b4you
Destrier
Posts: 112
Karma: 47
Platform: iOS
League: Diamond
Server Region: North America
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Post by b4you on Jan 22, 2017 12:45:30 GMT -5
My 4/7 line up with no shield bots and only light/medium should match up against a 10/11.25 Griff. I get we have the same win rate, but that's no excuse for this much equipment difference. Also, you can see how many people just leave a game. One blue from the drop. 2 more on my team when the reds got an early lead. Then I capped us to a 4 beacon lead and 2 reds bailed. Things that need to improve: 1) Some accounting for bot/weapon levels. It looks like win rate is the determining factor. 2) Some type of match dodging warning then penalty. Fighting 3 v 6 is just dumb. 3) A wider range for matching based on win rate.
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Post by ivx on Jan 22, 2017 13:27:56 GMT -5
I have tens of photos of just this in different variations and setups.
According to people on this board, this should resolve itself given a bit of time. So try giving it some time and see.
If it doesn't, then they should probably weigh hangar strength a bit more when factoring this stuff in.
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Jan 22, 2017 13:34:12 GMT -5
IOS is being used as the experiment, with the Android users as control. When it drops for Android it will be refined hopefully thanks to the sad Apple people getting run over. Youzz lab rats.
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Post by boomsplat on Jan 22, 2017 13:38:39 GMT -5
IOS is being used as the experiment, with the Android users as control. When it drops for Android it will be refined hopefully thanks to the sad Apple people getting run over. Youzz lab rats. Lab rats - lol. That's me in the upper left.
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Post by Dredd77 on Jan 22, 2017 13:46:17 GMT -5
It's important to remember that while hangar strength (I am told) has some bearing, it's really performance-driven. I get that the obvious disparity you highlight here is glaring, and [RUIN] members tanking their ratings to game the system is a thing (and not just them), but by the same token, it's sorta working as intended.
Here's a different example. My six-year-old son plays. I love that he does, and he has a blast win or lose, but... being honest, from a skill perspective, well, he's six.
He also loves to spend all his resources on whatever catches his eye. A Leo, most recently.
Under the old system, Liam's blind choice of bots and total ignorance of the mm system (and the repercussions of his purchasing) bumped him up in the tiers. He was going up against vastly more skilled competition because of his hangar, despite a very low level of skill.
Now, he can run those same bots at will, and his consistent performance will ensure he at least will be up against people who might need a couple more minutes to mech him out.
Just a thought.
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b4you
Destrier
Posts: 112
Karma: 47
Platform: iOS
League: Diamond
Server Region: North America
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Post by b4you on Jan 22, 2017 16:23:23 GMT -5
It's important to remember that while hangar strength (I am told) has some bearing, it's really performance-driven. I get that the obvious disparity you highlight here is glaring, and [RUIN] members tanking their ratings to game the system is a thing (and not just them), but by the same token, it's sorta working as intended. Here's a different example. My six-year-old son plays. I love that he does, and he has a blast win or lose, but... being honest, from a skill perspective, well, he's six. He also loves to spend all his resources on whatever catches his eye. A Leo, most recently. Under the old system, Liam's blind choice of bots and total ignorance of the mm system (and the repercussions of his purchasing) bumped him up in the tiers. He was going up against vastly more skilled competition because of his hangar, despite a very low level of skill. Now, he can run those same bots at will, and his consistent performance will ensure he at least will be up against people who might need a couple more minutes to mech him out. Just a thought. No Red was above 20 or 5/6. The bot/weapon range is so wide that it removes much of the "skill determines the outcome" factor. Had the ruin guy stayed around, he could have 1 bot the match for 10 gold easily. No one wants to lose because they are getting stomped by better bots. If the goal is to counter seal clubbing, then nerf the tools to do so. If the goal is to create a competitive scene by using elo, then you need firm and publicly known tiers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 16:51:14 GMT -5
If Pix didn't consider the implications of having everyone start from zero in terms of Elo or that players would employ tanking to manipulate the system, then they are incredibly naive (bordering on blind).
A simple solution mightve been to impute an initial Elo score based on their performance in recent matches, then let it go up or down from there. Even a rough approximation could've drastically decreased the initial disruption and unhappiness.
No matter how they approached it, some sort of information should've been conveyed to players about the change and the potential short term issues associated with it.
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Post by Trogon on Jan 22, 2017 17:02:13 GMT -5
Here's another for your enjoyment (Condor is my iOS aler-ego). Yes, I was able to contribute something to this win, but being put in games where there are players twice your levels doesn't feel like a fair fight and really isn't much fun. I was meched out pretty early. And for those who are still doubters, no this is not an isolated incident and does not seem to be getting any better. On the whole, so far I would say the old MM was better. If this is part of some new strategy to balance the entire team by putting weaker together with stronger, I say it's a fail, at least from the standpoint of game enjoyment. Try again, pix. results me top blue second blue top red second red
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Post by boomsplat on Jan 22, 2017 17:07:54 GMT -5
If Pix didn't consider the implications of having everyone start from zero in terms of Elo or that players would employ tanking to manipulate the system, then they are incredibly naive (bordering on blind). A simple solution mightve been to impute an initial Elo score based on their performance in recent matches, then let it go up or down from there. Even a rough approximation could've drastically decreased the initial disruption and unhappiness. No matter how they approached it, some sort of information should've been conveyed to players about the change and the potential short term issues associated with it. I guess I've been operating under the assumption that Pixo must have a plan....and maybe that's where I'm mistaken. maybe they don't really know what is going to happen with this Elo system being implemented on a game with such complexity. Prior to the change, there was a lot of debate on this forum about whether Elo was right for this game...now I don't know squat about the subject, but maybe Pixo doesn't know much either on how it would work. As others have pointed out, it's not something you can put on the test server to try out....so maybe IOS is the test server and Pixo has remained quiet because who is going to be happy here on IOS being an unwitting lab rat. they came out pretty fast with informal info thru the mods on intentional tanking and clubbing new players.....so they are quite aware of what is happening and probably knew that loophole. The fact that they won't even provide any other info is troubling.
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Post by zman on Jan 22, 2017 20:04:10 GMT -5
Just had this game, we lost pretty solidly, my team was just to slow to get and hold theirs beacon on Springfield. But, the teams were quite well balanced. I'm ~9/9.5 and the War clan was averaged around that with a solid win percentage. The top two guys each were 12/12 Too tier guys, but the other 10 members in the match were quite well balanced around a point right around me. Each team got a Top tier guy which shouldn't have been there, but for the most part both teams were balanced and as far as damage scores go it was a good range. One War player was a bit below the rest of us, but the MM balanced a mixed Clan squad and. A bunch of randoms well. For me the MM has been getting better and I'm seeing fewer TT guys, but most of my matches have the majority of the players close to where I should be, High Gold to the poor TT Performers. It is looking like the new MM is settling down from the top down.
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Post by boomsplat on Jan 22, 2017 20:34:50 GMT -5
Here is a picture of the new secret Elo matchmaker system Pixo is using - a chicken named Elo. 100% natural and quite delicious when it wears out. A lot of the fluctuations are coming from Pixo swapping out chickens to see which one will do the best job in matching pilots....hang in there IOS users - I'm sure the next chicken will get it just right.
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Post by lilryry on Jan 22, 2017 20:51:38 GMT -5
It's important to remember that while hangar strength (I am told) has some bearing, it's really performance-driven. I get that the obvious disparity you highlight here is glaring, and [RUIN] members tanking their ratings to game the system is a thing (and not just them), but by the same token, it's sorta working as intended. Here's a different example. My six-year-old son plays. I love that he does, and he has a blast win or lose, but... being honest, from a skill perspective, well, he's six. He also loves to spend all his resources on whatever catches his eye. A Leo, most recently. Under the old system, Liam's blind choice of bots and total ignorance of the mm system (and the repercussions of his purchasing) bumped him up in the tiers. He was going up against vastly more skilled competition because of his hangar, despite a very low level of skill. Now, he can run those same bots at will, and his consistent performance will ensure he at least will be up against people who might need a couple more minutes to mech him out. Just a thought. i get what you're saying but the game shouldn't be balanced around finding matches for young kids or people that are bad at the game...
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Post by Dredd77 on Jan 22, 2017 20:58:14 GMT -5
It's important to remember that while hangar strength (I am told) has some bearing, it's really performance-driven. I get that the obvious disparity you highlight here is glaring, and [RUIN] members tanking their ratings to game the system is a thing (and not just them), but by the same token, it's sorta working as intended. Here's a different example. My six-year-old son plays. I love that he does, and he has a blast win or lose, but... being honest, from a skill perspective, well, he's six. He also loves to spend all his resources on whatever catches his eye. A Leo, most recently. Under the old system, Liam's blind choice of bots and total ignorance of the mm system (and the repercussions of his purchasing) bumped him up in the tiers. He was going up against vastly more skilled competition because of his hangar, despite a very low level of skill. Now, he can run those same bots at will, and his consistent performance will ensure he at least will be up against people who might need a couple more minutes to mech him out. Just a thought. i get what you're saying but the game shouldn't be balanced around finding matches for young kids or people that are bad at the game... Little kids might be the exception, but without accomodating people who are bad at the game, you don't have a game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 21:15:14 GMT -5
i get what you're saying but the game shouldn't be balanced around finding matches for young kids or people that are bad at the game... Little kids might be the exception, but without accomodating people who are bad at the game, you don't have a game. ... which, today, seems to cover most of the spanish-speaking world. As such, I look forward to seeing my recent teammates Piloto 1234, Carlos XXX, Victor RMadrid and General Pollo (the famed arch-enemy of Colonel Sanders) falling down the deepest, darkest hole the MM can provide so they can enjoy milling around aimlessly and shooting into walls with each other in peace. Honestly, one of the main upsides of a rating system is to get the utterly unreliable and incompetent out of general population and into matches with others like themselves.
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alex000
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Post by alex000 on Jan 22, 2017 22:03:26 GMT -5
Hi guys! I'm new to this forum and I don't know all the terms yet. But What I want to say, the new MM system for iOS is just awful. just look at my profile: 3 light robots of 2 lvl. and this is my regular, common opponents since last update: I had an old android account, so I'm quit experienced in this game. Prior to this update I had 75% win rate on iOS account just because of skill, I bought Gepard after update. And now those guys from Pix decided, as someone stated here, that I should play against 6yo kids but with 10lvl heavy robots and 30 lvl accounts. Are they trying to make 50% win rate for all players? that really weird and unrespectful behavior.
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Post by zman on Jan 22, 2017 22:17:44 GMT -5
What does your average opponent look like. Are those regular?
Also, a 2/8 isn't as weak as it looks at first and that is what is likely setting your hanger strength. Also, I believe the new MM is weighting Weapons more than it did before, so having Weapon levels much higher than Bot level is not as advantageous as it was before.
The MM sorts from the top down and should get quite a bit better with time, and low to mid strength hangers with an established Elo take the brunt of the turbulence if the new system.
Edit: Also, if you weight Avg Bot kills, Avg Damage, and winrate all three of you even. I don't think that is what they are using for matchmaking, but overall it fits. I'm going to have to pay more attention and rule that out of my matches.
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Post by lilryry on Jan 22, 2017 22:36:45 GMT -5
Hi guys! I'm new to this forum and I don't know all the terms yet. But What I want to say, the new MM system for iOS is just awful. just look at my profile: 3 light robots of 2 lvl. and this is my regular, common opponents since last update: I had an old android account, so I'm quit experienced in this game. Prior to this update I had 75% win rate on iOS account just because of skill, I bought Gepard after update. And now those guys from Pix decided, as someone stated here, that I should play against 6yo kids but with 10lvl heavy robots and 30 lvl accounts. Are they trying to make 50% win rate for all players? that really weird and unrespectful behavior. unfortunately your win% is the only thing that really matters at this point so until you lose and get that down some I would say you will continue to get unfavorable match ups
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Post by zman on Jan 22, 2017 22:50:16 GMT -5
It is far more complicated than merely win percentage. Also, the MM does not force 50% winrate on you either, it's a pressure towards 50%, but won't force it. I'm maintaining a very consistent 56-58% up towards was was High Gold where the MM has settled down considerably.
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Post by lephturn on Jan 22, 2017 22:50:36 GMT -5
If you have level 8 weapons you are going to see level 7-9 weapons and bots. The days of using far under levelled bots with high level weapons are over. I am fairly new and had the same issue. I put my level 6/7 weapons on a couple of Griffins and the matches are much better. Once I get my Meds and lights up to 6 or 7 and level more weapons it should be fine. No matter how many battles I ran with 4/3 lights, it put me vs 6-8 heavies.
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Post by 『 Dᴇᴀᴛʜ 』 on Jan 23, 2017 2:23:08 GMT -5
I still find myself playing with/against Full Maxed players, it sucks hard for me and my level 6 bots with level 9 weapons; I can barelly maintain a 50% winrate(not atributed to me tho) And look at this guy now: Yeah you are seeing it right, 88% winrate. What gives? Just because he is maxed out? Why should he play with me and my 50%, oh what is because someone needs to carry my win(he was in my team)? And no he wasn't squadding, and it's needless to say that he took 1st place and we ended spawn-raiding the enemy team while the game ended in less then 5 minutes. This reality people. Live with it if you're ok with this kind of clubbing or move on if you've had enough. I for myself will not tolerate this new kind of clubbing and will leave in about a week if things stay like they're now!
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Post by ivx on Jan 23, 2017 2:31:31 GMT -5
If you have level 8 weapons you are going to see level 7-9 weapons and bots. The days of using far under levelled bots with high level weapons are over. I am fairly new and had the same issue. I put my level 6/7 weapons on a couple of Griffins and the matches are much better. Once I get my Meds and lights up to 6 or 7 and level more weapons it should be fine. No matter how many battles I ran with 4/3 lights, it put me vs 6-8 heavies. This is what I'm doing at the moment. I'm playing with the same light and medium hangar over and over. A few of the weapons are 8 but most lag behind. It will take some time, but based on what I'm fighting against now, matches should be fair when my bot and weapons levels catch up to about 8. I don't have a problem fighting people with bot and weapon levels 1-2 levels above mine. Having sense and some battlefield awareness is a greater advantage than 2 weapon levels. Also, squadding - I find games much easier to win if I squad with another. You plan who goes where and does what, it's hard to beat that even if you're higher in levels.
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Post by zman on Jan 23, 2017 8:36:19 GMT -5
I still find myself playing with/against Full Maxed players, it sucks hard for me and my level 6 bots with level 9 weapons; I can barelly maintain a 50% winrate(not atributed to me tho) And look at this guy now: Yeah you are seeing it right, 88% winrate. What gives? Just because he is maxed out? Why should he play with me and my 50%, oh what is because someone needs to carry my win(he was in my team)? And no he wasn't squadding, and it's needless to say that he took 1st place and we ended spawn-raiding the enemy team while the game ended in less then 5 minutes. This reality people. Live with it if you're ok with this kind of clubbing or move on if you've had enough. I for myself will not tolerate this new kind of clubbing and will leave in about a week if things stay like they're now! Either his Elo hadn't been set yet and he was just getting rated, or he previously ranked his winrate and was clubbing his way back up. If is the former a few more games by him and he should be out of your pool. If the latter, it'll takes Pix fixing repeat leavers abandoning games, which they've acknowledged as a problem. I'm a Mich stronger Hanger than you and rarely see anyone that strong anymore, so the MM is working and quieting down up top and works it's way from the top down.
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Post by boomsplat on Jan 23, 2017 9:36:20 GMT -5
I still find myself playing with/against Full Maxed players, it sucks hard for me and my level 6 bots with level 9 weapons; I can barelly maintain a 50% winrate(not atributed to me tho) Yeah you are seeing it right, 88% winrate. What gives? Just because he is maxed out? Why should he play with me and my 50%, oh what is because someone needs to carry my win(he was in my team)? And no he wasn't squadding, and it's needless to say that he took 1st place and we ended spawn-raiding the enemy team while the game ended in less then 5 minutes. This reality people. Live with it if you're ok with this kind of clubbing or move on if you've had enough. I for myself will not tolerate this new kind of clubbing and will leave in about a week if things stay like they're now! I'm in the same boat as you - stuck in this weird middle ground in the MM with a 6/9 heavy line up that used to be lo gold. I'll run into a streak of games where I see the same thing...a 12/12 player either on red or blue or both - they dominate the game, taking top honors and outscoring everyone 2 to 1. I can get second or third place sometimes. But then I will have a series of matches that are balanced and competitive. And it doesn't seem like it has anything to do with win rate as I will experience these games while in the 60% win rate area or in the 40% win rate area. And then back to some 12/12 players or a squad of 12/12 players dropping into games, getting crushed. I understand that maybe those players are establishing their Elo scores so they are playing their way up into their own brackets....just passing through and laying waste to us lvl 9 wep types. So I guess maybe this is the experience of the future and/or the system has to sort itself out from the top down. The glimpses of the balanced and competitive matches are good but the inconsistency is maddening. I am trying to grit my teeth and play through the crap matches and keep moving bot levels up to match wep levels.
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Post by zman on Jan 23, 2017 9:44:40 GMT -5
I still find myself playing with/against Full Maxed players, it sucks hard for me and my level 6 bots with level 9 weapons; I can barelly maintain a 50% winrate(not atributed to me tho) Yeah you are seeing it right, 88% winrate. What gives? Just because he is maxed out? Why should he play with me and my 50%, oh what is because someone needs to carry my win(he was in my team)? And no he wasn't squadding, and it's needless to say that he took 1st place and we ended spawn-raiding the enemy team while the game ended in less then 5 minutes. This reality people. Live with it if you're ok with this kind of clubbing or move on if you've had enough. I for myself will not tolerate this new kind of clubbing and will leave in about a week if things stay like they're now! I'm in the same boat as you - stuck in this weird middle ground in the MM with a 6/9 heavy line up that used to be lo gold. I'll run into a streak of games where I see the same thing...a 12/12 player either on red or blue or both - they dominate the game, taking top honors and outscoring everyone 2 to 1. I can get second or third place sometimes. But then I will have a series of matches that are balanced and competitive. And it doesn't seem like it has anything to do with win rate as I will experience these games while in the 60% win rate area or in the 40% win rate area. And then back to some 12/12 players or a squad of 12/12 players dropping into games, getting crushed. I understand that maybe those players are establishing their Elo scores so they are playing their way up into their own brackets....just passing through and laying waste to us lvl 9 wep types. So I guess maybe this is the experience of the future and/or the system has to sort itself out from the top down. The glimpses of the balanced and competitive matches are good but the inconsistency is maddening. I am trying to grit my teeth and play through the crap matches and keep moving bot levels up to match wep levels. I've had those same experiences up in what was High Gold, but since I'm closer to the top it is leveling out and evening out faster. If it keeps doing what I expect it to do it will continue to get better and better, but never be as bad as it had been again. The hard part was the conversion process, each new player that starts the games and climbs the ranks will never see it, they'll always seem to have good matches, not big shelfs like the old MM, remember when you bought your first heavy and then all of a sudden you were getting the crap beat out of you on Yamatau and could take top three to save your life. The new MM should continue to stabilize, I mean how many people still haven't logged on and played a dozen games or more yet? Then the only problem is the strong guys that intentionally tank their win rates and drop games just get easier competition to club. At least Pix acknowledged this problem and said they are looking into fixes. Actually, where I am right now at 9/9.5 my matches are having more trouble with people dropping the match than TT guys playing in my matches. I rarely ever get more than one TT guy on each team anymore, and a lot of the time there aren't any 12/12 guys.
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Post by SlowReflexes on Jan 23, 2017 10:59:18 GMT -5
Looks like the new MM was rolled out on Android this morning.
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funyun
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Post by funyun on Jan 23, 2017 11:55:02 GMT -5
Looks like the new MM was rolled out on Android this morning. Yep, played two matches with lvl 1-3 bots and got lvl 10-12 bots thrown at me. Zero desire the play this.
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Post by Fιεχροιητ™ on Jan 23, 2017 11:56:22 GMT -5
Looks like the new MM was rolled out on Android this morning. Yep, played two matches with lvl 1-3 bots and got lvl 10-12 bots thrown at me. Zero desire the play this. I was informed on how the tier system currently works. Basically, the more games you play, the better the matchmaking system will be for you.
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Post by zman on Jan 23, 2017 12:35:28 GMT -5
Looks like the new MM was rolled out on Android this morning. Yep, played two matches with lvl 1-3 bots and got lvl 10-12 bots thrown at me. Zero desire the play this. You've got 1-2 days of it being absolutely nuts. Then 1-5 days of it getting progressively better. The way this king of system works is it sorts from the top down and doesn't quiet down until most of the active players have played a couple dozen games over a number of days. Basically everyone starts out at a Default Elo which enough to overpower the hanger portion of the equation. So, someone who plays a number of games and establishes their Elo will keep drawing stronger hangers who have yet to establish their Elo. Essentially Low/Mid strength hangers with players who play enough to establish their Elo are the proverbial whipping boys who are sorting all the stronger players upwards. The system then settles from the top down. On IOS I had a half dozen really screwy games, then it got progressively better, and over the next couple of days I stopped seeing as weak and as strong players. Now at 9/9.5 I really never see anyone weaker than 8/8, and the frequency of those 12/12 guys is way down. Most of my games are balanced from team to team and are getting much better as far as hanger strengths balanced with skill. For me people dropping and throwing matches is a bigger problem than the MM right now. My win percentage stabilized at 56-58% and hasn't fluctuated out of 54-60% in the last three days now. Play a couple of games each day over the next couple of days and it will settle down, but you are going to be in the spot that sees the worst of it. People with low/mid hangers who play a lot take the brunt of this new system until it settles down, which it will.
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funyun
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Post by funyun on Jan 23, 2017 12:35:55 GMT -5
Yep, played two matches with lvl 1-3 bots and got lvl 10-12 bots thrown at me. Zero desire the play this. I was informed on how the tier system currently works. Basically, the more games you play, the better the matchmaking system will be for you. So how far does my win rate need to tank to not find myself fighting Lancelots in my lvl 1 Golem?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2017 12:42:28 GMT -5
Yep, played two matches with lvl 1-3 bots and got lvl 10-12 bots thrown at me. Zero desire the play this. I was informed on how the tier system currently works. Basically, the more games you play, the better the matchmaking system will be for you. I just played my first game under the new MM where I had 2 1/4 guys on my side who were around level 16 and averaging 70k damage vs opponents that included a 9/8 Galahad. The little guys dropped after the first exchange of fire and the battle was a cakewalk for the enemy. How exactly is this match helpful or meaningful in any way? The outcome was 100 % predictable just looking at the hangars. The fact that half the blue side dropped within 2 mins provided little in the way of meaningful data on pilot skill and it just ends up being an exercise in frustration for anyone who put eftort in on the blue side. Playing more games (which is pretty much the universal answer given) isn't appealing if the games are 「dookie」. It sure seems like the players are paying the price for Pix's lazy implementation of the non-hangar part of the new rating system.
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