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Post by Conflict's Student on Feb 22, 2017 7:59:48 GMT -5
What do you expect people to do in a game where they have spent a tremendous amount of time becoming quite skilled and creating a carefully thought out and upgraded hangar, only to find that their ability to determine their own wins/losses lies 90% outside of their control? There are 11 other players in every match. One outlier player on either side (good or bad) can throw the whole match. And that's not even getting into the pure randomness of how things play out. The solution is to have one on one or two on two matches so that everything you've worked at has an actual discernible effect on the outcome of the match rather than getting lost in a sea of stupid teammate decisions, overpowered enemies, and people's spotty internet connections. So, no, at this point tanking isn't cheating. It is taking your own destiny into your hands in a poorly designed game, which has recently become even worse. I don't think "quite skilled" means what you think it means. Being "quite skilled" implies the ability to succeed against mainstream competition. Tanking to win is tantamount to waving a giant "unskilled and in denial" banner.
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milovy
Recruit
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Post by milovy on Feb 22, 2017 8:09:09 GMT -5
Artificially manipulating your stats so you have favorable matchups is cheating in my world.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 8:18:49 GMT -5
I don't think "quite skilled" means what you think it means. Being "quite skilled" implies the ability to succeed against mainstream competition. Tanking to win is tantamount to waving a giant "unskilled and in denial" banner. What is it about 1/12th of the players you don't understand? What is it about 9/9 vs. 12/12 that is confusing to you? Quite being a schmuck. The only way you can consistently force wins with incompetent teams against better teams is AFTER you've significantly tanked your stats. Arguing against the math and common experience makes you look like the novice, not me. But we can compare numbers of victories if you like.
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Post by SATmaster728 on Feb 22, 2017 8:27:44 GMT -5
I don't think "quite skilled" means what you think it means. Being "quite skilled" implies the ability to succeed against mainstream competition. Tanking to win is tantamount to waving a giant "unskilled and in denial" banner. What is it about 1/12th of the players you don't understand? What is it about 9/9 vs. 12/12 that is confusing to you? Quite being a schmuck. The only way you can consistently force wins with incompetent teams against better teams is AFTER you've significantly tanked your stats. Arguing against the math and common experience makes you look like the novice, not me. But we can compare numbers of victories if you like. the point is not to win all the time, most people play to get silver. If you can win a ton of the time, the others lose. a 50% win rate or a low win rate means other people can have the satisfaction of winning. you can't win them all.
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Post by Conflict's Student on Feb 22, 2017 8:45:36 GMT -5
But we can compare numbers of victories if you like. No need; I'm sure yours is 12 inches long. You also 'win' this thread, this game, and whatever other virtual victory you demand. Feel better now, cupcake? Back to the original intent of this thread, whether tanking is cheating or not appears to depend on your personal sense of urgency to hold an unfair advantage over the other 11 players in each match. It's difficult to resolve differences in epistemology, but it's easier to first agree on where you disagree. One portion of the community seems to feel it's 'fair' to manipulate the system in order to gain relative advantage over their competition outside of actual gameplay (i.e. matchup advantages), while another portion seems to feel that manipulating the matchmaking system is inherently 'unfair.' Perhaps what constitutes "fairness," rather than the definition of "cheating," should be the focus of any poll? Doesn't it really depend on the end purpose of identifying the mainstream opinion in the first place? Should the forum discourage exploration of all ways to play unfairly, or specifically only of ways that are "cheating" (a definition currently being explored)?
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Feb 22, 2017 8:54:43 GMT -5
Should the forum discourage exploration of all ways to play unfairly, or specifically only of ways that are "cheating" (a definition currently being explored)? all I know is that dozens of threads relating to the same topic doesnt exactly make for a very exciting forum .
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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 22, 2017 9:12:29 GMT -5
For the record, now that we have had a glimpse of how the league system will actually work, the advantage in tanking is reduced. This may be a problem that fixes itself. I feel it will go from unethical (immoral or whatever) advice to plain old bad advice. Bad advice is easy to counter, compared to tempting disingenuous advice.
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borrego
Destrier
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Post by borrego on Feb 22, 2017 9:39:53 GMT -5
I am a noob and happy to be one. I'm still trying to figure out gameplay and strategy. But although tanking and the like is not cheating, it's done. I'm not a fan. I will continue to burn through all five of my bots and push for beacons and the win regardless of what's happening around me. What I would like however is to see everyone trying for the same goal. Oh and health bars for my teammates so I can run to their aid when I can. GREAT conversation!
cya in game.....so I can kill you! ;-)
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Post by HEATHEN HERETIC on Feb 22, 2017 9:59:02 GMT -5
I am a noob and happy to be one. I'm still trying to figure out gameplay and strategy. But although tanking and the like is not cheating, it's done. I'm not a fan. I will continue to burn through all five of my bots and push for beacons and the win regardless of what's happening around me. What I would like however is to see everyone trying for the same goal. Oh and health bars for my teammates so I can run to their aid when I can. GREAT conversation! cya in game.....so I can kill you! ;-) There is a definite goal for each side. Beacomons. Gotta catch'em all. That's why I don't understand the controversy here. Light bots are faster and better suited to doing so but die quicker when hit by heavy weapons. So maybe the question this thread should be asking is is it the goal of the matches that actually bothers the people obsessed with damage percentages? Maybe they're just feeling inadequate because they're not capable of backing the little guys' play and keep them?
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 22, 2017 10:05:38 GMT -5
I am a noob and happy to be one. I'm still trying to figure out gameplay and strategy. But although tanking and the like is not cheating, it's done. I'm not a fan. I will continue to burn through all five of my bots and push for beacons and the win regardless of what's happening around me. What I would like however is to see everyone trying for the same goal. Oh and health bars for my teammates so I can run to their aid when I can. GREAT conversation! cya in game.....so I can kill you! ;-) There is a definite goal for each side. Beacomons. Gotta catch'em all. That's why I don't understand the controversy here. Light bots are faster and better suited to doing so but die quicker when hit by heavy weapons. So maybe the question this thread should be asking is is it the goal of the matches that actually bothers the people obsessed with damage percentages? I'm not sure, but I think you are saying that you don't understand why people are upset that some use lights for capping? If so, I don't think that is the controversy, at all. I run 1 capper, sometimes 2, depending on the day. And still compete pretty well with damage dealers. Also, it's not just a light bot that is the reason an all 12 hangar is doing 128k with a 10% win average. That is a tanker is not contributing. I don't think the concern is on pure beacon capping hangars as long as they are working for the win and not ditching after getting 1 beacon. Not sure I addressed what you were asking, but I think I did...
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Post by HEATHEN HERETIC on Feb 22, 2017 10:10:37 GMT -5
Then the solution is actually quite simple. Do away with medium and heavy bots. I'd still play regardless.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 22, 2017 10:12:11 GMT -5
Then the solution is actually quite simple. Do away with medium and heavy bots. I'd still play regardless. The solution to what?
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Post by HEATHEN HERETIC on Feb 22, 2017 10:19:47 GMT -5
Then the solution is actually quite simple. Do away with medium and heavy bots. I'd still play regardless. The solution to what? Tanking. All I'm seeing here is a bunch of whining about how much it's affecting the match making set ups and the ups and downs in a players rankings affects it. And most of the complaints are either "my opposition is too strong" or "my opposition is too weak"(not so much the latter but you get the idea.). Drop the weapons upgrades and rankings as well. Then the playing field will be plowed even for everyone. No need for challenges, everyone gets a trophy.
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borrego
Destrier
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Post by borrego on Feb 22, 2017 10:27:15 GMT -5
See, easy. Burn your bots! Sure you'll lose some. My goofy bots are weak but I'm always pushing towards the beacon!
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 22, 2017 10:28:51 GMT -5
Tanking. All I'm seeing here is a bunch of whining about how much it's affecting the match making set ups and the ups and downs in a players rankings affects it. And most of the complaints are either "my opposition is too strong" or "my opposition is too weak"(not so much the latter but you get the idea.). Drop the weapons upgrades and rankings as well. Then the playing field will be plowed even for everyone. No need for challenges, everyone gets a trophy. OK, then you missed the point... entirely.
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 22, 2017 10:29:57 GMT -5
Then the solution is actually quite simple. Do away with medium and heavy bots. I'd still play regardless. I'd be on board if instead they miniaturized the Medium and Heavy bots and slots so everything performed as a light. I want to rush around in a tiny Ancilelot the size of a stalker.
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Post by launchpad on Feb 22, 2017 10:30:35 GMT -5
Funny thing about the poll is that there is a third option besides YES and NO. No, but dishonorable.
Don't tell me that someone trying to impose that TANKING IS CHEATING and failed, thus making the third option to rally the opinion of people.
Very persistent indeed.....
Lol
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Post by SATmaster728 on Feb 22, 2017 10:30:36 GMT -5
For the record, now that we have had a glimpse of how the league system will actually work, the advantage in tanking is reduced. This may be a problem that fixes itself. I feel it will go from unethical (immoral or whatever) advice to plain old bad advice. Bad advice is easy to counter, compared to tempting disingenuous advice. such as in clash of clans, where a lower league means lower rewards.
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Post by Dredd77 on Feb 22, 2017 10:34:00 GMT -5
Don't tell me that someone trying to impose that TANKING IS CHEATING and failed, thus making the third option to rally the opinion of people. I suppose the tinfoil hat/conspiracy theory angle is one way to look at it. Here's another: if admin wanted to "impose" that, it would be imposed. Simple. The fact that the community perspective is being considered is something laudable.
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Post by SATmaster728 on Feb 22, 2017 10:41:41 GMT -5
Don't tell me that someone trying to impose that TANKING IS CHEATING and failed, thus making the third option to rally the opinion of people. I suppose the tinfoil hat/conspiracy theory angle is one way to look at it. Here's another: if admin wanted to "impose" that, it would be imposed. Simple. The fact that the community perspective is being considered is something laudable. The real point is some consider cheating hacking or screwing the game, while some think it is what you do in the game itself. My opinion is it is not cheating, but dishonorable, as it does not help and lowers their game play experience, and what do you get? weaker enemies that are going to have their game play lowered. It is not worth it to lower other people just for you.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 10:54:06 GMT -5
Then the solution is actually quite simple. Do away with medium and heavy bots. I'd still play regardless. I'd be on board if instead they miniaturized the Medium and Heavy bots and slots so everything performed as a light. I want to rush around in a tiny Ancilelot the size of a stalker. Get a Gareth if you don't already have one.
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Post by HEATHEN HERETIC on Feb 22, 2017 10:57:11 GMT -5
Tanking. All I'm seeing here is a bunch of whining about how much it's affecting the match making set ups and the ups and downs in a players rankings affects it. And most of the complaints are either "my opposition is too strong" or "my opposition is too weak"(not so much the latter but you get the idea.). Drop the weapons upgrades and rankings as well. Then the playing field will be plowed even for everyone. No need for challenges, everyone gets a trophy. OK, then you missed the point... entirely. No, I absolutely understand. Sooo many whiners and criers. Play the game or don't. Spend your money or don't. Developer suggestions thread is there to post in. All these other threads just make for a lot of useless clutter. Adios.
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 22, 2017 11:06:25 GMT -5
It's difficult to resolve differences in epistemology, but it's easier to first agree on where you disagree. e·pis·te·mol·o·gy ??pist??mäl?j?/ noun [PHILOSOPHY] the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope. Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion. It's not every day that I find a word I do not already know, thanks! That is an incredibly on-topic concept. There is entirely too much opinion being treated as fact or gospel around here, but hey, the admins asked for it. The debate must rage on, otherwise there will never be any hope of consensus. It would be nice if folks could refrain from ego- 「going solo」 by starting their own threads on the same topics, but that's a public forum for ya...
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tttt
Destrier
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Post by tttt on Feb 22, 2017 11:16:55 GMT -5
I voted yes because I don't 'dishonorable' accurately describes the situation. I would say it's selfish and detrimental to others' experience.
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Post by Trogon on Feb 22, 2017 11:28:50 GMT -5
I can't answer this poll as worded, because I don't consider "tanking" and "ditching" to be anywhere close to the same thing. Ditching a game here or there can happen or be done for all kinds of different reasons, many of which are widely considered completely legit, others of which people have differing opinions on. Tanking, to me, is repeatedly ditching to artificially lower your performance ranking in order to seal club much lower level/skilled opponents.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 22, 2017 11:49:53 GMT -5
I can't answer this poll as worded, because I don't consider "tanking" and "ditching" to be anywhere close to the same thing. Ditching a game here or there can happen or be done for all kinds of different reasons, many of which are widely considered completely legit, others of which people have differing opinions on. Tanking, to me, is repeatedly ditching to artificially lower your performance ranking in order to seal club much lower level/skilled opponents. If I am not mistaken... the only definition that anyone means by tanking or ditching in regards to the pole... is your last sentence. They have become synonymous in this conversation.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 22, 2017 11:57:43 GMT -5
OK, then you missed the point... entirely. No, I absolutely understand. Sooo many whiners and criers. Play the game or don't. Spend your money or don't. Developer suggestions thread is there to post in. All these other threads just make for a lot of useless clutter. Adios. Well, it IS a discussion forum... Sooo, all the whiners and criers have somewhere to vent, as well as a place to learn and share. I agree that we have lots of threads about MM atm, and I would have loved for them to have been consolidated from the beginning... but... this particular one, is to decide as a community, whether or not to have an official stance on things like "How to club" or "How to tank" diy threads. Of course things will stray in threads where people don't read every post, that is bound to happen, especially as threads get quite large. However, what may be clutter to you, may not be to Joe. What is clutter to Joe, may not be to me. So on and so forth. Adios. Thank you for your contribution!
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 22, 2017 12:10:19 GMT -5
I don't really understand the rationale for splitting tanking into "dishonorable or not". What is "honor" in massive multiplayer online game? Additionally "honor" is incredibly culture specific and is applied differently in Western Culture than it is in Russia, China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, etc..
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psychoticwolf13
GI. Patton
When you hear my howl, you know there's no escape
Posts: 139
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Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Bulwark, Lancelot, Mercury
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Post by psychoticwolf13 on Feb 22, 2017 12:43:37 GMT -5
I think it depends on your motive. If your phone dies or your mom makes you get off, I dont mind that much, more damage that i can do. But if you are ding it just to seal club, you really need to get some morale
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Post by SGT D00M! on Feb 22, 2017 13:34:29 GMT -5
What is this aladeen crap? Fix it.
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