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Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 13, 2017 16:53:34 GMT -5
Uninstalls and bad ratings from who? The newbs getting smashed by tankers? Doubtful. The tankers who can't exploit the "feature"? I doubt Pix is going to care as you're not part of the paying player base (hence your gold farming). If anything they might just applaud because the "new" players you're no longer smashing may become an "actual" paying player since their game enjoyment would go up. On the contrary, noobs will get penalized for not understanding this convoluted "reliability rating" or the various penalties that others have proposed. Noobs will quit. Imposing penalties won't fix the MM. ONLY fixing the MM will fix the MM. That has been my point all along. I have spent actual money on this game but why not get extra premium currency while farming cups for my clan ranking? Again, this doesn't make sense to me. Newbs aren't tanking matches, so how/why would they be penalized? Penalties would be aimed at preventing players like you from slumming it with the newbs, not the other way around. As is, low level players are still learning the game, so I highly doubt they're dumping matches (in general) to lower their mm score. They're just trying to enjoy the game as is, so I highly doubt they'd be penalized. |
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 17:04:23 GMT -5
Sometimes newbs get very low damage and no beacons.
Sometimes newbs leave matches.
Sometimes noobs stand around idly and do nothing.
Sometimes noobs run hangars of all low level bots.
They'd be penalized at a higher rate than any other group of players.
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[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
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Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 13, 2017 17:08:34 GMT -5
The match scores of newer players are likely to be approximately normally distributed (i.e., have a bell curve) around a very low score and could very easily be distinguished from tanker/clubbers getting many very good scores and many very bad scores, resulting in a rather unnatural bimodal distribution (i.e., having two peaks). It would be very easy for Pix to tell them apart.
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Post by ChillyTempurrrrr on Feb 13, 2017 17:17:46 GMT -5
Sometimes newbs get very low damage and no beacons. Sometimes newbs leave matches. Sometimes noobs stand around idly and do nothing. Sometimes noobs run hangars of all low-level bots. They'd be penalized at a higher rate than any other group of players. literally never did any of those except the last one (cause I can't magically start with high-level bots can I?) |
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 13, 2017 17:31:21 GMT -5
Sometimes newbs get very low damage and no beacons. Sometimes newbs leave matches. Sometimes noobs stand around idly and do nothing. Sometimes noobs run hangars of all low-level bots. They'd be penalized at a higher rate than any other group of players. literally never did any of those except the last one (cause I can't magically start with high-level bots can I?) Perfectly said Chilly. I simply don't see newb players actively dumping matches to drop their MM score. Sorry, I just don't. Low damage and beacons is meaningless if they hang in throughout the entire match. A penalized (forced wait time) for leaving a match would not touch them. The only people affected by a forced "sit out" time would be people leaving matches with 0 dam/beacons to lower their mm score. blast, I take your resistance to the idea of a enforced "sit out time" to match tanking as a sign that this would absolutely discourage you from dumping matches. Hence it sounds like a viable option to curbing match dropping... |
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 18:00:23 GMT -5
Sometimes newbs get very low damage and no beacons. Sometimes newbs leave matches. Sometimes noobs stand around idly and do nothing. Sometimes noobs run hangars of all low-level bots. They'd be penalized at a higher rate than any other group of players. literally never did any of those except the last one (cause I can't magically start with high-level bots can I?) Start penalizing idle bots and people will run their hangar full of lvl 1 unarmed destriers straight into the Red spawn. How do you penalize that scenario? kick those players. no other way. |
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 18:06:12 GMT -5
blast, I take your resistance to the idea of a enforced "sit out time" to match tanking as a sign that this would absolutely discourage you from dumping matches. Hence it sounds like a viable option to curbing match dropping... A forced sit-out period would make people quit. And it can be easily gamed. And it doesn't fix the broken MM. Thats why it is not a good thing to implement. |
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 13, 2017 18:39:47 GMT -5
blast, I take your resistance to the idea of a enforced "sit out time" to match tanking as a sign that this would absolutely discourage you from dumping matches. Hence it sounds like a viable option to curbing match dropping... A forced sit-out period would make people quit. And it can be easily gamed. And it doesn't fix the broken MM. Thats why it is not a good thing to implement. Who would quit? People dropping matches purely to lower their mm matchups? Dunno what to say to those players "tanking" other than... bye. Generally, brand new players are still gauging whether they like War Robots. They're not dropping matches, they're playing and learning. I seriously doubt they'd be affected by a sit out timer if they're playing every match they start. Actually, being forced to play matches through does the opposite and fixes MM. Player skill would be properly captured and applied to the mm algorithms. Tanking only hurts MM and doesn't allow it to properly place you. This in turn tilts matches in the lower end, this creating more imbalance in mm. |
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 18:58:56 GMT -5
KaneoheGrown so you think that forcing players to stay in matches will fix a MM that penalizes skilled pilots by making them face much stronger opponents until their winrate is 50%. Well there is no point in trying to use logic to change your mind.
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Feb 13, 2017 19:12:06 GMT -5
Tick Tock...Pix has probably already thought of most of this thread...Lets see where the big wheel lands...  |
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[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
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Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 13, 2017 19:19:28 GMT -5
As have been covered numerous times in other MM threads, this MM doesn't force anyone's win rate to 50%. The stated goal of Elo-like MMs is to attempt to find competition matching your hangar and skill level so that the expected *odds* of you winning any given match is around 50% before the match starts. Note that if you steadily improve your skill level and hangar, you will always remain above what it expects you will be able to do.
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 13, 2017 19:52:29 GMT -5
KaneoheGrown so you think that forcing players to stay in matches will fix a MM that penalizes skilled pilots by making them face much stronger opponents until their winrate is 50%. Well there is no point in trying to use logic to change your mind. To be honest, top tier players generally have win rates in the 50-60% range (higher when you run squads). The level of competition in top tier is fairly level, meaning earning above average win rates (70%+) is fairly uncommon. Sorry to burst your bubble, but skilled pilots at the top end of spectrum are used to average win rates and (maybe) 5 au per match. If you think that this is unacceptable you're going to be in for a big disappointment moving forward. As is, even if you get to top tier you're going to be in close to the same boat you're in now (it's just everyone has "same" level equipment, rather than one or two players clubbing everyone else). This is why I don't get a lot of the griping. As someone who regularly plays maxed players I'm used to the game being this way. I'm used to the Tri fury hordes, Lance rushes (and before that the Rhino rush) and all other forms of play that the game offers. I was pitted against max players when I had a 6/9 hangar back when they got rid of bronze/silver/gold and made the low/high split of bronze/silver/gold. I've gone through much of what's been happening, just half a year ago. The thing is I kept leveling and learning, and I'm a much better player for it. I think the issue is largely players who were content to sit in a "safe" spot of the old MM are resentful that they're forced to progress. I get it, but it doesn't mean I sympathize. In the end, the old MM is gone.... period. If your choice is to tank to remain competitive, so be it. I don't care what YOU do, I care about the unsuspecting newb you're smashing by tanking. |
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 20:00:49 GMT -5
KaneoheGrown so you think that forcing players to stay in matches will fix a MM that penalizes skilled pilots by making them face much stronger opponents until their winrate is 50%. Well there is no point in trying to use logic to change your mind. To be honest, top tier players generally have win rates in the 50-60% range (higher when you run squads). The level of competition in top tier is fairly level, meaning earning above average win rates (70%+) is fairly uncommon. Sorry to burst your bubble, but skilled pilots at the top end of spectrum are used to average win rates and (maybe) 5 au per match. If you think that this is unacceptable you're going to be in for a big disappointment moving forward. As is, even if you get to top tier you're going to be in close to the same boat you're in now (it's just everyone has "same" level equipment, rather than one or two players clubbing everyone else). This is why I don't get a lot of the griping. As someone who regularly plays maxed players I'm used to the game being this way. I'm used to the Tri fury hordes, Lance rushes (and before that the Rhino rush) and all other forms of play that the game offers. I was pitted against max players when I had a 6/9 hangar back when they got rid of bronze/silver/gold and made the low/high split of bronze/silver/gold. I've gone through much of what's been happening, just half a year ago. The thing is I kept leveling and learning, and I'm a much better player for it. I think the issue is largely players who were content to sit in a "safe" spot of the old MM are resentful that they're forced to progress. I get it, but it doesn't mean I sympathize. In the end, the old MM is gone.... period. If your choice is to tank to remain competitive, so be it. I don't care what YOU do, I care about the unsuspecting newb you're smashing by tanking. All I learned from this rant is that you were a mediocre pilot before the MM change, so the change didn't really affect you at all because you are used to 50% win rates. If you really cared about newbs you'd tank matches down to my level and protect them. |
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 13, 2017 20:13:59 GMT -5
*shrug* I know my skillset, and i know what top tier play is like (because I'm actually there). Are you?
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Post by DirtyLikaRat® on Feb 13, 2017 20:23:28 GMT -5
So how do folks, like my "connect challenged" little self, fit in? Folks that get sent to their hangar every few games... Or have such awful connections that they forced to drop. What you'll end up with is worse than someone droppin and havin one less player on the field... You'll have folks sittin in a lagged out bot, froze and unfroze every few seconds, refusing to leave so they don't get penalized, and basically jus gettin in the way. Should Pixo code in some sort of network monitoring system, to record, analyze, and differentiate between intentional, douchers droppin and those that have connect issues, in real time? Hell, Im not an astrophysicist like that dude that jus joined the forum other day, but sounds complicated... Maybe I just need to drive town more often and use the library's WiFi.
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 13, 2017 20:31:03 GMT -5
So how do folks, like my "connect challenged" little self, fit in? Folks that get sent to their hangar every few games... Or have such awful connections that they forced to drop. What you'll end up with is worse than someone droppin and havin one less player on the field... You'll have folks sittin in a lagged out bot, froze and unfroze every few seconds, refusing to leave so they don't get penalized, and basically jus gettin in the way. Should Pixo code in some sort of network monitoring system, to record, analyze, and differentiate between intentional, douchers droppin and those that have connect issues, in real time? Hell, Im not an astrophysicist like that dude that jus joined the forum other day, but sounds complicated... Maybe I just need to drive town more often and use the library's WiFi. It's certainly possible for the server to note differences between intermittent communication between itself and a user vs someone repeatedly hitting the leave match button over and over from the start of the match. To a certain extent this happens already. Note that bad lag spikes only display the War Robots banner initially, and gives you the "return to hangar" button when it's having major issues reconnecting you to the match. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 20:44:12 GMT -5
While I believe that everyone should just play and not intentionally quit, I suspect Pix is not overly concerned. Their metrics for viewing things are likely measured in total downloads, total game volume, user volume, revenues and P&L, and maybe they watch their app ratings in the download stores. Unless something swings those metrics dramatically, I suspect individual win rates and whether players "tank" means little to the overall health of the game.
I am surprised that people would spend real time joining and quitting matches, just so they can then play a series of games at a later time with better equipment than their competition, but to each their own.
I don't really subscribe to the argument that tanking is directly affecting my games though. Quitters happen on each side, red or blue, and if causes me to win *or lose* a match where the outcome might have been otherwise, so be it. I tend to value my beacons/kills/damage outputs more than I value my win/loss % in this game.
I play pickup soccer every week at the local university. There are old guys like me, and young grad students. People in different levels of shape, with different skill sets. Even some girls play with us, and some are quite skilled. So everyone is running "different hangar levels" so to speak. The teams are not always equal, and most of us don't keep score. We play for fun, to hone and demonstrate skill, and the camaraderie. Also, i need to keep in shape, but that benefit does not transfer to War Robots. Anyway, my point is I view things in War Robots in a similar fashion. If I play well, and do my job, and have fun, it doesn't really matter if the team with more players got more goals.
Sorry for the tangent. Cheers.
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Post by Pilot Moby_dic on Feb 14, 2017 2:25:35 GMT -5
SATmaster728 don't you think it's time that you and Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ just admit the the MM is the problem. Fixing the MM would be much simpler than imposing penalties for an infinite combination of unwanted player behaviors which are all caused by a flawed MM. The MM is dead, long live the MM |
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Post by Heishiro on Feb 14, 2017 2:53:25 GMT -5
they already implement the penalty
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 14, 2017 10:06:46 GMT -5
they already implement the penalty There is a "penalty" for lvl 30 players running lvl 1 bots. But who does that really penalize? Only the TT players who wind up with the lvl 1 bot guy on their squad. |
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Post by porcupyne on Feb 17, 2017 18:46:07 GMT -5
From my own experience I'm not convinced clubbers are damaging profits.
Pre-new-MM I played for ages and never spent a penny. It wasn't until my Golem/Vit hanger was getting hammered by endless visits to Rhinopolis that I finally caved and decided to start getting some Rhinos just so I could compete.
Unable to win any battles, I paid for the gold needed to keep the workshop running at maximum, the upgrades going continuously, while also buying the Orkans. When it didn't make that much difference I decided to try farming silver tier awhile.
This was around when the Geps w/mags problem became an epidemic. It was clear that the only way to stand a chance in low silver was to fill my hanger with them and rather than flounder and scrimp and save, I paid the money to get a couple of geps to allow me to start farming, which quickly let me fill my hanger with geps, which then let me farm in order to start creating a real hanger (galahads, rhinos, stalker).
So my point is, at least for me, getting clubbed is what caused me to spend real money on the game when otherwise I would have been happy to keep bumbling along for free (and I spent money to get the very bots that were pissing me off and which I was sick of the sight of).
And whatever system is put in place to punish tanking, people will find a way around it because people want the currency that comes from it (or the boner from stomping noobz). Penalty if you quit within a minute? Fine, stay to 1 min 5 secs. Penalty for just sitting there? Fine, snag one beacon, maybe two and then quit. Penalty for quitting three times in a row? Fine, tank two, snag a token beacons, maybe release one volley for some token damage and then quit to reset.
Enhancing rewards for staying in the battle to the end would be more effective. If staying in the game is just little more profitable than tanking2club, the fact that you're actually playing the game rather than sitting there tapping enter/quit/enter/quit might at least convince a few more people to commit to the match rather than bail.
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