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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 19, 2017 0:37:06 GMT -5
Same here!! I honestly don't see any of this sandbagging, smurfing, or whatever they want to call it. The games have been a blast lately with tough competition from all reds and blues. I did have one 4 on 5 recently and I can recall a guy who dropped, but it's rare. I do see 12/12s occasionally (got into a 5 person clan game with a couple of 12/12s on both sides), but nothing insane like all 12/12s and my lonely 8/9s. Do I only see top tier bots in my games.... yeah there are a lot of Griffs, Furies, Carnages, Lances, Rhinos, and Galahads (mine included), but there are also Geps, Gareths, and Stalkers with the occasional enterprising Cossack or Rogatka pilot. And Golems, Boas, Fujins,Raijins, and Leo's show up also. But let's face it some bots ARE better than others and some do get outclassed by others as you go up levels in weapons/bots. That is a natural progression. I really do hope that the new jackrabbit and gunslinger bots are not gold purchasable ever and can only be bought with league rewards. That is probably all the carrot that Pixonic needs. Dejnov Just curious what level you guys are. The reason I ask is I run 6/6 to 7/6.5 heavys do around 380k (going up) and I see tankers/smurffers all the time. It may just be that I am in the middle ground so that I catch the small bots on their way down and get their main hanger as they go back up. You may be above the level where it is really noticeable. I was hovering around 350 and saw it frequently. I did some testing and dropped below 300 because of it and it was everywhere. Now that I'm around 380ish I see less of it. Top bot is a 6/8.5 heavy, but I run a mixed weight hangar.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 1:54:05 GMT -5
7/9, 8/9, heading for 9/9 for a few
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Post by osang on Feb 19, 2017 6:10:49 GMT -5
The current matchmaking is flawed, and the clans disbanded because of this. There are clans running light/medium bots only that can't compete with heavy bots.
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Post by Dejnov on Feb 19, 2017 6:13:04 GMT -5
Just curious what level you guys are. The reason I ask is I run 6/6 to 7/6.5 heavys do around 380k (going up) and I see tankers/smurffers all the time. It may just be that I am in the middle ground so that I catch the small bots on their way down and get their main hanger as they go back up. You may be above the level where it is really noticeable. I was hovering around 350 and saw it frequently. I did some testing and dropped below 300 because of it and it was everywhere. Now that I'm around 380ish I see less of it. Running bots between 7-8 and weapons between 8-9 (one 5 weapon). Plan on moving my bots and weapons to 9/9 with bots first as now higher bot level is more important. Dejnov.
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Post by Pilot Moby_dic on Feb 19, 2017 6:43:18 GMT -5
MM is fine, people is not. The whole thing would be fixed very easily: matches you don't finish with at least 25% damage of the best player or 50% beacons of best capper simply don't get counted. Also, you have to wait for the match you leave to be finished before joining another. Tank that.And shouldn't be that hard to implement. Also, clans/friends. If you go and squad with 5 of your mates, you don't have tankers on your side. Spot on
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Post by lilryry on Feb 19, 2017 7:43:18 GMT -5
Very good post dredd, I'm like you in that the mm had pretty much been the same for me for the last few weeks which is just the constant up and down...which ironically enough took away any incentive for me to spend $$$ on this game, what's the point? I buy better weapons/bots and I will just get paired against better weapons/bots and I'm not going to tank my rating to get even matchups. I've played about 5 matches this morning and in 3 of them there were multiple bots standing at the starting beacon doing zero damage so I'm forced to leave the match as I don't feel like playing 3v6. I keep playing because the game itself is awesome but the mm keeps my play at a minimum and I spend no real money on the game in its current form, leagues may be something neat but I don't see it doing anything to combat the new mm which has been a failure from the start
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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 19, 2017 9:24:21 GMT -5
While tanking is one of the big problems with the current MM, I don't think fixing tanking alone will bring back the viabilty of Mediums. Many people really enjoy piloting mediums and they just don't seem to have a place at the table anymore. Plenty of premium lights for beacon capping and even more heavies, but the old favorite Ag mediums are like spotting a unicorn on the battlefield.
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Post by lilryry on Feb 19, 2017 9:56:32 GMT -5
While tanking is one of the big problems with the current MM, I don't think fixing tanking alone will bring back the viabilty of Mediums. Many people really enjoy piloting mediums and they just don't seem to have a place at the table anymore. Plenty of premium lights for beacon capping and even more heavies, but the old favorite Ag mediums are like spotting a unicorn on the battlefield. yea I'm forced to play griffins, I don't like griffins as they're slow and just not my style but unless I want to get worked over every match i can't play the bots I enjoy. Medium bots are just more fun all around, good firepower with decent mobility and with the size of a couple of the maps when I die/respawn I'm in the opposite side of the map and have a 2 minute walk just to get to the action which is super boring
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Post by SlowReflexes on Feb 19, 2017 10:31:00 GMT -5
While tanking is one of the big problems with the current MM, I don't think fixing tanking alone will bring back the viabilty of Mediums. Many people really enjoy piloting mediums and they just don't seem to have a place at the table anymore. Plenty of premium lights for beacon capping and even more heavies, but the old favorite Ag mediums are like spotting a unicorn on the battlefield. You could always play your mediums and just keep losing until they're viable. Eventually you should get down there. My junior clan members have good 7/8 hangars of mixed weights (they vary them depending on mood, but all of their stuff is sound). When they have losing streaks they see Golems, Vits and Boas again at least temporarily.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 19, 2017 10:46:53 GMT -5
While tanking is one of the big problems with the current MM, I don't think fixing tanking alone will bring back the viabilty of Mediums. Many people really enjoy piloting mediums and they just don't seem to have a place at the table anymore. Plenty of premium lights for beacon capping and even more heavies, but the old favorite Ag mediums are like spotting a unicorn on the battlefield. You could always play your mediums and just keep losing until they're viable. Eventually you should get down there. My junior clan members have good 7/8 hangars of mixed weights (they vary them depending on mood, but all of their stuff is sound). When they have losing streaks they see Golems, Vits and Boas again at least temporarily. That is the plan, they just seem to have a much more narrow band of viability then previously, and that's counter intuitive to me.
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Post by Dejnov on Feb 19, 2017 14:16:33 GMT -5
While tanking is one of the big problems with the current MM, I don't think fixing tanking alone will bring back the viabilty of Mediums. Many people really enjoy piloting mediums and they just don't seem to have a place at the table anymore. Plenty of premium lights for beacon capping and even more heavies, but the old favorite Ag mediums are like spotting a unicorn on the battlefield. I don't think this is a legitimate complaint. The average medium and light bots have lower damage outputs when compared to heavy bots. This is a forced function of number of weapon hard points and bot hit points (by duration in combat). IF you play all medium bots your damage will be less than a hangar of heavies... you will gravitate to a league ranking spot where the heavies are above you and the lights are below... even with 12/12 medium bots. The current matchmaker supports your all medium hangar... just remember those of us who are working to top tier will stomp through your league ranking on our way to the top ( but don't worry we won't stick around). Dejnov
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Post by SlowReflexes on Feb 19, 2017 14:27:13 GMT -5
You could always play your mediums and just keep losing until they're viable. Eventually you should get down there. My junior clan members have good 7/8 hangars of mixed weights (they vary them depending on mood, but all of their stuff is sound). When they have losing streaks they see Golems, Vits and Boas again at least temporarily. That is the plan, they just seem to have a much more narrow band of viability then previously, and that's counter intuitive to me. It is a shame. I still have a complete 4/6 medium hangar that I'd love to use, I just can't bear losing enough times to get to where it's viable.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 14:27:38 GMT -5
While tanking is one of the big problems with the current MM, I don't think fixing tanking alone will bring back the viabilty of Mediums. Many people really enjoy piloting mediums and they just don't seem to have a place at the table anymore. Plenty of premium lights for beacon capping and even more heavies, but the old favorite Ag mediums are like spotting a unicorn on the battlefield. yea I'm forced to play griffins, I don't like griffins as they're slow and just not my style but unless I want to get worked over every match i can't play the bots I enjoy. Medium bots are just more fun all around, good firepower with decent mobility and with the size of a couple of the maps when I die/respawn I'm in the opposite side of the map and have a 2 minute walk just to get to the action which is super boring Exactly. When I switched one of my Griffins for a Plasma Rhino, that thing didn't even last 30 seconds on the field.
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Feb 19, 2017 15:06:00 GMT -5
You could always play your mediums and just keep losing until they're viable. Eventually you should get down there. My junior clan members have good 7/8 hangars of mixed weights (they vary them depending on mood, but all of their stuff is sound). When they have losing streaks they see Golems, Vits and Boas again at least temporarily. Ok, you could. Let's see how that would work tho, shall we? I've played my best hangar for a while. To get back to viable mediums I've to lose, say, 10 to 15 games. Unless I'm a saint bound on suffering to espiate my sins, I'm going to tank those games, because 2 hours of hopeless battles are too much. Then I get to level... And I win a few and I lose a few. But look, my senior clanmates are on, I switch back to my other hangar and if I want to play mediums again it's on for another run to the bottom. It's tedious, impractical and bound to infuriate those you will abandon on the way who will see just another tanker.
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Post by SlowReflexes on Feb 19, 2017 18:38:52 GMT -5
You could always play your mediums and just keep losing until they're viable. Eventually you should get down there. My junior clan members have good 7/8 hangars of mixed weights (they vary them depending on mood, but all of their stuff is sound). When they have losing streaks they see Golems, Vits and Boas again at least temporarily. Ok, you could. Let's see how that would work tho, shall we? I've played my best hangar for a while. To get back to viable mediums I've to lose, say, 10 to 15 games. Unless I'm a saint bound on suffering to espiate my sins, I'm going to tank those games, because 2 hours of hopeless battles are to much. Then I get to level... And I win a few and I lose a few. But look, my senior classmates are on, I switch back to my other hangar and if I want to play mediums again it's on for another run to the bottom. It's tedious, impractical and bound to infuriate those you will abandon on the way who will see just another tanker. Of course it is. Why I haven't done it.
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Post by loren on Feb 21, 2017 14:54:08 GMT -5
The biggest complainer I see around here is __ . This one trick pony hasn't even thought up a new complaint in weeks. I fully agree with dredd about the MM and many of the comments and criticisms of Pixonic and the MM others have shared. Is forcing player progression really the best way to develop a balanced game? I would argue that it is not. Blow it out your waste orifice Blasternut...( shout out to DL) You are the typical internet know it all, second guessing every decision that Pix makes. How's about letting them do their thing, they made it this far by ignoring you. I'm guessing they will keep doing fine with out your divinely inspired omnipotent advice. Now back to the thread...Since I appreciate the OP position on this, it all comes down to the rewards...will it be enough. Take away the reason for clubbing and tanking then a good bit of this problem goes away. Pix already has a good system in place with the Au rewards for newbies as they level up. I agree with Dredd77 I don't think reward increase will solve this, keep the Au rewards as is for matches but only have it for the higher tiers. This will force anyone who plays for Au into the higher tier, decreasing rewards on the lower end will help prevent newbie Au farming. Risk vs. Reward. Loren Also not sure what to make of your sun and rainbow Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 21, 2017 14:59:52 GMT -5
While tanking is one of the big problems with the current MM, I don't think fixing tanking alone will bring back the viabilty of Mediums. Many people really enjoy piloting mediums and they just don't seem to have a place at the table anymore. Plenty of premium lights for beacon capping and even more heavies, but the old favorite Ag mediums are like spotting a unicorn on the battlefield. I don't think this is a legitimate complaint. The average medium and light bots have lower damage outputs when compared to heavy bots. This is a forced function of number of weapon hard points and bot hit points (by duration in combat). IF you play all medium bots your damage will be less than a hangar of heavies... you will gravitate to a league ranking spot where the heavies are above you and the lights are below... even with 12/12 medium bots. The current matchmaker supports your all medium hangar... just remember those of us who are working to top tier will stomp through your league ranking on our way to the top ( but don't worry we won't stick around). Dejnov This is exactly my experience. I run a combination of Boa, Gala, Gary, Carny, Fuji, and whatever else I decide to throw in there, depending on the day. I have had very consistent matches in the 400-425k damage range up to this point. And I have been competitive with the heavy hangars that have the same damage averages that make up the majority of my matches.
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Post by Dejnov on Feb 21, 2017 20:34:16 GMT -5
I don't think this is a legitimate complaint. The average medium and light bots have lower damage outputs when compared to heavy bots. This is a forced function of number of weapon hard points and bot hit points (by duration in combat). IF you play all medium bots your damage will be less than a hangar of heavies... you will gravitate to a league ranking spot where the heavies are above you and the lights are below... even with 12/12 medium bots. The current matchmaker supports your all medium hangar... just remember those of us who are working to top tier will stomp through your league ranking on our way to the top ( but don't worry we won't stick around). Dejnov This is exactly my experience. I run a combination of Boa, Gala, Gary, Carny, Fuji, and whatever else I decide to throw in there, depending on the day. I have had very consistent matches in the 400-425k damage range up to this point. And I have been competitive with the heavy hangars that have the same damage averages that make up the majority of my matches. And as it should be. The new metric is damage output which could easily be a hangar of 10-11 mediums vs. a hangar of 8-9s heavies (as a made up example). Are those all heavies against your experienced medium hangar yes! But they are lower level and as they're upgraded, their damage output goes up and they should eclipse your band and not bother you anymore. Is this a 'fair' match. I believe so. It's as fair as you can get with so much variance in damage output and damage sustainability. At the end if you ignore how someone is doing damage and instead focus on the amount you get a fairly fair game. Much fairer than level 1/12 geps running through bronze clubbing with impunity and doing 800k damage which was more than everyone else combined!!! When you do see a heavy he should be lower level than you and once he's the same level he'll move up the damage rankings and out of your band as if he's piloted as well as the medium player he should put up better damage numbers. If he doesn't... then that's a function of lack of skill. Will you still rubberband? Yeah because Pixonic prioritizes quick pickup games over fully balanced, but that should not be every single game (nor the majority). I believe the only time it will become the majority is when you're heading into high gold top tier as I believe the player field is much more scarce there and they can't always get full 6 on 6 games of 12/12 top tier hangars... so they'll pick up a lower person to make the game happen. Everyone will be forced into higher tier games every so often, because the numbers of players dwindles as you move up bot and weapon levels... nothing else. Dejnov.
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tagnal
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Post by tagnal on Feb 21, 2017 20:41:57 GMT -5
With the release of Leagues and the rewards for advancing into higher level leagues, does the changes in MM make more sense now?
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Post by carnage on Feb 22, 2017 4:02:32 GMT -5
No it doesn't solve anything, AKA unbalance of robots on the field, impossibility to use various hangars to change gamestyle, and so on.
But while they don't solve the MM per say, leagues are still a cool addition to the game I'd say.
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Post by lilryry on Feb 22, 2017 5:35:54 GMT -5
No it doesn't solve anything, AKA unbalance of robots on the field, impossibility to use various hangars to change gamestyle, and so on. But while they don't solve the MM per say, leagues are still a cool addition to the game I'd say. this is correct, leagues seem like something I will like but they do nothing to combat the seriously flawed mm
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Post by lilryry on Feb 22, 2017 6:47:27 GMT -5
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Post by RightOn on Feb 22, 2017 7:24:19 GMT -5
No doubt he was tanking stats
I can walk into a match and breathe and people are falling over. I can carry teams but some 3 or 4 blues that are incapable of doing anything at all just kinda throw a wrench in that idea. I can grab beacons or kill, or even try both, but I can't teleport...
In the old MM I could just expect to play TT all day, which I prefer, not hang with these clueless individuals...
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Post by Conflict's Student on Feb 22, 2017 8:14:23 GMT -5
This is why I dislike this mm, not only are this persons bots higher level but their damage/kills are obscene but the mm apparently doesn't see any difference between us...that winning streak though :/ I think the only problem the new MM created regarding that guy is that now he's facing you instead of destroying newbies. Clearly he's been abusing exploits for quite some time (237 game win streak is the first indicator, <400k avg damage with that hangar is another) and no matter what a developer does, that guy is going find a way to abuse others for personal enjoyment. Playas gonna play and 「bum-bum chapeau」s gonna 「bum-bum chapeau」.
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Post by RightOn on Feb 22, 2017 8:25:19 GMT -5
I know I've seen R2 posted on this forum. He's a notorious Android player isn't he? I'm iOS.... whenever I see Adrian I chase him down XD
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Post by lilryry on Feb 22, 2017 8:43:00 GMT -5
This is why I dislike this mm, not only are this persons bots higher level but their damage/kills are obscene but the mm apparently doesn't see any difference between us...that winning streak though :/ I think the only problem the new MM created regarding that guy is that now he's facing you instead of destroying newbies. Â Clearly he's been abusing exploits for quite some time (237 game win streak is the first indicator, <400k avg damage with that hangar is another) and no matter what a developer does, that guy is going find a way to abuse others for personal enjoyment. Â Playas gonna play and 「bum-bum chapeau」s gonna 「bum-bum chapeau」. Â so basically the new mm solved zero issues, it just dir free the same issues at different ppl...it's actually pretty simple, he has a 9/12 hanger so he should only be going up against 9/12ish hangers. This isn't a hard concept and I would argue the new mm is flawed more than the last on because in theory this guy could tank to the point he's facing newbies with that hanger where as before the tier system would've prevented that from happening
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Post by Conflict's Student on Feb 22, 2017 8:56:22 GMT -5
so basically the new mm solved zero issues, it just dir free the same issues at different ppl...it's actually pretty simple, he has a 9/12 hanger so he should only be going up against 9/12ish hangers. This isn't a hard concept and I would argue the new mm is flawed more than the last on because in theory this guy could tank to the point he's facing newbies with that hanger where as before the tier system would've prevented that from happening Except I'm pretty sure he also has (and has used) a full 4/6, 4/9, and/or 4/12 hangar full of trimag/triaphid gepards. And Taranasaurus Rogatkas. And the resources to build whatever other hangar he needs to exploit whatever MM is in place next (P2W). The tier system obviously didn't prevent him from racking up a 237-win streak (which I'm betting was much easier under the old MM than it is now) in the first place. The problem isn't the old MM or the new MM, it's simply people behaving badly. No recommendation for how the MM 'ought' to work is going to solve fundamental problems of human behavior - at best, you could funnel bad behavior in a certain direction. I would endorse long-term tracking of exploit abuse to inform a MM that tends to group exploiters against each other while generally removing them from the overall player pool. It would necessarily be slow to respond to new exploits, but once a player develops "bad karma" from exploit abuse it should also be slow to recover.
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Post by critter667 on Feb 22, 2017 9:03:34 GMT -5
The tier system did not improve this. The tier system meant a person could abuse the system simply by switching bots on their hangar. They kept a set of low bot level/high weapon level bots and could drop at any point. In fact, in the old system the person never had to worry. They always had an instant way down.
In the new system, you must tank to drop rate. A person must now spend time, log in, join matches, and drop. It is an active task. So in the old system people could seal club with no effort. With the new system, people must actively tank.
Now whether this is an improvement is a batter of preference. I view it as better. It requires work to tank. Those who are lazy will either quit the game or stop clubbing and just play. Only the diehards will waste time tanking. I think that means less tankers/clubbers over all, which is good. Is it perfect, no. But at least in my mind, forcing an active path to tank instead of a passive system that was automatic, is an improvement.
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 22, 2017 9:04:56 GMT -5
I know I've seen R2 posted on this forum. He's a notorious Android player isn't he? I'm iOS.... whenever I see Adrian I chase him down XD I've seen R2 also, but my team beat him. Though I was annoyed by his 1 million points and mostly lvl 11-12 weapons. Also this guy's hangar doomed my team, look at those stats though.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 22, 2017 9:05:15 GMT -5
I think the only problem the new MM created regarding that guy is that now he's facing you instead of destroying newbies. Â Clearly he's been abusing exploits for quite some time (237 game win streak is the first indicator, <400k avg damage with that hangar is another) and no matter what a developer does, that guy is going find a way to abuse others for personal enjoyment. Â Playas gonna play and 「bum-bum chapeau」s gonna 「bum-bum chapeau」. Â so basically the new mm solved zero issues, it just dir free the same issues at different ppl...it's actually pretty simple, he has a 9/12 hanger so he should only be going up against 9/12ish hangers. This isn't a hard concept and I would argue the new mm is flawed more than the last on because in theory this guy could tank to the point he's facing newbies with that hanger where as before the tier system would've prevented that from happening For the brief period the league was live and the clear Au benifits of playing your best could be seen, it was clear that the advantage and amount of tanking was going to be reduced. There will still be tankers, just like there were clubbers, but even the 4/12 geppard clans of lore were nothing more than an occasional annoyance.
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