|
Post by SATmaster728 on Feb 13, 2017 14:20:02 GMT -5
Tracking the leaving/idle stat is important here cause the ones with the similar leave/game idle percentages get matched together regardless of damage. The tankers and idle can tank and screw themselves . The guys with low leave/idle rates that actually play this game would battle each other again. Start penalizing idle bots and people will run their hangar full of lvl 1 unarmed destriers straight into the Red spawn. How do you penalize that scenario? kick those players. no other way.
|
|
|
Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 14:24:49 GMT -5
SATmaster728 don't you think it's time that you and Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ just admit the the MM is the problem. Fixing the MM would be much simpler than imposing penalties for an infinite combination of unwanted player behaviors which are all caused by a flawed MM.
|
|
[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
Aurora Clan Moderator
Posts: 729
Karma: 556
Platform: Android
Clan: leader of Aurora Nova [AurN]
League: Gold
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bishop from Aliens, although WALL-E is a close second
|
Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 13, 2017 14:27:24 GMT -5
Tracking the leaving/idle stat is important here cause the ones with the similar leave/game idle percentages get matched together regardless of damage. The tankers and idle can tank and screw themselves . The guys with low leave/idle rates that actually play this game would battle each other again. Start penalizing idle bots and people will run their hangar full of lvl 1 unarmed destriers straight into the Red spawn. How do you penalize that scenario? Note that this activity is also costly in terms of time. Playing a bunch of matches with zero rewards averaged with a bunch of matches with higher-than-average rewards earns the same as a bunch of matches with average rewards. Probably less, actually, since the rewards for such activity will likely be far lower than a typical match where a player just does poorly or is unlucky. Plus, your stats will be far less attractive to the better clans, as zero rewards also means zero cups. Most clans would probably prefer their players to spend their playing time more productively. Not to mention that it doesn’t exactly speak very well about one’s character...
|
|
|
Post by SATmaster728 on Feb 13, 2017 14:33:09 GMT -5
SATmaster728 don't you think it's time that you and Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ just admit the the MM is the problem. Fixing the MM would be much simpler than imposing penalties for an infinite combination of unwanted player behaviors which are all caused by a flawed MM. they just tryed to fix it. give it some time. be like yoda.
|
|
|
Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 14:35:05 GMT -5
Start penalizing idle bots and people will run their hangar full of lvl 1 unarmed destriers straight into the Red spawn. How do you penalize that scenario? Note that this activity is also costly in terms of time. Playing a bunch of matches with zero rewards averaged with a bunch of matches with higher-than-average rewards earns the same as a bunch of matches with average rewards. Plus, your stats will be far less attractive to the better clans, as zero rewards also means zero cups. Most clans would probably prefer their players to spend their playing time more productively. Not to mention that it doesn’t exactly speak very well about one’s character... That would make sense if Cups were averaged over a certain number of matches. But they aren't. All you have to do is play 50 matches to get your averages up then join a clan and return to tanking every so often. Your cups will still be great but your avg. damage and winrate will be down. I don't see why a clan would care what these stats are because they don't matter for clan ranking. As long as you run your TT hangar in squad battles, tanking is a total non-factor as far as clans are concerned.
|
|
|
Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 14:36:32 GMT -5
SATmaster728 don't you think it's time that you and Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ just admit the the MM is the problem. Fixing the MM would be much simpler than imposing penalties for an infinite combination of unwanted player behaviors which are all caused by a flawed MM. they just tryed to fix it. give it some time. be like yoda. I can already tell you it didnt work. Players will exploit any MM system not based off of equipment strength.
|
|
[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
Aurora Clan Moderator
Posts: 729
Karma: 556
Platform: Android
Clan: leader of Aurora Nova [AurN]
League: Gold
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bishop from Aliens, although WALL-E is a close second
|
Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 13, 2017 14:39:17 GMT -5
Cups are a total over a certain number of matches, but ranking by total and average are mathematically equivalent. For two positive numbers a and b and a nonzero c, if a > b, then a/c > b/c. Try it in a spreadsheet if you don't believe me.
Cups would be higher without tanking because you earn more cups in a typical badly played match than an intentionally badly played match. Also, bad matches would occur less often on average than for a player intentionally playing bad matches. This means that a clan that discourages tanking would do better than a clan that encourages tanking.
|
|
|
Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 14:44:09 GMT -5
Cups are a total over a certain number of matches, but ranking by total and average are mathematically equivalent. For two positive numbers a and b and a nonzero c, if a > b, then a/c > b/c. Try it in a spreadsheet if you don't believe me. Cups would be higher without tanking because you earn more cups in a typical badly played match than an intentionally badly played match. Also, bad matches would occur less often on average than for a player intentionally playing bad matches. This means that a clan that discourages tanking would do better than a clan that encourages tanking. Cup are a total over the past 14 days. If they are averaged as you believe, tanking is still better. A player that normally only gets 2 or 3 cups per match can easily get 7 per match after tanking.
|
|
[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
Aurora Clan Moderator
Posts: 729
Karma: 556
Platform: Android
Clan: leader of Aurora Nova [AurN]
League: Gold
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bishop from Aliens, although WALL-E is a close second
|
Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 13, 2017 14:45:38 GMT -5
Yes, you are correct, but note that my point still holds. A ranking based on average average over 14 days is equivalent to a ranking based on total over 14 days. When you divide every number by 14, the ranking doesn't change.
|
|
|
Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 14:46:32 GMT -5
Yes, you are correct, but note that my point still holds. A ranking based on average average over 14 days is equivalent to a ranking based on total over 14 days. When you divide every number by 14, the ranking doesn't change. yeah but you can tank a match in 20s compared to the 5-10 minutes of playing a regular match. Here is some maths. Play 10 matches normally and get 3 cups per match = 30 cups Spend 10 minutes tanking then play 9 matches normally and get 6 cups per match = 54 cups The highest ranked clans in the old MM were clubbers for a reason. With the new MM they will be tankers.
|
|
[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
Aurora Clan Moderator
Posts: 729
Karma: 556
Platform: Android
Clan: leader of Aurora Nova [AurN]
League: Gold
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bishop from Aliens, although WALL-E is a close second
|
Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 13, 2017 14:57:42 GMT -5
Well, I think your math is correct, but I think the easy solution is to subtract cups for tanking. It's easy to calculate the expected distribution of quality of a player's matches. Results outside that should be rare outlier events. When they occur too often to be outliers, something is clearly up.
If they changed MM to stop clubbing, they'll probably do it again to stop tanking, especially when it is the new top complaint of the game, especially since tankers are tanking as an alternative to spending money. In that sense, this activity is even more unattractive to Pixonic than Gepard-buyers in the old MM.
|
|
[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
Aurora Clan Moderator
Posts: 729
Karma: 556
Platform: Android
Clan: leader of Aurora Nova [AurN]
League: Gold
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bishop from Aliens, although WALL-E is a close second
|
Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 13, 2017 15:01:28 GMT -5
Oh, and in the long run, a player learns a lot more from one single regular loss than from an intentional loss and an easy win combined.
|
|
|
Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Feb 13, 2017 15:05:07 GMT -5
The leaving/idle stat can become the 'reliability rating'...Your trust score so to speak. Once your trust score goes beyond a certain point it becomes the only stat the MM sees and places you in purgatory...You get placed with other flakes and knaves. It would be like a detention league for the half wits...
|
|
[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
Aurora Clan Moderator
Posts: 729
Karma: 556
Platform: Android
Clan: leader of Aurora Nova [AurN]
League: Gold
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bishop from Aliens, although WALL-E is a close second
|
Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 13, 2017 15:09:16 GMT -5
Also, everything blastronaut has said has confirmed what I surmised earlier: "The problem here is not the opinion, it’s the (lack of) reasoning behind the opinion — which is probably because the real reason is that they want to be able to continue gaming the system. If so, that’s obviously a self-serving reason that would clearly not be in the best interest of the game or the community."
|
|
|
Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 15:15:49 GMT -5
Also, everything blastronaut has said has confirmed what I surmised earlier: "The problem here is not the opinion, it’s the (lack of) reasoning behind the opinion — which is probably because the real reason is that they want to be able to continue gaming the system. If so, that’s obviously a self-serving reason that would clearly not be in the best interest of the game or the community." Wrong yet again. I want Pixonic to change the MM into something that is fair and not easily exploited. Penalizing leavers is just a bandaid for the current broken MM that won't solve the problem. You can look down on tankers from your high horse, but we will average more gold and more cups than you per hour spent gaming. I'm not going to fall behind everyone else because of an imaginary set of ethics y'all have for how to play an online game.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 15:19:18 GMT -5
The leaving/idle stat can become the 'reliability rating'...Your trust score so to speak. Once your trust score goes beyond a certain point it becomes the only stat the MM sees and places you in purgatory...You get placed with other flakes and knaves. It would be like a detention league for the half wits... This is an idea I've mulled over more than a few times. But I'd use the reliability rating to determine whether or not a player is eligible for match rewards. If you drop too low, then you have to work yourself back into good standing before you can start earning Au again. Done right, that would pretty much kill tanking.
|
|
|
Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 13, 2017 15:20:26 GMT -5
Easiest implementation is to apply a timeout on multiple games left. Give 2 freebie drops, then enforce a 30 sec penalty before you're allowed to hit the "Join Battle" button. Increase the delay exponentially to further disincentive use (eg, 30 sec, 1 min, 2 min, 4 minutes, etc). Reset the ability to immediately drop into matches after 5 consecutive matches are played (start to finish, or bot out).
It's all about incentives. Either play as intended or be forced into a situation that makes you quit/uninstall. A few individuals (purposely) creating a match that is un-fun for other players legitimately trying to have fun should be discouraged. I'm all for a penalty...
|
|
|
Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 15:22:18 GMT -5
Easiest implementation is to apply a timeout on multiple games left. Give 2 freebie drops, then enforce a 30 penalty before you're allowed to hit the "Join Battle" button. Increase the delay exponentially to further disincentive use (eg, 30 sec, 1 min, 2 min, 4 minutes, etc). Reset the ability to immediately drop into matches after 5 consecutive matches are played (start to finish, or bot out). It's all about incentives. Either play as intended or be forced into a situation that makes you quit/uninstall. A few individuals (purposely) creating a match that is un-fun for other players legitimately trying to have fun should be discouraged. I'm all for a penalty... Pixonic doesn't want to push people out of the game. They would rather have them leave a bunch of matches than not play at all. They would never implement this.
|
|
|
Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 13, 2017 15:25:30 GMT -5
Easiest implementation is to apply a timeout on multiple games left. Give 2 freebie drops, then enforce a 30 penalty before you're allowed to hit the "Join Battle" button. Increase the delay exponentially to further disincentive use (eg, 30 sec, 1 min, 2 min, 4 minutes, etc). Reset the ability to immediately drop into matches after 5 consecutive matches are played (start to finish, or bot out). It's all about incentives. Either play as intended or be forced into a situation that makes you quit/uninstall. A few individuals (purposely) creating a match that is un-fun for other players legitimately trying to have fun should be discouraged. I'm all for a penalty... Pixonic doesn't want to push people out of the game. They would rather have them leave a bunch of matches than not play at all. They would never implement this. Why? The people dropping matches are trying to game the system to farm gold, rather than purchase premium currency. How is it in Pix's best interests to allow Au farming? How is it their best interests to allow someone to tank matches to smash their "new" players? I get you're frustrated that you lost your Au piggy bank, but you're looking at this through the lens of what's best for "you" and not the player community as a whole.
|
|
[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
Aurora Clan Moderator
Posts: 729
Karma: 556
Platform: Android
Clan: leader of Aurora Nova [AurN]
League: Gold
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bishop from Aliens, although WALL-E is a close second
|
Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 13, 2017 15:26:20 GMT -5
Also, everything blastronaut has said has confirmed what I surmised earlier: "The problem here is not the opinion, it’s the (lack of) reasoning behind the opinion — which is probably because the real reason is that they want to be able to continue gaming the system. If so, that’s obviously a self-serving reason that would clearly not be in the best interest of the game or the community." Wrong yet again. I want Pixonic to change the MM into something that is fair and not easily exploited. Penalizing leavers is just a bandaid for the current broken MM that won't solve the problem. You can look down on tankers from your high horse, but we will average more gold and more cups than you per hour spent gaming. I'm not going to fall behind everyone else because of an imaginary set of ethics y'all have for how to play an online game. I think you have the two of us confused. One of us is gaming the system by exploiting a loophole because of a complete disregard for the game and the community. The other is advocating for this loophole to be closed because it would be better for the game and the community. Your second paragraph pretty much establishes which is which. Now, which do you think adds more value to the player community? That will give you a clue as to which one Pixonic would more prefer to keep around.
|
|
|
Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 15:29:16 GMT -5
Wrong yet again. I want Pixonic to change the MM into something that is fair and not easily exploited. Penalizing leavers is just a bandaid for the current broken MM that won't solve the problem. You can look down on tankers from your high horse, but we will average more gold and more cups than you per hour spent gaming. I'm not going to fall behind everyone else because of an imaginary set of ethics y'all have for how to play an online game. I think you have the two of us confused. One of us is gaming the system by exploiting a loophole because of a complete disregard for the game and the community. The other is advocating for this loophole to be closed because it would be better for the game and the community. Your second paragraph pretty much establishes which is which. It's not a loophole. It's a feature. Penalties won't do anything except produce bad ratings and uninstalls.
|
|
|
Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 13, 2017 15:35:13 GMT -5
Uninstalls and bad ratings from who?
The newbs getting smashed by tankers? Doubtful.
The tankers who can't exploit the "feature"? I doubt Pix is going to care as you're not part of the paying player base (hence your gold farming). If anything they might just applaud because the "new" players you're no longer smashing may become an "actual" paying player since their game enjoyment would go up.
|
|
|
Post by blastronaut on Feb 13, 2017 15:40:58 GMT -5
Uninstalls and bad ratings from who? The newbs getting smashed by tankers? Doubtful. The tankers who can't exploit the "feature"? I doubt Pix is going to care as you're not part of the paying player base (hence your gold farming). If anything they might just applaud because the "new" players you're no longer smashing may become an "actual" paying player since their game enjoyment would go up. On the contrary, noobs will get penalized for not understanding this convoluted "reliability rating" or the various penalties that others have proposed. Noobs will quit. Imposing penalties won't fix the MM. ONLY fixing the MM will fix the MM. That has been my point all along. I have spent actual money on this game but why not get extra premium currency while farming cups for my clan ranking?
|
|
|
Post by Spoopy Scary Haunter on Feb 13, 2017 15:46:53 GMT -5
i live on a farm in the middle of nowhere. Should i be penalized for the fact that my internet isn't worth pissing on?
|
|
|
Post by Spoopy Scary Haunter on Feb 13, 2017 15:51:48 GMT -5
Uninstalls and bad ratings from who? The newbs getting smashed by tankers? Doubtful. The tankers who can't exploit the "feature"? I doubt Pix is going to care as you're not part of the paying player base (hence your gold farming). If anything they might just applaud because the "new" players you're no longer smashing may become an "actual" paying player since their game enjoyment would go up. On the contrary, noobs will get penalized for not understanding this convoluted "reliability rating" or the various penalties that others have proposed. Noobs will quit. Imposing penalties won't fix the MM. ONLY fixing the MM will fix the MM. That has been my point all along. I have spent actual money on this game but why not get extra premium currency while farming cups for my clan ranking? Hence there will be a tutorial explaining the game in the new update. what, you think pix will install this new league system and a large penalty without explaining it to the players? really? i know you hate pixonic and all that, but do you think they are as dumb as bricks? As well as that, your lil condescending attitiude there is a bit annoying. what? so everyone who doesnt agree with you is stupid and doesnt understand the topic? also, whats with "Im psychic and 「dookie」, and everytime pix releases something that inst flawless, they will lose millions of player, but it only applies to implementations that stop me gaming the system, otherwise, it will be a great success" seriously, stahp it, your entire argument is just you assumptions
|
|
|
Post by KaneoheGrown on Feb 13, 2017 15:58:55 GMT -5
i live on a farm in the middle of nowhere. Should i be penalized for the fact that my internet isn't worth pissing on? Be honest, when the game is lagging so bad that you're DC'd 3+ times in a row, are you really jumping on for more? When it gets that bad (where the return to hangar button pops up) I'm normally putting the phone down for a bit. It's not like I'm being effective when every bot I target "warps" or I constantly get frozen when the war robots banner pops up (and subsequently killed). If my connection is that bad, I'm not playing.
|
|
|
Post by Spoopy Scary Haunter on Feb 13, 2017 16:03:52 GMT -5
i live on a farm in the middle of nowhere. Should i be penalized for the fact that my internet isn't worth pissing on? Be honest, when the game is lagging so bad that you're DC'd 3+ times in a row, are you really jumping on for more? When it gets that bad (where the return to hangar button pops up) I'm normally putting the phone down for a bit. It's not like I'm being effective when every bot I target "warps" or I constantly get frozen when the war robots banner pops up (and subsequently killed). If my connection is that bad, I'm not playing. No, i just continuously try and get a good game. that could be 2 games till i get a good match, could be 10. if i stopped playing for a bit everytime my internet 「dookied」 itself, id still be using destriers.
|
|
|
Post by jazzykat on Feb 13, 2017 16:07:43 GMT -5
Uninstalls and bad ratings from who? The newbs getting smashed by tankers? Doubtful. The tankers who can't exploit the "feature"? I doubt Pix is going to care as you're not part of the paying player base (hence your gold farming). If anything they might just applaud because the "new" players you're no longer smashing may become an "actual" paying player since their game enjoyment would go up. Yeah, as it stands it is either farmers (which have turned into tankers), top tier guys who are waiting to get their ELO up high enough that they don't face weak competition, and players who play for months are the only ones who can amass gold without having to pay for it. Getting rid of farmers is probably fine in the eyes of pixo because they probably aren't using real money (otherwise why would they be farming) and they are protecting newbs who may or may not become paying players. Also, with tankers the MM will have a harder time to stabilize. What I hope they do with leagues is incentivize doing as good as you can in every game. This can easily be done by giving better rewards at the higher levels than at the lower levels and promoting/relegating players as their ELO score changes. Therefore, tanking would get you no rewards when you lose and crappy rewards when you win. A simple example: 3 tiers: Bronze, Silver, and Gold Bronze tier pays 3:first, 2:second, 1:third, 3:most beacons. No level 30 players Silver tier pays as is current Gold tier pays: 7:first, 5:second, 2:third, 1 for best performance with the lowest aggregate level of bots and weapons that did not make top 3 or get the most beacons, and 6 for most beacons. You can argue with the payouts and whatever but the idea is, getting into gold league has better payouts.
|
|
[AurN] perfectlyGoodInk
Aurora Clan Moderator
Posts: 729
Karma: 556
Platform: Android
Clan: leader of Aurora Nova [AurN]
League: Gold
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bishop from Aliens, although WALL-E is a close second
|
Post by [AurN] perfectlyGoodInk on Feb 13, 2017 16:10:37 GMT -5
I think you have the two of us confused. One of us is gaming the system by exploiting a loophole because of a complete disregard for the game and the community. The other is advocating for this loophole to be closed because it would be better for the game and the community. Your second paragraph pretty much establishes which is which. It's not a loophole. It's a feature. Penalties won't do anything except produce bad ratings and uninstalls. First you say MM is broken and needs to be fixed instead of just putting a band aid on it. Now you say it's a feature. And realize, Pix can simply make it a reward for completing matches "productively" instead of a penalty for failing to do so. Identical incentive structure, just framed differently.
|
|
|
Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Feb 13, 2017 16:50:06 GMT -5
On the contrary, noobs will get penalized for not understanding this convoluted "reliability rating" or the various penalties that others have proposed. Noobs will quit. Imposing penalties won't fix the MM. ONLY fixing the MM will fix the MM. That has been my point all along. I have spent actual money on this game but why not get extra premium currency while farming cups for my clan ranking? Umm... last time I checked USAEAGLES , your ranking was so far down the list that it looked like my Number 9 key got stuck, for an hour. I do thank you for one thing though, the more you hate any idea concerning dealing with tanking, the more merit it has.
|
|