play a part of your placement. By and large the community was behind "mixing" hangar strength with a skill measurement.
The new MM rolled out with (apparently) no hangar strength modifier. This is the disappointing part of the whole MM debacle.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 21:47:55 GMT -5
I thought it would pit clubbers against clubbers, which was the enthusiasm about Elo matchmaking before it launched. Now it pits everyone against everyone, and I can tell you for a fact that fighting a 4/12 Gepard is more enjoying and skill based than fighting top tier players.
To kill top tier players, all you need to do is throw tridents and orkans and aphids. Those weapons don't particularly need skill to used.
But fighting a 4/12 clubber was a lot more difficult. Best choice and pick to use was the Boa Thunder Taran, and you had to figure out how to force the clubber to fight you in point blank, where you would have the advantage.
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Post by SlowReflexes on Feb 17, 2017 22:32:13 GMT -5
I thought it would pit clubbers against clubbers, which was the enthusiasm about Elo matchmaking before it launched. So you were a sucker. No offense, nothing personal. It was easy to believe, easy to *want* to believe. But yeah, like a lot of people you got suckered. Now the determined clubbers are clubbing better than ever, tanking and sandbagging are making matches suck, and almost everyone who isn't one of those determined clubbers (now tankers, too) or already at Top hates their life.
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Post by SlowReflexes on Feb 17, 2017 22:35:04 GMT -5
I think one issue is that the expectations for the new MM were that hangar strength was expected to still play a part of your placement. By and large the community was behind "mixing" hangar strength with a skill measurement. The new MM rolled out with (apparently) no hangar strength modifier. This is the a disappointing part of the whole MM debacle. Fine post. Minor quibble.
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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 17, 2017 22:55:32 GMT -5
Dredd77 I'm glad you have finally seen the light. I have been touting how the new MM was fatally flawed from the very beginning, but I understand why others felt the need to experience the new MM before conceding that it is totally broken. Obvious troll is obvious.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 22:57:33 GMT -5
Dredd77 I'm glad you have finally seen the light. I have been touting how the new MM was fatally flawed from the very beginning, but I understand why others felt the need to experience the new MM before conceding that it is totally broken. Obvious troll is obvious. Hey, does Pix read your Gepard Diaries?
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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 17, 2017 22:58:57 GMT -5
Dredd77 - insightful post. The one thing I would add to your argument is the same thing I've been mulling over and wrote about this morning before seeing your post (http://war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/2572/game-principles-balance-fairness?page=1&scrollTo=45723). What is missing in this whole epic snafu is the rewards....your analogy of the failure of communism and the current MM is spot on because there is no incentive to do better other than relying on pride and competitive spirit.....but what motivates more people is commensurate rewards for commensurate performance and risk taking. At the end of the day, personal gain is what provides more drive than anything else and that is missing in the MM. I'm with you on not being able to defend the current MM because it makes no sense without the improved reward for performance. Pixo needs to roll out the damn reward system asap to salvage this game because it is on a downward spiral - while still fun to play, it is going from hardcore pursuit to casual almost reluctance in my interest level. And that doesn't seem to be just isolated to a few of us. Better Rewards is the missing link and is the primary driver of the issues - that is a Pixo issue that they need to fix asap. I noticed a couple of folks have brought up "better rewards" as a fix to the system. I'm skeptical, because you're always going to have folks who feel that they have a better shot being a big fish in a small point for 5g than a small fish in a big pond for 10g.
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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 17, 2017 22:59:22 GMT -5
Obvious troll is obvious. Hey, does Pix read your Gepard Diaries? Yes. Been told that directly.
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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 17, 2017 23:15:13 GMT -5
NOooo 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 I had just moved to your side and now you switch? Yes tankers/smurffers suck but I like that I can run what I want and now that the MM is starting to stabilise it will soon find me a competitive match (assuming I don't run into tankers I'm good at messing up smurffers plans) Here's the thing, mate. The MM isn't "starting" to stabilise for me. It stabilised weeks ago. I've had some absolutely incredible matches. In a perfect world. the current MM would be a delight, but Pixo doesn't seem adept at understanding the "gamers gonna game" principle. I'm not coming at this on the outside looking in, but as someone that the MM is working as intended- and still exploitable.
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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 17, 2017 23:16:46 GMT -5
Why do minor league ballplayers want to play at the highest levels of elite professional competition, when they could win much more often against semipros at the bottom? Sure, one ingredient is the sense of personal achievement and/or public glory possible from the chance of actually beating the best. Certainly another ingredient - at least for some - is the massive difference in payout available. Perhaps you should not be able to win 10 Au by beating inexperienced or ill-equipped players. And maybe beating a full squad of 12/12s who have been playing together for years deserves a bit more. Incentives should align with desirable styles of play. Let folks tank and play all day for that MoC against destriers and cossacks... but for 1 Au instead of 5. If they're truly doing it because they love the little grasshopper with Ecu, they'll have little to complain about and they get what they say they want. Meanwhile, those with the mettle to risk losing every once in a while should see more upside for taking greater risks. Just my $0.02. I think rewards scaling with tier is absolutely solid. It costs more to compete in the higher tiers, so the rewards should be commensurate. Another great point, Conflict's Student
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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 17, 2017 23:19:12 GMT -5
Ok, Dredd. I read your post in detail. I am not a programmer but I have some experience in coding. The reason Pix doesn't do it the way you proposed is because of limited server resources.
Imagine the algorithm for you hangar setup equation. Multiply that by say 10,000,000 times (during peak server use). Now can you imagine the resources needed to implement this.
Minimal. You're effectively assigning a static point value for each bot and weapon. A "total hangar strength" value that's easily derived. If the system is robust enough to match based on recent performance- which is pretty solid- then it could easily handle sorting people by "points." That would even give it the ability to respond immediately to changes in hangar. If I swap my 12/12's for 3/3's, it can sort me accordingly on my very next match.
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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 17, 2017 23:20:07 GMT -5
Loved your post dredd77 - entertaining and insightful Blog subscribed/followed. Thanks!! Much appreciated!!
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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 17, 2017 23:22:03 GMT -5
Only got to a few responses, folks. Got caught up playing ROcksmith tonight, and have the Farm Machinery Show tomorrow all day. WIll pick the conversation back up tmorrow evening, but thanks to everyone for the feedback and input!!
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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 18, 2017 0:49:06 GMT -5
I thought it would pit clubbers against clubbers, which was the enthusiasm about Elo matchmaking before it launched. So you were a sucker. No offense, nothing personal. It was easy to believe, easy to *want* to believe. But yeah, like a lot of people you got suckered. Now the determined clubbers are clubbing better than ever, tanking and sandbagging are making matches suck, and almost everyone who isn't one of those determined clubbers (now tankers, too) or already at Top hates their life. While disappointed in the metric chosen, I am neither a sandbagger or TT by any stretch, but the MM has leveled out for me and my matches are balanced and enjoyable for the most part. I like the new variety of bots I am facing. Yes, either the old MM could have been fixed easily or the new MM needs better metrics, but it's far from the end of the game.
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KenghisKhan
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Post by KenghisKhan on Feb 18, 2017 3:38:04 GMT -5
Loved your post dredd77 - entertaining and insightful Blog subscribed/followed. Thanks!! X2, entertains and amuses. Kudos.
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Post by carnage on Feb 18, 2017 4:18:24 GMT -5
I noticed a couple of folks have brought up "better rewards" as a fix to the system. I'm skeptical, because you're always going to have folks who feel that they have a better shot being a big fish in a small point for 5g than a small fish in a big pond for 10g. I gave my opinion here also.
While in theory, it obviously make sense to give more rewards to higher tiers, it is a theory only. In the particular case of WW it is a classic case of a totally "wrong good idea" because the only thing it will do is to give more rewards to rich, and more rewards to older players who already had a lot of avantages compared to younger players (like buying some items in silver while they cost gold now).
The old system gave equal rewards to everybody for the same time invested, and that was a very intelligent way of evening the field between players. After losing fair games because of the MM, now we would lose equal rewards also ? Seriously guys, if the goal is to make sure new players don't ever catch older players, say it clearly. Under that system the young players will get gold slowly, the older player will get gold faster. This will widen the gaps between players and will not even solve all problems of clubbing because as you mention, I could totally see some players prefering to drop their damage ratio a bit to face lesser opponents on a daily basis.
Now to be fair, I agree a *little* increase in rewards can make sense in order to encourage some sort of progression. But for this to be fair, it has to be very, very reasonable though to avoid widening gaps between players because fact is, having equal rewards for all players in the past was a great way to even the field between players. And losing that is absolutely not a step in the good direction IMO.
This situation is exactly what I was talking about when I was saying Pix would build now on wrong foundations. Giving fair games (fair games = EVEN robots !!) should be the absolute priority, not giving more rewards to the rich and less to the poor to try patching a completely flawed and unfair MM.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 17:44:06 GMT -5
Very interesting and provocative thoughts. Good stuff.
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Feb 18, 2017 17:52:37 GMT -5
What did the Avg. Clubber make? Cause the rewards will need to be close to that or guess what? The lil' snowflakes will riot.
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Feb 18, 2017 17:56:48 GMT -5
What did the Avg. Clubber make? Cause the rewards will need to be close to that or guess what? The lil' snowflakes will riot. Back in the day? I'd assume an average of 6-7 gold per game, counting the odd defeat and the fact that sometimes they might miss the double 5 golds. Cosnidering they also had very fast games, they could probably do 10 games per hour easily, or 60-70 gold per hour, possibly more.
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Post by Dejnov on Feb 18, 2017 17:58:10 GMT -5
So you were a sucker. No offense, nothing personal. It was easy to believe, easy to *want* to believe. But yeah, like a lot of people you got suckered. Now the determined clubbers are clubbing better than ever, tanking and sandbagging are making matches suck, and almost everyone who isn't one of those determined clubbers (now tankers, too) or already at Top hates their life. While disappointed in the metric chosen, I am neither a sandbagger or TT by any stretch, but the MM has leveled out for me and my matches are balanced and enjoyable for the most part. I like the new variety of bots I am facing. Yes, either the old MM could have been fixed easily or the new MM needs better metrics, but it's far from the end of the game. Same here!! I honestly don't see any of this sandbagging, smurfing, or whatever they want to call it. The games have been a blast lately with tough competition from all reds and blues. I did have one 4 on 5 recently and I can recall a guy who dropped, but it's rare. I do see 12/12s occasionally (got into a 5 person clan game with a couple of 12/12s on both sides), but nothing insane like all 12/12s and my lonely 8/9s. Do I only see top tier bots in my games.... yeah there are a lot of Griffs, Furies, Carnages, Lances, Rhinos, and Galahads (mine included), but there are also Geps, Gareths, and Stalkers with the occasional enterprising Cossack or Rogatka pilot. And Golems, Boas, Fujins,Raijins, and Leo's show up also. But let's face it some bots ARE better than others and some do get outclassed by others as you go up levels in weapons/bots. That is a natural progression. I really do hope that the new jackrabbit and gunslinger bots are not gold purchasable ever and can only be bought with league rewards. That is probably all the carrot that Pixonic needs. Dejnov
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Feb 18, 2017 18:11:19 GMT -5
What did the Avg. Clubber make? Cause the rewards will need to be close to that or guess what? The lil' snowflakes will riot. Back in the day? I'd assume an average of 6-7 gold per game, counting the odd defeat and the fact that sometimes they might miss the double 5 golds. Cosnidering they also had very fast games, they could probably do 10 games per hour easily, or 60-70 gold per hour, possibly more. Jeez...Then let me be the first to declare that this game will be in permeant riot mode for a while...Cause the payouts are not going to be near that rich. Not even in the Champ or Legend leagues... No wonder Pix abolished the Farming community...they were out right getting looted... It's gonna be a while for the "you screwed us now we'll screw you" crowd to get tired and move along. Until then it's gonna be Complainer-ville around here.
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 18, 2017 18:33:23 GMT -5
Back in the day? I'd assume an average of 6-7 gold per game, counting the odd defeat and the fact that sometimes they might miss the double 5 golds. Cosnidering they also had very fast games, they could probably do 10 games per hour easily, or 60-70 gold per hour, possibly more. Jeez...Then let me be the first to declare that this game will be in permeant riot mode for a while...Cause the payouts are not going to be near that rich. Not even in the Champ or Legend leagues... No wonder Pix abolished the Farming community...they were out right getting looted... It's gonna be a while for the "you screwed us now we'll screw you" crowd to get tired and move along. Until then it's gonna be Complainer-ville around here. The biggest complainer I see around here is Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ . This one trick pony hasn't even thought up a new complaint in weeks. I fully agree with dredd about the MM and many of the comments and criticisms of Pixonic and the MM others have shared. Is forcing player progression really the best way to develop a balanced game? I would argue that it is not.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 18, 2017 18:48:02 GMT -5
Knock it off.
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Feb 18, 2017 18:53:00 GMT -5
Jeez...Then let me be the first to declare that this game will be in permeant riot mode for a while...Cause the payouts are not going to be near that rich. Not even in the Champ or Legend leagues... No wonder Pix abolished the Farming community...they were out right getting looted... It's gonna be a while for the "you screwed us now we'll screw you" crowd to get tired and move along. Until then it's gonna be Complainer-ville around here. The biggest complainer I see around here is Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ . This one trick pony hasn't even thought up a new complaint in weeks. I fully agree with dredd about the MM and many of the comments and criticisms of Pixonic and the MM others have shared. Is forcing player progression really the best way to develop a balanced game? I would argue that it is not. Blow it out your waste orifice Blasternut...( shout out to DL) You are the typical internet know it all, second guessing every decision that Pix makes. How's about letting them do their thing, they made it this far by ignoring you. I'm guessing they will keep doing fine with out your divinely inspired omnipotent advice. Now back to the thread...Since I appreciate the OP position on this, it all comes down to the rewards...will it be enough.
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phoenix232
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Post by phoenix232 on Feb 18, 2017 20:30:16 GMT -5
Glad you came around, Dredd. You hit it right on the nose with human nature kicking in. Far too much leaving lately by people who just aren't motivated to play.. Maybe some good rewards would get them to stay, because I'm a firm believer that most of them are 'tanking' to get a few 5/10 Au wins.. A shame, since the community at large suffers because of it.
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Post by sonofsam on Feb 18, 2017 22:51:16 GMT -5
While disappointed in the metric chosen, I am neither a sandbagger or TT by any stretch, but the MM has leveled out for me and my matches are balanced and enjoyable for the most part. I like the new variety of bots I am facing. Yes, either the old MM could have been fixed easily or the new MM needs better metrics, but it's far from the end of the game. Same here!! I honestly don't see any of this sandbagging, smurfing, or whatever they want to call it. The games have been a blast lately with tough competition from all reds and blues. I did have one 4 on 5 recently and I can recall a guy who dropped, but it's rare. I do see 12/12s occasionally (got into a 5 person clan game with a couple of 12/12s on both sides), but nothing insane like all 12/12s and my lonely 8/9s. Do I only see top tier bots in my games.... yeah there are a lot of Griffs, Furies, Carnages, Lances, Rhinos, and Galahads (mine included), but there are also Geps, Gareths, and Stalkers with the occasional enterprising Cossack or Rogatka pilot. And Golems, Boas, Fujins,Raijins, and Leo's show up also. But let's face it some bots ARE better than others and some do get outclassed by others as you go up levels in weapons/bots. That is a natural progression. I really do hope that the new jackrabbit and gunslinger bots are not gold purchasable ever and can only be bought with league rewards. That is probably all the carrot that Pixonic needs. Dejnov Just curious what level you guys are. The reason I ask is I run 6/6 to 7/6.5 heavys do around 380k (going up) and I see tankers/smurffers all the time. It may just be that I am in the middle ground so that I catch the small bots on their way down and get their main hanger as they go back up. You may be above the level where it is really noticeable. I was hovering around 350 and saw it frequently. I did some testing and dropped below 300 because of it and it was everywhere. Now that I'm around 380ish I see less of it.
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bmc
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Post by bmc on Feb 18, 2017 23:57:08 GMT -5
I loved Rocky IV. Cabbage Patch, not so much. GI Joe kid all the way. Great read though.
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