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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 18:22:53 GMT -5
After playing more than a few games in the new scoring systems, my impression is that is seems to be a move forward to correct earlier problems, but it is not enough. There is still the issue of not rewarding capping. The comment about the goal of the game is to cap and hold beacons, which takes higher damage, is absolutely ridiculous. In many games, it is about how many caps can be made in the time allowed. Frequently, repeated capping is part of the process. Those of us who have capping hangers specialize in this style of play and we resent the dismissive tone of your comment Amid. The scoring system should fairly recognize the talent it takes to build and play a capping hanger successfully. I will repeat, capping wins games, not damage or kills. I can testify that I have been in games where my team has been far outgunned and outscored in damage, but we came away with the win by being stealthier, sneakier, faster, more mobile and just plain better. This takes skill and coordination against much more powerful bots. There should be an award system recognizing this. Secondly, you cannot use the scoring and league system as a battlefield equalizer for mismatched hangers. This is because players are gaming your matchmaking algorithm. The only true safeguard is to restrict high leveled bots and weaponed bots to players with similar characteristics. I continue to see level 12 items in my games while fielding a solid level 8/8 hanger. I have no problem with players upgrading, but don't go trolling downstream just so you can more easily garner more rewards or kills at the expense of others. I am a Silver I player and I do not care to see gold and higher level players with level 12 weapons in my matches, especially when I know that they have manipulated their ratings to be so matched. I believe the system has shifted to your playstyle dramatically. Your post states that beacon capping is the key to winning. The new point system gives points only to winners. You cannot reward capping any more directly than this, since (1) the capping itself is arbitrary - a faster bot grabbing a beacon 3 seconds before a heavy arrives to do the same thing does not dramatically alter the outcome, and (2) The beacon bar diminishes by the amount of time the beacons are held, not merely capped and abandoned. Give it some time and I suspect everyone on the forum will be climbing leagues in no time. Not that its a good thing, moving up too fast, but that's another subject for another thread. Cheers. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 18:27:54 GMT -5
Why should everyone on the losing side lose some points? All this incentivises is: 1) top clan players to stick to squad play only - solo is a lottery, but at least with the last system a strong player could fight their way to a positive result 2) more leavers - now if your team is hopelessly outmatched the cost for quitting after 3 mins when result is clear is just a few points, last system gave losing side an incentive to fight t o the death, even if outnumbered and outgunned 3) lower user engagement among the target paying players - maxed out hangers in top clans have no need for gold, newbies in lower leagues don't really care win or lose, but will see no progress so lose interest, mid level, engaged players that were spending to advance will have less wins, be left out of squads by maxed hanger top players who don't want to risk a loss, so overall engagement drops and revenue is softened what it does not incentivise is me dusting off light bots to chase beacons, because if my team blows, at least I am going to try and get some silver from hammering anyone and everyone I can so zero problems solved and a bunch of new ones created Step back a bit and look at the bigger picture - if you have a >50% win rate, you will end up climbing and winning more league points than you lose in the long run. If your win rate is below 50%, then you do lose points, which upsets people. But the thing is, you then drop down, which will eventually pit you against weaker opponents, which will then help your win rate improve. To me this sounds like exactly what the game should be doing. |
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Post by nocluevok on Mar 17, 2017 18:28:49 GMT -5
+1000 Internets! I think the prevalence of this attitude is caused by a general lack of understanding of statistics and probability. This isn't a dig on anyone, human brains have to be trained to grok this stuff. Most people aren't exposed to even the most basic treatment of probability unless they pursue a math/science/engineering degree in college. It doesn't "all come out in the wash"... there is definitely some non-random stuff going on when matchmaking happens and leads to the perception that the MM'er goes on runs where it is "against" a player. Had a match like that today. Me 800k + and that just doesn't happen when I average 350k...everyone else in blue, less than 200k. Red team kicked our collective tails. It almost looked like myself and the red team high scorer got tossed in with a bunch of noobs well below our level. Not fair for anyone involved. |
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Post by amidf on Mar 17, 2017 18:44:38 GMT -5
It doesn't "all come out in the wash"... there is definitely some non-random stuff going on when matchmaking happens and leads to the perception that the MM'er goes on runs where it is "against" a player. Had a match like that today. Me 800k + and that just doesn't happen when I average 350k...everyone else in blue, less than 200k. Red team kicked our collective tails. It almost looked like myself and the red team high scorer got tossed in with a bunch of noobs well below our level. Not fair for anyone involved. People get matched outside their league (both up and down) due to available pool of players. It may be even more imbalanced if you are pulled in as a replacement. I wouldn't assume it is non-random or forcing someone down to punish a high win rate just because it seems to come in streaks. Think about how overactive people's pattern recognition is when they play slot machines. Winning streaks, losing streaks, "hot" machines are all interpreted as meaningful by the gambler and are often accompanied by superstitions. You need to collect a lot of data and do statistical tests to determine if a perceived pattern is real. -Amid |
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Post by moses on Mar 17, 2017 18:46:39 GMT -5
Why should everyone on the losing side lose some points? All this incentivises is: 1) top clan players to stick to squad play only - solo is a lottery, but at least with the last system a strong player could fight their way to a positive result 2) more leavers - now if your team is hopelessly outmatched the cost for quitting after 3 mins when result is clear is just a few points, last system gave losing side an incentive to fight t o the death, even if outnumbered and outgunned 3) lower user engagement among the target paying players - maxed out hangers in top clans have no need for gold, newbies in lower leagues don't really care win or lose, but will see no progress so lose interest, mid level, engaged players that were spending to advance will have less wins, be left out of squads by maxed hanger top players who don't want to risk a loss, so overall engagement drops and revenue is softened what it does not incentivise is me dusting off light bots to chase beacons, because if my team blows, at least I am going to try and get some silver from hammering anyone and everyone I can so zero problems solved and a bunch of new ones created Step back a bit and look at the bigger picture - if you have a >50% win rate, you will end up climbing and winning more league points than you lose in the long run. If your win rate is below 50%, then you do lose points, which upsets people. But the thing is, you then drop down, which will eventually pit you against weaker opponents, which will then help your win rate improve. To me this sounds like exactly what the game should be doing. Exactly the point. I don't know how well you must be playing, but I know that as well as I do alone, my win rate is down in large part to the luck of the draw of the other 5 players. Before the league came in squad play with clan mates was collaborative and about bringing up newer, enthusiastic players that didn't have the hanger, but wanted to get on. When the original league system came in just recently it was immediate the effect on squad play within our clan - anyone outside champions league was out of regular play unless proven, and the commeradery of squad play took a hit, but league advancement goal was achievable (remembering original leagues assigned based on random five games) and playing solo gave a solid player a chance to gradually move up. now solo is a waste of time, but the incentive to close squad play to newer players is only intensified. tell me where you see an improvement? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 18:57:06 GMT -5
moses , in your specific example of clan play, agree 100% that the new MM makes that difficult with both new and old league point models. I play with relatively high level clan, and they always invite me to squad, but it blows b/c I am 2-3 levels below them, so I often feel like an anchor. That said, Pix seemed intent on not letting high level pilots run low level hangars. I don't think they were trying to stop Clans from running balanced squads, but rather felt they had to respond to other issues. Thus the new MM is here. My point is that if a pilot is losing a lot, then dropping leagues shouldn't be considered a bad thing. Let the league place pilots in matches where they belong - that's the improvement. EDIT: Also, welcome to the forums!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 19:09:10 GMT -5
Step back a bit and look at the bigger picture - if you have a >50% win rate, you will end up climbing and winning more league points than you lose in the long run. If your win rate is below 50%, then you do lose points, which upsets people. But the thing is, you then drop down, which will eventually pit you against weaker opponents, which will then help your win rate improve. To me this sounds like exactly what the game should be doing. I don't believe it will work out as nicely as that, due to the limited influence an individual player has on the match outcome and the removal of the incentive for your teammates to stick around when things don't look good. Recognizing individual performance on the losing side was important. Now, how far do you have to fall before your individual skill/hangar can make a significant difference in the overall outcome a game - not just doing well individually, but actually making your team much more likely to win? The matchmaker certainly doesn't show mercy because you aren't doing well, because the way it works now it doesn't give a 「dookie」 about your average damage, what's in your hangar or your win percentage. It's operating entirely on your rating along with whatever semi-random, semi-crooked methodology Pix has got rigged up under the hood. Note that my prior digging showed that the MM was quite happy to make good matches in terms of ratings (often within a a few dozen points) in the low level leagues, but when you got into silver it would allow matchups with opponents who had ratings 500+ points higher. Note there is no extra bonus for doing well against tough opposition, nor any loss mitigation when you are outmatched, which is a fundamental flaw in what is supposedly a performance-based matchmaker. Ultimately, I think the answer is to form small squads with clan mates who have very similar ratings profiles. The matchmaking for full clans is a total crapshoot and mixing player power levels within squads leads to other problems. For those who primarily play an individual game, I suspect things won't be particularly rewarding in the short term. |
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Post by moses on Mar 17, 2017 19:29:24 GMT -5
Thanks! I am also playing in a pretty solid clan, with maxed hangar, highly active players, and while I can keep up and maintain respectable mid-table position, I noticed a clear change in attitudes towards the weaker players. Pre-league system they would be included for some rounds, but now it costs points to lose people think twice before inviting.
I guess I am not aware of issues with players running mismatched hangars as even 10/11 or less than 5 slots is rare in the games I end up in, my issue is I am in matchmaking with top clans, can easily run into full squad on voice connect as opposition. If I am then put with Pilot 12345 and an 8 year old on dad's tablet, I at least want a chance of coming out with something more than -12
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 19:43:00 GMT -5
Makes sense moses . I just played Team Flex over here on Android. Great, fun game. I think full squads should ideally only face other squads. Playing solo is a risk to be sure, but at your level, I suspect Pilot 12345 should know how to handle himself. @kingkull , i know I cannot lift your spirits about all of this brother. Maybe the Rog upgrade will come soon. I have only played a handful of matches today, both clan and solo, and all of my games were 6 vs 6, good games, no leavers. Anecdotal, I know, but there you go. Cheers. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 20:02:58 GMT -5
@kingkull , i know I cannot lift your spirits about all of this brother. Maybe the Rog upgrade will come soon. I have only played a handful of matches today, both clan and solo, and all of my games were 6 vs 6, good games, no leavers. Anecdotal, I know, but there you go. Your kind words are much appreciated, HP. After probably a dozen failures in a row, due to drops, afk, idiocy and blue players still behaving like the old points method was in effect, I said 「fluffernutter」 it and just tanked hard. I need another game or two to see if this bronze limit thing is actually real. I can tell you that whatever leaver protection Pix has been crowing about doesn't actually exist. Edit: the Bronze limit thing is turning out to be very difficult to test as I can't get below 935 points due to the scoring and getting unwanted wins. I will point out that in the higher leagues, there were no unexpected wins like this... being down one essentially equals a loss. |
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Post by stkh22 on Mar 17, 2017 23:11:37 GMT -5
This new update is just lame. I don't know how any of these so called updates improve anything. All they do is promote clan/squad play, which IMO is great if your into that. If your a solo player that just wants to get in a game or two due to busy schedule, you will get penalized since the no matter how good you are, the other 5 players can now ultimately screw you over. If squad/clan play is encouraged, separate the pub from players teamed up with 4 or more so they can have their clan matches and what not. Pub is supposed to be quick and easy and FUN. Why are you FORCING solo casual players to have to look and wait for other clan/squad members when all you want to do is play for 10 minutes or so?
You want to encourage beacon runners, easy fix. REWARD them with more points!!! THAT SIMPLE. If you grab 5 beacons you get 2x or 3x more points than support players (campers that just like to use their trebs/tridents/hydras etc.). I will say it is already annoying having to deal with 6 vs 6 fury battles, but hey some people like to camp and snipe, so be it, reward players that cause damage, get beacons regardless win or lose.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 23:26:06 GMT -5
Despite what Pix is claiming, it is still possible to drop below Bronze. At this point, I'm thinking they're just making 「dookie」 up to tell players while they grope around in the dark for solutions to problems they created through their own lack of foresight.
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Post by amidf on Mar 17, 2017 23:55:57 GMT -5
This new update is just lame. I don't know how any of these so called updates improve anything. All they do is promote clan/squad play, which IMO is great if your into that. If your a solo player that just wants to get in a game or two due to busy schedule, you will get penalized since the no matter how good you are, the other 5 players can now ultimately screw you over. If squad/clan play is encouraged, separate the pub from players teamed up with 4 or more so they can have their clan matches and what not. Pub is supposed to be quick and easy and FUN. Why are you FORCING solo casual players to have to look and wait for other clan/squad members when all you want to do is play for 10 minutes or so? You want to encourage beacon runners, easy fix. REWARD them with more points!!! THAT SIMPLE. If you grab 5 beacons you get 2x or 3x more points than support players (campers that just like to use their trebs/tridents/hydras etc.). I will say it is already annoying having to deal with 6 vs 6 fury battles, but hey some people like to camp and snipe, so be it, reward players that cause damage, get beacons regardless win or lose. Explain it to me. What happens when the 5 other players screw you over? Do you lose league points? Then what happens? You can't enjoy a quick 10 minute match because...? How come those 5 guys are never on the red team? -Amid |
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Post by amidf on Mar 17, 2017 23:59:07 GMT -5
"Everyone is evil, so I can be evil too" is a pretty questionable ethical policy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not endorsing anything in this respect. But it should be absolutely no surprise we see this kind of behavior considering the environment. Despite what Pix is claiming, it is still possible to drop below Bronze. At this point, I'm thinking they're just making ?poo-poo? up to tell players while they grope around in the dark for solutions to problems they created through their own lack of foresight. "I don't endorse being evil. I just practice it." -Amid |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 0:11:05 GMT -5
Correct
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Post by moses on Mar 18, 2017 1:17:19 GMT -5
Makes sense moses . I just played Team Flex over here on Android. Great, fun game. I think full squads should ideally only face other squads. Playing solo is a risk to be sure, but at your level, I suspect Pilot 12345 should know how to handle himself. @kingkull , i know I cannot lift your spirits about all of this brother. Maybe the Rog upgrade will come soon. I have only played a handful of matches today, both clan and solo, and all of my games were 6 vs 6, good games, no leavers. Anecdotal, I know, but there you go. Cheers. First two games today tell it all: 1) Springfield. 6 blue vs 4 red opposite ends of valley, we are at closed end. I start on trident Fury, but pinned down by trebuchet and reds not advancing. Switch to Lancelot and move forward. The game is over so fast with total wipeout I barely have time to get in range to make a single shot before reds are gone completely. I do ridiculously embarrassing 12k damage, finish last and get +12 6) Springfield. 4 blue vs 6 red opposite ends of the city. I knew I should have ditched immediately, but stayed on for sport. Wipeout is just as quick, but I do 600k damage, more than the other three guys on my team combined and more than everyone on red, I effectively was the only person making it a game. My reward for this heroic effort: -12 what a waste of time. Off to test server to play with heavy machine guns until this is over. |
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Mar 18, 2017 3:48:43 GMT -5
1) top clan players to stick to squad play only - solo is a lottery, but at least with the last system a strong player could fight their way to a positive result 1) Squad play has been the way to go for a while, not only for top players, for the simple reason it minimizes the ditchers' problem.
To the ones lamenting intra-clan tier aparthaid: maybe I got lucky with my current clan (the only one I've been in since the league system came on), but I haven't seen singling out the weaker members (I regularly invite and see invtes from a pretty wide band form my point level), hopefully because we are chums, but maybe also because it's better a weaker member than no member at all in your team.
Also, you don't necessarily have to be so active to join a clan and enjoy squadding. Yes, top 100, maybe top 200 clans will really strictly enforce the activity rule, but every clan I've joined so far, up to top 400sh, have its share of less active members who are usually well treated as long as they do squad when they are on and are alive on clan chat (or line, or whatever the clan uses to communicate) rather than being lurkers. |
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Post by nocluevok on Mar 18, 2017 5:24:11 GMT -5
1) top clan players to stick to squad play only - solo is a lottery, but at least with the last system a strong player could fight their way to a positive result 1) Squad play has been the way to go for a while, not only for top players, for the simple reason it minimizes the ditchers' problem.
To the ones lamenting intra-clan tier aparthaid: maybe I got lucky with my current clan (the only one I've been in since the league system came on), but I haven't seen singling out the weaker members (I regularly invite and see invtes from a pretty wide band form my point level), hopefully because we are chums, but maybe also because it's better a weaker member than no member at all in your team.
Also, you don't necessarily have to be so active to join a clan and enjoy squadding. Yes, top 100, maybe top 200 clans will really strictly enforce the activity rule, but every clan I've joined so far, up to top 400sh, have its share of less active members who are usually well treated as long as they do squad when they are on and are alive on clan chat (or line, or whatever the clan uses to communicate) rather than being lurkers.I'm in a top 100 clan, but don't squad too often. The members I see the most are way above my level at the moment and I'd rather not handicap them. My contribution to the clan is in the number of cups I produce. Before my hand surgery, my 10 day average was 1500 - 1800. They keep me around because I play a lot... and I'm charming...and funny...and cute...and rich...and... ? |
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Mar 18, 2017 6:27:56 GMT -5
1500-1800 cup.... hand surgery.... mmmMMMMM
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Post by amidf on Mar 18, 2017 8:31:00 GMT -5
1500-1800 cup.... hand surgery.... mmmMMMMM Lol. I know what you're implying, but maybe he fell off his skateboard. |
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Post by SGT D00M! on Mar 18, 2017 18:08:33 GMT -5
I won't lie, I feel this change has in fact, positively benefited the game. It still fails to address that damage alone is a very poor identifier of skill.
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Post by nocluevok on Mar 18, 2017 19:16:00 GMT -5
Had a match like that today. Me 800k + and that just doesn't happen when I average 350k...everyone else in blue, less than 200k. Red team kicked our collective tails. It almost looked like myself and the red team high scorer got tossed in with a bunch of noobs well below our level. Not fair for anyone involved. People get matched outside their league (both up and down) due to available pool of players. It may be even more imbalanced if you are pulled in as a replacement. I wouldn't assume it is non-random or forcing someone down to punish a high win rate just because it seems to come in streaks. Think about how overactive people's pattern recognition is when they play slot machines. Winning streaks, losing streaks, "hot" machines are all interpreted as meaningful by the gambler and are often accompanied by superstitions. You need to collect a lot of data and do statistical tests to determine if a perceived pattern is real. -Amid Considering the number of players saying the same thing when their win rate hits 60 odd %, I'd say it's a MM thing. You stick to your statistics and I'll stick with my observations. We'll both be happy. |
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ionflow
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Post by ionflow on Mar 18, 2017 20:41:12 GMT -5
People get matched outside their league (both up and down) due to available pool of players. It may be even more imbalanced if you are pulled in as a replacement. I wouldn't assume it is non-random or forcing someone down to punish a high win rate just because it seems to come in streaks. Think about how overactive people's pattern recognition is when they play slot machines. Winning streaks, losing streaks, "hot" machines are all interpreted as meaningful by the gambler and are often accompanied by superstitions. You need to collect a lot of data and do statistical tests to determine if a perceived pattern is real. -Amid Considering the number of players saying the same thing when their win rate hits 60 odd %, I'd say it's a MM thing. You stick to your statistics and I'll stick with my observations. We'll both be happy. Confirmation bias. |
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Post by amidf on Mar 18, 2017 23:18:13 GMT -5
Considering the number of players saying the same thing when their win rate hits 60 odd %, I'd say it's a MM thing. You stick to your statistics and I'll stick with my observations. We'll both be happy. Confirmation bias. It's very common. There could be a legitimate mechanism, but it also could be random. We're not very good at telling the difference. Requires diligence and math. -Amid |
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Post by blastronaut on Mar 18, 2017 23:35:28 GMT -5
I won't lie, I feel this change has in fact, positively benefited the game. It still fails to address that damage alone is a very poor identifier of skill. and that being 1 of 6 on a winning or losing side is a very poor identifier of skill. |
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Post by amidf on Mar 19, 2017 9:59:41 GMT -5
I won't lie, I feel this change has in fact, positively benefited the game. It still fails to address that damage alone is a very poor identifier of skill. and that being 1 of 6 on a winning or losing side is a very poor identifier of skill. Over the course of many matches, it tells you something. |
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Post by blastronaut on Mar 19, 2017 11:33:48 GMT -5
and that being 1 of 6 on a winning or losing side is a very poor identifier of skill. Over the course of many matches, it tells you something. LMAO, yes. It tells you who has played more matches. |
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ionflow
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Post by ionflow on Mar 19, 2017 15:47:13 GMT -5
Over the course of many matches, it tells you something. LMAO, yes. It tells you who has played more matches. No. Just...no. I am in silver 3. It's where I belong with my trash hangar and mediocre skills. If I play 1000 games, I will still be in low silver. Take anyone from legends league and drop them in to silver 3. 100 games later they will be back to diamond. |
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Post by amidf on Mar 19, 2017 16:10:50 GMT -5
Over the course of many matches, it tells you something. LMAO, yes. It tells you who has played more matches. Huh? If your impact is to make it 10% more likely that your team of 6 randoms wins rather than loses, and you score median damage, your points will go up. If your impact is to be the #3 scorer, on average, and you have a 50% win rate, your points go up. You are 1 of 12 players and each game can go either way. But over many games your impact is felt and your points adjusted accordingly. That's why I reject these arguments about tankers or clueless teammates harming ones league standing. Unless you can explain why these bad players are on your team more often than the reds, those arguments make no sense. I have already put forward the argument that if the player is not a tanker and not clueless, then the bias will be toward the red team having more tankers and cluebies, on average. -Amid |
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Post by SGT D00M! on Mar 19, 2017 16:12:12 GMT -5
LMAO, yes. It tells you who has played more matches. No. Just...no. I am in silver 3. It's where I belong with my trash hangar and mediocre skills. If I play 1000 games, I will still be in low silver. Take anyone from legends league and drop them in to silver 3. 100 games later they will be back to diamond. As long as they are dominating damage. AKA, heavies to the top and no home for mediums. Many of us really enjoyed playing medium hangars under the old MM. The new MM is more mixed hangar friendly, but it is cruel to medium bots. Bravo to Pix for making a change to improve the game, but I hope they realize they are not done yet. |
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