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Post by ogpondskum on Jan 19, 2017 14:19:27 GMT -5
On the Android side, I've got three Galahads 7/10 and two Rhinos 6/9. I see that I'm up against heaver bots but they don't have full hangers. I see a lot of 10/10 thee bot hangers and some 9/9 four bot hangers. I did not see this prior to the supposed MM changes. For fun, I started an iOS profile. As a level three newb, with three slots, I was surprised to be put against level 10 3/6 bots with three slot hangers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 14:21:26 GMT -5
I agree with tricky48, the games I have played today after the update do not seem any different for me. I never actually know my tier (high bronze or low silver), but level 4 BOA/BOA/Golem/Rog/Vitz with mostly level 7 weapons is still giving me the same level 20-30 opposition, mostly facing other medium bots, lesser equipped heavies, and the occasional 2-3 WSP or britbots thrown in.
I have a Galahad4, 2 Leo6s, and 3 Griffin6s on the bench, and am almost able to buy my first Rhino, so I am ready to throw my "best" hangar out there if I start facing max hangars, but for now, Android seems unchanged.
Cheers.
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debasir
Destrier
Old-timer
Posts: 25
Karma: 20
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Post by debasir on Jan 19, 2017 15:21:26 GMT -5
Gear will be less relevant than skill now. Been a lot of pilots relying on gear instead of learning skills. They are going to have to pay their dues. On the flip side, seen good pilots with bad winning percentage. That should get corrected too.
I have seen good clubber pilots hold their own against maxed players. Some maps are better than others.
The drunk won't keep a 50% win rate unless they are a good pilot. Cannon fodder will still be cannon fodder.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 15:41:23 GMT -5
I often play drunk. Like with dancing or singing, a few beers will do wonders for your internal evaluation of your skill level.
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WorstAimEver
GI. Patton
Posts: 134
Karma: 74
Platform: iOS
Clan: Ancient Warriors
League: Champion
Favorite robot: Bulgasari
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Post by WorstAimEver on Jan 19, 2017 15:54:35 GMT -5
Android will feel the effects soon enough. iOS though, there really is no point in upgrading past level 1/1 for bot/weapon anymore.
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zero
Recruit
Posts: 8
Karma: 2
Pilot name: Zerozero
Platform: iOS
Clan: HaMr
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Post by zero on Jan 19, 2017 16:30:28 GMT -5
Man... On one hand, I observe and comprehend the animosity towards "clubbers", while I disagree with the practice for personal motivations/goals for play, I do not hold it against them. They have been deliberate and adaptive in their efforts to achieve that which they value, based on the previous game perimeters. From a behavioral standpoint, those same persons, will eventually adapt to the new system and causality will occur once again. Perhaps not as bad, but is the dynamic inherent to PEOPLE. Furthermore, as much as the anticlubbers want to take umbrage in their construct of fair play, the same behavioral impetus resides within them as well; as evidenced here in the forums with the glee in "come-uppance" comments. With that being said, just remember Pix runs this game, not for your enjoyment or actualization or even to be "fair". In that last instance, exactly the opposite and the new MM is in effort towards their primary goal: revenue. I have a pretty good idea what the prospectus looked like for Mail.ru when they bought Pix. Also, If you've ever read any interviews of the current CEO, you know he's good at what he does and that is growing business and maximizing ROI. One of the main driving dynamics of monetizing F2P games is advantaging the drive to win. With the old system, some players spent a little, got to a place where they won at a sufficient level to be comfortable, or attain actualization of effort. A player was able to sequester at a level of competition where they no longer needed to spend money to tickle the hind brain. With the new system designed ESPECIALLY to never allow this level of satisfaction to ever be attained again, most players will be driven towards micro transactions as a supplement. In the end, Pix knows that the greatest majority of their player base (~96%) are ultimately, fundamentally irrelevant to their (Pix's) goal of montization and revenue and do not much care. They are, however, very much interested in gisting/identifying and hooking, those ~4% of players who will result in 70-80% of their earnings, and ultimately prod these whales to spend, spend, SPEND!!!! We are moving towards the status of many free games of having to pay to play, and soon, win. www.tnellen.com/westside/harrison.pdfelectronics.howstuffworks.com/free-to-play-games-make-money.htmwww.psychologyofgames.com/2015/08/when-the-pay-to-win-button-backfires/www.pokerology.com/lessons/understanding-tilt/www.slideshare.net/mobile/emily_greer/dont-call-them-whales-freetoplay-spenders-virtual-value-gdc-2015Is this you WE034?
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Post by WE034 on Jan 19, 2017 16:48:11 GMT -5
Man... On one hand, I observe and comprehend the animosity towards "clubbers", while I disagree with the practice for personal motivations/goals for play, I do not hold it against them. They have been deliberate and adaptive in their efforts to achieve that which they value, based on the previous game perimeters. From a behavioral standpoint, those same persons, will eventually adapt to the new system and causality will occur once again. Perhaps not as bad, but is the dynamic inherent to PEOPLE. Furthermore, as much as the anticlubbers want to take umbrage in their construct of fair play, the same behavioral impetus resides within them as well; as evidenced here in the forums with the glee in "come-uppance" comments. With that being said, just remember Pix runs this game, not for your enjoyment or actualization or even to be "fair". In that last instance, exactly the opposite and the new MM is in effort towards their primary goal: revenue. I have a pretty good idea what the prospectus looked like for Mail.ru when they bought Pix. Also, If you've ever read any interviews of the current CEO, you know he's good at what he does and that is growing business and maximizing ROI. One of the main driving dynamics of monetizing F2P games is advantaging the drive to win. With the old system, some players spent a little, got to a place where they won at a sufficient level to be comfortable, or attain actualization of effort. A player was able to sequester at a level of competition where they no longer needed to spend money to tickle the hind brain. With the new system designed ESPECIALLY to never allow this level of satisfaction to ever be attained again, most players will be driven towards micro transactions as a supplement. In the end, Pix knows that the greatest majority of their player base (~96%) are ultimately, fundamentally irrelevant to their (Pix's) goal of montization and revenue and do not much care. They are, however, very much interested in gisting/identifying and hooking, those ~4% of players who will result in 70-80% of their earnings, and ultimately prod these whales to spend, spend, SPEND!!!! We are moving towards the status of many free games of having to pay to play, and soon, win. www.tnellen.com/westside/harrison.pdfelectronics.howstuffworks.com/free-to-play-games-make-money.htmwww.psychologyofgames.com/2015/08/when-the-pay-to-win-button-backfires/www.pokerology.com/lessons/understanding-tilt/www.slideshare.net/mobile/emily_greer/dont-call-them-whales-freetoplay-spenders-virtual-value-gdc-2015Is this you WE034? Yes that's me
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Post by silverstone21 on Jan 19, 2017 17:11:01 GMT -5
Well i notice a small change on my scores. Since i was 9 out 10 times best player on my team. Now i would say 5/10 times.
I dont think this system is good cause if u win alot u get matched up with impossible competition (unless u have all max out or close).
But the other mode wasnt flawless too, cause it allowed to put players taking advantage in what tier they were. For example for the bronxe and low silver with alots of low level geps but with high level weapons i can i see its frustating for new players and players who have weak bots.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 17:25:25 GMT -5
The drunk won't keep a 50% win rate unless they are a good pilot. Cannon fodder will still be cannon fodder. Really? I think a drunk could hit 50%.. In fact, I think, that entering a match with a 1/5 ECU Cossack, grabbing a single beacon and literally doing nothing else before leaving for say, 100 matches (goes fairly quick actually) can result in, oh, I dunno, a 40% win rate. A 50% win rate is a participation trophy..
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Post by blastronaut on Jan 19, 2017 17:44:39 GMT -5
It's like the iOs players are talking about the end of the world and the Android players doesn't know anything. Like, it hasn't hit here and I have no idea why most are reacting so big. True at least for me. I have not noticed any difference. if anything, i am being put with competent piolets and wining most battles. It seems to affect me for the better. Same with me. I run a 4/8 hangar with two golems, a vitz and a gepard and my teammates have been better and damage/win rates have gone up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2017 17:49:52 GMT -5
Damage will go up on Android, since most bots have more HP now, so more damage available out there to grab. If the MM changes have hit Android, I would be surprised, as my matches remain unchanged. If this is the new MM, then great, b/c it treats me the exact same as the old MM.
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phoenix232
GI. Patton
Posts: 132
Karma: 74
Pilot name: Phoenix-232
League: Diamond
Server Region: North America
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Post by phoenix232 on Jan 19, 2017 17:52:25 GMT -5
Damage will go up on Android, since most bots have more HP now, so more damage available out there to grab. If the MM changes have hit Android, I would be surprised, as my matches remain unchanged. If this is the new MM, then great, b/c it treats me the exact same as the old MM. That accounts for my higher damage numbers. Good point!
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debasir
Destrier
Old-timer
Posts: 25
Karma: 20
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Post by debasir on Jan 19, 2017 23:21:55 GMT -5
The drunk won't keep a 50% win rate unless they are a good pilot. Cannon fodder will still be cannon fodder.Really? I think a drunk could hit 50%.. In fact, I think, that entering a match with a 1/5 ECU Cossack, grabbing a single beacon and literally doing nothing else before leaving for say, 100 matches (goes fairly quick actually) can result in, oh, I dunno, a 40% win rate. A 50% win rate is a participation trophy.. Looks like you are deliberately trying to tank your stats to try to scam the MM. Good luck with that.
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Post by SATmaster728 on Jan 20, 2017 7:35:54 GMT -5
Hopefully being put with and against good pilots will force people to learn more when they lose, and there are less idiots with norticum zenit natashas
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eyedoc
Recruit
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Post by eyedoc on Jan 20, 2017 8:55:06 GMT -5
Doesn't matter what you are... eventually you will get to 50% and you will stay there until you have a maxed hanger. You will either get bored with the game before you get there, or you will spend real money to get there. The latter is what Pix is hoping for.
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raine
Recruit
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Karma: 7
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Post by raine on Jan 20, 2017 9:15:42 GMT -5
well, i'm not one to shout doom and gloom but...
i just started playing again after christmas. (iOS) i had taken a few months off, and was really enjoying being back. i even got suckered into buying some snowflakes, but thats ok, i dont mind supporting games i play. but this is MM change is rediculous. my level 1 and 2 light bots are facing nothing under level 7, bots or weapons, with no upper limit. i read that it might settle down after a few games, so kept playing. but after 10 more games it still really sucks.
what exactly is supposed to be proven when i face a hanger full of 11/12 heavy bots with my 2/5 and 1/6 lights? am i supposed to stay and watch the rest of the game when i'm dead within 2 minutes? i was 1 shot twice by trebs, and i was instantly killed many times with rocket barrages. my weapons seemed completely ineffective, and nothing would die if i managed to get the drop on it.
playing right now is pointless. i got 5 gold total in those 10 games, by capping beacons. woohoo.
bottom line, this is not fun, i'm not playing. maybe i'll be back in a few more months and see where things are at. sad thing is, i wonder how many others are in my same boat? i fear for the game that its lots.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jan 20, 2017 9:27:11 GMT -5
well, i'm not one to shout doom and gloom but... i just started playing again after christmas. (iOS) i had taken a few months off, and was really enjoying being back. i even got suckered into buying some snowflakes, but thats ok, i dont mind supporting games i play. but this is MM change is rediculous. my level 1 and 2 light bots are facing nothing under level 7, bots or weapons, with no upper limit. i read that it might settle down after a few games, so kept playing. but after 10 more games it still really sucks. what exactly is supposed to be proven when i face a hanger full of 11/12 heavy bots with my 2/5 and 1/6 lights? am i supposed to stay and watch the rest of the game when i'm dead within 2 minutes? i was 1 shot twice by trebs, and i was instantly killed many times with rocket barrages. my weapons seemed completely ineffective, and nothing would die if i managed to get the drop on it. playing right now is pointless. i got 5 gold total in those 10 games, by capping beacons. woohoo. bottom line, this is not fun, i'm not playing. maybe i'll be back in a few more months and see where things are at. sad thing is, i wonder how many others are in my same boat? i fear for the game that its lots. The thing is... it takes upwards of 50 matches to settle out... I hate that Pix didnt release some info for us on this, but don't fret... just play for a while, think of it as a grind to get to where you can grind. again... this is so jacked because the ELO system goes by STATS. When it was implemented, everyone started from the same exact stat average of 0. You have to play to give it something to work with, and it doesn't change after just one loss... it can take 10 or more to make even a small adjustment. Just, think of this as the break in period... right now, its not just you that is trying to find your place, but everyone. And the system itself is new, too. Give it time. 10 matches isn't enough to determine anything in these type ranking systems.
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Post by lephturn on Jan 20, 2017 9:57:45 GMT -5
Personally and from others in this thread and others on the board, it seems that the days of much higher weapon levels like 2/8 are over. It looks to me like you can have 6/8 or 7/8 or even 9/8 and get the same matchups. Guys that say they are having good matchups and close battles are those with bot levels very close to weapon levels.
Overall this is a good thing - a 1/12 Gepard getting put in with 4/5 Cossacks and Destriers was a clubbing disaster and was absolutely not good for new players and the game.
What I have not figured out yet is if I can run something like my shiny new Gareth without it pushing me up. Anyone see evidence of shield bots pushing you up - or not pushing you up?
Now the other thing that I am starting to understand is that the better matched teams can be frustrating. Here is why:
1. Old MM, you balance a hangar like 2/6 Geps with 2/6 Cossack and maybe a 1/4 medium or two. You face similar equipment for the most part, and if you are good your superior skill means that YOU are the key to winning or losing the game. Very high win rates are possible because effectively team net skill levels combined with hangar optimization and using OP weapons (tri-mag geps 2/10 for example) means that one good player can massively increase the chances of winning for his team.
2. New MM, your higher tier weapons bump you up and your high win rate bumps you up. New MM does a better job of balancing the net skill of both teams for closer battles BUT - as a good player the net effect you can have on the battle is MIUCH LOWER. It's not all down to you anymore. Your 3/9 Geps are now matched with 9/8 heavies which splash you into a grease stain if they look at you. You can still contribute, you can still improve the chances that your team wins, but your net effect on the team's chances to win is lower. This means that as a good player your win rate WILL GO DOWN. That probably won't feel good.
For the long term health of the game and the community this HAD TO HAPPEN. It still feels bad as the good player used to running 80% + but the old way is not sustainable. I joined the game and within about 5 days had figured out (with the help of this community and getting smashed by clubbers) that the way to win was to buy me three Gepards and load them up with Aphids, Magnums, and Pinatas. I had a Cossack that I pretty quickly got a Taran for and by week 2 I was running 85% win rate. Mostly smashing clueless new players into goo with my over-leveled weapons. That friends is a problem. How many potential new players were driven away after getting smashed 3 times in a row by Gep clubbers? When it happened to me I just looked at their hangers and then went and got what they smashed me with, but I'm betting most casual players just felt it was unfair and quit.
The adjustment is going to be hard for the tiny minority of us who are used to winning 70%+. A good balanced MM and game, especially if it takes skill into account, is going move everyone closer to 50%. I come from World of Tanks Blitz - it's much more balanced and you can't club in the same way, and a 60%+ winrate is extremely rare. Less than 2% of the players hit that. The reality may be that only a tiny % of players will crack 60% War Robots with this new MM, and the adjustment might be difficult but for the long term health of the game it's important.
Lephturn
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 10:39:06 GMT -5
I think a drunk could hit 50%.. In fact, I think, that entering a match with a 1/5 ECU Cossack, grabbing a single beacon and literally doing nothing else before leaving for say, 100 matches (goes fairly quick actually) can result in, oh, I dunno, a 40% win rate. A 50% win rate is a participation trophy.. Looks like you are deliberately trying to tank your stats to try to scam the MM. Good luck with that. That's not it. That's not it at all. If I were trying to cheat why on earth would I post it here? If I were I wouldn’t post my zeroed out hangar. I’d post my glorious wins afterwards and lie about my mad skillz. That's just a very stupid assumption. You’re just pushing your own biases upon another and it's a fail. What this is, in fact, is an experiment. There's been a great deal of discussion that has hinged upon the win %. There's a lot of people that believe that a 50% win rate is indicative of greater competition. That having a win rate hovering around 50%, let's say 45% to 55%, inherently means that those people are facing more challenging competition. We also always have to remember that these are not solo matches. On top of that someone who squads, or takes that to the next level and squads with dedicated clan members has effectively padded their wins over a pure pugger. This is really not up for debate, because people advise others all the time on these forums that in order to avoid, or decrease the challenges around PUGs they should squad, or join a clan. The point being is that there are factors even within the grouping that will raise, or lower that rate that are outside of skill. The only way to determine if there's any actual truth to that claim that 50% is a marker for competitive matches is to test it. I'm making the general assumption is that everyone is trying to win. Therefore everyone's current values are based upon effort. That raised a question for me, what happens when one doesn't try to win? What does the MM do then and what happens to that win %? What is the base, considering that I'm not in the matches solo? I started this experiment with 430k+ damage 5.2 bots destroyed with a win rate of 88%. I logged into 50 matches and used an ECU Cossack to collect one beacon and log out. I did that just to show some minor, but meaningless activity to the system. At 50 matches with effectively 0 effort I had 0 damage and 0 bots destroyed. At that point I had a 52% win rate. I then decided to go for another 50 matches. I’m now down to a 40% win rate with 0 effort across 100 matches. So, what does a 50% win rate really mean? Does it mean I'll experience a fairer and more competitive game? Not at all. Now if I consider the new MM where the goal is to force non-gold tier players towards that 50% rate does my experience lead me to believe that those matches would be somehow fairer and more competitive? Nope. What they mean is that someone who simply participates that has very little influence on the outcome of a match will get their participation trophy. This is important to Pix. People who suck at the game. People who will never be that good and that will never take the time to be good will be able to play, look at their win rate and say to themselves, "I'm hanging with the big boys!" Those people will never know that they suck. Instead they'll see bots, or weapons that look really cool, see how long it would take to grind them out, look at the cost of buying some Au, and say to themselves, "Why not spend some cash? I can already hang with the big boys." For Pix that's a far better financial outcome than having sucky players get pounded on for sucking and quit. I don’t believe for a minute that this change is being done in the spirit of fair. There’s literally nothing fair about a 50% win rate in this game, because it takes so very little to obtain. If you want to prove me wrong you first have to 0 yourself out and see what you're win rate is. Based on my experience a 70% win rate in the old MM just means you are effectively providing a 20%, at best, improvement to your team’s chance of winning in an actual balanced match. What it never meant is that you are better than 70% of the people. If you were hovering around 50%, well, you're an average player, at best. With the new MM that win rate becomes even more meaningless. It's just a participation trophy. Nothing more and nothing less. If you don't like that assessment, prove me wrong. Just remember, you have to start at a baseline of 0 effort in order to determine what the difference the effort actually makes. I intend to do this again in the new MM to see if I still hit what many consider a functional win rate. Doing so is not cheating. This is just a game to me. I apparently don’t put anywhere near as much stock into it as you. With that in mind I don’t care what happens to my win rate, or anything else here. I can walk away at any time and it just doesn’t matter. I’m still having fun with it and these kind of debates are mildly interesting. Let’s not kid ourselves though. In 5 years most of us will be gone and this game might only come up in the occasional nostalgic conversation about games in general. It doesn't matter enough to start insulting people unprovoked (I didn't attack you, so why attack me? Are you just an ?poo place??). Edited to take out some silly spacing that occured when I submitted the post.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Jan 20, 2017 10:43:16 GMT -5
Just checking in to see if the sky is still falling....
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jan 20, 2017 10:59:36 GMT -5
Just checking in to see if the sky is still falling.... Oh, it is, in little apple and panda bear shaped pieces. Us little green droids are looking up at a blue, clear sky, however.
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Post by 『 Dᴇᴀᴛʜ 』 on Jan 20, 2017 11:09:16 GMT -5
Looks like you are deliberately trying to tank your stats to try to scam the MM. Good luck with that. That's not it. That's not it at all. If I were trying to cheat why on earth would I post it here? If I were I wouldn’t post my zeroed out hangar. I’d post my glorious wins afterwards and lie about my mad skillz. That's just a very stupid assumption. You’re just pushing your own biases upon another and it's a fail. What this is, in fact, is an experiment. There's been a great deal of discussion that has hinged upon the win %. There's a lot of people that believe that a 50% win rate is indicative of greater competition. That having a win rate hovering around 50%, let's say 45% to 55%, inherently means that those people are facing more challenging competition. We also always have to remember that these are not solo matches. On top of that someone who squads, or takes that to the next level and squads with dedicated clan members has effectively padded their wins over a pure pugger. This is really not up for debate, because people advise others all the time on these forums that in order to avoid, or decrease the challenges around PUGs they should squad, or join a clan. The point being is that there are factors even within the grouping that will raise, or lower that rate that are outside of skill. The only way to determine if there's any actual truth to that claim that 50% is a marker for competitive matches is to test it. I'm making the general assumption is that everyone is trying to win. Therefore everyone's current values are based upon effort. That raised a question for me, what happens when one doesn't try to win? What does the MM do then and what happens to that win %? What is the base, considering that I'm not in the matches solo? I started this experiment with 430k+ damage 5.2 bots destroyed with a win rate of 88%. I logged into 50 matches and used an ECU Cossack to collect one beacon and log out. I did that just to show some minor, but meaningless activity to the system. At 50 matches with effectively 0 effort I had 0 damage and 0 bots destroyed. At that point I had a 52% win rate. I then decided to go for another 50 matches. I’m now down to a 40% win rate with 0 effort across 100 matches. So, what does a 50% win rate really mean? Does it mean I'll experience a fairer and more competitive game? Not at all. Now if I consider the new MM where the goal is to force non-gold tier players towards that 50% rate does my experience lead me to believe that those matches would be somehow fairer and more competitive? Nope. What they mean is that someone who simply participates that has very little influence on the outcome of a match will get their participation trophy. This is important to Pix. People who suck at the game. People who will never be that good and that will never take the time to be good will be able to play, look at their win rate and say to themselves, "I'm hanging with the big boys!" Those people will never know that they suck. Instead they'll see bots, or weapons that look really cool, see how long it would take to grind them out, look at the cost of buying some Au, and say to themselves, "Why not spend some cash? I can already hang with the big boys." For Pix that's a far better financial outcome than having sucky players get pounded on for sucking and quit. I don’t believe for a minute that this change is being done in the spirit of fair. There’s literally nothing fair about a 50% win rate in this game, because it takes so very little to obtain. If you want to prove me wrong you first have to 0 yourself out and see what you're win rate is. Based on my experience a 70% win rate in the old MM just means you are effectively providing a 20%, at best, improvement to your team’s chance of winning in an actual balanced match. What it never meant is that you are better than 70% of the people. If you were hovering around 50%, well, you're an average player, at best. With the new MM that win rate becomes even more meaningless. It's just a participation trophy. Nothing more and nothing less. If you don't like that assessment, prove me wrong. Just remember, you have to start at a baseline of 0 effort in order to determine what the difference the effort actually makes. I intend to do this again in the new MM to see if I still hit what many consider a functional win rate. Doing so is not cheating. This is just a game to me. I apparently don’t put anywhere near as much stock into it as you. With that in mind I don’t care what happens to my win rate, or anything else here. I can walk away at any time and it just doesn’t matter. I’m still having fun with it and these kind of debates are mildly interesting. Let’s not kid ourselves though. In 5 years most of us will be gone and this game might only come up in the occasional nostalgic conversation about games in general. It doesn't matter enough to start insulting people unprovoked (I didn't attack you, so why attack me? Are you just an ?poo place??). Edited to take out some silly spacing that occured when I submitted the post. Absolutely true. In the games I won so far, I wasn't needed to participate to gain that win but in those one that I did lose, I could have done 2mill damage and still wouldn't win. So that means my actuall influenc was rather unnoticable... That just ruins my game expirence and if this continues I will quit. On the other hand the old MM did pair me with 9/9 occassionaly (I have 6/9 bots) but that didn't matter, in the contrary it gave the game a rather good balance which resultet in matches that were FOUGHT until the last second. Pixonic finally got their right amount of players and now the true face of "F2P" is showing. Mark my words this is just the beginning, more "suprises" are going to come soon...
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Post by zman on Jan 20, 2017 11:12:23 GMT -5
Looks like you are deliberately trying to tank your stats to try to scam the MM. Good luck with that. That's not it. That's not it at all. If I were trying to cheat why on earth would I post it here? If I were I wouldn’t post my zeroed out hangar. I’d post my glorious wins afterwards and lie about my mad skillz. That's just a very stupid assumption. You’re just pushing your own biases upon another and it's a fail. What this is, in fact, is an experiment. There's been a great deal of discussion that has hinged upon the win %. There's a lot of people that believe that a 50% win rate is indicative of greater competition. That having a win rate hovering around 50%, let's say 45% to 55%, inherently means that those people are facing more challenging competition. We also always have to remember that these are not solo matches. On top of that someone who squads, or takes that to the next level and squads with dedicated clan members has effectively padded their wins over a pure pugger. This is really not up for debate, because people advise others all the time on these forums that in order to avoid, or decrease the challenges around PUGs they should squad, or join a clan. The point being is that there are factors even within the grouping that will raise, or lower that rate that are outside of skill. The only way to determine if there's any actual truth to that claim that 50% is a marker for competitive matches is to test it. I'm making the general assumption is that everyone is trying to win. Therefore everyone's current values are based upon effort. That raised a question for me, what happens when one doesn't try to win? What does the MM do then and what happens to that win %? What is the base, considering that I'm not in the matches solo? I started this experiment with 430k+ damage 5.2 bots destroyed with a win rate of 88%. I logged into 50 matches and used an ECU Cossack to collect one beacon and log out. I did that just to show some minor, but meaningless activity to the system. At 50 matches with effectively 0 effort I had 0 damage and 0 bots destroyed. At that point I had a 52% win rate. I then decided to go for another 50 matches. I’m now down to a 40% win rate with 0 effort across 100 matches. So, what does a 50% win rate really mean? Does it mean I'll experience a fairer and more competitive game? Not at all. Now if I consider the new MM where the goal is to force non-gold tier players towards that 50% rate does my experience lead me to believe that those matches would be somehow fairer and more competitive? Nope. What they mean is that someone who simply participates that has very little influence on the outcome of a match will get their participation trophy. This is important to Pix. People who suck at the game. People who will never be that good and that will never take the time to be good will be able to play, look at their win rate and say to themselves, "I'm hanging with the big boys!" Those people will never know that they suck. Instead they'll see bots, or weapons that look really cool, see how long it would take to grind them out, look at the cost of buying some Au, and say to themselves, "Why not spend some cash? I can already hang with the big boys." For Pix that's a far better financial outcome than having sucky players get pounded on for sucking and quit. I don’t believe for a minute that this change is being done in the spirit of fair. There’s literally nothing fair about a 50% win rate in this game, because it takes so very little to obtain. If you want to prove me wrong you first have to 0 yourself out and see what you're win rate is. Based on my experience a 70% win rate in the old MM just means you are effectively providing a 20%, at best, improvement to your team’s chance of winning in an actual balanced match. What it never meant is that you are better than 70% of the people. If you were hovering around 50%, well, you're an average player, at best. With the new MM that win rate becomes even more meaningless. It's just a participation trophy. Nothing more and nothing less. If you don't like that assessment, prove me wrong. Just remember, you have to start at a baseline of 0 effort in order to determine what the difference the effort actually makes. I intend to do this again in the new MM to see if I still hit what many consider a functional win rate. Doing so is not cheating. This is just a game to me. I apparently don’t put anywhere near as much stock into it as you. With that in mind I don’t care what happens to my win rate, or anything else here. I can walk away at any time and it just doesn’t matter. I’m still having fun with it and these kind of debates are mildly interesting. Let’s not kid ourselves though. In 5 years most of us will be gone and this game might only come up in the occasional nostalgic conversation about games in general. It doesn't matter enough to start insulting people unprovoked (I didn't attack you, so why attack me? Are you just an ?poo place??). Edited to take out some silly spacing that occured when I submitted the post. Ok, so by contributing nothing you've shown that in Bronze you literally don't have to do anything and will win 40% of matches... on the old MM since you are an Android player. Ok, while you are experimenting, care to please do the same thing in Silver or Gold. Just because that is he case in Bronze doesn't mean it is the case in higher tiers. In Bronze, it isn't hard for one competent player to literally carry a team to victory, in the higher tiers that is far less likely to be the case. Bet if you just bugged out of Silver or especially Gold/TT matches it would have a larger impact on winrate. The higher you go, the worse 5v6 gets. In Bronze, well it only takes one good player, clubber, or farmer to single handedly win the match.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 11:44:32 GMT -5
Ok, so by contributing nothing you've shown that in Bronze you literally don't have to do anything and will win 40% of matches... on the old MM since you are an Android player. Ok, while you are experimenting, care to please do the same thing in Silver or Gold. Just because that is he case in Bronze doesn't mean it is the case in higher tiers. In Bronze, it isn't hard for one competent player to literally carry a team to victory, in the higher tiers that is far less likely to be the case. Bet if you just bugged out of Silver or especially Gold/TT matches it would have a larger impact on winrate. The higher you go, the worse 5v6 gets. In Bronze, well it only takes one good player, clubber, or farmer to single handedly win the match. Oh, I see, you actually think the little bots in the screenshot were the bots I played with to get my wins. I just flipped to those during the tanking, because it didn't matter at the point what I had. I wasn't playing. I wanted to see how the competition changed during the zeroing out. It took quite a while for the MM to catch up and reflect both the lack of activity and the bots. Those aren't what I play with. I'm going to just call your whole post worthless now, because by all previous measures, the hangar I played with was a 4/8 medium hanger with an 88% to 98% win rate. That put me comfortably into silver. I usually faced 6/8 mediums and heavies and the only bots I rarely saw were Furys and Brits. Everything else was common.
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debasir
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Post by debasir on Jan 20, 2017 11:54:08 GMT -5
Looks like you are deliberately trying to tank your stats to try to scam the MM. Good luck with that. That's not it. That's not it at all. If I were trying to cheat why on earth would I post it here? If I were I wouldn’t post my zeroed out hangar. I’d post my glorious wins afterwards and lie about my mad skillz. That's just a very stupid assumption. You’re just pushing your own biases upon another and it's a fail. What this is, in fact, is an experiment. There's been a great deal of discussion that has hinged upon the win %. There's a lot of people that believe that a 50% win rate is indicative of greater competition. That having a win rate hovering around 50%, let's say 45% to 55%, inherently means that those people are facing more challenging competition. We also always have to remember that these are not solo matches. On top of that someone who squads, or takes that to the next level and squads with dedicated clan members has effectively padded their wins over a pure pugger. This is really not up for debate, because people advise others all the time on these forums that in order to avoid, or decrease the challenges around PUGs they should squad, or join a clan. The point being is that there are factors even within the grouping that will raise, or lower that rate that are outside of skill. The only way to determine if there's any actual truth to that claim that 50% is a marker for competitive matches is to test it. I'm making the general assumption is that everyone is trying to win. Therefore everyone's current values are based upon effort. That raised a question for me, what happens when one doesn't try to win? What does the MM do then and what happens to that win %? What is the base, considering that I'm not in the matches solo? I started this experiment with 430k+ damage 5.2 bots destroyed with a win rate of 88%. I logged into 50 matches and used an ECU Cossack to collect one beacon and log out. I did that just to show some minor, but meaningless activity to the system. At 50 matches with effectively 0 effort I had 0 damage and 0 bots destroyed. At that point I had a 52% win rate. I then decided to go for another 50 matches. I’m now down to a 40% win rate with 0 effort across 100 matches. So, what does a 50% win rate really mean? Does it mean I'll experience a fairer and more competitive game? Not at all. Now if I consider the new MM where the goal is to force non-gold tier players towards that 50% rate does my experience lead me to believe that those matches would be somehow fairer and more competitive? Nope. What they mean is that someone who simply participates that has very little influence on the outcome of a match will get their participation trophy. This is important to Pix. People who suck at the game. People who will never be that good and that will never take the time to be good will be able to play, look at their win rate and say to themselves, "I'm hanging with the big boys!" Those people will never know that they suck. Instead they'll see bots, or weapons that look really cool, see how long it would take to grind them out, look at the cost of buying some Au, and say to themselves, "Why not spend some cash? I can already hang with the big boys." For Pix that's a far better financial outcome than having sucky players get pounded on for sucking and quit. I don’t believe for a minute that this change is being done in the spirit of fair. There’s literally nothing fair about a 50% win rate in this game, because it takes so very little to obtain. If you want to prove me wrong you first have to 0 yourself out and see what you're win rate is. Based on my experience a 70% win rate in the old MM just means you are effectively providing a 20%, at best, improvement to your team’s chance of winning in an actual balanced match. What it never meant is that you are better than 70% of the people. If you were hovering around 50%, well, you're an average player, at best. With the new MM that win rate becomes even more meaningless. It's just a participation trophy. Nothing more and nothing less. If you don't like that assessment, prove me wrong. Just remember, you have to start at a baseline of 0 effort in order to determine what the difference the effort actually makes. I intend to do this again in the new MM to see if I still hit what many consider a functional win rate. Doing so is not cheating. This is just a game to me. I apparently don’t put anywhere near as much stock into it as you. With that in mind I don’t care what happens to my win rate, or anything else here. I can walk away at any time and it just doesn’t matter. I’m still having fun with it and these kind of debates are mildly interesting. Let’s not kid ourselves though. In 5 years most of us will be gone and this game might only come up in the occasional nostalgic conversation about games in general. It doesn't matter enough to start insulting people unprovoked (I didn't attack you, so why attack me? Are you just an ?poo place??). Edited to take out some silly spacing that occured when I submitted the post. How did I insult you? I made an observation and you confirmed that observation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 11:59:30 GMT -5
How did I insult you? I made an observation and you confirmed that observation. You said I was attempting to scam the system. I wasn't. Zeroing out to see how the system reacts is not the same, as trying to scam it. Trying to scam it assumes that I'm doing it to subsequently acquire easy wins. That's an insult to someone who has no intent on clubbing people by doing so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 12:01:24 GMT -5
I do want to note that there was something liberating about zeroing out. I went back in with those little bots and rather enjoyed what were very close matches for a bit. It only took a few wins before I was seeing 1/5+ mediums, but for a bit it was like I had just started again.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jan 20, 2017 12:22:53 GMT -5
Ok, so by contributing nothing you've shown that in Bronze you literally don't have to do anything and will win 40% of matches... on the old MM since you are an Android player. Ok, while you are experimenting, care to please do the same thing in Silver or Gold. Just because that is he case in Bronze doesn't mean it is the case in higher tiers. In Bronze, it isn't hard for one competent player to literally carry a team to victory, in the higher tiers that is far less likely to be the case. Bet if you just bugged out of Silver or especially Gold/TT matches it would have a larger impact on winrate. The higher you go, the worse 5v6 gets. In Bronze, well it only takes one good player, clubber, or farmer to single handedly win the match. Oh, I see, you actually think the little bots in the screenshot were the bots I played with to get my wins. I just flipped to those during the tanking, because it didn't matter at the point what I had. I wasn't playing. I wanted to see how the competition changed during the zeroing out. It took quite a while for the MM to catch up and reflect both the lack of activity and the bots. Those aren't what I play with. I'm going to just call your whole post worthless now, because by all previous measures, the hangar I played with was a 4/8 medium hanger with an 88% to 98% win rate. That put me comfortably into silver. I usually faced 6/8 mediums and heavies and the only bots I rarely saw were Furys and Brits. Everything else was common. Hold up! Wait... No. Not what he was saying at all... he meant the ones you were losing with. You had bronze level bots... and sat there and tanked in bronze. He was saying that the test of tanking to see how much a win% loss you took with those bots was no comparison to if someone did that with Gold level bots. What you used to get the wins isn't the point. You are saying that anyone can breathe and get a 50% in the old mm... but that is only true down low. *I am not making an assertion one way or another here, I don't know nor do I intend to worry about it since the new MM won't be based on the same parameters to GET that 50%... so I don't see why it matters.... but anyway, Just trying to explain what he was saying in a way that was more clear to you... Carry on with the plan of the day, ladies and gentlemen.
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Post by zman on Jan 20, 2017 12:34:30 GMT -5
Ok, so by contributing nothing you've shown that in Bronze you literally don't have to do anything and will win 40% of matches... on the old MM since you are an Android player. Ok, while you are experimenting, care to please do the same thing in Silver or Gold. Just because that is he case in Bronze doesn't mean it is the case in higher tiers. In Bronze, it isn't hard for one competent player to literally carry a team to victory, in the higher tiers that is far less likely to be the case. Bet if you just bugged out of Silver or especially Gold/TT matches it would have a larger impact on winrate. The higher you go, the worse 5v6 gets. In Bronze, well it only takes one good player, clubber, or farmer to single handedly win the match. Oh, I see, you actually think the little bots in the screenshot were the bots I played with to get my wins. I just flipped to those during the tanking, because it didn't matter at the point what I had. I wasn't playing. I wanted to see how the competition changed during the zeroing out. It took quite a while for the MM to catch up and reflect both the lack of activity and the bots. Those aren't what I play with. I'm going to just call your whole post worthless now, because by all previous measures, the hangar I played with was a 4/8 medium hanger with an 88% to 98% win rate. That put me comfortably into silver. I usually faced 6/8 mediums and heavies and the only bots I rarely saw were Furys and Brits. Everything else was common. Ahh, check yourself. You completely failed to understand what I wrote, jumped to conclusions, became a condescending 「bum-bum」, and wrote off my entire post. Firstly, why on earth would you think I assumed you use obvious test bots for play and wins. That is literally absurd and nothing I wrote suggests that is what I was basing my response on. You are still on Android, the MM that relies heavily on Hanger Strength was in play, you were using a Bronze Hanger, at Bronze levels it only takes one good player on a team to carry that team, so using Bronze as the place to zero out your stats tell us something very different than if your hanger was a Solid Silver or Gold or Top Tier Hanger. Had you performed this experiment with a stronger hanger, again contributing nothing to the battle, you'd find yourself with potentially very different data. In a competitive tier, one player not contributing is far more likely to be a death sentence than in Bronze where it only takes one good player to win the math. My best guess is that in Silver that winrate would have dipped a bit more, and in Gold even more, and in TT even more. There is just very good reason to take the results of this experiment performed in Bronze with a heaping grain of salt.
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Post by SATmaster728 on Jan 20, 2017 14:04:56 GMT -5
From a scientific standpoint, and the previous MM standpoint, it will take more then one try to get an accurate conclusion. You would need to multiple matches with the exact same things to even come close. If you think how long it took to figure the previous one out, it will take just as long for this one. Do at least 10 experiements with all bots and weapon to even try to make an argument. Otherwise you are trying to make an oponion based on ONE try.
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