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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on May 22, 2017 2:35:27 GMT -5
While I understand the current admins position on the subject is a negative, I think it is perhaps time the forum at large express its collective opinion on the topic, which might perhaps bring a change in the admins' approach: should self professed, boasting, exploiters (primarily tankers in this iteration of the MM, but not only) be banned from the forum?
I'm, obviously, for a positive answer to the question. Not so much because generally tankers are despicable by themselved (also). Not so much for the level of negativity that their boasting on forum brings (a lot, and maybe that'd be enough by itself). Not even so much because advertising behavior that is so frowned upon by the developers (in fact, for how I remember the EULA, it's actually against the rules downright, but I can't find the document anywhere to refresh my memory) that they openly punish it (not so effectively at all, but that's another story) goes against any logic of a game dedicate forum.
Boasting exploiters should be banned mostly because, as studies shows, toxic behavior is essentially contagious in nature: real life and online, the more people perceive it to be effective and essentially scot-free, the more people is brought to do it.
By allowing tankers and exploiters to boast on the forum, we are essentially breeding more tankers and exploiters, to our own (I assume non tankers are the vast majority. I hope, rather) detriment.
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Post by infraviolet on May 22, 2017 2:47:07 GMT -5
That's a tricky one. I think public shaming would usually suffice. But then again some of those individuals don't know shame...
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Post by llama4president on May 22, 2017 2:53:59 GMT -5
Could u please post a link(or screenshot) of the Eula?
i installed the game multiple times, searched for any trace of an Eula, but didn't find any.
Personally, i am against banning people because they are talking about game habits.
Also if those game habits aren't against any kind of rules, as the rules,as for now,
are inexistant.
The only rules that i know of are the forum ones:
-Posting information that can be used to cheat, hack, or exploit the game in ways other than the intent of the designers
-Cheating or hacking (disconnecting also counts)
Is tanking cheating?
Is leaving battles cheating?
if leaving battles is cheating, why there is a Leave button in the game?
wouldn't be easier to "block" it till you lost all bots?
If Leaving is cheating, why there is an LQ and not an increasing temp-ban ending in a perma-ban?
If tanking is cheating, why aren't they getting banned in the game?
the only bans that i heard of were of exploiters that were reaching under 1k trophies,
to seal club low level players. I don't know if they were perma or temp bans.
personally, i'd like to have Pixonic take a position, and publish some kind of Eula,
or even some game rules.
After they make it clear (inside the game, and not in some blog or somewhere people
might miss to read) we could agree on what is bad behaviour and what is cheating.
Right now i do think that those are bad behaviours, but not cheating.
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on May 22, 2017 3:06:00 GMT -5
Could u please post a link(or screenshot) of the Eula? i installed the game multiple times, searched for any kind of Eula, but didn't find any. Wish I could, that's why i said I'm going by memory as I couldn't find it anywhere |
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Post by Alanbit on May 22, 2017 3:26:34 GMT -5
I'm absolutely against cutting back people's freedom of expression.
I personaly think that mods in this forum are doing quite a good job.
Forbidding the expression of certain ideas is something dangerous and recalls me very very bad things.
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Post by Firebeard on May 22, 2017 3:35:35 GMT -5
Could u please post a link(or screenshot) of the Eula? i installed the game multiple times, searched for any trace of an Eula, but didn't find any. Personally, i am against banning people because they are talking about game habits. Also if those game habits aren't against any kind of rules, as the rules,as for now, are inexistant. The only rules that i know of are the forum ones: -Posting information that can be used to cheat, hack, or exploit the game in ways other than the intent of the designers -Cheating or hacking (disconnecting also counts) Is tanking cheating? Is leaving battles cheating? if leaving battles is cheating, why there is a Leave button in the game? wouldn't be easier to "block" it till you lost all bots? If Leaving is cheating, why there is an LQ and not an increasing temp-ban ending in a perma-ban? If tanking is cheating, why aren't they getting banned in the game? the only bans that i heard of were of exploiters that were reaching under 1k trophies, to seal club low level players. I don't know if they were perma or temp bans. personally, i'd like to have Pixonic take a position, and publish some kind of Eula, or even some game rules. After they make it clear (inside the game, and not in some blog or somewhere people might miss to read) we could agree on what is bad behaviour and what is cheating. Right now i do think that those are bad behaviours, but not cheating. Is "Tanking" Cheating? - Yes. You manipulated a loophole in the Rules to gain an unfair advantage, there are Rules I'll explain shortly - shouldn't need to. Is "Leaving" Cheating? - Only if there is collusion with Tanking. The Rules: It is Common knowledge that a game infers a balance for all Contestants. It needs no written, verbal, contractual or proof of existence. It is a known fact. When you played the game, you gave your consent through acquiesce to follow the Rules of Fair Play. If you deliberately put your Team at a disadvantage to later gain a personal advantage which upsets the "balance," you have breached the contract and cheated your teammates out of a Fair play and given an unfair advantage to their Opponents. Fair Play is implied regularly by Pixonic. Fair Play is the very reason for the Test Server, to check data and keep it inline with the interest of Fair Play. Pixonic also regularly state that they will Buff or Nerf items because they are too powerful or too weak so as to "balance" the game. .. Fair Play is implied, everywhere .. Why does Pixonic have a "Leave" tab? - Because Pixonic understands that "sometimes" you must Leave. However, Leavers have abused the generosity and reason by Pixonic. For this affront, the Leavers Pool was implemented. That alone should be a BIG neon sign - FAIR PLAY! |
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Post by llama4president on May 22, 2017 3:36:23 GMT -5
On the other hand, they are very strict of any Hack/Cheat thread, to the point i have seen ligthning fast speed
to close them in a few minutes with perfect efficiency.
That makes me think that tanking is not considered hacking nor cheating.
It could be exploiting tho.
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Post by llama4president on May 22, 2017 3:45:13 GMT -5
Is "Tanking" Cheating? - Yes. You manipulated a loophole in the Rules to gain an unfair advantage, there are Rules I'll explain shortly - shouldn't need to. Is "Leaving" Cheating? - Only if there is collusion with Tanking. The Rules: It is Common knowledge that a game infers a balance for all Contestants. It needs no written, verbal, contractual or proof of existence. It is a known fact. When you played the game, you gave your consent through acquiesce to follow the Rules of Fair Play. If you deliberately put your Team at a disadvantage to later gain a personal advantage which upsets the "balance," you have breached the contract and cheated your teammates out of a Fair play and given an unfair advantage to their Opponents. Fair Play is implied regularly by Pixonic. Fair Play is the very reason for the Test Server, to check data and keep it inline with the interest of Fair Play. Pixonic also regularly state that they will Buff or Nerf items because they are too powerful or too weak so as to "balance" the game. .. Fair Play is implied, everywhere .. Why does Pixonic have a "Leave" tab? - Because Pixonic understands that "sometimes" you must Leave. However, Leavers have abused the generosity and reason by Pixonic. For this affront, the Leavers Pool was implemented. That alone should be a BIG neon sign - FAIR PLAY! I don't see it as cheating. At max i could see it as exploiting the flaws of the MM. But don't misunderstand me, i WANT Pixonic to make some damn, clear, unrefutable in-game rules. not something on reddit, not something on facebook. Something that ALL the players have to see, and when you break them, a reminder points u to read them again on the parts you are breaking, to sensibilize you where you have to change your behaviour. 99% of the players never come to this forum, nor go to Reddit, nor check Facebook page. those can't be the media to share any rules. Most of the people end up in LQ having no idea whatsoever of why are they meeting Champion league players. Most of the people don't have even an idea they are actually in LQ. Pixonic should just work on their ingame communication skills, as right now they are very lacking. |
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on May 22, 2017 3:48:24 GMT -5
"-Posting information that can be used to cheat, hack, or exploit the game in ways other than the intent of the designers"
Not sure it's cheating, but surely I would say tanking is so exploitative that the developers felt the need to intervene, altho very clumsily so far. Isn't it?
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Post by llama4president on May 22, 2017 3:53:06 GMT -5
"-Posting information that can be used to cheat, hack, or exploit the game in ways other than the intent of the designers" Not sure it's cheating, but surely I would say tanking is so exploitative that the developers felt the need to intervene, altho very clumsily so far. Isn't it? For sure i'd call it Exploiting. The only doubt is that the intent of the designers is very unclear. they should just make it enough clear that there aren't any doubts, like with some ingame rules  i love rules, did any of you notice it?  |
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Post by Sebenza 21 on May 22, 2017 3:53:48 GMT -5
I vote no.
You're either a pathetic excuse of a team mate and a shameless bullier of new players or you're a noble warrior. I don't see that one could be swayed to become the other just by hearing the other discussing what it's like on their side of the fence.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 3:55:42 GMT -5
It's very odd that the EULA for this game can't be found. Just did an extensive search and came up with nothing. I think I'm going to e-mail Pix and ask that they provide it as it's rather curious that I can't find it.
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Post by B30RLL on May 22, 2017 4:05:09 GMT -5
 ...but opening a can of worms without proper checks and balances is even worse, mm'kay... |
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Post by Firebeard on May 22, 2017 4:08:07 GMT -5
It's "Common Knowledge." I think you should look up the definition.
It's almost as if, you're trying to justify the behavior. Pixonic doesn't approve of it - Case Closed.
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Post by llama4president on May 22, 2017 4:08:50 GMT -5
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on May 22, 2017 4:19:56 GMT -5
I vote no. I don't see that one could be swayed to become the other just by hearing the other discussing what it's like on their side of the fence. You'd be wrong thinking that. scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6605&context=etdQuote: "Next, we use the insights gained and find evidence for a contagion process underlying the spread of cheating behavior" . And there is quite a few studies proving that unethical behaviour is contageous, in game or in real life (in that same document, you'll find a number of reference to other studies in the academic and industrial environment of how cheating is contageous). The "everybody does it and no one pays, so why not I?" is powerful, and the fact that even the purest knight can fall from grace is so well known that epics have been built on it.. from Lancelot to Star Wars. It's actually not a case that most legal systems make it a crime to go around glorifying criminal behaviour and/or encouraging to engage in such behaviour (that'd be "Apologia di reato" in my language, "apologie de crimes" in french bu I have a black hole at the moment on how that's called in english) |
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Post by llama4president on May 22, 2017 4:26:08 GMT -5
I vote no. I don't see that one could be swayed to become the other just by hearing the other discussing what it's like on their side of the fence. You'd be wrong thinking that. scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6605&context=etdQuote: "Next, we use the insights gained and find evidence for a contagion process underlying the spread of cheating behavior" . And there is quite a few studies proving that unethical behaviour is contageous, in game or in real life (in that same document, you'll find a number of reference to other studies in the academic and industrial environment of how cheating is contageous). The "everybody does it and no one pays, so why not I?" is powerful, and the fact that even the purest knight can fall from grace is so well known that epics have been built on it.. from Lancelot to Star Wars. Would censoring the talks about tanking make tankers disappear from the game? I think people have a pretty clear idea of what is tanking already from their ingame battles. And i don't think most of the East Asian players , or any non-english speaking player have ever come to this forums. I am in one of the top100 clans, going around from position 40 to 80, and believe me, and only a couple of us attend this forum. |
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on May 22, 2017 4:31:36 GMT -5
Disappear, no. Contributing in dampening it? I think so. How much so? That I don't know, but a little would be already something. Having people glorifying a criminal behaviour makes that behaviour more common, there's plenty of empirical evidence about it. Again, that's the reason why most legal systems makes that a crime. |
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Post by Alanbit on May 22, 2017 4:36:41 GMT -5
You'd be wrong thinking that. scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6605&context=etdQuote: "Next, we use the insights gained and find evidence for a contagion process underlying the spread of cheating behavior" . And there is quite a few studies proving that unethical behaviour is contageous, in game or in real life (in that same document, you'll find a number of reference to other studies in the academic and industrial environment of how cheating is contageous). The "everybody does it and no one pays, so why not I?" is powerful, and the fact that even the purest knight can fall from grace is so well known that epics have been built on it.. from Lancelot to Star Wars. It's actually not a case that most legal systems make it a crime to go around glorifying criminal behaviour and/or encouraging to engage in such behaviour (that'd be "Apologia di reato" in my language, "apologie de crimes" in french bu I have a black hole at the moment on how that's called in english) Are there players using loopholes and breaking the fair-play? Sure, but ONLY by hearing their thoughts you can get a bigger picture of their motivation and methods, and even allow developers to improve the game. Just closing your eyes and ears to them is avoiding the problem, and there're tons of tons of tons of studies and history facts you could quote here that prove that ignoring a problem doesn't help at all in its solution. Just an example: Some players willingly enter the LQ to have "funnier" battles ------> Pixonic launched this weekend a new game mode. |
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Post by llama4president on May 22, 2017 4:41:26 GMT -5
Disappear, no. Contributing in dampening it? I think so. How much so? That I don't know, but a little would be already something. Having people glorifying a criminal behaviour makes that behaviour more common, that's plenty of empirical evidence about it. Again, that's the reason why most legal systems makes that a crime. I can't read over 3/4ths of the ingame names, be them Asian, Russian or other non english ones... I hardly believe that i would make ANY difference. I think some people, frustrated by tankers, are just looking for retribution on some forum members that publicly speak about their tanking or LQ experience. That wouldn't bring ANY solution to the ingame situation. The only solution is taking away the need for tanking. Not hiding the tanker, both ingame and in the forum. But really, Pixonic is so skilled at hiding things that they have hidden the rules too |
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Post by SuperHero on May 22, 2017 4:45:22 GMT -5
Actually 2 admins come from the TOP non-tanking clan on Android. One mod plays Master and Champion tier on iOS and used to be in a top 20 clan. But I get your point. There used to be a LOT of top players on this and the old forum. But most have now no use for the forum unless they help to keep the community going. But many still provide us with the info that we then pass through the forums. And many are registered users on this forum, but just remain silent most of the time. I also agree that most non-English speaking players would not bother with this forum. I know of Spanish, Thai and Chinese sites or FB groups for this game. I'm sure that there are others as well. __________ On topic: This has been something hotly debated among the admin and mod team for a long time and we came to the agreement that this is a "grey-area" issue. If you notice, we do not ban folks who have admitted to tanking, but we shut down any threads that try to teach people how to tank. If my memory serves me right, there has been only one case where the person disagreed with us and kept trying to push his agenda and was then subsequently banned. We do not ban admitted tankers, but we do not condone the behavior or action and we also do not allow any thread that teaches or promotes it. This we do arbitrarily as an agreed stand by the Admin&Mod Team as we believe it detrimental to the state of the game. You can disagree with this final line and call us controlling or opinionated, but that's what we currently believe. Take it or leave it. |
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on May 22, 2017 4:49:54 GMT -5
We do not ban admitted tankers, but we do not condone the behavior or action and we also do not allow any thread that teaches or promotes it. This we do arbitrarily as an agreed stand by the Admin&Mod Team as we believe it detrimental to the state of the game. You can disagree with this final line and call us controlling or opinionated, but that's what we currently believe. Take it or leave it. It's hypotetical given that the vote is going the other way (so far), but does that mean that if the final poll was 90 to 10 in favor of banning with high participation, you'd still be adamant about not banning them? Or , more generally, that if the forum community strongly felt about a given thing differently than the admin groups, the admin group would ignore that? |
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Post by Sebenza 21 on May 22, 2017 4:57:28 GMT -5
I vote no. I don't see that one could be swayed to become the other just by hearing the other discussing what it's like on their side of the fence. You'd be wrong thinking that. scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6605&context=etdQuote: "Next, we use the insights gained and find evidence for a contagion process underlying the spread of cheating behavior" . And there is quite a few studies proving that unethical behaviour is contageous, in game or in real life (in that same document, you'll find a number of reference to other studies in the academic and industrial environment of how cheating is contageous). The "everybody does it and no one pays, so why not I?" is powerful, and the fact that even the purest knight can fall from grace is so well known that epics have been built on it.. from Lancelot to Star Wars. It's actually not a case that most legal systems make it a crime to go around glorifying criminal behaviour and/or encouraging to engage in such behaviour (that'd be "Apologia di reato" in my language, "apologie de crimes" in french bu I have a black hole at the moment on how that's called in english) Okay, you've produced a credible paper with interesting conclusions. According to this research the likelihood of becoming a cheater increases the more cheater friends you have. I have no cheater friends and so am not at all interested in cheating, maybe I would be if I were in a clan full of cheaters. Or maybe I wouldn't, maybe I'd leave such a clan. Maybe I'm not the type to be led astray. I don't want to be in a community that all think the same way. If that happens we just end up circle jerking each other. |
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Post by llama4president on May 22, 2017 4:57:42 GMT -5
We do not ban admitted tankers, but we do not condone the behavior or action and we also do not allow any thread that teaches or promotes it. This we do arbitrarily as an agreed stand by the Admin&Mod Team as we believe it detrimental to the state of the game. You can disagree with this final line and call us controlling or opinionated, but that's what we currently believe. Take it or leave it. It's hypotetical given that the vote is going the other way (so far), but does that mean that if the final poll was 90 to 10 in favor of banning with high participation, you'd still be adamant about not banning them? Or , more generally, that if the forum community strongly felt about a given thing differently than the admin groups, the admin group would ignore that? You should ask: What if Pixonic turned it instead of a grey-area into a black-and-white one? The problem is that Pixonic is still making money out of tankers and leavers, to keep players retention. And that makes it a grey-area. As long as Pixonic doesn't stand up and make a clear decision, they force people to consider this a grey-zone. LQ is just a faulty band aid that doesn't solve any issue about tanking. Tankers are there, lurking in top silver in NQ. |
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Post by cypho on May 22, 2017 5:06:37 GMT -5
The basic premise of the OP's statement is flawed. There is no 'collective opinion' on a forum like this. There are only opinions, some of which are agreed with by the majority, some are not. Long may that live, otherwise, what's the point?
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Post by DirtyLikaRat® on May 22, 2017 5:17:24 GMT -5
What would I do without Blastronaut to brighten my days... Nah man. Don't bam the tankers and the hackers and the shameless, self promoting Leophites.... Wait that last one was me. Anyway. Where is Blast lately anyway? Or is it I that hath not been present amongst mine contemporaries? Hey how do you tag someone?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 5:21:52 GMT -5
What would I do without Blastronaut to brighten my days... Nah man. Don't bam the tankers and the hackers and the shameless, self promoting Leophites.... Wait that last one was me. Anyway. Where is Blast lately anyway? Or is it I that hath not been present amongst mine contemporaries? Hey how do you tag someone? How to tag someone: Hover over their username on the left and put @username. Like this DirtyLikaRat® Edit: To make sure I'm not misunderstood you put the persons username you are wanting to tag not @username Lol |
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on May 22, 2017 5:23:43 GMT -5
The basic premise of the OP's statement is flawed. There is no 'collective opinion' on a forum like this. There are only opinions, some of which are agreed with by the majority, some are not. Long may that live, otherwise, what's the point? English is not my primary language, but I seem to remember "collective" to have a broader and more varied meaning than just "single minded borg style". I seem to recall collective to be a synonymous of aggregated, in the context of the OP meaning an opinion exemplifying the prevalent sentiment of the community formed by collecting those of the individual members. |
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Post by SuperHero on May 22, 2017 5:25:34 GMT -5
What would I do without Blastronaut to brighten my days... Nah man. Don't bam the tankers and the hackers and the shameless, self promoting Leophites.... Wait that last one was me. Anyway. Where is Blast lately anyway? Or is it I that hath not been present amongst mine contemporaries? Hey how do you tag someone? Blastronaut is currently banned for a week. To answer the question about hypothetical votes: There have been enough polls about tanking and if you see them, the results have not been that far skewed enough to move the A&M Team to change their stance at this time. In fact, everytime it comes up, the tankers come out in full force to vote. LOL |
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Post by Dredd77 on May 22, 2017 5:32:53 GMT -5
We do not ban admitted tankers, but we do not condone the behavior or action and we also do not allow any thread that teaches or promotes it. This we do arbitrarily as an agreed stand by the Admin&Mod Team as we believe it detrimental to the state of the game. You can disagree with this final line and call us controlling or opinionated, but that's what we currently believe. Take it or leave it. Should have been "tank it or leave it." #opportunitymissed |
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