|
Post by spawnreaper on Feb 8, 2017 0:05:14 GMT -5
Well if this system is true,thats too bad, can already see how its going to get exploited, wont involve tanking either. Sigh
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 0:12:55 GMT -5
This is a zero-sum rating system, however since you can't go lower than 0, points will enter the system from the bottom which will lead to steady rating inflation over time. For skilled players with maxed hangars who almost always get top damage, this system is effectively trophies, except they don't reset after 10 days so you just accumulate league points indefinitely. It's obviously broken but since this is just a transitional system I have hope that Pixonic eventually implements a proper Elo based on actual statistics and not some arbitrary distribution. While points will always enter from the bottom via new players, the growth of score cielings will inevitably slow when everyone in top actually has a 1/12 chance for being top score/low score.
|
|
|
Post by ShutUpAndSmokeMyWeed on Feb 8, 2017 0:18:36 GMT -5
This is a zero-sum rating system, however since you can't go lower than 0, points will enter the system from the bottom which will lead to steady rating inflation over time. For skilled players with maxed hangars who almost always get top damage, this system is effectively trophies, except they don't reset after 10 days so you just accumulate league points indefinitely. It's obviously broken but since this is just a transitional system I have hope that Pixonic eventually implements a proper Elo based on actual statistics and not some arbitrary distribution. While points will always enter from the bottom via new players, the growth of score cielings will inevitably slow when everyone in top actually has a 1/12 chance for being top score/low score. Normally I would agree with you, but War Robots doesn't have enough players at the top level to support effective matchmaking for them. I can't remember last time I was third or lower on the losing side, and 90%+ of the time I'm first place when running solo. This problem would easily be solved by using actual Elo instead of this fixed distribution.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 0:34:59 GMT -5
While points will always enter from the bottom via new players, the growth of score cielings will inevitably slow when everyone in top actually has a 1/12 chance for being top score/low score. Normally I would agree with you, but War Robots doesn't have enough players at the top level to support effective matchmaking for them. I can't remember last time I was third or lower on the losing side, and 90%+ of the time I'm first place when running solo. This problem would easily be solved by using actual Elo instead of this fixed distribution. You'd know better than I would. I already posted my peace twice on how to implement an actual Elo based system into War Robots. Time will tell what pix actually listens to. Also, as long as the top bracket is merely a X+ number, the longer a player stays in TT, the less likely up and coming players nearing double digit levels are to see them. It's a system where someone has to lose (as is any game) so, while TT and current players grinding to TT gets further away from newbies, players that start after MM settles and the upper echelon is truly established, have all three factors of time (hangar), time (experience) and lifetime(league points) before they're ever in spitting distance of players that can easily overwhelm them in any given aspect of play they have access to.
|
|
|
Post by whatttupG on Feb 8, 2017 0:47:14 GMT -5
Sorry, the only thing I hate more than the new MM, is threads about the new MM... also, someone said roflcopter so I had to do this. Forgive me but, it's possibly the best gif in the history of the internets.
|
|
Thump
Destrier
Posts: 74
Karma: 41
Pilot name: Thump
Platform: Android
League: Silver
|
Post by Thump on Feb 8, 2017 9:28:33 GMT -5
So,pix has 15 leagues in mind. If their intent is to have each league be within 1-200 points of each other (15 games min to advance, 10 to demote) that means, within the few short weeks of the MM release, a few TT guys have hit the 1500+ mark, qnd everyone else is still in the 0-1300 range. If the cieling of the league distribution system is 2500+ there's the possibility that many players are still 50 or so games away from where their hangar will settle. With tankers that number is closer to 1-200 games. Remember that higher tier players are still getting a huge net gain in comparison to the 8/8 players that run into them. If player A plays 10 games, and wins 1st and 2nd for all of them, they gain around 100 points. If player B plays 20+ games, and places 2nd-3rd in most of them, they're still at that 100 point gain. The biggest flaw of the MM was having everyone start at 0 in a game where there are players that literally have years worth of experience and grinded gear. It's a system that, if inbuilt into a newly released game, where every player is more or less starting at nothing, 90% of our current issues with it wouldn't exist. Riddle me this, how many of the see-saw matches have you running into the same players as the previous one? If the highest point on the latter anyone has reached is the middle, the smaller guy tends to get strong-armed back down, even if he belongs there and the behemoth in his way does not. Think of the waves of win/loss with 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 competition as those big beasties slingshotting past your rating to where they should be. Tin, In the new leagues will we have the ability to play different bot hangars, jump between leagues, for diversity? I suspect not if leagues are based on stats/points and not at all based on bots in your hangar. Are we then slotted by our primary hangar win performance into one of the leagues and there we stay until our avg stats change enough to move us? I think many of us would be satisfied if we could shift hangars between bronze, silver, and gold leagues with clubbing eliminated. It sounds to me like the Leagues would just be a way of naming the slices of the pie they have already baked, and just calling it Leagues. I would prefer that they rank players, give us a batting average so to speak, an average across all hangars we field, and then if I squad a totally different (medium) hangar, then place me in with similar high batting average players, fielding a similar hangar for that battle. Give us 15 Leagues in 3 tiers: 1- 5 leagues for Bronze, 6-10 for Silver, and 11-15 for Gold based on hangars. Bronze Leagues might be all light and medium bots with no gold or WSP bots or weapons. if you add a heavy bot or a gold or WSP bot or weapon, you are automatically bumped to Silver. And if your average is high you are automatically bumped to the highest league within Silver. Best players are forced to play best players within each tier of Leagues so there is no clubbing. Penalize tanking. Clans could squad similar hangars but will self manage if one player has overpowered equipment for the League they want to play and the whole squad is bumped up. Been there done that.I have played less but certainly a few hundred games since the new MM. Matches are mostly quite competitive, down to the last few minutes. But still a wide range of bot and weapon levels to get to that end. My bots are all level 6 with weapons avg.g at probably 9-10. Running a Gareth, Galahad, Griff, Carnage, and Fury. Win rate is tight between 48-54%. A teammate today was a fully maxed hangar of 12/12s and a 66% win rate. Pix really needs to find a way to give us diversity of game play, allowing us to play different hangars, but putting high performers against high performers. Then they will really have something great .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 11:46:43 GMT -5
So,pix has 15 leagues in mind. If their intent is to have each league be within 1-200 points of each other (15 games min to advance, 10 to demote) that means, within the few short weeks of the MM release, a few TT guys have hit the 1500+ mark, qnd everyone else is still in the 0-1300 range. If the cieling of the league distribution system is 2500+ there's the possibility that many players are still 50 or so games away from where their hangar will settle. With tankers that number is closer to 1-200 games. Remember that higher tier players are still getting a huge net gain in comparison to the 8/8 players that run into them. If player A plays 10 games, and wins 1st and 2nd for all of them, they gain around 100 points. If player B plays 20+ games, and places 2nd-3rd in most of them, they're still at that 100 point gain. The biggest flaw of the MM was having everyone start at 0 in a game where there are players that literally have years worth of experience and grinded gear. It's a system that, if inbuilt into a newly released game, where every player is more or less starting at nothing, 90% of our current issues with it wouldn't exist. Riddle me this, how many of the see-saw matches have you running into the same players as the previous one? If the highest point on the latter anyone has reached is the middle, the smaller guy tends to get strong-armed back down, even if he belongs there and the behemoth in his way does not. Think of the waves of win/loss with 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 competition as those big beasties slingshotting past your rating to where they should be. Tin, In the new leagues will we have the ability to play different bot hangars, jump between leagues, for diversity? I suspect not if leagues are based on stats/points and not at all based on bots in your hangar.  Are we then slotted by our primary hangar win performance into one of the leagues and there we stay until our avg stats change enough to move us? I think many of us would be satisfied if we could shift hangars between bronze, silver, and gold leagues with clubbing eliminated. It sounds to me like the Leagues would just be a way of naming the slices of the pie they have already baked, and just calling it Leagues. I would prefer that they rank players, give us a batting average so to speak, an average across all hangars we field, and then if I squad a totally different (medium) hangar, then place me in with similar high batting average players, fielding a similar hangar for that battle. Give us 15 Leagues in 3 tiers: 1- 5 leagues for Bronze, 6-10 for Silver, and 11-15 for Gold based on hangars. Bronze Leagues might be all light and medium bots with no gold or WSP bots or weapons. if you add a heavy bot or a gold or WSP bot or weapon, you are automatically bumped to Silver. And if your average is high you are automatically bumped to the highest league within Silver. Best players are forced  to play best players within each tier of Leagues so there is no clubbing. Penalize tanking. Clans could squad similar hangars but will self manage if one player has overpowered equipment for the League they want to play and the whole squad is bumped up. Been there done that.I have played less but certainly a few hundred games since the new MM.  Matches are mostly quite competitive, down to the last few minutes. But still a wide range of bot and weapon levels to get to that end. My bots are all level 6 with weapons avg.g at probably 9-10. Running a Gareth, Galahad, Griff, Carnage, and Fury.  Win rate is tight between 48-54%. A teammate today was a fully maxed hangar of 12/12s and a 66% win rate. Pix really needs to find a way to give us diversity of game play, allowing us to play different hangars, but putting high performers against high performers. Then they will really have something great . Unfortunately not, pix has taken War Robots into the RPG realm of grinding, where end game is crammed in our face as the desired result. Yes, leagues will just be placing an obvious stamp on what's already here, with the added bonus of regular rewards that will substitute "Pilot of" activity based missions. In pix's blog they adressed that many players prefer the casual environment that the old MM allowed, and that they are considering options on how to return that gameplay experience to War Robots. The largest possibility being a new game mode. I've already made suggestions elsewhere on how to implement a proper Elo-like system in War Robots while using hangar score as a base, whether or not Pix's intentions and actions will line up with the suggestions made by others and myself, is something we cannot guess at. If anything, I'm going to post my suggestion for a fair hangar based MM in dev suggestions in it's own thread, and propose it for an "unranked" game mode. The biggest liability of an unranked game mode, will likely be a lack of Au rewards though.
|
|
Brimstone
GI. Patton
Posts: 144
Karma: 137
Pilot name: Brimstone
Platform: Android
League: Champion
Server Region: North America
|
Post by Brimstone on Feb 8, 2017 12:09:56 GMT -5
Sorry Tin, but it's obvious the new MM does not take the hangar you are playing into account. I'm fine with the wild fluctuations as ratings avg. out over time. It is what it is. But I ran my test again running a entire 3/6 COSSACK hangar last night (with 100+ games in the bag playing mostly my 9/10 "gold" hangar) and it was a joke.
All 5 games I went against - on avg. - 9/9 gold hangars. My team actually won 3 out of 5 (I mostly tried to capture beacons) despite my hangar. But here is no way Pix, or anyone, can rationale MM putting that hangar is those matches if MM took into account the hangar weight. IF MM is just looking at the past ratings and utterly ignoring the actual hangar, that is one big serious flaw.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 12:28:24 GMT -5
Sorry Tin, but it's obvious the new MM does not take the hangar you are playing into account. I'm fine with the wild fluctuations as ratings avg. out over time. It is what it is. But I ran my test again running a entire 3/6 COSSACK hangar last night (with 100+ games in the bag playing mostly my 9/10 "gold" hangar) and it was a joke. All 5 games I went against - on avg. - 9/9 gold hangars. My team actually won 3 out of 5 (I mostly tried to capture beacons) despite my hangar. But here is no way Pix, or anyone, can rationale MM putting that hangar is those matches if MM took into account the hangar weight. IF MM is just looking at the past ratings and utterly ignoring the actual hangar, that is one big serious flaw. I never said the current system is taking hangar level into account, only that I'm advocating a system that does, and have it posted under the dev suggestions. The current rationale of the new MM is catered to the leagues that do not yet exist. The leagues are assumed to be brackets of MM scores divided in a way to rank time distributed rewards (in the manner of the "Pilot of the hour/day/week/month). If that assumption is correct, than players with lower level hangars and high activity will reap the same benefits as lower activity players with stronger hangars (Might vs force of will), at the cost of those more active players having to face the beasties in their same league. The only rationality Pix could have thatI can reason out of this whole scenario, is the will to control freemium Au earnings in a way they previously could not. Farming and clubbing are the same in the eyes of the unbias and the ones losing the most from it. In Pix's point of view (and my own on this matter) any uneven distribution of levels was gaming the system against the uninformed. (So 4/12 Gepard farmers are, from a nuetral standpoint, no better/worse than 4/8 Medium bot farmers) With the match-based Au choked, a league based Au distribution allows Pix to control how much non coin Au is created, with those that are spending being the obvious recipients of greater freemium rewards. Early in the game's life Au was super hard to come by without spending, and as such, premium items belonged primarily to paying players. Pix slowly lost that control rate of earning as more and more players gamed the system. This reestablishes that control in a way that came as a great culture shock to the game's population, and without the league rewards, has been choking the player base harder than Pix should be pressing for.
|
|
|
Post by Conflict's Student on Feb 8, 2017 12:42:06 GMT -5
In the new leagues will we have the ability to play different bot hangars, jump between leagues, for diversity? I suspect not if leagues are based on stats/points and not at all based on bots in your hangar. Are we then slotted by our primary hangar win performance into one of the leagues and there we stay until our avg stats change enough to move us? I think many of us would be satisfied if we could shift hangars between bronze, silver, and gold leagues with clubbing eliminated. It sounds to me like the Leagues would just be a way of naming the slices of the pie they have already baked, and just calling it Leagues. I would prefer that they rank players, give us a batting average so to speak, an average across all hangars we field, and then if I squad a totally different (medium) hangar, then place me in with similar high batting average players, fielding a similar hangar for that battle. Give us 15 Leagues in 3 tiers: 1- 5 leagues for Bronze, 6-10 for Silver, and 11-15 for Gold based on hangars. Bronze Leagues might be all light and medium bots with no gold or WSP bots or weapons. if you add a heavy bot or a gold or WSP bot or weapon, you are automatically bumped to Silver. And if your average is high you are automatically bumped to the highest league within Silver. Best players are forced to play best players within each tier of Leagues so there is no clubbing. Penalize tanking. Clans could squad similar hangars but will self manage if one player has overpowered equipment for the League they want to play and the whole squad is bumped up. Been there done that.I have played less but certainly a few hundred games since the new MM. Matches are mostly quite competitive, down to the last few minutes. But still a wide range of bot and weapon levels to get to that end. My bots are all level 6 with weapons avg.g at probably 9-10. Running a Gareth, Galahad, Griff, Carnage, and Fury. Win rate is tight between 48-54%. A teammate today was a fully maxed hangar of 12/12s and a 66% win rate. Pix really needs to find a way to give us diversity of game play, allowing us to play different hangars, but putting high performers against high performers. Then they will really have something great . If the desire is for a "casual" gaming option where hangars are "equal," it should let players pick whatever they want to use for a battle within the limits of that 'tier.' Let people mix & match hangars within given 'tier' limits without handing an advantage to people who have been around longer and therefore have (a) Au/WSP bots and weapons, and/or (b) highly upgraded bot or weapon levels. Make everything selectable by the players (within the limitations of hangar score 'tiers') instead of 'campaign mode.' Otherwise you've gone back to P2W/clubbing/pretending-to-be-good-with-equipment-unavailable-to-the-competition and new players will simply choose the other game mode. I'm all about level playing fields. If you're going to restrict a player's hangar based on what they've "earned" then that player should have a power rating that reflects what they have access to. Otherwise give the same access to everybody.
|
|
|
Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 8, 2017 12:52:33 GMT -5
So here's the new strategy I've come up with to maximize my ratio of efficiency between time spent in matches and Au prizes earned. Going for the top damage rank awards means you will face tougher opponents one way or another, which means fighting harder along with everybody else, ergo less efficient. The majority of players don't seem to bother with beacon capturing, although that is changing recently as more people realize these new pathways. Ergo it's better to strive for the Medal of Capture award, and don't worry about doing damage. This way you can gain 5 Au per match pretty consistently, and when you 'win' the lower damage rate won't have so much impact on future rounds. As a bonus, when you do lose a match, even if you did minimal damage, nobody is going to hate on you if you've capped the most beacons, and you still get a lower performance rating.
So, I'm shifting all of my builds to maximize penetration tactics for beacon capturing, focusing on mid-range support &/or splash damage, with a little plasma sprinkled on top. I'm slowing upgrading a Cossack with an Ecu as a dedicated capper on my iOS account. You read that right, and I'll report how a toothless grasshopper performs later. On the flip side [meaning my Android account], I've re-built my LoS-Range Leo with 3 Gekkos and a Nashorn as a cleanup/revenge role, which lets me pick off fools at the end of a match but still doesn't generate a lot of damage output.
My real questions for the community, however, are about the moral issues and ethical standards involved in this strategy. Ethically, the game allows it, but I feel some moral ambiguity. Technically, I am exploiting the system through deliberately lowering my average damage output. The shade of grey would be if that is considered as morally wrong as the new 'clubber smurfing' in doing everything you can to lose matches period. IMO, it's similar to the old moral debate of 'clubbing' versus 'farming' and of course, I don't think farming is so wrong.
|
|
|
Post by spawnreaper on Feb 8, 2017 13:02:06 GMT -5
Sorry Tin, but it's obvious the new MM does not take the hangar you are playing into account. I'm fine with the wild fluctuations as ratings avg. out over time. It is what it is. But I ran my test again running a entire 3/6 COSSACK hangar last night (with 100+ games in the bag playing mostly my 9/10 "gold" hangar) and it was a joke. All 5 games I went against - on avg. - 9/9 gold hangars. My team actually won 3 out of 5 (I mostly tried to capture beacons) despite my hangar. But here is no way Pix, or anyone, can rationale MM putting that hangar is those matches if MM took into account the hangar weight. IF MM is just looking at the past ratings and utterly ignoring the actual hangar, that is one big serious flaw. I never said the current system is taking hangar level into account, only that I'm advocating a system that does, and have it posted under the dev suggestions. The current rationale of the new MM is catered to the leagues that do not yet exist. The leagues are assumed to be brackets of MM scores divided in a way to rank time distributed rewards (in the manner of the "Pilot of the hour/day/week/month). If that assumption is correct, than players with lower level hangars and high activity will reap the same benefits as lower activity players with stronger hangars (Might vs force of will), at the cost of those more active players having to face the beasties in their same league. The only rationality Pix could have thatI can reason out of this whole scenario, is the will to control freemium Au earnings in a way they previously could not. Farming and clubbing are the same in the eyes of the unbias and the ones losing the most from it. In Pix's point of view (and my own on this matter) any uneven distribution of levels was gaming the system against the uninformed. (So 4/12 Gepard farmers are, from a nuetral standpoint, no better/worse than 4/8 Medium bot farmers) With the match-based Au choked, a league based Au distribution allows Pix to control how much non coin Au is created, with those that are spending being the obvious recipients of greater freemium rewards. Early in the game's life Au was super hard to come by without spending, and as such, premium items belonged primarily to paying players. Pix slowly lost that control rate of earning as more and more players gamed the system. This reestablishes that control in a way that came as a great culture shock to the game's population, and without the league rewards, has been choking the player base harder than Pix should be pressing for. I get what you are saying. My problem is while i like playing competitive this game is based on war. In war you learn to use every tactical advantage you can. So from my point of view i blame pix for bad basic training. I dont blame people for making the best bot they can. And yes i thought old mm needed to be fixed. New mm is alot worse though.
|
|
Brimstone
GI. Patton
Posts: 144
Karma: 137
Pilot name: Brimstone
Platform: Android
League: Champion
Server Region: North America
|
Post by Brimstone on Feb 8, 2017 13:48:04 GMT -5
I hear ya. And I agree to some extent that running a max hangar within a tier is kinda, sorta like clubbing against the uninformed. Maybe the leagues will bring back a psuedo-tiering system that combines hangars and pilot rating. That would be fine by me. I never clubbed or actively farmed for gold, I just really enjoy Mech style pvp and have always had the end goal of 12/12 in mind for the pure challenge of it. I don't mind the slow grind of getting Ag for upgrades, even if it can be painful at times.
My biggest lament against the new MM is the forced lack of variety. Anything that's not "gold" level just gets pulverized. I don't mind losing good/fun matches but having a TT Fury target my little cossack has no entertainment value. I like my gold hangar (mobile 3 knife, 2 mid) and it fits my play style of being aggressive but also just hanging back sometimes and sweeping from afar. But my cossack hangar was pure fun and just for the shiggles. I even liked my "silver" one (4/8 meds) for the simply variety of game play it offered.
And in the end - isn't that what everyone is playing for? To have fun? I still like the game and don't mind running gold but taking away the lower bots just plain sucks. Even if Pix is going P2W, I can handle it as that is simply one more challenge to overcome and, with time, you can negate the P2W advantage. I just don't understand how making half the game content - light/med bots and Ag weapons - useless can be a good idea even if it was unintentional.
|
|
|
Post by loren on Feb 8, 2017 13:49:42 GMT -5
While points will always enter from the bottom via new players, the growth of score cielings will inevitably slow when everyone in top actually has a 1/12 chance for being top score/low score. Normally I would agree with you, but War Robots doesn't have enough players at the top level to support effective matchmaking for them. I can't remember last time I was third or lower on the losing side, and 90%+ of the time I'm first place when running solo. This problem would easily be solved by using actual Elo instead of this fixed distribution. Hi Guys, New to the forum and it is the MM system that has brought me here. From everything I have been seeing this is an Elo ranking system with no checks. But Elo only works when all players have the same gear. Walking War Robots is anything but that, hanger volume, bot type, bot level and gun level change that. None of the values we currently see in game seem to mean anything and I think people are confusing win % as your "Player rating". The player ratings must be a hidden value because I did tank my rating and played normally, once my player rank settled, my win % seems to hover around 60% - 70% based on the last 50. The problem I find is that your hanger score is not changing your MM results. I loaded 5 1-1 setup then loaded 5 6-8 setup and got the same type of results once I hit the field. Player level isn't even being considered because after tanking I found myself surrounded by very low level newbs. I crushed through 26 matches before getting back to a level 30 player level with similar setups. They need to add in extra balances, level 30 with level 30 only, perhaps break it down even further for the newer younger players like has been suggested in other post. I do get a slingshot match here or there that places me with a high 10-12 group, I just grab a couple beacons for a quick 7500Ag and throw myself to the slaughter. Pixonic really needs to fix this mess they created. Just "playing normally" is not fixing this situation, seeing lots of issues and complaints in clan/squad chat with the same out of balance results from MM. Just my 2 cents worth. Also Tin, I think that data from the pic might be a little off. I found that a 6th place spot on a win still dropped my player rating. Loren.
|
|
|
Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 8, 2017 14:12:25 GMT -5
One more time for the record.
If you are level 30 and attempt to field bots and guns below level 4 (and some say level 6) you will get caught in a special anti-clubber system and forced to fight high performance hangers based on the highest level of any bot or weapon that you own, regardless of what you are attempting to use in your active hangar. Any complaints about horrible match-ups when you are fielding less than level 6 equipment are now your own damned fault, as doing so is now ethically unacceptable, because the game no longer allows it. In other words, if you are already level 30, and have even a single level 11 weapon, but you make a hangar set of all level 4/6 builds, the Matchmaker will treat you like a cheater (exploiter, clubber, etc), and match you up with pilots that have level 11 equipment as well.
Your "Win %" has NOTHING to do with the new Performance Rating, and said PR has been confirmed anecdotally as a hidden value. The hidden PR rating changes based on the total damage per match, relative your peers, and adjusted by winning or losing the match overall.
|
|
|
Post by SlowReflexes on Feb 8, 2017 14:21:24 GMT -5
One more time for the record. If you are level 30 and attempt to field bots and guns below level 4 (and some say level 6) you will get caught in a special anti-clubber system and forced to fight high performance hangers based on the highest level of any bot or weapon that you own, regardless of what you are attempting to use in your active hangar. Any complaints about horrible match-ups when you are fielding less than level 6 equipment are now your own damned fault, as doing so is now ethically unacceptable, because the game no longer allows it. In other words, if you are already level 30, and have even a single level 11 weapon, but you make a hangar set of all level 4/6 builds, the Matchmaker will treat you like a cheater (exploiter, clubber, etc), and match you up with pilots that have level 11 equipment as well. Your "Win %" has NOTHING to do with the new Performance Rating, and said PR has been confirmed anecdotally as a hidden value. The hidden PR rating changes based on the total damage per match, relative your peers, and adjusted by winning or losing the match overall. Are you self aware? So playing a lower hangar is now against the rules and so unethical. It seems though, that tanking is fine because the system not only allows but rewards it. You're so busy trying to cheerlead the Pix party line, you seem to have gone blind to the flaws and contradictions in what you're reflexively defending. Edit: To be fair, this post taken out of context looks terrible. In other posts you do seem to be aware of the moral and ethical gray area involved in simply playing in a way that the new MM system incentivizes - screw damage, take beacons. You're not technically tanking, you're trying to win, but you're still sandbagging by not trying as hard as you *could* to win. Smurfing? Is that what you call it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 14:23:58 GMT -5
Lets face it, we're seeing the product of upgrade costs/times being nerfed as well. Some of the TT pilots had it fairly easy in terms of wait time and cost, and many 10/10+ players are just starting to get to the 12/12 range after being in the same 9/9-10/10 level range they were at pre-nerf. With the astronomical time it takes to get a hangar from 9/9 to 12/12, don't expect many players in a match that aren't 10/10 or 12/12 once you start performing well with 8/8+. For someone with a 6/7-8 heavy, 7/8 medium hangar this is absolute ?poo-poo?. I just finished a match where the lowest-scoring opponent had a 10/12 Galahad in their hangar. Clearly Pix has zero interest in me having a good gameplay experience if the matchmaking is going to be that blind. I'm sorry to see there are so many near-max rejects who can't score damage against their peers. But having them bounce back and forth between the 7+/7+ world (where their firepower gives them a tremendous edge) and where they actually belong isn't a solution. If they are serious about leagues, then they need to have gear tests to prevent players from slipping back down, otherwise the league standings are going to be brutally gamed by players who actually belong in higher leagues.
|
|
|
Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 8, 2017 14:36:57 GMT -5
Are you self aware? So playing a lower hangar is now against the rules and so unethical. It seems though, that tanking is fine because the system not only allows but rewards it. You're so busy trying to cheerlead the Pix party line, you seem to have gone blind to the flaws and contradictions in what you're reflexively defending. I was pointing out technical inaccuracies from previous responses in this thread. I made no statements of judgement other than an ethical definition. I am not "cheerleading" anything in this ?poo-poo?-show that Pixonic has dumped on us. Yes, 'by the rules' or 'as the game allows', attempting to 'club' (as in fielding low-level equipment) results in a specific penalty being applied, thus it is 'against the rules' from an ethical stand point. However, smurfing (or 'tanking' if you insist), is currently not punished by any means, thus it is ethically acceptable, however the community at large appears to find it morally wrong. Had you read up a little further, you might have noticed my earlier reply where I specifically asked for input on moral and ethical quandaries related to exploiting the new MM and the Performance Rating metric. C'mon, mate, I expected better of you, give me a real response instead of some knee-jerk "You're just an asskissing idiot" reaction. [Post-edit Edit] You did read up, good [/] war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/post/40574
|
|
|
Post by loren on Feb 8, 2017 14:44:24 GMT -5
One more time for the record. If you are level 30 and attempt to field bots and guns below level 4 (and some say level 6) you will get caught in a special anti-clubber system and forced to fight high performance hangers based on the highest level of any bot or weapon that you own, regardless of what you are attempting to use in your active hangar. Any complaints about horrible match-ups when you are fielding less than level 6 equipment are now your own damned fault, as doing so is now ethically unacceptable, because the game no longer allows it. In other words, if you are already level 30, and have even a single level 11 weapon, but you make a hangar set of all level 4/6 builds, the Matchmaker will treat you like a cheater (exploiter, clubber, etc), and match you up with pilots that have level 11 equipment as well. Your "Win %" has NOTHING to do with the new Performance Rating, and said PR has been confirmed anecdotally as a hidden value. The hidden PR rating changes based on the total damage per match, relative your peers, and adjusted by winning or losing the match overall. Hello Daemon, I thought that this might have been a possibility when the change went in. But the results I have found are very different, there is no anti clubbing script or check in their new MM system or I would not be able to actually club level 3 - 29 players. I am level 30 running 1-1 or 6-8 vs level 3-30 setup 1-4 if they are lucky. MM works purely and solely on PR rating at the moment, said anti clubbing script should have found my 6-8 rhino or my 1-5 Gepard mixing it up with a bunch of level 4 1-4 hangers. I have tested the procedure on 2 personal accounts and a few clan accounts. MM is currently broke as f--- and the low level players are now fodder. There is no defense for its continued use and should be removed until an actual balanced system is put into place. There are no checks, balances or scripts. If there is an anti-clubber system then I am here to tell Pix that it is faulty or the power needs to be turned on to said system. edit (What I do see is a possible cash cow on their end to boost Au sales for the lower/small hangers to get back into the mix. Other then that their is no reason for this system to continue to run as broken as it is.) Loren.
|
|
|
Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 8, 2017 14:55:37 GMT -5
Hello Daemon, I thought that this might have been a possibility when the change went in. But the results I have found are very different, there is no anti clubbing script or check in their new MM system or I would not be able to actually club level 3 - 29 players. I am level 30 running 1-1 or 6-8 vs level 3-30 setup 1-4 if they are lucky. MM works purely and solely on PR rating at the moment, said anti clubbing script should have found my 6-8 rhino or my 1-5 Gepard mixing it up with a bunch of level 4 1-4 hangers. I have tested the procedure on 2 personal accounts and a few clan accounts. MM is currently broke as f--- and the low level players are now fodder. There is no defense for its continued use and should be removed until an actual balanced system is put into place. There are no checks, balances or scripts. If there is an anti-clubber system then I am here to tell Pix that it is faulty or the power needs to be turned on to said system. Loren. Methinks you've misunderstood. This is a specific reaction from the new Matchmaker triggered by explicit criteria. 1) Pilot level equals 30 2) All robots and guns in ACTIVE hangar are at or below level 4. (There is some debate in this, may go as high as 'up to level 6') While I don't know what exactly the MM matches you up with at that point, everybody that's encountered this penalty has stated they find themselves fighting maxed out hangars. The 'clubbing' you are describing seems to be more of the 'neo-clubbing' where some pilots are maliciously losing matches in order to drastically lower their performance rating, and then 'club' their way back to their proper rating positions. 2 entirely separate creatures...
|
|
|
Post by blastronaut on Feb 8, 2017 15:14:04 GMT -5
This is a zero-sum rating system, however since you can't go lower than 0, points will enter the system from the bottom which will lead to steady rating inflation over time. For skilled players with maxed hangars who almost always get top damage, this system is effectively trophies, except they don't reset after 10 days so you just accumulate league points indefinitely. It's obviously broken but since this is just a transitional system I have hope that Pixonic eventually implements a proper Elo based on actual statistics and not some arbitrary distribution. They seriously don't reset? So the best TT players will have ratings that are insanely high? I don't really see the point, or why a game 1000 matches ago would be reflective of my current skill and hangar.
|
|
|
Post by whatttupG on Feb 8, 2017 15:16:11 GMT -5
I never said the current system is taking hangar level into account, only that I'm advocating a system that does, and have it posted under the dev suggestions. The current rationale of the new MM is catered to the leagues that do not yet exist. The leagues are assumed to be brackets of MM scores divided in a way to rank time distributed rewards (in the manner of the "Pilot of the hour/day/week/month). If that assumption is correct, than players with lower level hangars and high activity will reap the same benefits as lower activity players with stronger hangars (Might vs force of will), at the cost of those more active players having to face the beasties in their same league. The only rationality Pix could have thatI can reason out of this whole scenario, is the will to control freemium Au earnings in a way they previously could not. Farming and clubbing are the same in the eyes of the unbias and the ones losing the most from it. In Pix's point of view (and my own on this matter) any uneven distribution of levels was gaming the system against the uninformed. (So 4/12 Gepard farmers are, from a nuetral standpoint, no better/worse than 4/8 Medium bot farmers) With the match-based Au choked, a league based Au distribution allows Pix to control how much non coin Au is created, with those that are spending being the obvious recipients of greater freemium rewards. Early in the game's life Au was super hard to come by without spending, and as such, premium items belonged primarily to paying players. Pix slowly lost that control rate of earning as more and more players gamed the system. This reestablishes that control in a way that came as a great culture shock to the game's population, and without the league rewards, has been choking the player base harder than Pix should be pressing for. I get what you are saying. My problem is while i like playing competitive this game is based on war. In war you learn to use every tactical advantage you can. So from my point of view i blame pix for bad basic training. I dont blame people for making the best bot they can. And yes i thought old mm needed to be fixed. New mm is alot worse though. This post is dead on, excellent job. Some row the boat, some steer the boat. Ask yourself, is this a problem in rowing or steering. I believe Capt. Pixonic has a finger clearly pointed towards the oars!!
|
|
|
Post by ShutUpAndSmokeMyWeed on Feb 8, 2017 15:22:38 GMT -5
This is a zero-sum rating system, however since you can't go lower than 0, points will enter the system from the bottom which will lead to steady rating inflation over time. For skilled players with maxed hangars who almost always get top damage, this system is effectively trophies, except they don't reset after 10 days so you just accumulate league points indefinitely. It's obviously broken but since this is just a transitional system I have hope that Pixonic eventually implements a proper Elo based on actual statistics and not some arbitrary distribution. They seriously don't reset? So the best TT players will have ratings that are insanely high? I don't really see the point, or why a game 1000 matches ago would be reflective of my current skill and hangar. We don't know if they reset. I only drew those conclusions by assuming that the picture posted tells the whole story (which it probably doesn't). I know some other games reset ratings at the start of every season and have a proper Elo system, so I hope Pix will go the same route.
|
|
Brimstone
GI. Patton
Posts: 144
Karma: 137
Pilot name: Brimstone
Platform: Android
League: Champion
Server Region: North America
|
Post by Brimstone on Feb 8, 2017 15:38:19 GMT -5
Lilith - from my 2nd post:
[edit] Having a TT Fury target my little cossack has no entertainment value. [edit] My cossack hangar was pure fun and just for the shiggles.
So what you are saying is that since I'm level 30 and want to play a cossack for fun, I need to go 6/6 just to not get blown away in the first 10 secs from across the board? Even if I was crazy and spent the Ag to level a cossack to 12, it still wouldn't last more the 1 min into a match. Thus, this new MM has essentially made any light/med bot useless unless it's a Stalker, Gary, Gal, Fujin, or Carny. The only Pats you see are 4xAphid and maybe a maxed Boa from time to time.
If that is how clubbing is going to be eliminated, it's a totally shyte implementation. If Pix wants to put this hard line in, then they should simply do an official release statement to clarify the rules to the playing base. "Want to play light/med bots and lvl 30? You must be min 4/4" or whatever. From there let MM take over.
|
|
|
Post by spawnreaper on Feb 8, 2017 15:55:15 GMT -5
One more time for the record.( If you are level 30 and attempt to field bots and guns below level 4 (and some say level 6) you will get caught in a special anti-clubber system and forced to fight high performance hangers based on the highest level of any bot or weapon that you own, regardless of what you are attempting to use in your active hangar. Any complaints about horrible match-ups when you are fielding less than level 6 equipment are now your own damned fault, as doing so is now ethically unacceptable, because the game no longer allows it. In other words, if you are already level 30, and have even a single level 11 weapon, but you make a hangar set of all level 4/6 builds, the Matchmaker will treat you like a cheater (exploiter, clubber, etc), and match you up with pilots that have level 11 equipment as well. Your "Win %" has NOTHING to do with the new Performance Rating, and said PR has been confirmed anecdotally as a hidden value. The hidden PR rating changes based on the total damage per match, relative your peers, and adjusted by winning or losing the match overall. Thats fine nerf me away all you want pix not going to change my gepards because i like the lvls they are at and im staying with them. If my gameplay sucks because of it idc. If you my teammate and dont like it. Complain to pix im pretty well done with mm talk . New league system by the looks of it is going to prove how this mm and not the old one is going be exploited. Again its pixs fault. When you have everyone up in arms about new mm cept for a minorityand you still dont listen pix. Well guess imma just wait for new game to come out that copies the old mm system. One thing ive found some people dont learn till it cost them money.
|
|
|
Post by loren on Feb 8, 2017 15:58:53 GMT -5
Hello Daemon, I thought that this might have been a possibility when the change went in. But the results I have found are very different, there is no anti clubbing script or check in their new MM system or I would not be able to actually club level 3 - 29 players. I am level 30 running 1-1 or 6-8 vs level 3-30 setup 1-4 if they are lucky. MM works purely and solely on PR rating at the moment, said anti clubbing script should have found my 6-8 rhino or my 1-5 Gepard mixing it up with a bunch of level 4 1-4 hangers. I have tested the procedure on 2 personal accounts and a few clan accounts. MM is currently broke as f--- and the low level players are now fodder. There is no defense for its continued use and should be removed until an actual balanced system is put into place. There are no checks, balances or scripts. If there is an anti-clubber system then I am here to tell Pix that it is faulty or the power needs to be turned on to said system. Loren. Methinks you've misunderstood. This is a specific reaction from the new Matchmaker triggered by explicit criteria. 1) Pilot level equals 30 2) All robots and guns in ACTIVE hangar are at or below level 4. (There is some debate in this, may go as high as 'up to level 6') While I don't know what exactly the MM matches you up with at that point, everybody that's encountered this penalty has stated they find themselves fighting maxed out hangars. The 'clubbing' you are describing seems to be more of the 'neo-clubbing' where some pilots are maliciously losing matches in order to drastically lower their performance rating, and then 'club' their way back to their proper rating positions. 2 entirely separate creatures... Yes Daemon I believe we are talking about two similar but different beasts resulting from the same change. I am talking about players throwing matches to get out the 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 zone in order to find a more balanced MM experience. Just for 「dookie」s and giggles I did a few test runs on some setups you did describe that should trigger the clubbing script since I'm down in this low rang area. Active Hanger - 6 battles with following hanger setup. 1-5 Gepard/Pinata x 5 1-8 Gepard/Magnum x 5 1-1 Gepard/Molot x 5 1-1 Destrier stock purchase x 5 1-1 Destrier stock x4 and a 6-8 Rhino/Orkan-Pinata, just for 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 value. 1-1,2,3 & 4 Destrier/spiral, mix of missles because I don't have a lot of weapons that low. Let me know if there is a setup you want me to test. I was still getting matched up with 3-7ish level players and I wasn't the only level 30 on run 4. Unnamed player came through like a hurricane and mopped us up with a Galahad/Taran-Mag 8-10 x 2. We managed to drop one but it was pretty much just LOL in my Stock Destriers. Just an FYI for Pix if they happen to browse this. Loren.
|
|
|
Post by tsunisterbr on Feb 8, 2017 16:09:24 GMT -5
Sorry Tin, but I can't accept having the blame and responsability for the current mess in MM being throw at the players. That's just silly. Stop defending Pixo so fiercelly, please. I've already expressed my discontent with Pix's decisions in other threads (and the OP). If you're tanking, you're making it worse. I can only explain what we have to deal with, and ask those that can see to do what is necessary to improve the situation with what we're given. At no point have I ever said we should cut Pix some slack(I neither attack nor support any player or entity in/on this game), only what we can do to understand what we have and what we can do to make the best of it. If you want to tank, go on ahead, just as I would have said go on and club/farm on the old MM. Every action has consequences, my only intent is to state what I see. My cracking of the old MM lead to massive increases in clubbing/farming,my statements about geps have always been from a balance standpoint, and my observations of the new MM are of the same spirits. I don't tank, but I definitely don't criticize who does. However, I just stopped bothering about keeping my War Robots as high as I can (it was one of my motivations in this game), and do quit early any game I'm in, if I notice I'm going to face TT adversaries. I do feel bad for my team, but it's better if that becomes a trend and EVERYBODY starts to do the same. Maybe Pix will notice that, then.
|
|
|
Post by Mechronis on Feb 8, 2017 16:10:53 GMT -5
A safegaurd exists for high-teir players that keeps them from seal clubbing; lvl4 and below gear I think. It basically launches you back up the ladder.
|
|
|
Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 8, 2017 16:16:06 GMT -5
Lilith - from my 2nd post: [edit] Having a TT Fury target my little cossack has no entertainment value. [edit] My cossack hangar was pure fun and just for the shiggles. So what you are saying is that since I'm level 30 and want to play a cossack for fun, I need to go 6/6 just to not get blown away in the first 10 secs from across the board? Even if I was crazy and spent the Ag to level a cossack to 12, it still wouldn't last more the 1 min into a match. Thus, this new MM has essentially made any light/med bot useless unless it's a Stalker, Gary, Gal, Fujin, or Carny. The only Pats you see are 4xAphid and maybe a maxed Boa from time to time. If that is how clubbing is going to be eliminated, it's a totally shyte implementation. If Pix wants to put this hard line in, then they should simply do an official release statement to clarify the rules to the playing base. "Want to play light/med bots and lvl 30? You must be min 4/4" or whatever. From there let MM take over. Thats fine nerf me away all you want pix not going to change my gepards because i like the lvls they are at and im staying with them. If my gameplay sucks because of it idc. If you my teammate and dont like it. Complain to pix im pretty well done with mm talk . New league system by the looks of it is going to prove how this mm and not the old one is going be exploited. Again its pixs fault. When you have everyone up in arms about new mm cept for a minority and you still dont listen pix. Well guess imma just wait for new game to come out that copies the old mm system. One thing ive found some people dont learn till it cost them money. I am not saying any of this, nor do I work for Pixonic. I am a fellow pilot that feels like I'm getting ?firetruck?ed over just as much as anybody else. I am not an apologist for Pixonic, they are a business and I am treating them with the same disdain I give all profiteering companies. I am, however, a reformed flaming troll, thus I am trying to refrain from spewing the torrents of ?poo-poo? that used to typically come out of my mouth. Yes, I agree, light bots are pretty useless if you want top damage rankings. Similar to medium bots but in the right hands (skill) mediums can still be relevant. In fact, both of my accounts now have 3 mediums and only 2 heavy bots in each of my active hangars. My only counterpoint is something that's already been pointed out, that certain light bots (with their special abilities) do still have relevance in specialized beacon capturing strats. Takes skill and effort, most won't even bother. 1-8 Gepard/Magnum x 5 6-8 Rhino/Orkan-Pinata, Level 8 Gepard and Level 6 Rhino (I think) will prevent the penalty I'm speaking of. Your "Hangar Strength" rating is now determined by the highest level of equipment in your active hangar, and there is no averaging, so that Level 8 Gepard was setting your baseline if it had the highest level of all active equipment. Please understand, I am not speaking to any 'fairness' in this, just describing the functionality.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 16:31:42 GMT -5
A safegaurd exists for high-teir players that keeps them from seal clubbing; lvl4 and below gear I think. It basically launches you back up the ladder. That's not my experience. If such a thing exists, it is easily bypassed. It's not even necessary anyway - changing to low level gear doesn't reset your rating, so you end up seeing the same kinds of matches you had in your main hangar. If you take the time to drive down your rating, you can run any gear you like... and if you are modest with your killing, you can remain at that level. If you go full Gep clubber mode, though, it will push your rating back up fairly quickly.
|
|