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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 14:14:06 GMT -5
When you've realized "the game" has been stacked against you, and there is no way to "win" by conventional means, change what it means to be a winner in your own eyes. When I first read this I was thinking, "Pfffttt, whatever." Then I was reading some other posts and I saw one where the person was talking about their success with the new MM. They posted their hangar and when I looked at the win rate I thought, "Success? What success?" So, I sat here just looking at that thinking about what I considered success. Then I thought about this post. I decided that I need to let go of my grumpies a bit. Sure, I'm not happy about the new MM, but when I start going through posts and compare not my experience with facing hangars 4+ levels over mine, but my actual outcomes and then putting my experience into that context there's a different story. By all accounts I'm doing just fine. I've made almost 1000 Au, since the new MM kicked in, am running all the bots I wanted to switch to (dropped my Geps and Boas), I haven't seen a win rate below 62% in a week and am experimenting with secondary hangar configurations. I really shouldn't complain. Other's are struggling more. I don't know that I've changed what it means to be a winner in my eyes, but I think I'll be in a better place now.
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Post by boomsplat on Feb 2, 2017 14:27:12 GMT -5
When you've realized "the game" has been stacked against you, and there is no way to "win" by conventional means, change what it means to be a winner in your own eyes. When I first read this I was thinking, "Pfffttt, whatever." Then I was reading some other posts and I saw one where the person was talking about their success with the new MM. They posted their hangar and when I looked at the win rate I thought, "Success? What success?" So, I sat here just looking at that thinking about what I considered success. Then I thought about this post. I decided that I need to let go of my grumpies a bit. Sure, I'm not happy about the new MM, but when I start going through posts and compare not my experience with facing hangars 4+ levels over mine, but my actual outcomes and then putting my experience into that context there's a different story. By all accounts I'm doing just fine. I've made almost 1000 Au, since the new MM kicked in, am running all the bots I wanted to switch to (dropped my Geps and Boas), I haven't seen a win rate below 62% in a week and am experimenting with secondary hangar configurations. I really shouldn't complain. Other's are struggling more. I don't know that I've changed what it means to be a winner in my eyes, but I think I'll be in a better place now. Hey DAs Veen - great post above! redefining winning was an important part of me getting used to the new MM. I used to win continuously where it was an expected outcome - that is why I started playing my lo gold hanger in October because everyone told me I had no skills because I drove a hanger of geps. Well, I won a lot of those matches, too.....but in that first week of the new MM I experienced a continuous beat down. I had to rethink from Fair to Balanced (to me...my thinking and not the dictionary's definition). Fair means numbers/levels line up....balanced means power and track record line up so more bots and skills. I just went down to 46% today on a 7 game losing streak and I'm pissed...but happy for the 4 game winning streak I'm on now. So the game went from one level (monotony of winning) to another (highs and lows)....more like real life. The issue is that I have a real life....unsure I want my online gaming to be like my real life. Cheers - and glad to hear you found a way to look at the game that works for you.
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Post by FRΞΞDØM☆F1GHTΞR on Feb 2, 2017 15:27:28 GMT -5
Here's a decent example where, statistically, I should have been destroyed. I was hands-down the underdog in this battle, and yet I took 2nd place on the winning team. Does anybody still think there's no way a 6/8 hangar can compete against 12/12 hangars?
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 2, 2017 18:23:26 GMT -5
I don't know that I've changed what it means to be a winner in my eyes, but I think I'll be in a better place now. I had to rethink from Fair to Balanced (to me...my thinking and not the dictionary's definition). Fair means numbers/levels line up....balanced means power and track record line up so more bots and skills. I just went down to 46% today on a 7 game losing streak and I'm pissed...but happy for the 4 game winning streak I'm on now. Mission complete. Does anybody still think there's no way a 6/8 hangar can compete against 12/12 hangars? "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Mark Twain This kid looks like me, back when I was being bullied in school. Look at the determination in his eyes. Bullies don't like it when you fight back. They really don't like it when they keep knocking you down and you get right back up and go for another shot at their testicles. Ok, that should be enough motivational crapola to get me through today's poundings...
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hulkz1
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Post by hulkz1 on Feb 2, 2017 19:41:12 GMT -5
Match the equipment. If you are learning your equipment...you will get better. If you have mastered your equipment you will be a teacher. Want more challenge? UPGRADE. The choice should be entirely the players own. Starting from scratch should always be an option as there are plenty of things to try in this great game. 30 day grace period for new players in the playpen. Its not rocket science.
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 2, 2017 20:08:14 GMT -5
I hate elitists. There's not a lot of things in this world that I'm willing to declare hatred of, but that's one of them. www.polygon.com/2016/3/21/11279160/how-game-companies-make-the-right-match-for-online-playersYou are correct, it's not rocket science. PvP matchmaking is actually much more difficult to get right than calculating rocket trajectories. At least rocket science has quantifiable variables that can all be properly defined, but how do you reliably quantify a measurement of skill in a MMO game? And if you don't compensate for skill, then the matchmaking becomes all about who has marginally better equipment via min/maxing exploits. I'm getting real tired of overly simplified solutions that all sound like "it's easy to fix with this one single vector as a basis for comparison." After a 30 day grace period, your protected newbie will suddenly face real opponents with real skills, get roflstomped, and quit playing the game. This kind of P2W thinking has destroyed thousands of mobile game companies, and in turn created some of the worst P2W games imaginable, like Game of War: Age of Fire and World of Tanks.
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Post by stygianumbra on Feb 2, 2017 20:54:46 GMT -5
What I learned from the new MM.. Pixonic pays programmers to fail at math. For "some reason" it's really easy to get my 12/12 hanger consistently matched with 8/9 and below hangers even with a 65+% win rate and 500k avg damage. Most likely because any worthwhile elo system is a little more complex than avg dmg + win rate.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 21:03:37 GMT -5
I had to scrap a whole account due to my nature of trying to dissect anything that isn't explicitly expressed(see all the old MMand hangar threads with my name on them). I, personally, am still enjoying the new MM more than all of the salt in this forum can dry out.
Tactics, tactics, tactics. I was getting bored with the old MM, the grind to the top was eventual, but far from engaging. I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I'll be damned if I choose to 'waste' time on something completely mindless.
I keep trying to help people here by answering any question I can, yet the answers aren't what people want to hear.
Great synopsis Muhlakai. Hopefully the less experienced heed some of it.
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hulkz1
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Post by hulkz1 on Feb 2, 2017 22:27:41 GMT -5
I hate elitists. There's not a lot of things in this world that I'm willing to declare hatred of, but that's one of them. www.polygon.com/2016/3/21/11279160/how-game-companies-make-the-right-match-for-online-playersYou are correct, it's not rocket science. PvP matchmaking is actually much more difficult to get right than calculating rocket trajectories. At least rocket science has quantifiable variables that can all be properly defined, but how do you reliably quantify a measurement of skill in a MMO game? And if you don't compensate for skill, then the matchmaking becomes all about who has marginally better equipment via min/maxing exploits. I'm getting real tired of overly simplified solutions that all sound like "it's easy to fix with this one single vector as a basis for comparison." After a 30 day grace period, your protected newbie will suddenly face real opponents with real skills, get roflstomped, and quit playing the game. This kind of P2W thinking has destroyed thousands of mobile game companies, and in turn created some of the worst P2W games imaginable, like Game of War: Age of Fire and World of Tanks. you dont measure a players skill. it is irrelevant for MM purposes. it is the great unknown. Just like chess....you discover it on the battlefield. you learn to use your equipment, study the enemy and adapt to his/her usage of equipment. All of the great games provide a level playing field. NASCAR...Formula 1....nobody says "hey! that football team has faster players! make them take the uphill side of the field!" As far as your elitist comments. I decline to respond.
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Post by Conflict's Student on Feb 2, 2017 22:44:21 GMT -5
All of the great games provide a level playing field. NASCAR...Formula 1.... You lost me there. Maybe I've spent too many years watching how auto racing is won (i.e. lobbying for rules that favor your own engineering designs over those of your competitors). There is nothing level about saying "everybody is allowed to use the following setups, although only some people have access to those setups." Why do you think certain teams dominate entire seasons, but then there is an offseason rules change and all of a sudden a different team completely dominates the entire next season? That's like making it possible to field armies of level 1 gepards (so, max speed and nearly max health) carrying level 12 aphids against people who have had neither the Au nor the upgrade time to field comparable firepower or speed - not a level playing field at all. Ignoring for the moment your underlying point, those were poor choices for examples of fair play. Your underlying point would be better addressed by leagues, because otherwise there would be no interest by amateurs to participate in any sport at the vast majority of levels if they had reason to expect regular beatdowns by professionals. The amateurs would just find a different sport where they had a chance to, you know, compete. Until leagues make it into a future update (as has been advertised), a MM that at least attempts to produce contests with uncertain outcomes is more interesting than one that promotes clubbing. Ergo, it is an improvement over what was in place previously.
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hulkz1
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Post by hulkz1 on Feb 2, 2017 23:13:30 GMT -5
I get that. So I will just stick with chess as an example. Level playing field, learn the game.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 0:05:29 GMT -5
I get that. So I will just stick with chess as an example. Level playing field, learn the game. Chess doesn't cost 50-100 bucks to field the Queen when you first pick up the game.
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Post by Muhlakai on Feb 3, 2017 0:50:32 GMT -5
you dont measure a players skill. it is irrelevant for MM purposes. it is the great unknown. Just like chess....you discover it on the battlefield. Not only does this statement run contrary to every bit of math and science behind matchmaking, it also runs contrary to the ranking systems of every example you cited.
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Post by Tyrannosaurus on Feb 3, 2017 0:53:18 GMT -5
Lol, just played a few matches and I get hammered by Fury Tridents whenever I try to retake centre back, a salvo from them takes literally half my Galahads health and nearly half of my Griffs. I don't consider that to be very fair, whenever I DO win, its against lvl 20s - 25s, so that spikes my win rate A LOT, and that cause the new MM to match me against lvl 30s with maxed weapons and bots, so that punches and hammers my win rate down, this then causes me to get matched up with 20s and 25s again and the process repeats, I rarely get matches evenly matched. Its either 6/6 hangars or 12/12 hangars, I used to have faith that the MM would settle but this is taking extraordinarily long to settle. So now I just squad with my maxed clanmates, I get matched with maxed players in solo so might as well go with my maxed clanmates to actually win some matches and have some fun. The old MM system was bad, but the only annoying problem it really had was clubbing, and that was solved easily by most people, just upgrade your hangar to get out of Silver and into Gold, the new MM however removes Gep clubbing but adds in maxed clubbing, everyone gets clubbed in a way, those lvl 20s and 25s get clubbed by me, I get clubbed by those maxed players, the only players that dont face this problem are those that are already maxed, but they also get faced by 6 man clan squads, in the end no one has fun, fighting noobs isnt fun, getting demolished isnt fun. Its one of those rare lottery matches that I get matched with hangars that are near my lvl and skill that are also near my lvl. In this thread the main solution to fighting maxed players is to use superior skill. Well first of all, to get to their maxed status, they wouldve needed to either spend money or outplay their opponents to earn their resources, the latter needs skill. Secondly, sometimes tactics are inadequate in the face of superior equipment. For some perspective (very strange perspective), if Earth was faced by an alien invasion, no matter how smart we played our cards, the aliens would likely just vaporise us with a push of a button. Playing cards as well, if your opponent has the superior deck with triple 2s, triple Aces and a 7 card chain and you have just random cards, no matter how you play, you are going to lose, not even a competition at that point, unless you mind controlled the opponent to play like an idiot, you WILL lose that card battle
A 7/10 hangar just cant keep up with the damage a 12/12 hangar can deal
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Post by blastronaut on Feb 3, 2017 1:18:21 GMT -5
My success has been for some of the reasons Muhlakai points out on situational awareness and taking smart risks. I gained a lot of those skills by fighting spiders, rhinos, lances, galas, griffs, unicorns, and purple dragons as a gep driver using mags, aphids, spirals, and crvs. Here is my hanger - it is okay. And the blue team Half of your weapons are lvl 12. GTFO
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Post by boomsplat on Feb 3, 2017 6:56:49 GMT -5
My success has been for some of the reasons Muhlakai points out on situational awareness and taking smart risks. I gained a lot of those skills by fighting spiders, rhinos, lances, galas, griffs, unicorns, and purple dragons as a gep driver using mags, aphids, spirals, and crvs. Here is my hanger - it is okay. And the blue team Half of your weapons are lvl 12. GTF The light ones....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 7:12:47 GMT -5
I somehow maintained a ~80% (78 atm) winrate. So thats the best thing about the new MM- I finally feel "pro". The worst thing is that I am starting to get scared to play @hulkz: you maybe want to google up stuff sometimes before posting. Pretty much everything you stated is blatantly wrong. (Protip: a term like matchmaking has sub-categories. Skill based mm is one of them...)
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Post by [AurN]Zenotaph on Feb 3, 2017 7:18:17 GMT -5
I somehow maintained a ~80% (78 atm) winrate. So thats the best thing about the new MM- I finally feel "pro". The worst thing is that I am starting to get scared to play @hulkz: you maybe want to google up stuff sometimes before posting. Pretty much everything you stated is blatantly wrong. Scaredy cat instead oft klatschkater?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 8:08:46 GMT -5
「meow」 cat :*(
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Post by [AurN]Zenotaph on Feb 3, 2017 8:59:13 GMT -5
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pj
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Post by pj on Feb 3, 2017 9:25:57 GMT -5
I don't know, I've withheld judgement on this new mm in order to give it a chance and have to be honest by stating it sucks. I went from 80% War Robots to 54% before going back up to 70% and now down to 32%. I don't think I'm a bad player so 「whiskey tango foxtrot」? It supposed to stabilize right? Well it hasn't. I've been consistently running a stable hangar of 8/8 bots & weapons and still get slaughtered and it's demoralizing. I've started to feel like what's the point of playing and putting in effort if I'm just going to get smacked by unbalanced mm. I've had 32 straight games losing streak.
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hulkz1
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Post by hulkz1 on Feb 3, 2017 9:26:20 GMT -5
So you are telling me chess is rigged? I dont think so. I mean the game. Not the politics. The concept and intent. Any two people can sit down to chess under equal conditions.
Basically in War Robots we start out with inept chess pieces and spend countless hours, possibly lots of money....all to get to the magic 12/12. At which point our chess pieces become fully functional, and balance is achieved. Those of us that like the 6/6 range,for leveling and variety must be convinced that pur equipment is sub par and pushed back on the leveling treadmill.
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Post by buzzard on Feb 3, 2017 9:31:28 GMT -5
So you are telling me chess is rigged? I dont think so. I mean the game. Not the politics. The concept and intent. Any two people can sit down to chess under equal conditions. This is a game of progression and choice of equipment. Comparing it to chess is pointless. The "Elo" thing keeps making that comparison come up. This is obviously not a true Elo system. People have taken to caling it a performance rating to reflect that.
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Post by K A Z on Feb 3, 2017 9:45:05 GMT -5
So you are telling me chess is rigged? I dont think so. I mean the game. Not the politics. The concept and intent. Any two people can sit down to chess under equal conditions. When you play chess - does your opponent have same number of figures and pawns? Seems lately I'm playing different set than my opponent (like 60% of his side), but on the same chessboard.
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hulkz1
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Post by hulkz1 on Feb 3, 2017 12:07:20 GMT -5
Thats exactly my point KAZ:)
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Post by SlowReflexes on Feb 3, 2017 12:14:20 GMT -5
So you are telling me chess is rigged? I dont think so. I mean the game. Not the politics. The concept and intent. Any two people can sit down to chess under equal conditions. When you play chess - does your opponent have same number of figures and pawns? Seems lately I'm playing different set than my opponent (like 60% of his side), but on the same chessboard. Yes, comparing it to chess is not just pointless but actively misleading due to the factor of variable playing pieces. I play a hangar that is almost perfectly 8/10, mix of heavies and the best mediums. Damage around 450k, my winning percentage oscillates with a center around 60% or so (the swings between 50 and 70 aren't so fun, but what can you do?). The opposition I face is generally 1-2 levels higher than I am, bot and weapon both though that varies. I play strictly solo these days, so no distortion enters that way. Seeing where my stats stabilize and what opposition I face, I'm one of those 'better' players. Hah. I'm old and slow (twitch games are behind me, 20-25 years ago I was one of the best netrek players in the world but that was a lifetime ago), I play on mediocre at best hardware and my *physical* skills are only as good as they are because I practice a lot. I make up for being slow and missing a lot with clueful play, (again hah) but there is a vast hole in my game in that regard because I've never played on/with a high level clan and have never had a chance to directly experience/learn *truly* clueful play. I just reverse engineer and fake it, by watching and analyzing YouTube vids. Why am I not filled with joy at the different kind of winning MM is telling me I'm doing? (With my elevated win rate and handicapped opponents.) I don't want to grind and be forced to face seriously hard core (or Hard Corps, seen those guys lately and they're pretty tough) opponents at all times. I know my limitations. I want to blow 「dookie」 up, with some cleverness involved. The new MM imposes a very austere almost ascetic model of pleasure and happiness on us. Very subtle. (60% win rate means you're excellent!) But it's not really about that. It's about the thrill and pleasure of 'good matches', you don't need material rewards when you have that spiritual satisfaction. But only the top clans ever get 'good matches' because the rest of us are, to greater or lesser extent, ignorant and inept. Anyone could club. Literally. And that made Pix money. With a little advice, little kids could be successful clubbers. It was one model of satisfaction and achievement, and it didn't conflict with the more abstract model of satisfaction that chasing Top and playing king of the hill there provided. Now everyone is being pushed to the chase Top and play king of the hill there model. I don't want it, despite being better at it than most.
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pj
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Post by pj on Feb 3, 2017 12:30:46 GMT -5
The point being is that you can be a good player, you've become proficient with advanced skills and tactics and/or even mastered these and your robot. It doesn't matter, unless you have a maxed out hangar with all bots and weapons at 12. Even if you do, you're still at the mercy of mm which handicaps your team with lower level bots. The unintended consequence being seen now are those players deliberately tanking mid-game when they realize they're not contributing anything to the match. What justification does a player have in advancing their bots/wpns if they're not even assured of winning at higher levels?
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Post by SlowReflexes on Feb 3, 2017 12:36:05 GMT -5
The point being is that you can be a good player, you've become proficient with advanced skills and tactics and/or even mastered these and your robot. It doesn't matter, unless you have a maxed out hangar with all bots and weapons at 12. Even if you do, you're still at the mercy of mm which handicaps your team with lower level bots. The unintended consequence being seen now are those players deliberately tanking mid-game when they realize they're not contributing anything to the match. What justification does a player have in advancing their bots/wpns if they're not even assured of winning at higher levels? Yes Pix wants us all to abstractly pursue excellence (the only tangible reward we get is a higher player rating, that we're not even allowed to see - wait so there isn't any tangible reward) in an environment where we depend on a team, whose members may or may not at any given time even be *trying* to win. OK then.
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cdog04
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Post by cdog04 on Feb 3, 2017 12:56:16 GMT -5
This thread has a great point. The game, with the new MM system, makes it require alot more skill. before, it was as simple as: buy an overpowered bot, buy overpowered weapons, ruin dreams. now, you will be going up against equally tough opponents, requiring you to actually use your resources effectively. I honestly like the new MM, and the recent balances.
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Feb 3, 2017 13:01:02 GMT -5
I'm going to spell this out one more time for the denser folks. The new MM is not based directly on Mr. Elo's works, please stop calling it an "Elo" system. Mr. Elo designed a performance ranking system for chess, where there are no differences in access to nor quality of "equipment". There, the horse is friggin' DEAD already, so please stop beating the carcass. Pixonic has specifically referred to Microsoft's performance ranking system service for XBox Live MMO games called TrueSkill. It is more complicated than Elo's system. I strongly urge the ignorant among us to read the FAQs included with their blog post. www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/trueskill-ranking-system/War Robots has a large scale range of equipment access (character level, play time) and quality (equipment level). It has already been well established that the new MM is (eventually) responsive to varying hangar strengths, and that there is a ratio between how much consideration is given to your Hanger Score vs. your Performance Rating. Tweaking various aspects of how that ratio is adjusted and controlled is how Pixonic is apparently attempting to achieve better matchmaking. Again, I am getting really sick and tired of all the straw-man arguments attempting to reduce this discussion to chess pieces. It's just not relevant.
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