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Post by carnage on Mar 6, 2017 9:50:08 GMT -5
I thought I would open a discussion about that case.
Right now, Griffin are everywhere. It is confirmed by some stats given by some users that Griffins alone represent at least 25% of the game, sometimes more, and it goes until top-level where a lot of top players still use Griffin under various configurations (well DB or Plasma).
Even more surprising is the fact that it is a silver bot, and you would expect a silver bot to be inferior to gold bots.
To me that raises a legit question, is Griffin OP ? I don’t have a particular opinion (I actually think Gareth/Galahad are the most OP robots in the game), but quite frankly, if a robot is by far the most used robot in the game, I think it is fair to question if it is OP. Especially for a silver bot.
EDIT : A concrete example to add to the discussion : Rogatka is a gold bot, Griffin a silver bot.
Shouldn't we expect the Rogatka to be superior to the Griffin then ? Well that's hardly the case, quite the opposite actually.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 9:53:14 GMT -5
No.
They're prevalent simply because they are silver bots and the best of them.
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Post by osang on Mar 6, 2017 9:54:20 GMT -5
Yes, they are everywhere because they are cheap.
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Post by ou812gr8m8 on Mar 6, 2017 9:54:56 GMT -5
^ agreed. (edit: crikey, this moved fast. I was agreeing with runamok. They're not OP, they're the best silver bot.) |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 9:59:47 GMT -5
A concrete example to add to the discussion : Rogatka is a gold bot, Griffin a silver bot. Shouldn't we expect the Rogatka to be superior to the Griffin ? That's hardly the case, it's arguably the opposite actually. No. Griff is a heavy, while the Rog is a medium. (although, Rog does need some love) Using that logic, gold is better than silver, wsp weapons shouldn't be better than gold ones. |
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Post by carnage on Mar 6, 2017 10:00:20 GMT -5
I've edited the original message with a concrete example, Griffin vs Rogatka. Griffin is silver, Rogatka is gold.
One would expect to have a superior robot in the Rogatka. It is not the case... at all.
Maybe it is the Griffin which should have been a gold bot, actually.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 10:01:06 GMT -5
The Griffin, Lancelot and Fury are OP.
Galahad, Carnage and Rhino are debatable.
The rest are underpowered.
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Post by wildboar on Mar 6, 2017 10:02:18 GMT -5
no OP : Everywhere because ...cheap ... move OK for a fat 「bum-bum」 ... and take lots of attainable weapons ... add premium weapons as you afford them I have 5 so could field a full hangar of Griffs  Currently running 2 ... AphOrk & Plasma |
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Post by gr3ygh05t on Mar 6, 2017 10:07:18 GMT -5
The Griffin is not OP. It is common because a) it's a cheap silver bot and b) It's the most mobile platform for the best weapons in the game which is the Taran and Orkan)
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Post by carnage on Mar 6, 2017 10:08:50 GMT -5
The Griffin, Lancelot and Fury are OP. Galahad, Carnage and Rhino are debatable. The rest are underpowered. Well I disagree here, case in point, you find just as many Galahad than Lancelot at top-level... while it is a medium robot which costs twice less than a Lancelot. That should be enough to show you that Galahad is OP, unlike the Lancelot.
And I would not even talk about the Gareth which is a super-fast light basically stronger than most heavies even in point rang confrontations. Completely out of the world OP.
But that's another topic... I wouldn't want to derail the thread. 
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Post by mechtout on Mar 6, 2017 10:12:32 GMT -5
no shields on all those griffins, op should be enjoying the easy silver
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 10:13:49 GMT -5
To ease your conscience, think of it this way; griffs are the cannon fodder, the others the generals. You don't put all the generals on the front line. That's what cannon fodder is for.
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Post by carnage on Mar 6, 2017 10:26:04 GMT -5
A concrete example to add to the discussion : Rogatka is a gold bot, Griffin a silver bot. Shouldn't we expect the Rogatka to be superior to the Griffin ? That's hardly the case, it's arguably the opposite actually. No. Griff is a heavy, while the Rog is a medium. (although, Rog does need some love) Using that logic, gold is better than silver, wsp weapons shouldn't be better than gold ones. Fine, the Rog is a gold medium.
Then why it is so outclassed by the Galahad which happens to be also a gold medium ?
I would be fine to consider heavies should be superior to mediums, and mediums to lights, but if you go that way, then both Gareth/Galahad should take a serious nerf in that case because as it stands, they very clearly exceed their respective classes.
Also price of robots should reflect that the heavier the robot, the more expensive it should be. So the Griffin should be more expensive than the Rogatka, as an example. It's really not the case at all, right now. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 10:38:43 GMT -5
simply because games progress, players need the latest and greatest. Gepards gave way to gary. rog for galahad. Everything but fury for lance.
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Post by notyetnotsosoon on Mar 6, 2017 10:40:17 GMT -5
Oh god please no, not another nerfing thread.
The game is one of the better balanced game as it is (w/o the new dashbot): every weapon/bot has an appropriate counter and every match can be won with tactics. Just being popular doesn't make it OP.
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Post by sonofsam on Mar 6, 2017 10:53:53 GMT -5
The Griffin isn't OP. It is a cheap bot that is versitile. It is typically one of the first heavy bots that people get. It can be fitted with:
Malot/Malot mk2- makes it good at hunting anything carrying Tridents or a decent range bot early in the game.
Pins/Tolumbus- Good mid range bot
Pinta/Ork- ambush predator
However it is slow, its jump takes forever to cool down, and it's kinda squishy compared to other heavy bots. The Malot setup doesn't fire all that long before reloading nor does it pack a huge life melting ability. The Tolumbus/Pin setup is 100m shorter than most midrange setups, and the Pinta/Orkin setup has a long reload if you miss or the guy you ambushed is a higher level.
Sure the Griffin is a versatile and powerful bot but it also has the downsides mentioned above making it balanced. The fact that most people at top tier only run one on TT because there are other bots that can do pretty much everything a Griffin can do except do it better kinda shows it isn't OP.
Personally I think they are balanced well. It depends on what I'm running and what the Griffin is running whether I look at him as easy silver or run away. Even then I never fear not just dismiss them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 11:00:29 GMT -5
Cheap, effective, good loadout
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Mar 6, 2017 11:07:23 GMT -5
They are the cheapest way into the show. The fact that they are prevalent simply reflects this. Overpowered for a sliver bot, maybe...but who cares. I run a Rog with Orkans and I am pleasantly surprised how it catches capping shield bots in full arrogance.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 11:07:40 GMT -5
The Griffin, Lancelot and Fury are OP. Galahad, Carnage and Rhino are debatable. The rest are underpowered. Well I disagree here, case in point, you find just as many Galahad than Lancelot at top-level... while it is a medium robot which costs twice less than a Lancelot. That should be enough to show you that Galahad is OP, unlike the Lancelot.
And I would not even talk about the Gareth which is a super-fast light basically stronger than most heavies even in point rang confrontations. Completely out of the world OP.
But that's another topic... I wouldn't want to derail the thread.
No, the Lancelots at top tier all have Anciles. Blocks every sort of damage and the only way to kill it is to pound its shield or to gang bang it. Yes I'd agree that the Galahad would be OP until you get to the point when a Trident Fury can take out 1/2 of a Galahad's health in a salvo. It can't do that to the Lancelot, and it won't even scratch it if it has an Ancile. What League are you in anyways? The Gareth is by far not OP in Diamon 3+, but it may be in Silver. |
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Post by Feezou on Mar 6, 2017 11:12:32 GMT -5
It's just that their hard points are good for combinations(plasma, or db), and they are cheap and easy to use.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Mar 6, 2017 11:28:01 GMT -5
NERF EVERYTHING! Make it walking nerf shooter. No one will get feelings hurt, MM won't matter. MoD and MoC will be replaced with MoP, Medal of Participation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 11:30:24 GMT -5
Dropping two Rhinos as soon as the 2 spotters Griff's in my whse get to 11. Then I can upgrade all 3 to 12 in roughly the same time it would take for 2 Rhinos. Rhino's role has changed since introduction, Griffins have too lately. Still costs a lot of silver to get them there though. Last upgrade is 25 mil, 3 days 17 hours. My Rhino is going to cost 24 mil, 5 days 10 hrs. Going with the more versatile bot right now. And can use the level 12 weapons off the Rhino for my Griff, or another combo, if I like. But that still gives me options in my hangar as things change in the future.
I see all combinations when I play against Expert I, Masters and Champions. But not to many Rhinos.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 11:34:23 GMT -5
SGT D00M! No, No, buff everything, tune them suckers up. Crank out the power. Let the rockets fly. Let the missile fly true. Buff it all, buff it good More medals for all, Hang on the bots use em' as extra shielding. ?
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Post by SATmaster728 on Mar 6, 2017 11:43:24 GMT -5
I've edited the original message with a concrete example, Griffin vs Rogatka. Griffin is silver, Rogatka is gold. One would expect to have a superior robot in the Rogatka. It is not the case... at all. Maybe it is the Griffin which should have been a gold bot, actually. I would say you should never compare different bot classes, the main reason i think the griffin is used is it can be a great plasma bot, a great Db bot, and a great rbd bot. it is very versatile. |
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Post by blastronaut on Mar 6, 2017 12:30:40 GMT -5
Griff is used because it has 4 hardpoints to deal a lot of damage, and can jump away from rockets and out of plasma range after expending its weapons.
The new Proto-bot is everything the Rog should be. It has an extra medium hardpoint and a shield along with its ability.
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Post by carnage on Mar 6, 2017 13:34:48 GMT -5
Well I disagree here, case in point, you find just as many Galahad than Lancelot at top-level... while it is a medium robot which costs twice less than a Lancelot. That should be enough to show you that Galahad is OP, unlike the Lancelot.
And I would not even talk about the Gareth which is a super-fast light basically stronger than most heavies even in point rang confrontations. Completely out of the world OP.
But that's another topic... I wouldn't want to derail the thread.
No, the Lancelots at top tier all have Anciles. Blocks every sort of damage and the only way to kill it is to pound its shield or to gang bang it. Yes I'd agree that the Galahad would be OP until you get to the point when a Trident Fury can take out 1/2 of a Galahad's health in a salvo. It can't do that to the Lancelot, and it won't even scratch it if it has an Ancile. What League are you in anyways? The Gareth is by far not OP in Diamon 3+, but it may be in Silver. I am exactly at the top of Gold 3, a few points away from Diamond that I hope to join next month. So I face a mix of high-gold and low-diamond.
At my level, no bot come close to the impact of the Gareth or the Galahad. I'd argue the Gareth has a stronger impact on the game than a Lancelot quite frankly because of the capping ability and amazing speed. Most of the time the Lancelot comes slowly, attract fire, and die. The Gareth is much harder to deal with, he can escapes all missiles with ease, and is basically immune to plasma because of the shield.
Thing is, the Gareth have deceptive speed so a good pilot will always choose the way he engages you, and then, ALSO have extraordinary resistance (in relative ways, the shield is even superior to Galahad, 200% of base health, which means at level 9 a Gareth has over 200'000 HP). That can help him blow away all mediums (except Galahad) and most of the heavies. I know it well, I am a typical knife fighter and use both Leo/Thunder/Pinata and Natasha/Thunder/Pinata setups. Believe it or not, but when I see a Gareth or a Galahad coming at me, I know it is over for me. They don't beat me because they are smarter or anything, they beat me because they come at my face, resist my attacks (evade Pinatas with ease, or at worst they resist to them with the shield), and blow me away with the combo Taran/Magnum.
And it's no different with a Rhino. The Rhino has major downsides compared to the britbots. Firstly, using the shield basically blocks your robot. Secondly, it diminishes drastically your firepower. The britbots have none of those problems, so a good britbot pilot will simply circle around the Rhino smashing him. Sure once in a while a Rhino will beat a britbot, but at equal skills and even situation, there is not a chance a Rhino can survive that kind of encounter. Same for the Carnage for different reasons. A Gareth Taran/Magnum will smash a Carnage in a few seconds only.
This is where I find it a bit ridiculous. Let's not forget Gareth is supposed to be a LIGHT bot. It doesn't make sense how strong he is currently. It is more understandable for the Galahad, and even there, it comes down to the medium vs heavy conversation, Galahad is still a medium which is very clearly superior to most heavies. When people say don't compare the Rog to the Griffin because the Rog is a medium, shouldn't we apply this same logic to the Galahad ? That's why I clearly see both Gareth/Galahad as OP, but mainly the Gareth.
Whatever, the Gareth/Galahad is a totally different topic.
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Post by SATmaster728 on Mar 6, 2017 14:08:39 GMT -5
No, the Lancelots at top tier all have Anciles. Blocks every sort of damage and the only way to kill it is to pound its shield or to gang bang it. Yes I'd agree that the Galahad would be OP until you get to the point when a Trident Fury can take out 1/2 of a Galahad's health in a salvo. It can't do that to the Lancelot, and it won't even scratch it if it has an Ancile. What League are you in anyways? The Gareth is by far not OP in Diamon 3+, but it may be in Silver. I am exactly at the top of Gold 3, a few points away from Diamond that I hope to join next month. So I face a mix of high-gold and low-diamond.
At my level, no bot come close to the impact of the Gareth or the Galahad. I'd argue the Gareth has a stronger impact on the game than a Lancelot quite frankly because of the capping ability and amazing speed. Most of the time the Lancelot comes slowly, attract fire, and die. The Gareth is much harder to deal with, he can escapes all missiles with ease, and is basically immune to plasma because of the shield.
Thing is, the Gareth have deceptive speed so a good pilot will always choose the way he engages you, and then, ALSO have extraordinary resistance (in relative ways, the shield is even superior to Galahad, 200% of base health, which means at level 9 a Gareth has over 200'000 HP). That can help him blow away all mediums (except Galahad) and most of the heavies. I know it well, I am a typical knife fighter and use both Leo/Thunder/Pinata and Natasha/Thunder/Pinata setups. Believe it or not, but when I see a Gareth or a Galahad coming at me, I know it is over for me. They don't beat me because they are smarter or anything, they beat me because they come at my face, resist my attacks (evade Pinatas with ease, or at worst they resist to them with the shield), and blow me away with the combo Taran/Magnum.
And it's no different with a Rhino. The Rhino has major downsides compared to the britbots. Firstly, using the shield basically blocks your robot. Secondly, it diminishes drastically your firepower. The britbots have none of those problems, so a good britbot pilot will simply circle around the Rhino smashing him. Sure once in a while a Rhino will beat a britbot, but at equal skills and even situation, there is not a chance a Rhino can survive that kind of encounter. Same for the Carnage for different reasons. A Gareth Taran/Magnum will smash a Carnage in a few seconds only.
This is where I find it a bit ridiculous. Let's not forget Gareth is supposed to be a LIGHT bot. It doesn't make sense how strong he is currently. It is more understandable for the Galahad, and even there, it comes down to the medium vs heavy conversation, Galahad is still a medium which is very clearly superior to most heavies. When people say don't compare the Rog to the Griffin because the Rog is a medium, shouldn't we apply this same logic to the Galahad ? That's why I clearly see both Gareth/Galahad as OP, but mainly the Gareth.
Whatever, the Gareth/Galahad is a totally different topic.
So you are saying a plasma galahad can beat a splash rhino without dying? My corpses think not... |
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Post by mijapi300 on Mar 6, 2017 14:34:17 GMT -5
Ever heard the phrase "every scotch is whisky, but not every whiskey is scotch"?
Every overpowered item is overused, bot not every overused item is overpowered.
A few people have pointed out why the Griffin is used so much. It's the best silver bot. It's cheap. The weapons that are effective on it for the most part are cheap or easily attainable. I'll add that the Griffin is super easy to pilot. Cheap, easy, and effective will lead to overuse of a bot. That does not make it overpowered.
In my mind, an overpowered bot has very few, if any, ways to counter it. That simply isn't the case with the Griffin. They're quite simple to counter, the biggest problem is not knowing what bots on the field are DB Griffins until they jump on you. With practice, you'll be able to locate and stay out of their killzone. Best way to identify them is that almost all Griffin users jump soon out of the first spawn. Watch the jumping bots. A Griffin jump is much slower and wider of an arc than a Cossack or the rare Rogatka. It's safe to assume all Griffs are DBs until proven otherwise.
As far as the claims of Gary being overpowered, I do not believe that to be the case. It is the best bot in the game, yes. But this is a very well balanced game, with very few things even being close to considered OP. I don't agree with people that claim heavy bots "should" be better than medium and light bots. Heavy bots should have more health and firepower, yes, but they shouldn't be invincible to light and medium bots. People making that claim are ridiculously clinging to a hope for a game that requires no thought or skill. A light or medium bot should have speed and/or ability advantages that balance the game as a whole. You shouldn't be able to face head-on with heavies and win easily, but that's the point of different classes. They require different strategies to succeed.
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Post by cakeordeath on Mar 6, 2017 15:17:01 GMT -5
No. Griff is a heavy, while the Rog is a medium. (although, Rog does need some love) Using that logic, gold is better than silver, wsp weapons shouldn't be better than gold ones. Fine, the Rog is a gold medium.
Then why it is so outclassed by the Galahad which happens to be also a gold medium ?
I would be fine to consider heavies should be superior to mediums, and mediums to lights, but if you go that way, then both Gareth/Galahad should take a serious nerf in that case because as it stands, they very clearly exceed their respective classes.
Also price of robots should reflect that the heavier the robot, the more expensive it should be. So the Griffin should be more expensive than the Rogatka, as an example. It's really not the case at all, right now. The rog is currently underpowered and in need of a buff (probably a bit more speed and shorter jump cooldown, maybe some health) to justify using it. It got a buff recently but it wasn't enough to offset the Rogatka losing its niche in the old matchmaker (similar to the gepard but one tier higher). It and the gepard used to benefit from the old matchmaking system because they didn't get bumped up a tier like the other gold bots. Now they need a little upgrade to make them viable choices again. Just because the Rogatka is broken right now, that doesn't make the Griffin OP. The Griffin is a very good bot, yes, but as others have pointed out, it is a glass cannon. It is popular because it is cheap, versatile, has a tolerable speed and a can carry a generous amount of some of the most popular weapons in the game. It's also fragile, particularly as a knife fighter. Jumping is nice but their cooldown is quite long. It's a superb ambusher but it can't soak incoming fire for beans. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 17:52:53 GMT -5
No, the Lancelots at top tier all have Anciles. Blocks every sort of damage and the only way to kill it is to pound its shield or to gang bang it. Yes I'd agree that the Galahad would be OP until you get to the point when a Trident Fury can take out 1/2 of a Galahad's health in a salvo. It can't do that to the Lancelot, and it won't even scratch it if it has an Ancile. What League are you in anyways? The Gareth is by far not OP in Diamon 3+, but it may be in Silver. I am exactly at the top of Gold 3, a few points away from Diamond that I hope to join next month. So I face a mix of high-gold and low-diamond.
At my level, no bot come close to the impact of the Gareth or the Galahad. I'd argue the Gareth has a stronger impact on the game than a Lancelot quite frankly because of the capping ability and amazing speed. Most of the time the Lancelot comes slowly, attract fire, and die. The Gareth is much harder to deal with, he can escapes all missiles with ease, and is basically immune to plasma because of the shield.
Thing is, the Gareth have deceptive speed so a good pilot will always choose the way he engages you, and then, ALSO have extraordinary resistance (in relative ways, the shield is even superior to Galahad, 200% of base health, which means at level 9 a Gareth has over 200'000 HP). That can help him blow away all mediums (except Galahad) and most of the heavies. I know it well, I am a typical knife fighter and use both Leo/Thunder/Pinata and Natasha/Thunder/Pinata setups. Believe it or not, but when I see a Gareth or a Galahad coming at me, I know it is over for me. They don't beat me because they are smarter or anything, they beat me because they come at my face, resist my attacks (evade Pinatas with ease, or at worst they resist to them with the shield), and blow me away with the combo Taran/Magnum.
And it's no different with a Rhino. The Rhino has major downsides compared to the britbots. Firstly, using the shield basically blocks your robot. Secondly, it diminishes drastically your firepower. The britbots have none of those problems, so a good britbot pilot will simply circle around the Rhino smashing him. Sure once in a while a Rhino will beat a britbot, but at equal skills and even situation, there is not a chance a Rhino can survive that kind of encounter. Same for the Carnage for different reasons. A Gareth Taran/Magnum will smash a Carnage in a few seconds only.
This is where I find it a bit ridiculous. Let's not forget Gareth is supposed to be a LIGHT bot. It doesn't make sense how strong he is currently. It is more understandable for the Galahad, and even there, it comes down to the medium vs heavy conversation, Galahad is still a medium which is very clearly superior to most heavies. When people say don't compare the Rog to the Griffin because the Rog is a medium, shouldn't we apply this same logic to the Galahad ? That's why I clearly see both Gareth/Galahad as OP, but mainly the Gareth.
Whatever, the Gareth/Galahad is a totally different topic.
Good luck in Diamond soon. You'll hope every single time that the Fury on the other side isn't looking at you. And also, if you are using Thunder Pinata Leo / Natasha, have something to replace it. There are literally no Leos or Natashas there. It may seem like the Gareth and Galahad are the king bots in gold now. If you want to see a video of Gareth's best performance in top tier, watch Adrian's. -> Although I wouldn't call Adrian an extremely good Gareth or Galahad pilot, this is pretty much the gist of the Gareth. |
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