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Post by Dredd77 on Apr 18, 2017 19:12:41 GMT -5
First, please read the rules of this thread fully before commenting.
Alright folks, the Community Roundtable is right around the corner, with shaolinrogue and myself as your representatives. According to Pix, their idea is to have every delegate present get 4-5 minutes to introduce themselves and express their concerns, before it goes open discussion. THE THEME IS MATCHMAKING. There are lots of other topics that deserve to be heard, but we have to work with what we have. To be comprehensive we'd need a weekend convention. We've done this topic ad nauseum in the Forum, so if you want to write an essay, please do it in one of those. What I am looking for here is this: Given the chance to ask Pixo a question on the topic of matchmaking, what would you ask? EXAMPLE: How do you respond to those clan leaders who have suddenly found themselves unable to coach and develop their membership in the field, lest they set them up for demoralizing failure by upleaging them?I want to keep this on task with a very narrow focus, so I'm letting folks know now that I may edit and/or delete posts that don't follow this request. We're looking for a list of questions. Once we have that sorted, we'll start fleshing out substantive details. That will come later. Sorry to be so strict, we just can't afford right now to wade through an ocean of noise for a current of signal. CC: +DethHilt+
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 19:19:42 GMT -5
How are you able to squad with lower ranked clanmates while still playing conpetitively? I really want this issue adressed because I enjoy the game most when I have my buddies playing along side me. It's really not fun when a Master Leagued clanmate gets to play in a squad with a bunch of Diamonds and Golds, and we are forced to play in Master League (and usually lose too). In the old system, we could have multiple hangars to squad with whomever we liked and in different tiers (eg. A player in low gold could put 4/8s to squad with a player in low silver) How are you (Pixonic) going to solve this? And will you solve it?
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Apr 18, 2017 19:29:41 GMT -5
Is it possible (within the current matchmaking algorithm) to apply base level equipment ceilings/floors (IE. Tiers), with leagues scoring used to stratify player "skill" within each tier?
Follow up with, can/would the War Robots team be willing to adjust Au and Ag rewards to scale accordingly with tier/leagues difficulty to ensure players are incentivized to continue progression?
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SprintingGoat
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Post by SprintingGoat on Apr 18, 2017 19:32:46 GMT -5
It would appear, on the surface, that many of the community's concerns with the MM could be largely alleviated by incorporating hangar strength in the MM algorithm. Is this option completely off the table and if so, why?
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Post by ✧✦Ŋɫתʃɑ✦✧ on Apr 18, 2017 19:34:03 GMT -5
Can you (Pixonic) create a separate matchmaking that takes in consideration hangar levels instead of league score? Like a "Normal game" mode instead of "Ranked". Sometimes I want to play with lower level stuff without the need to create a smurf account, and many players wish they could do the same. How can you (Pixonic) work around this?
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Post by ΜØØSE on Apr 18, 2017 20:20:13 GMT -5
Why is tanking and leaving still happening so frequently in the main queue?By my count, 30-35% of players in my last 20 matches. And I confirmed with Pixonic I am not in LQ. My last match:
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Post by ΜØØSE on Apr 18, 2017 20:55:29 GMT -5
What is the plan for players who try to tank by starting a match, doing a little bit of damage, and leaving?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 22:05:58 GMT -5
Do you understand that having a 100% randomized match making, as bad as it would be, would be more fun and interesting for most players than the current match making? Do you understand that having many people pay 1-10 dollars once or twice is far more profitable than having a tiny tiny fraction of players pay 50-300 dollars?
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Post by ΜØØSE on Apr 18, 2017 22:19:04 GMT -5
Do you understand that having a 100% randomized match making, as bad as it would be, would be more fun and interesting for most players than the current match making? Do you understand that having many people pay 1-10 dollars once or twice is far more profitable than having a tiny tiny fraction of players pay 50-300 dollars? So you're just looking for yes/no answers?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 22:24:09 GMT -5
Do you understand that having a 100% randomized match making, as bad as it would be, would be more fun and interesting for most players than the current match making? Do you understand that having many people pay 1-10 dollars once or twice is far more profitable than having a tiny tiny fraction of players pay 50-300 dollars? So you're just looking for yes/no answers? That's weird. That's not even the post I wrote.
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Post by miatahead on Apr 18, 2017 22:55:12 GMT -5
1. Seriously explain how the old, weapon and bot based level-based MM was "bad". No bull crap.
2. Did you really think the further segmentation of an already diminishing pool of players (to create the Tankers League) was really a proper fix for people's perceived issues with MM? See question 1.
3. Please describe your thought process on how you decided an ELO-type based MM would be fair and equitable for all players, given the restrictions placed upon the level structure of weapons and bots?
4. Please confirm Pixonic's philosophy is to have an MM, regardless of criteria, push players in the long run, towards a 50% win rate.
5. Please explain why, from a player's perspective, why MM fluctuates so wildly. The answer cannot defer to breadth and depth of the available players pool as an excuse, since you've chosen to implement the Tanker's League. Unless you are that dumb.
6. Please confirm if there is manipulation in the MM, to drive players either to a lower or higher win rate at any given time and the conditions that would dictate why you think this manipulation would be valid?
7. Is MM structured such that it is an attempt by Pixonic to manipulate player behavior at any given time?
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Post by boomsplat on Apr 18, 2017 23:32:53 GMT -5
What steps are you taking to prevent the types of player level mismatches that seem to happen such as lvl 30 players being dropped into matches with single digit level players? I recall that was one of the reasons why you moved to this MM but the mismatches seem worse now than the previous MM.
Tanker league doesn't seem to be an effective threat against players who tank, in fact some report that is is almost a reward for tanking with more resources in terms of Au and Ag rewards. Have you seen any player behavior changes with the tanker league? What will you do to fix this issue more permanently and penalize players who deliberately and negatively exploit the game by tanking/ditching?
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Post by peterw35 on Apr 19, 2017 0:13:09 GMT -5
If I can ask only one question and to focus on match making topic only. following will be my question:
Has pix considered while keeping the league system, but use another match making comparison base instead of damaged based? (not going back to the old system if it's dodgy but change the comparison reference) e.g. a mix of Player level + player league level + bot used (different weight per bot type and bot level) + weapon used (different weight per weapon type and weapon level)
having this weight system in modules in the code will help greatly in the future balancing tasks. e.g. you could decide to have a MM leaning more towards weapon by increase the weight % of the weapon module. If player league level is less relevant, then reduce the weight % of the player league points.
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Post by llama4president on Apr 19, 2017 0:30:47 GMT -5
What will do Pixonic to make all -silver- Mediums being enjoyable and have a real spot in the current/future MM ?
In the previous MM the Mediums had a shiny protected spot to express their potential, now, amid Heavies and lights, they get outclassed in every aspect and are losing fast their place in the game. Bots like Vityaz, Golem or Boa, but generally, the medium category, are in dire need of love.
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Post by 7iquid on Apr 19, 2017 1:08:01 GMT -5
How about taking player level into account in Matchmaking? For this to work the level 30 cap would have to increase.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 1:22:14 GMT -5
As peterw35 asked. I think these are pretty damn dgood questions to get answers to.
Post by peterw35 on Apr 9, 2017 at 9:45am
1. What is pixonic's goal RE tanking queue? Are people in the tanking queue be left there to do their own thing or are they be punished while in tanking queue? (e.g. No gold/silver payout, no league gain/loss)
2. Is the intention of the thanking queue still allowing players to drop their trophies? Has it been considered a player who wants to seal club can still do so by using the tanking queue as the channel?
3. Has pix considered giving out higher rewards per match (e.g. Gold / silver payout) for higher league players to increase higher hanger players's motivation to move up in league?
4. What's pixonic's vision of ideal match making? So we get an idea what they are trying to achieve.
5. Has pix considered reducing the match making bracket so e.g. Gold league won't see diamond league or even master league players? Do we have a big enough player base to achieve this?
6. Has pix considered while keeping the league system, but use another match making comparison base instead of damaged based? ( not going back to the old system if it's dodgy but change the comparison reference)
Following questions are related to map design.
7. Pix did mention that they don't like symmetrical map designs (maybe because they are boring?). But what's pix' principle in keeping an un-symmetrical map "fair"? So far I only know pix is using distance to Centre beacon.
8. Why the new moon map has two beacons very close to one another just like the power plant which is one of the complaints about power plant being unfair? Because of the ability to easily hold two beacons from one spawn area which is closer to it has an advantage.
Additional questions (optional) I know war robots is not the only game from pixonic. Does war robots has a dedicated team working on it? Or are the devs having to work on all the games published by pixonics?
How many devs/testers are involved in war robots?
What's the main difficulty in merging ios and android player base together? (we should be one community right?)
What's the average league of the members in the PXNC clan?
Does any of the management team member plays the game as well?
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Post by zeus on Apr 19, 2017 2:02:41 GMT -5
Why are chronic map skippers, those who skipped in that allocated 15s which the system is supposed to replace, in the LQ along with people who purposely tank their games to club weaker hangars? Is this an intended function of the LQ? Does this mean that Pixonic does not approve of map skipping, or at least chronic map skipping?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 2:29:55 GMT -5
Why are chronic map skippers, those who skipped in that allocated 15s which the system is supposed to replace, in the LQ along with people who purposely tank their games to club weaker hangars? Is this an intended function of the LQ? Does this mean that Pixonic does not approve of map skipping, or at least chronic map skipping? Quitters land in the quitters queue. Intent is irrelevant. Asked and answered. Not trying to be a jerk, but please let's focus on hangar strength MM and not quitters being mad about the quit queue.
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Post by Why? on Apr 19, 2017 2:58:40 GMT -5
1. Does Pix plan on increasing Test Server rewards or at least make it more viable?
24hrs premium and 100 gold isn't nearly a pittance for getting people to dev test for free and then free publicity from the youtube videos that are mandatory now. Will the Test Servers players be rewarded accordingly in future?
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Post by wildboar on Apr 19, 2017 3:14:29 GMT -5
I understood the new matchmaking was to fix issues such as 5 x 4/12 Gepard hangars 'Seal Clubbing' the new players , potentially putting them off the game. So why do we hear stories of new players < level 10 against seasoned veterans in the Leaver Queue getting obliterated in seconds by maxed hardware? Surely the problem has been made worse that could have been fixed by an adjustment to Gepard?
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Post by B30RLL on Apr 19, 2017 3:41:47 GMT -5
Is it possible (within the current matchmaking algorithm) to apply base level equipment ceilings/floors (IE. Tiers), with leagues scoring used to stratify player "skill" within each tier? Follow up with, can/would the War Robots team be willing to adjust Au and Ag rewards to scale accordingly with tier/leagues difficulty to ensure players are incentivized to continue progression? I agree with this, and the 2nd part is something I have been arguing for through various channels. This is very relevant for MM. All the complaints relating to MM, tankers, seal clubbers etc all boils down to lack of proper incentivizing. If you implement a progressive system (the leagues) but don't apply any incentives to follow such progression (Au you get for promotion is de minimis, and threat of leaver queue is a joke) of course people will manipulate it. If you want players to embrace stronger competition and fight tougher battles, you need to incentive them to do so. Scaled Ag payout can solve a lot the problems we face now, and won't impact Pixo's main income source which is Au.
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Post by zeus on Apr 19, 2017 5:23:54 GMT -5
Why are chronic map skippers, those who skipped in that allocated 15s which the system is supposed to replace, in the LQ along with people who purposely tank their games to club weaker hangars? Is this an intended function of the LQ? Does this mean that Pixonic does not approve of map skipping, or at least chronic map skipping? Quitters land in the quitters queue. Intent is irrelevant. Asked and answered. Not trying to be a jerk, but please let's focus on hangar strength MM and not quitters being mad about the quit queue. I'm not in the LQ though, did I miss Pixo making an official stance on map skipping? I don't skip much either. But it's something I want to question about their LQ catching map skippers which I recalled being allowed by Pixonic. If they are punishing tankers and map skippers alike, it will be great if they put an official statement with regards to map skipping. Maybe I'll send in a ticket and hope I won't get a automated reply.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 12:05:35 GMT -5
zeus, sorry I was snappy, but map skipping has been hotly debated over the past week in several threads. I dont want to rehash here, and will send you a PM. My question on the matchmaking imbalance is really whether it is intentional on Pix's part? I dont mean it to be a confrontational question, but about 1/3 of all solo play games have totally mismatched teams. (eg. 1 champion/2 masters/2 diamond/1 gold vs 3 diamond/2 gold/1 silver). As an Android Diamond League player, there are likely thousands of pilots seeking a game every minute from within that league (I assume silver/gold/diamond are most common leagues). And yet champions and masters appear in my games all the time. Is this just the querks of the MM parameters, or is it by design that every so often you get these total one sided setups?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 12:24:28 GMT -5
As peterw35 asked. I think these are pretty damn dgood questions to get answers to. Post by peterw35 on Apr 9, 2017 at 9:45am 8. Why the new moon map has two beacons very close to one another just like the power plant which is one of the complaints about power plant being unfair? Because of the ability to easily hold two beacons from one spawn area which is closer to it has an advantage. At least for this one, the Moon is symmetrical. So there should not be any spawn advantage issues at all.
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Post by farshmachine13 on Apr 19, 2017 12:57:52 GMT -5
I'd ask them why there is no report button for leavers/those who go afk, so that they are banned. Also I'd ask them why the 「fluffernutter」 the games 5vs6 count for the league system.
And I have a message for the leavers/afk themselves: Please, go die or get a vasectomy. Wish y'all get hit by a truck. Several times. Go kill urselves, stupid, 「slow」, mother「fluffernutter」ing morons.
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Apr 19, 2017 14:23:53 GMT -5
Question for Pix: Would it be at all possible to have a spectator slot in the squading interface to allow for match recording and promotional video making by users? This could include many options for Clans and community video makers to compile first class match coverage and help promote the game on social media platforms.
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Post by War Child on Apr 19, 2017 14:30:02 GMT -5
I'd ask them why there is no report button for leavers/those who go afk, so that they are banned. Also I'd ask them why the ?firetruck? the games 5vs6 count for the league system. And I have a message for the leavers/afk themselves: Please, go die or get a vasectomy. Wish y'all get hit by a truck. Several times. Go kill urselves, stupid, ?special?ed, mother?firetruck?ing morons. But how would you know they were leaving intentionally?Banning people from the game just randomly is just as bad,or even worse than tanking/leaving.
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Post by War Child on Apr 19, 2017 14:32:03 GMT -5
I'd ask them why there is no report button for leavers/those who go afk, so that they are banned. Also I'd ask them why the ?firetruck? the games 5vs6 count for the league system. And I have a message for the leavers/afk themselves: Please, go die or get a vasectomy. Wish y'all get hit by a truck. Several times. Go kill urselves, stupid, ?special?ed, mother?firetruck?ing morons. But how would you know they were leaving intentionally?Banning people from the game just randomly is just as bad,or even worse than tanking/leaving. BTW with that attitude in your first few posts,you will get banned from here,I've warned you.
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Post by Sybill on Apr 19, 2017 15:11:59 GMT -5
How does Pixonic plan to solve the problem that the current mm makes all efforts to improve (upgrade) a hangar completely senseless?
Increasing hangar strength (damage) is immediately neutralized by mm, thus robbing the game the rewarding emotion of achievement.
Or does Pixonic believe that reaching a certain league would provide enough motivation alone?
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Apr 19, 2017 15:17:52 GMT -5
I understood the new matchmaking was to fix issues such as 5 x 4/12 Gepard hangars 'Seal Clubbing' the new players , potentially putting them off the game. So why do we hear stories of new players < level 10 against seasoned veterans in the Leaver Queue getting obliterated in seconds by maxed hardware? Surely the problem has been made worse that could have been fixed by an adjustment to Gepard? Some food for thought. I created a brand new account to see what a "new" player experiences when just starting out. It honestly doesn't matter where the new players are, tankers screw them either way (in LQ or normal matchmaking). Once my 4 slot 5/5 (or less) all Ag account (2x Boa, Patton, Golem) got into Silver I've been demolished by 9/9 Au/WSP hangars. Ever try and take on a 9/9 Thunder Carn in a 5/5 Thunder/Tum Boa? There's zero chance to win. A lvl 5 Thunder and Tumbulas doesn't do anything (literally) to the Carnage's Ancile. Every game since exiting Bronze has been a debacle. I'm betting that new players are quitting in droves once they get into Silver League as there is absolutely nothing they can do when they face Galahad, Carns, and Gareths who are all premium weaponed out. Don't believe me? Try it out yourself. In 2 days or less you can hit lvl 20. Once you hit Silver League you'll see exactly what I saw. We're eating our own and no one seems to care...
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