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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 3:32:58 GMT -5
This info was posted to the main MM thread stickied to this forum: If this is even close to the truth, I have a bit to say. 1)Player activity makes the difference. If league points are distributed after every match, it is somewhat obvious to assume more active players will see more volatility than less active players. This shows us why things were so wonky at MM launch, and why,though slightly better, things have yet to truly settle. Those that play 10+ games a day are going to see a jump in competition, and while those competitors are, more often than not, gaining points, the volume of games played makes al of the difference. 2) Static numbers point to a 0 seed: On launch, everyone with everything was lobbed into the same pool. This points to an initial start point of zero. The "sorting from the top down" is occuring from stronger, better equipped players, gaining substanially more points than any other player in the same match. While everyone outside of the bottom 4 in any particular room is ADVANCING, the top performers are moving up faster than their peers. Factor in player activity vs performance, with everyone starting at 0, and you have what we are dealing with now: high activity players running into brick walls via running into better equipped low activity players, and/or low end spectrum players with better gear. 3) Current state of MM: The new system seems very capable of doing it's job as things progress, and I understand that things are still rocky for everyone, but: The system is designed to rate on performance, while it is still in it's infancy, it isn't just performance, but gear, performance, AND activity. Lets face it, we're seeing the product of upgrade costs/times being nerfed as well. Some of the TT pilots had it fairly easy in terms of wait time and cost, and many 10/10+ players are just starting to get to the 12/12 range after being in the same 9/9-10/10 level range they were at pre-nerf. With the astronomical time it takes to get a hangar from 9/9 to 12/12, don't expect many players in a match that aren't 10/10 or 12/12 once you start performing well with 8/8+. It is my honest belief, that things have yet to settle, as it isn't just YOUR personal rating that needs to be established, it's also everyone elses. With a non-zero sum point system, where 3/4ths of the players in any given match are being PROMOTED, it will take some time for those +13 to -20 ranking points to accrue enough to get to the point where everyone is placed with players of their own performance. For every match with the top winner scoring 4-10x as much as the bottom loser, thats two people being pushed from their current placement a lot faster than anyone else. 4)STOP TANKING: You'd think it'd be obvious, but geez, for every team you handicap, thats another 2-3 people that you are gimping out of a proper placement. The thing I see that actually aggravates me (which doesn't happen often) is that some of these tankers have the gall to say that they tank because they're better than the other players... to quote Talahasse "Nut up or shut up!". 5)Visions for the future: The only reason I can think of pix releasing the MM before the league system, is for them to gauge where the bars should be set, this is being made infinitely harder by those that are purposely losing from being salty, expect penalties for tankers before league rewards. Once the majority of the playerbase reaches their current pinnacle of play, I see less chaotic placement, but more chaotic games as players with similar performances get closer and closer together. In a month, I see games won and lost by literal seconds and salvos, and I've seen that potential since the MM went live.Those will be the games where everyone truly has a 1/12 chance at being the MVP. Being salty now just postpones that from happening. As many have noticed,I did start from scratch to get a perspective on this MM (and for other circumstances my original wikiclan mates are aware of), so the seasoning is far from salt mainly because I've been with War Robots for almost a year. If my level 20 account with only 3 (cossak,vit, golem) bots at 4/5 (as far has time has allowed) is seeing 6/6-8/8 heavy bots, matches are still being won, and Au gains are about the same as old MM, what the hell are YOU doing wrong in your gameplay and hangar that is making you so miserable? See you in the fray!
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Post by BooBooKitty on Feb 7, 2017 5:23:55 GMT -5
It is a zero point sum, 8 players gain a total of +49 and 4 players lose -49.
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Post by sonofsam on Feb 7, 2017 5:55:38 GMT -5
what the hell are YOU doing wrong in your gameplay and hangar that is making you so miserable? I'm actually playing the game. I am pretty good but the MM isn't, at least not yet, so they put me with like bots and I wind up in the top 2 about 90% of the time. It moves me up a little and I'm cool with that. I'm still top 3 about 80% of the time. Another bump I can handle that. This continues until I am 3rd or 4th most of the time occasionally first occasionally last. Congratulations MM this is where I SHOULD BE PLAYING. If I'm in the middle most of the time win or lose and capable of getting first or being bottom rung then I am obviously playing at my skill level. However the MM doesn't see it that way. It says because I was 4th on the losing team that is a -. Oh you got 3rd on the losing team - again. Here you obviously suck let me give you some seals to club. Wait you really clubbed those seals here you should be playing TT. Wow you suck let me put you back to get where you should be and we will start this whole thing oner again. In the space of today I went from playing level competition for several hours and actually enjoying myself to playing people I didn't really have to try hard to get the top spot (thank you to all of the tankers) to getting moved from seal clubbing straight to 10/10+ hangers. Not because I did anything wrong other than be in the middle of the scorecard on the team that wound up losing because people want to tank. I know I now have an hour or two of being 「female dog」 slapped coming. I was mad and did tank for a day or two right after the MM dropped but I haven't tanked a game in a week. So I will go and I will get 「female dog」 slapped until the MM drops me down to the point I am seal clubbing then I'll work my way back to where I should be playing just so tankers can 「fluffernutter」 me again. That is what I am doing "wrong" in my game play.
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Brimstone
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Post by Brimstone on Feb 7, 2017 10:57:29 GMT -5
I've read the MM threads, etc but I have to agree with Son. The new MM is seriously flawed. I've experienced the rubber banding too and it's not getting better. I never tanked, have played 100+ games since the new MM, and am constantly getting thrown into random squads against 12/12 hangar clans matches. My hangar is 9/10 (RDB & PDB griffs, 2 gals - plasma & orkan/pin, carnage/stalker/leo) and I don't run lances or rhinos as I like the more mobile bots. And yes, I realize that puts at a disadvantage sometimes but I do alright. I even understand the initial chaos in the beginning as everyone had to be zeroed out to get a clean ranking.
But all things being equal, my hangar shouldn't be constantly playing against 12/12. Simple as that. In the old MM, I ran at 65-70% win rate without clubbing. Now it fluctuates from 45-55% due to the rubber band affect. The problem with this Elo system is it doesn't seem to take into account the hangar anymore. I could put in my "old" high silver hangar (4/8 meds) and still get high or TT gold matches. Heck, i tried my 3/6 cossack "bronze" hanger the other day and was thrown against gold. That shouldn't be. It should be an Elo system WITHIN tiers.
I disagree with the posts about how skill should be normalized. It shouldn't. Piloting isn't that hard - use cover, try to flank, keep moving. The people that do that well shouldn't be punished. My reward for winning against like-for-like bots is getting crushed for the next 10 matches. That's plain stupid. The other thing is that this new MM is FORCING me to only run my gold hangar to be competitive. Every bot/weapon that's less than lvl. 9 is now just scrap. All the variety is gone, completely gone. It was fun just bouncing around with my cossack hangar, capping and trying to run-n-gun against med bots and geps. Guess what - can't anymore cus I'll get obliterated within 30 secs now by some rhino or fury. Where's the fun in that?
Maybe the "leagues" will fix this problem but Pix shouldn't have released a half-baked MM that fixed the clubbing issue by making any non 12/12 hangar an endless victim.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 11:12:05 GMT -5
Same experience. Do well for a few matches, then get hammered for 10 matches. The worst one today was Shenzhen, 2 Lancelots (one Thunder, one Ancile), 2 Stalkers, a Galahad and a Rhino incoming. My team, Griffins or worse. It didn't go well.
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WorstAimEver
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Post by WorstAimEver on Feb 7, 2017 11:37:20 GMT -5
The new MM is fine, but it could benefit by tightening up the permissible bot/weapon delta between top player and bottom player on any given team. MM does well to match team vs team, but it leaves a lot to be desired when you have 4/6 light hangars on the same team with 12/12 heavies. It really makes no sense to let scrappy young jr high school players on the field with pro NFL players, no?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 12:25:21 GMT -5
So,pix has 15 leagues in mind. If their intent is to have each league be within 1-200 points of each other (15 games min to advance, 10 to demote) that means, within the few short weeks of the MM release, a few TT guys have hit the 1500+ mark, qnd everyone else is still in the 0-1300 range.
If the cieling of the league distribution system is 2500+ there's the possibility that many players are still 50 or so games away from where their hangar will settle. With tankers that number is closer to 1-200 games. Remember that higher tier players are still getting a huge net gain in comparison to the 8/8 players that run into them.
If player A plays 10 games, and wins 1st and 2nd for all of them, they gain around 100 points.
If player B plays 20+ games, and places 2nd-3rd in most of them, they're still at that 100 point gain.
The biggest flaw of the MM was having everyone start at 0 in a game where there are players that literally have years worth of experience and grinded gear. It's a system that, if inbuilt into a newly released game, where every player is more or less starting at nothing, 90% of our current issues with it wouldn't exist.
Riddle me this, how many of the see-saw matches have you running into the same players as the previous one?
If the highest point on the latter anyone has reached is the middle, the smaller guy tends to get strong-armed back down, even if he belongs there and the behemoth in his way does not.
Think of the waves of win/loss with 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 competition as those big beasties slingshotting past your rating to where they should be.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 12:26:18 GMT -5
It is a zero point sum, 8 players gain a total of +49 and 4 players lose -49. I should have been more explicit, there is no zero sum between the winning team and the losing team.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 12:36:49 GMT -5
Riddle me this, how many of the see-saw matches have you running into the same players as the previous one? Almost none. However, some matches I can get to the giddy heights of 400K damage, then others, 200k ish. As it is currently, with the dailies, if I get kill 4 bots with a medium - scrap it, win 8 matches - scrap it. And so on for the, now, ludicrous ones.
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Post by Trogon on Feb 7, 2017 12:37:37 GMT -5
what the hell are YOU doing wrong in your gameplay and hangar that is making you so miserable? I'm actually playing the game. I am pretty good but the MM isn't, at least not yet, so they put me with like bots and I wind up in the top 2 about 90% of the time. It moves me up a little and I'm cool with that. I'm still top 3 about 80% of the time. Another bump I can handle that. This continues until I am 3rd or 4th most of the time occasionally first occasionally last. Congratulations MM this is where I SHOULD BE PLAYING. If I'm in the middle most of the time win or lose and capable of getting first or being bottom rung then I am obviously playing at my skill level. However the MM doesn't see it that way. It says because I was 4th on the losing team that is a -. Oh you got 3rd on the losing team - again. Here you obviously suck let me give you some seals to club. Wait you really clubbed those seals here you should be playing TT. Wow you suck let me put you back to get where you should be and we will start this whole thing oner again. In the space of today I went from playing level competition for several hours and actually enjoying myself to playing people I didn't really have to try hard to get the top spot (thank you to all of the tankers) to getting moved from seal clubbing straight to 10/10+ hangers. Not because I did anything wrong other than be in the middle of the scorecard on the team that wound up losing because people want to tank. I know I now have an hour or two of being ?female dog? slapped coming. I was mad and did tank for a day or two right after the MM dropped but I haven't tanked a game in a week. So I will go and I will get ?female dog? slapped until the MM drops me down to the point I am seal clubbing then I'll work my way back to where I should be playing just so tankers can ?firetruck? me again. That is what I am doing "wrong" in my game play. I agree. If this is accurate, or even close to what MM is doing, it will result (necessarily and inevitably) in a constant up/down cycle of your placement. It will continue to advance you until you start losing. Even if you're last on the winning team and score 15% as much as the #1 who has bots 4 levels above you, it will still say "Oh, you won, you get to advance!". Or you lose where the enemy team seriously outclasses your whole team, but get top score so you advance anyway, because you were the #1 loser. (and yes, I've had both those game experiences under the new MM) I would think a better system that would lead to more stability would be no advance or decline for the bottom 3 on the winning team and top 3 on the losing team.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 12:41:00 GMT -5
Riddle me this, how many of the see-saw matches have you running into the same players as the previous one? Almost none. However, some matches I can get to the giddy heights of 400K damage, then others, 200k ish. As it is currently, with the dailies, if I get kill 4 bots with a medium - scrap it, win 8 matches - scrap it. And so on for the, now, ludicrous ones. Thats the whole thing, there are likely tens of thousands of actives in War Robots, the part where players facing 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 hangars of many DIFFERENT people is just the product of the unfortunate circumstance of the new MM being released so late into the game's life. While those players are climbing, players that are running into them are staying relatively close to where they are, then climbing again once the active bracket of high level players either surpasses them or logs out for the day.
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Post by Trogon on Feb 7, 2017 12:47:36 GMT -5
This system, if accurate, would potentially explain why some people seem to be having a much worse experience than others with the new MM. Those of us near a bracket boundary would be noticing a lot more of the up/down cycling than those comfortably in the middle of a bracket, unless the brackets have nothing to do with matching and are just for some kind of future rewards calculations.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 12:55:32 GMT -5
This system, if accurate, would potentially explain why some people seem to be having a much worse experience than others with the new MM. Those of us near a bracket boundary would be noticing a lot more of the up/down cycling than those comfortably in the middle of a bracket, unless the brackets have nothing to do with matching and are just for some kind of future rewards calculations. The point system is for both purposes. The leagues will more or less be number brackets of player scores set by pix. Since everyone started at zero, the players are still creating the higher score ranges of brackets as they play, those of us whose quantity of games keeps our scores on par with those that are moving up through sheer force are experiencing the most see-sawing, as there hasn't been enough time/games for the point ratings of those heavy hitters to pass far enough to be a non issue, instead, becoming their feeders whenever we get close enough to their current score.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 13:03:48 GMT -5
I think, from what you've said, and if that's the case, then something needs to be done about tanking. Less than X damage, score stays the same. Leaving, while you still have bots, stays the same. etc.
There wouldn't need to be any concession made for dc as your score wouldn't change (minimum damage).
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phoenix232
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Post by phoenix232 on Feb 7, 2017 13:13:41 GMT -5
Sorry pal, but as much as I'd love to stop tanking, it's either tank my rating now and again so I can get fair matches, or stop playing entirely. I managed to drop my rating (finally) a couple weeks ago to the point where I was only outgunned by a couple weapon levels. Unfortunately, after doing well at that tier, I'm back to the cancer TT Fury & Carnage Trident Spam meta, and I absolutely refuse to play against that. I barely played the last week and a half because it was getting so bad I just was disgusted with the state of the game. Figured I'd try some matches today, see if things settled? Nope. I just got out of a match where the enemy side dropped a TT Fury, 3 Trident Carnages, and a Natasha Trident. At that point, my hands are tied, as they were a premade and utterly slaughtered my team. After my attempt to do *something* I just hit the 'X' on re-spawn and waited for it to end. Going to wait another week while my long range weapons level up (because you know, I never leveled them because the general consensus was Long Range is Trash), maybe then I'll have another go. Matchmaking may work 'In Theory', but it's just that. Theory. Right now, it's broken As F***, and there's very little you or anyone else can say to people like me stuck in 8/8-9/9 Hell to make it any better. At least with the old system, I could control to some extent the opponents I faced. Now, MM doesen't care. Win Spree? Enjoy the TT BS while we 'Adjust' you back to your 'proper skill rating'. Ugh.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 13:17:34 GMT -5
I think, from what you've said, and if that's the case, then something needs to be done about tanking. Less than X damage, score stays the same. Leaving, while you still have bots, stays the same. etc. There wouldn't need to be any concession made for dc as your score wouldn't change (minimum damage). Hence why I put "expect penalties from tanking before league rewards". The most likely solution would be a zero change for players that leave the match early, D/C or Afk after reaching minimum participation to be registered. Only Pix's actions will tell though. I know this has been a rocky transition for everyone, but not playing/tanking is part of the problem. If anyone here just stops playing for a couple of days, it's almost guaranteed that their competition will be completely different from the last game they played.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 13:19:59 GMT -5
Sorry pal, but as much as I'd love to stop tanking, it's either tank my rating now and again so I can get fair matches, or stop playing entirely. I managed to drop my rating (finally) a couple weeks ago to the point where I was only outgunned by a couple weapon levels. Unfortunately, after doing well at that tier, I'm back to the cancer TT Fury & Carnage Trident Spam meta, and I absolutely refuse to play against that. I barely played the last week and a half because it was getting so bad I just was disgusted with the state of the game. Figured I'd try some matches today, see if things settled? Nope. I just got out of a match where the enemy side dropped a TT Fury, 3 Trident Carnages, and a Natasha Trident. At that point, my hands are tied, as they were a premade and utterly slaughtered my team. After my attempt to do *something* I just hit the 'X' on re-spawn and waited for it to end. Going to wait another week while my long range weapons level up (because you know, I never leveled them because the general consensus was Long Range is Trash), maybe then I'll have another go. Matchmaking may work 'In Theory', but it's just that. Theory. Right now, it's broken As F***, and there's very little you or anyone else can say to people like me stuck in 8/8-9/9 Hell to make it any better. At least with the old system, I could control to some extent the opponents I faced. Now, MM doesen't care. Win Spree? Enjoy the TT BS while we 'Adjust' you back to your 'proper skill rating'. Ugh. You're doing more harm than good to yourself and the other people in the match. The more people lose to those TT guys, the faster their ratings rise away from your MM pool. The more natural your losses, the more likely it will be for other players at 'fair' ratings to catch up to you, as your score will stay relatively unchanged as score ranges widen. When you tank down to "fair" matches, you're slowing the proper placement of everyone you're tanking your way to roflstomping.
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phoenix232
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Post by phoenix232 on Feb 7, 2017 13:29:12 GMT -5
You're doing more harm than good to yourself and the other people in the match. The more people lose to those TT guys, the faster their ratings rise away from your MM pool. The more natural your losses, the more likely it will be for other players at 'fair' ratings to catch up to you, as your score will stay relatively unchanged as score ranges widen. My losses are usually top 1 or 2. That means a score increase for me, keeping me in the tier against the TT guys. Because they go on to other matches, get slaughtered by even bigger fish, and drop back down a few points to where I was. Sorry, but we're what.. 3 weeks in? I should not be facing the opponents I'm facing. Either my rating is too high, or they need large boosts to theirs. The issue is the swings in points - if we can reference the image above as accurate - are not wide enough. Loss but do well? The system doesn't ask or factor in *why* you lost. Did I lose because I was drastically outstripped, but was the #1 loser? I still gain points, screwing me over. If I'm going to lose, I *need* to lose by a wide margin in order to get away from superior hangars. Look at your chart. The #1 loser gets an equivalent rank bump as the #3 winner. The Winning side needs far larger bumps to push players further ahead, or the losing team need much smaller increases so that they actually push down, instead of stay where they are. I've been dropped against 12/12 and 10/10 within the same match.. I'm 8/8. if I do well, say #1, I'll increase alongside the 10/10. EVENTUALLY, the system might work people down. But when is eventually? I frankly don't have the patience to contribute to a broken system so it EVENTUALLY figures out how to match people. It should have came with built in reliefs to ensure certain hangar setups *NEVER MEET*. +/- 2/2 would have been just fine - a good level 8 could take on a bad level 10 and contribute and possibly win. But it doesn't, and that's the real issue here. Personally, I'm not tanking as much as I am just getting fed up with the matches and barely trying, or in some cases outright leaving from frustration. This is a mobile game, and as a rule of thumb, it's not worth the frustration or anger that being face stomped by a 「dookie」ty match causes. It supposed to be fun, and under the old MM, it was. This? This is a cluster 「fluffernutter」. Instead of assigning 0 to all players and 'letting it all sort out', there should have been something in place to assign minimum values to hangars. I'm no genius, i can't give an answer as to what. But this? This is wrong, and it's broken, and I for one am not going to wait forever for it to sort itself out.
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Post by tsunisterbr on Feb 7, 2017 13:29:52 GMT -5
Sorry pal, but as much as I'd love to stop tanking, it's either tank my rating now and again so I can get fair matches, or stop playing entirely. I managed to drop my rating (finally) a couple weeks ago to the point where I was only outgunned by a couple weapon levels. Unfortunately, after doing well at that tier, I'm back to the cancer TT Fury & Carnage Trident Spam meta, and I absolutely refuse to play against that. I barely played the last week and a half because it was getting so bad I just was disgusted with the state of the game. Figured I'd try some matches today, see if things settled? Nope. I just got out of a match where the enemy side dropped a TT Fury, 3 Trident Carnages, and a Natasha Trident. At that point, my hands are tied, as they were a premade and utterly slaughtered my team. After my attempt to do *something* I just hit the 'X' on re-spawn and waited for it to end. Going to wait another week while my long range weapons level up (because you know, I never leveled them because the general consensus was Long Range is Trash), maybe then I'll have another go. Matchmaking may work 'In Theory', but it's just that. Theory. Right now, it's broken As F***, and there's very little you or anyone else can say to people like me stuck in 8/8-9/9 Hell to make it any better. At least with the old system, I could control to some extent the opponents I faced. Now, MM doesen't care. Win Spree? Enjoy the TT BS while we 'Adjust' you back to your 'proper skill rating'. Ugh. You're doing more harm than good to yourself and the other people in the match. The more people lose to those TT guys, the faster their ratings rise away from your MM pool. The more natural your losses, the more likely it will be for other players at 'fair' ratings to catch up to you, as your score will stay relatively unchanged as score ranges widen. When you tank down to "fair" matches, you're slowing the proper placement of everyone you're tanking your way to roflstomping. Sorry Tin, but I can't accept having the blame and responsability for the current mess in MM being throw at the players. That's just silly. Stop defending Pixo so fiercelly, please.
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Post by sonofsam on Feb 7, 2017 13:49:57 GMT -5
So,pix has 15 leagues in mind. If their intent is to have each league be within 1-200 points of each other (15 games min to advance, 10 to demote) that means, within the few short weeks of the MM release, a few TT guys have hit the 1500+ mark, qnd everyone else is still in the 0-1300 range. If the cieling of the league distribution system is 2500+ there's the possibility that many players are still 50 or so games away from where their hangar will settle. With tankers that number is closer to 1-200 games. Remember that higher tier players are still getting a huge net gain in comparison to the 8/8 players that run into them. If player A plays 10 games, and wins 1st and 2nd for all of them, they gain around 100 points. If player B plays 20+ games, and places 2nd-3rd in most of them, they're still at that 100 point gain. The biggest flaw of the MM was having everyone start at 0 in a game where there are players that literally have years worth of experience and grinded gear. It's a system that, if inbuilt into a newly released game, where every player is more or less starting at nothing, 90% of our current issues with it wouldn't exist. Riddle me this, how many of the see-saw matches have you running into the same players as the previous one? If the highest point on the latter anyone has reached is the middle, the smaller guy tends to get strong-armed back down, even if he belongs there and the behemoth in his way does not. Think of the waves of win/loss with 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 competition as those big beasties slingshotting past your rating to where they should be. Is this aggregate over lifetime or just over 50 matches? If they were to give you 50 matches (min) in a league then after that say "any time anybody goes over xxx score in 50 matches they move up and anybody who drops under XXX score over 50 matches drops down" it would be fair to those who play more often. If I play 150 matches a day and you play 100 a week I don't get penalized because it just takes our last 50 matches. Though this doesn't help people who want to occasionally run some 5/5 light bots for fun. Oh and it doesn't matter if you are on the winning team or the losing team last place should be a minus. Either that or rank everyone from both teams 1-12 then give out your +/-.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Feb 7, 2017 13:53:37 GMT -5
Well, all I can say, is that Tin is a smart dude, and what he's saying jives with others and with what I have seen...
That said, I am on Android and I know iOS has had a bit different behavior. Also, this isn't about Pix. This IS about tankers. It's not JUST THEIR HANGERS THAT TANKING AFFECTS. Period. It's like a ripple effect... each person that loses when they shouldn't or wins when they shouldn't just amplifies the problem.
The part he mentioned about the system being implemented well into the life of the game, is on point. The longer the "woe is me" tankers continue, the longer it will take to get stable.
Now, this isn't 「bum-bum」 kissing Pix either, I have had my say on what they did wrong. And i won't repeat here the same old same old. Either people do or don't believe, or care, what the proper process is. Pix DID screw up by not warning us what was coming. Even if they didn't know what it would do, they should have had enough knowledge to be proactive in keeping us happy. A GREAT way to compensate would have been to double Ag rewards for a month or two, to keep people honest. Maybe even a little gold for every place on the winning team and a little for the top losers. Either way, giving us a reason to keep playing while getting beat on waiting on all this to level out.
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funyun
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Post by funyun on Feb 7, 2017 15:21:28 GMT -5
Sorry pal, but as much as I'd love to stop tanking, it's either tank my rating now and again so I can get fair matches, or stop playing entirely. I managed to drop my rating (finally) a couple weeks ago to the point where I was only outgunned by a couple weapon levels. Unfortunately, after doing well at that tier, I'm back to the cancer TT Fury & Carnage Trident Spam meta, and I absolutely refuse to play against that. I barely played the last week and a half because it was getting so bad I just was disgusted with the state of the game. Figured I'd try some matches today, see if things settled? Nope. I just got out of a match where the enemy side dropped a TT Fury, 3 Trident Carnages, and a Natasha Trident. At that point, my hands are tied, as they were a premade and utterly slaughtered my team. After my attempt to do *something* I just hit the 'X' on re-spawn and waited for it to end. Going to wait another week while my long range weapons level up (because you know, I never leveled them because the general consensus was Long Range is Trash), maybe then I'll have another go. Matchmaking may work 'In Theory', but it's just that. Theory. Right now, it's broken As F***, and there's very little you or anyone else can say to people like me stuck in 8/8-9/9 Hell to make it any better. At least with the old system, I could control to some extent the opponents I faced. Now, MM doesen't care. Win Spree? Enjoy the TT BS while we 'Adjust' you back to your 'proper skill rating'. Ugh. You're doing more harm than good to yourself and the other people in the match. The more people lose to those TT guys, the faster their ratings rise away from your MM pool. The more natural your losses, the more likely it will be for other players at 'fair' ratings to catch up to you, as your score will stay relatively unchanged as score ranges widen. When you tank down to "fair" matches, you're slowing the proper placement of everyone you're tanking your way to roflstomping. How low this game has gotten, losing is now required to simply get the game to work in a sensible fashion. Though that really isant the case, because if you start to win again it goes to hell.
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 7, 2017 15:35:15 GMT -5
Riddle me this, how many of the see-saw matches have you running into the same players as the previous one? Almost none. However, some matches I can get to the giddy heights of 400K damage, then others, 200k ish. As it is currently, with the dailies, if I get kill 4 bots with a medium - scrap it, win 8 matches - scrap it. And so on for the, now, ludicrous ones. I got cap 40 beacons for the first time yesterday. LMAO.
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Post by sonofsam on Feb 7, 2017 16:23:00 GMT -5
Though they already have something that is detecting tankers. If you will look the guy who does zero damage and zero beacons doesn't get any coins for the event. The last few days I have seen that expand because I have seen people who do around 100k damage also get nothing in matches where everyone else did 300k+. If there is a system in place to detect tankers and everyone in the match is assumed equal why not rank all players on both sides 1-12. Anybody in the top 4 get a ++ the higher the ranking the higher the ++. Anybody 5-8 gets a zero because they seem to be right in the middle of assumed equal competition. 9-12 gets a -- again increasing the worse you do. Anybody that the computer detects as tanking gets an automatic +2. Make tanking backfire so that it gives you harder and harder competition and people will stop doing it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 22:55:24 GMT -5
So,pix has 15 leagues in mind. If their intent is to have each league be within 1-200 points of each other (15 games min to advance, 10 to demote) that means, within the few short weeks of the MM release, a few TT guys have hit the 1500+ mark, qnd everyone else is still in the 0-1300 range. If the cieling of the league distribution system is 2500+ there's the possibility that many players are still 50 or so games away from where their hangar will settle. With tankers that number is closer to 1-200 games. Remember that higher tier players are still getting a huge net gain in comparison to the 8/8 players that run into them. If player A plays 10 games, and wins 1st and 2nd for all of them, they gain around 100 points. If player B plays 20+ games, and places 2nd-3rd in most of them, they're still at that 100 point gain. The biggest flaw of the MM was having everyone start at 0 in a game where there are players that literally have years worth of experience and grinded gear. It's a system that, if inbuilt into a newly released game, where every player is more or less starting at nothing, 90% of our current issues with it wouldn't exist. Riddle me this, how many of the see-saw matches have you running into the same players as the previous one? If the highest point on the latter anyone has reached is the middle, the smaller guy tends to get strong-armed back down, even if he belongs there and the behemoth in his way does not. Think of the waves of win/loss with 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 competition as those big beasties slingshotting past your rating to where they should be. Is this aggregate over lifetime or just over 50 matches? If they were to give you 50 matches (min) in a league then after that say "any time anybody goes over xxx score in 50 matches they move up and anybody who drops under XXX score over 50 matches drops down" it would be fair to those who play more often. If I play 150 matches a day and you play 100 a week I don't get penalized because it just takes our last 50 matches. Though this doesn't help people who want to occasionally run some 5/5 light bots for fun. Oh and it doesn't matter if you are on the winning team or the losing team last place should be a minus. Either that or rank everyone from both teams 1-12 then give out your +/-. Lifetime, otherwise there would have to be a set interval in which pix wipes player score and starts the whole process anew. With so many players, a lifetime rank means that a 12, 12 that only plays 100 matches a week will have a much slower climb to the proper level of play, while your 150 matches a day are what's keeping your points at the -still growing- cieling. With tanking and other deliberate score manipulation comes a slowing of the cieling MM will inevitably reach. With "leagues", if it replaces "player of" missions, it is likely that rewards will be distributed at set intervals to each player dependant on their MM ranking. So, if you can weasel in points/wins to squeeze into the next league, the reward would be greater for that period. As I said before, there are thousands to tens of thousands of players whose MM score started at 0 like everyone elses, with the 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 loses to 「whiskey tango foxtrot」 hangars being a mere stepping stone as the score ladder is established. Most have seen major improvements as time progresses, and it's due to more and more people getting to their average MM rating. The players you're tanking to get to haven't reached your level to create "fair matches" because of their activity vs yours, and your activity is throwing you into TT because the TT players all haven't reached the highest ceiling the MM will eventually have. When those players you deem "fair play" reach your average score, and when the TT guys all get to the very top, the eventuality of it means that you'll be in games where competition is a close as numerically and skill-wise possible, while a win streak would draw in a few TT players, it wouldn't be all TT with 1-2 8/8 hangars, but the really good 8/8-10/10 pilots with low end 12/12 pilots as the outlier. When proper skill/hangars are grouped together, the points from win/lose placement wise would move players slightly in their league until they hit the gradient of the next big rank.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2017 23:03:31 GMT -5
You're doing more harm than good to yourself and the other people in the match. The more people lose to those TT guys, the faster their ratings rise away from your MM pool. The more natural your losses, the more likely it will be for other players at 'fair' ratings to catch up to you, as your score will stay relatively unchanged as score ranges widen. When you tank down to "fair" matches, you're slowing the proper placement of everyone you're tanking your way to roflstomping. Sorry Tin, but I can't accept having the blame and responsability for the current mess in MM being throw at the players. That's just silly. Stop defending Pixo so fiercelly, please. I've already expressed my discontent with Pix's decisions in other threads (and the OP). If you're tanking, you're making it worse. I can only explain what we have to deal with, and ask those that can see to do what is necessary to improve the situation with what we're given. At no point have I ever said we should cut Pix some slack(I neither attack nor support any player or entity in/on this game), only what we can do to understand what we have and what we can do to make the best of it. If you want to tank, go on ahead, just as I would have said go on and club/farm on the old MM. Every action has consequences, my only intent is to state what I see. My cracking of the old MM lead to massive increases in clubbing/farming,my statements about geps have always been from a balance standpoint, and my observations of the new MM are of the same spirits.
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Post by zman on Feb 7, 2017 23:05:40 GMT -5
Yep, I'm going to agree with essentially all of the OP.
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Post by spawnreaper on Feb 7, 2017 23:18:05 GMT -5
So today i dced, and i roflcopter as i thought, my teamates must think im tanking
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Post by ShutUpAndSmokeMyWeed on Feb 7, 2017 23:31:20 GMT -5
This is a zero-sum rating system, however since you can't go lower than 0, points will enter the system from the bottom which will lead to steady rating inflation over time. For skilled players with maxed hangars who almost always get top damage, this system is effectively trophies, except they don't reset after 10 days so you just accumulate league points indefinitely.
It's obviously broken but since this is just a transitional system I have hope that Pixonic eventually implements a proper Elo based on actual statistics and not some arbitrary distribution.
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Post by zman on Feb 7, 2017 23:55:40 GMT -5
This is a zero-sum rating system, however since you can't go lower than 0, points will enter the system from the bottom which will lead to steady rating inflation over time. For skilled players with maxed hangars who almost always get top damage, this system is effectively trophies, except they don't reset after 10 days so you just accumulate league points indefinitely. It's obviously broken but since this is just a transitional system I have hope that Pixonic eventually implements a proper Elo based on actual statistics and not some arbitrary distribution. They would have had to start people at a default right in the middle of their applicable range to maintain the range they are looking for. They'd also need to use a seperate 0 sum system for matches that take place at or near their cap and those at the bottom along with their protections for low level pilots. Accumulating points indefinitely is broken and Overdrive hope they know this, it would be an ever filtering upwards of the the points compressing the lower end of the system.
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