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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 15:18:00 GMT -5
Most people dont seem to realize that a HUGE number of players bought $500-1000 worth of keys, spun them, got their dash bots and then asked Apple for a refund. And in nearly all cases I have heard, Apple gave them all the money back. That sucks ballz for them but somehow I don't feel all that bad for them either. They tried playing us good players by trying to game the system against us and got played themselves...HA! And now, they're going to "fix" the delivery mechanic because we were grumbling? Ha! Does not make me feel sympathetic for them at all. So not only are they losing a bunch of money but also a lot of player good will. Oh irony! Disagree with all of this. Pix wasn't "playing" you. You know the rules going in. Its entertainment that you pay for. You can choose to pay for it or not. |
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Post by shakingrabbit on Sept 15, 2017 15:36:20 GMT -5
That sucks ballz for them but somehow I don't feel all that bad for them either. They tried playing us good players by trying to game the system against us and got played themselves...HA! And now, they're going to "fix" the delivery mechanic because we were grumbling? Ha! Does not make me feel sympathetic for them at all. So not only are they losing a bunch of money but also a lot of player good will. Oh irony! Disagree with all of this. Pix wasn't "playing" you. You know the rules going in. Its entertainment that you pay for. You can choose to pay for it or not. Thats fine, we can disagree on this. |
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Sept 15, 2017 16:09:47 GMT -5
That's plain and simple fraud. A violation of implicit contractual agreement...Pix is in the business of selling non physical 1's and 0's...They have to take full advantage of the limited time to maximize a highly perishable digital privilege through artificially inducing scarcity in a thing that is infinitely reproducible. A paying player is actually renting access to digital non tangible content and is never the property of the buyer ever. If indeed players have full hangers of 12/12 Dash hangers hours after release by fraud refunding , this is out and out banable offenses. From what I understand, Apple will not release to outside companies who asked for and received refunds so it's basically impossible to trace, Pix just gets the refund notice from Apple and has to pay it back. From Apple's perspective it's probably the correct way to do business because of consumer confidentiality etc. And there is the blinking neon sign to exploit at will..."Confidentiality". The people who fraud refund know this policy well and use it with impunity. |
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Post by ᕲΣΣᕲƧ on Sept 16, 2017 0:21:40 GMT -5
That's plain and simple fraud. A violation of implicit contractual agreement...Pix is in the business of selling non physical 1's and 0's...They have to take full advantage of the limited time to maximize a highly perishable digital privilege through artificially inducing scarcity in a thing that is infinitely reproducible. A paying player is actually renting access to digital non tangible content and is never the property of the buyer ever. If indeed players have full hangers of 12/12 Dash hangers hours after release by fraud refunding , this is out and out banable offenses. I would go a step further and say you are not even renting the bots/content. We are paying for enjoyment. Plain and simple. Like pumping quarters into an arcade game. You dont own the game, or even rent it. You just get the enjoyment of using it. The jerks that grabbed refunds from Apple just found away to get all their quarters back after getting their arcade time. Its the same as sneaking into a theater or sporting event. Do you think less people would take advantage of an exploit like Apple issuing refunds if they felt they were treated fairly? Sure there are people out there that will take advantage no matter what. But I think most people are good. If the players are satisfied they will not take advantage of Pixonic. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2017 0:48:12 GMT -5
I would go a step further and say you are not even renting the bots/content. We are paying for enjoyment. Plain and simple. Like pumping quarters into an arcade game. You dont own the game, or even rent it. You just get the enjoyment of using it. The jerks that grabbed refunds from Apple just found away to get all their quarters back after getting their arcade time. Its the same as sneaking into a theater or sporting event. Do you think less people would take advantage of an exploit like Apple issuing refunds if they felt they were treated fairly? Sure there are people out there that will take advantage no matter what. But I think most people are good. If the players are satisfied they will not take advantage of Pixonic. Yes, most people are good, but how many people illegally download music? Its kind of the same thing. The amount of tankers, faders, or whatever in this game, are an example of people not giving a firetruck about others. To tank is a bit sociopathic, is it not? "Apple has lots of money, so what does it matter"? is how these people likely think. |
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Post by 786anjalimohan on Sept 16, 2017 10:24:34 GMT -5
Black Market is whatever to me, i'm not bothered by the mechanic as much as some people. They should just set a dollar amount for dashes. What I -really- want (what I really really want) is that terrible "Pilot JAHDKJHSAK has won a Trident" to stop scrolling through my hanger screen, incredibly tacky IMO. |
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Post by darkmass35yt on Sept 18, 2017 3:11:11 GMT -5
Ive been hoping that there would be a new mecanic or way to play the game. What if we could play War Robots from the Robots perspective, Like a First Person mode for War Robots. Does anyone think that would be awesome? It would deffinetly change the gameplay completly. I dont know how well low end devices would handle if a bunch of detail goes into a 3D Cockpit. But first person would seem Amazing.
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Post by SATmaster728 on Sept 19, 2017 6:44:43 GMT -5
Do you think less people would take advantage of an exploit like Apple issuing refunds if they felt they were treated fairly? Sure there are people out there that will take advantage no matter what. But I think most people are good. If the players are satisfied they will not take advantage of Pixonic. Yes, most people are good, but how many people illegally download music? Its kind of the same thing. The amount of tankers, faders, or whatever in this game, are an example of people not giving a firetruck about others. To tank is a bit sociopathic, is it not? "Apple has lots of money, so what does it matter"? is how these people likely think. Well, with 7 billion people on earth, you are bound tom have many evil people |
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Post by frunobulax on Sept 19, 2017 12:42:28 GMT -5
Most people dont seem to realize that a HUGE number of players bought $500-1000 worth of keys, spun them, got their dash bots and then asked Apple for a refund. And in nearly all cases I have heard, Apple gave them all the money back. That's plain and simple fraud. A violation of implicit contractual agreement.... Naturally I'd expect Pixo to ban these accounts. And no matter what people say, I'm pretty sure that they will know who reclaimed money. However, I voiced several times that the gambling aspect of the bm coerces many players into spending much more money than they should have. And if they wake up a day later and decide to ask for a refund, I can kinda understand it. Side story: Over on Android, I checked out a new game. One of the first in-game messages was that apparently a lot of players got refunds from Google, and that anyone doing this would be banned. Turned out, the game was essentially a "place your money here" game, where you could all but buy game progress for real money. Seems the more money you have to spend on a game, the more frauds the game attracts. But back to the topic. Personally, I feel cheated by Pixo. And hear me out why. There are many "f2p = p2w" games out there. Now these games have different scales, in some games players are talking casually about paying "another $5000 for the next event". I can take a look at the game and decide "I'm outa here". With War Robots, I always had the feeling that the game "required" a moderate amount of money well within my spending limits. Like, if I bought premium every month, and maybe a bit of event currency here and then, say $20-$30 a month on average, I would become a very competetive player. So I spend money, probably $300 over the last year, and I didn't regret it so far - until now I always felt that I got something of reasonable value for my money, and given a bit time my hangar would take me to top tier where I could compete against the top players. Basically, the reason why I started to play this game, and allowed myself to become emotionally invested, was that you could win even without spending ridiculous amounts. But now the rules suddenly have changed. I hope you all realize that the Dash robots are just the start? Have a look at Pixos plans with the Mk2 robots, where you can upgrade past level 12. If this holds for weapons and bots equally, I'd wager you'll have to spend maybe $1000 and will get a shiny new Lancelot Mk2, that has twice the HP and whose weapons have twice the damage than a normal level 12 Lancelot. And if you want to know how this feels, head over to facebook gameroom, where I face the occasional 12/12 robots with my puny 6/5 hangar. Feels a bit like throwing darts at a tank. Bottom line, if you spend enough money you'll be unbeatable by any "casual spenders", the whales will go back to seal clubbing because all existing 12/12 players will suddenly look like seals to them. And this is why I feel cheated. Its because (a) the money I spend is now worth nothing anymore. It won't help me that I brought my game up to a very respectable 10/10 hangar with 2 Lancelots and some gold weapons, if I don't spend big time now I'll be just a seal. And (b), because I know now that this game has become a "insert coins here" machine, instead of a game where strategy and skill counts. Just look back at recent history. Many people complain that Pixo hasn't fixed tanking, matchmaking and so on. Open your eyes: They follow a very straight line, making only the big spenders happy. They did fix any fighting balance issues immediately. Rockets too strong? Wham, a few weeks later an upgrade that puts them back in place. Whales don't care about matchmaking trouble, because they will buy enough gold to quick-upgrade their hangar out of the tanking region quickly. But if Pixo went back the hangar based matchmaking, people wouldn't be forced to spend money, because they could happily play in their Boas. This matchmaking, players think if they could just get Lancelots, Dash robots and whatever, they would be able to stand a chance against tankers. Wrong of course, but they will realize it only after spending the money. Next Pixo devalued gold, so that clubbers can't hurt them economically because most new stuff isn't available for gold anyway, and the other stuff is so expensive that you'll have to club for months to get say a Butch. They don't care about the happiness of the free players, they care only about the happiness of the whales. And they hope they can make some money by converting some of the free players and medium spenders to whales. |
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Sept 19, 2017 13:01:53 GMT -5
Like the wise Panda says...This is a pay to entertain model. Just like your slacker subscription and cable bill. You own none of the content, and never will. There is no tangible property to be had, nor loss in it's value to incur..Like a park ride some can pay for special seats while others are only able to afford the regular seats...
Pix changes the game. This is the only thing you can know for certain. The player base must 「multiple dookie delivery chute」 if it's fun or not and vote with their dollars. If Pix 「fluffernutter」s up, They feel it in the monthly margins. If they succeed, they will reap a handsome profit for a good job. The reigns on the horse are profit and loss. There is no other system of accounting with such clarity or totality from which to gain direction.
I am on the fence with the coming changes and will judge them as they are released.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Sept 19, 2017 13:17:40 GMT -5
SNIP... I am on the fence with the coming changes and will judge them as they are released. ^^^^ This is really the only thing that can be done. We can, and will, discuss the possible ramifications amongst ourselves. Mostly, what we come up with will be wrong, either wholly or partially. Personally, I think there is a WHOLE lot of possible good to come from the changes proposed, and at least as much bad. If Pix handles it right it can be good... if not.... What do I expect? No clue. I HOPE that the lag is addressed and that if there is a Mk 2 Tier, that there is a HARD DEMARCATION between Mk1 and Mk 2 tiers. There HAS to be something that keeps the less than maxed hangars from going up against Mk 2 tier bots/weapons or there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, as evidenced by what has occurred with just the news release. Either way, ain't no use in worrying about it now. IMO, YMMV |
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Post by Gilded Wolf on Sept 19, 2017 19:07:53 GMT -5
SNIP... I am on the fence with the coming changes and will judge them as they are released. ^^^^ This is really the only thing that can be done. We can, and will, discuss the possible ramifications amongst ourselves. Mostly, what we come up with will be wrong, either wholly or partially. Personally, I think there is a WHOLE lot of possible good to come from the changes proposed, and at least as much bad. If Pix handles it right it can be good... if not.... What do I expect? No clue. I HOPE that the lag is addressed and that if there is a Mk 2 Tier, that there is a HARD DEMARCATION between Mk1 and Mk 2 tiers. There HAS to be something that keeps the less than maxed hangars from going up against Mk 2 tier bots/weapons or there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, as evidenced by what has occurred with just the news release. Either way, ain't no use in worrying about it now. IMO, YMMV Preach. |
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Post by bronzeknee on Sept 20, 2017 1:09:12 GMT -5
New Mechanic = 100 task grind-athon. It will be a set amount of things to grind and do. Honestly, I am okay with that as long as Pixonic is upfront about what we have to do. They were not prior to the release of the Dash Robots. By employing their deceit, they really just punish the rest of the honest playerbase, since there are more Dashes out there than Pix was paid for, so Pix will need to recoup that in their pricing going forward. But this isn't like a car dealer that got scammed and lost a bunch of cars and needs to recoup their losses. Pixonic paid a single price to develop all the Dash Robots they sell, whereas a car dealers pay for each car they sell individually. So Pixonic didn't lose anything. The sales they lost they never had, those people weren't going to buy things honestly to begin with, or they would have. So while I disagree strongly with people gaming the system, let's not try to justify Pixonic and their business decisions as if they need to "recoup costs." |
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Post by T34 on Sept 20, 2017 1:37:39 GMT -5
That sucks ballz for them but somehow I don't feel all that bad for them either. They tried playing us good players by trying to game the system against us and got played themselves...HA! And now, they're going to "fix" the delivery mechanic because we were grumbling? Ha! Does not make me feel sympathetic for them at all. So not only are they losing a bunch of money but also a lot of player good will. Oh irony! Disagree with all of this. Pix wasn't "playing" you. You know the rules going in. Its entertainment that you pay for. You can choose to pay for it or not. Panda,
Pix was and is playing us all. This is unregulated gambling and people don’t even know the odds. Its like give me money and I give you something back. Or here you go customer, give me money and roll the dice. It may or may not have a bit of lead in it.
The second reason why they are playing us all is because they’ve designed a gambling system to take advantage of human gambling related frailties. No warning, no explanations, no odds, …. Nothing, hype and stuff yes…. Dashes are coming, xxx won a dash, xxxx won 5000 gold…..
No one knows the rules in its entirety. This sort of approach would not pass any decent governments gambling related rules and regulation. Governments protect people against such predatory behaviour and the law of most countries do not accept this approach and does not leave people on their own to make up their own minds.
The only reason why Pix is getting away with it because this is an online game that regulations haven’t caught up with.
So in a way I congratulate apple for taking a very lenient stand on this matter. In this case apple is providing the protection.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2017 2:36:56 GMT -5
Disagree with all of this. Pix wasn't "playing" you. You know the rules going in. Its entertainment that you pay for. You can choose to pay for it or not. Panda,
Pix was and is playing us all. This is unregulated gambling and people don’t even know the odds. Its like give me money and I give you something back. Or here you go customer, give me money and roll the dice. It may or may not have a bit of lead in it.
The second reason why they are playing us all is because they’ve designed a gambling system to take advantage of human gambling related frailties. No warning, no explanations, no odds, …. Nothing, hype and stuff yes…. Dashes are coming, xxx won a dash, xxxx won 5000 gold…..
No one knows the rules in its entirety. This sort of approach would not pass any decent governments gambling related rules and regulation. Governments protect people against such predatory behaviour and the law of most countries do not accept this approach and does not leave people on their own to make up their own minds.
The only reason why Pix is getting away with it because this is an online game that regulations haven’t caught up with.
So in a way I congratulate apple for taking a very lenient stand on this matter. In this case apple is providing the protection.
This is a great point. The spins are tempting and potentially predatory. Not sure I agree that people need oversight to this degree though. Children maybe, but adults should know how to cope. |
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Post by T34 on Sept 20, 2017 18:08:14 GMT -5
Panda,
Pix was and is playing us all. This is unregulated gambling and people don’t even know the odds. Its like give me money and I give you something back. Or here you go customer, give me money and roll the dice. It may or may not have a bit of lead in it.
The second reason why they are playing us all is because they’ve designed a gambling system to take advantage of human gambling related frailties. No warning, no explanations, no odds, …. Nothing, hype and stuff yes…. Dashes are coming, xxx won a dash, xxxx won 5000 gold…..
No one knows the rules in its entirety. This sort of approach would not pass any decent governments gambling related rules and regulation. Governments protect people against such predatory behaviour and the law of most countries do not accept this approach and does not leave people on their own to make up their own minds.
The only reason why Pix is getting away with it because this is an online game that regulations haven’t caught up with.
So in a way I congratulate apple for taking a very lenient stand on this matter. In this case apple is providing the protection.
This is a great point. The spins are tempting and potentially predatory. Not sure I agree that people need oversight to this degree though. Children maybe, but adults should know how to cope. I am of the opinion that this industry needs oversight as a whole as exploitation will be limited only by the attitude of the game developer. A game should not be fleecing people thousands of dollars. that is simply not in proportion to what other things cost in life. However, if the spending is not dressed up with gambling mechanisms that is clearly intend to exploit people I am fine with that. No questions asked. say for instance the price is set ($1,000 for a dash bot). if the sticker price is there and someone buys it so be it.
the snake oil sales men have to be controlled for the benefit of the many by laws, regulations and oversight.
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Post by bronzeknee on Sept 21, 2017 2:24:23 GMT -5
Do we know if a Dash nerf coming too?
With a general release of the Dash Robots, it won't be long at all until the top of the game is 60 Haechi's battling each other...
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Post by DirtyLikaRat® on Sept 21, 2017 5:41:20 GMT -5
I am fine with the black market... Black markets are good I've won two dashes, a tempest and a scourge... And an Armenian bride, c 1000 dinars and a kilo of raw ooiumy
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Post by SATmaster728 on Sept 21, 2017 6:40:16 GMT -5
This is a great point. The spins are tempting and potentially predatory. Not sure I agree that people need oversight to this degree though. Children maybe, but adults should know how to cope. I am of the opinion that this industry needs oversight as a whole as exploitation will be limited only by the attitude of the game developer. A game should not be fleecing people thousands of dollars. that is simply not in proportion to what other things cost in life. However, if the spending is not dressed up with gambling mechanisms that is clearly intend to exploit people I am fine with that. No questions asked. say for instance the price is set ($1,000 for a dash bot). if the sticker price is there and someone buys it so be it.
the snake oil sales men have to be controlled for the benefit of the many by laws, regulations and oversight.
You must have never been to Las Vegas. Gambling for things in the real world has destroyed people, and has a chance for nothing won. you always get something from the chests. |
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Sept 21, 2017 10:06:43 GMT -5
This is a great point. The spins are tempting and potentially predatory. Not sure I agree that people need oversight to this degree though. Children maybe, but adults should know how to cope. I am of the opinion that this industry needs oversight as a whole as exploitation will be limited only by the attitude of the game developer. A game should not be fleecing people thousands of dollars. that is simply not in proportion to what other things cost in life. However, if the spending is not dressed up with gambling mechanisms that is clearly intend to exploit people I am fine with that. No questions asked. say for instance the price is set ($1,000 for a dash bot). if the sticker price is there and someone buys it so be it.
the snake oil sales men have to be controlled for the benefit of the many by laws, regulations and oversight.
No matter how much Pix crafts ways of getting people to spend, it will never meet the threshold of a forced or coerced transaction. FREE people, FREELY use the body they were given to FREELY click yes to spin the wheel... so that's consent (assuming age of consent). As for the Congressional regulatory body to over see pricing in the game industry world...That's simply absurd. These are voluntary transactions, regulation and price controls are forced transactions... |
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Post by SATmaster728 on Sept 21, 2017 11:51:24 GMT -5
I am of the opinion that this industry needs oversight as a whole as exploitation will be limited only by the attitude of the game developer. A game should not be fleecing people thousands of dollars. that is simply not in proportion to what other things cost in life. However, if the spending is not dressed up with gambling mechanisms that is clearly intend to exploit people I am fine with that. No questions asked. say for instance the price is set ($1,000 for a dash bot). if the sticker price is there and someone buys it so be it.
the snake oil sales men have to be controlled for the benefit of the many by laws, regulations and oversight.
No matter how much Pix crafts ways of getting people to spend, it will never meet the threshold of a forced or coerced transaction. FREE people, FREELY use the body they were given to FREELY click yes to spin the wheel... so that's consent (assuming age of consent). As for the Congressional regulatory body to over see pricing in the game industry world...That's simply absurd. These are voluntary transactions, regulation and price controls are forced transactions... let's add taxes to the game than!  |
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Post by tonyfla on Sept 21, 2017 14:40:16 GMT -5
1) My take-away from the OP and the translated Russian article posted in another thread is that Pixonic listens to its players and at least tries to meet us halfway-ish...if for no other reason than it just makes good business sense.
2) The Black Market is predatory. Period. Pix took a huge step in the wrong direction by implementing it. That decision has cost them a great deal of trust and goodwill from the players - but has probably made the company a great deal of money. Now Pix leadership are at a decision point: What kind of company do they want to be? Purely profit-driven, players be damned? Or ethical, responsible, and consumer-friendly, balancing profit with player satisfaction?
3) See point 1. It does seem that Pix realizes its stumble with the Black Market, to some degree. But even if they wanted to, which I'm sure they don't, the company probably has too much invested in and riding on the Black Market to dismantle it completely, especially this early. However, they are clearly offering an olive branch with some of the features in the upcoming update. That gives us reason to be somewhat hopeful. Also, it's a reminder that we should always be vocal with Pix about changes - both the ones we dislike AND the ones we like.
4) People knowingly spending a bunch of cash to get what they want from the game, then claiming refunds is kinda scummy on a human-being level. Especially if they did it solely so they can beat up on everyone else in the game with their free bots. At the same time, I have no problem with people ripping off corporations. I'm firmly of the belief that corporations have declared war on consumers around the globe, looking for every possible way to screw us over to enrich themselves. Fighting back is just fair.
4a) I wish Google was as easy as Apple. I was trying to buy the $10 key pack, but kept getting the message that my card was declined (my bank's fraud detection is SUPER sensitive). I hit 'buy' several times, got the 'declined' message several times. But then a bunch of keys showed up all at once. The card hadn't been declining after all. I ended up buying 3x more packs than I intended. Sent Google a refund request for $30. Literally within 2 minutes, got an automated reply saying basically nope, not a chance.
5) Forumers really aren't going to like this point, but...Several people have said that prices in War Robots are too high for everything. That is 100% true, the prices are ridiculous, as they are across all of mobile gaming. There is no excuse for any single game costing more than $60 max for ALL of the content and gear. A small monthly fee for access to the servers is reasonable under certain circumstances; same with additional costs for cosmetic items that do not affect gameplay. But $100 for a playable item, or to upgrade gear without having to wait months is inexcusable.
Here's the thing, though, and the part that people aren't going to like: The prices never would have gotten so high in the first place if every player was willing to pay a reasonable price for the game. Mobile game developers started this crap in the first place because people somehow got the idea that it was their right to play games free, even though it cost someone else a lot of creativity, money, and hard work to build them.
The prices are so high because a small percentage of players are footing the bill for everyone else to play free. BS like the Black Market wouldn't exist if everyone was willing to pitch in. I know saying that pisses people off, but it's true. So we can't lay all the blame for prices on Pix or other mobile devs...a lot of it's on us, too.
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Post by oddun on Sept 21, 2017 14:51:44 GMT -5
If you drop $1000 on a bloody mobile game, you are a mug.
That is all.
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Post by tonyfla on Sept 21, 2017 16:03:29 GMT -5
I am of the opinion that this industry needs oversight as a whole as exploitation will be limited only by the attitude of the game developer. A game should not be fleecing people thousands of dollars. that is simply not in proportion to what other things cost in life. However, if the spending is not dressed up with gambling mechanisms that is clearly intend to exploit people I am fine with that. No questions asked. say for instance the price is set ($1,000 for a dash bot). if the sticker price is there and someone buys it so be it.
the snake oil sales men have to be controlled for the benefit of the many by laws, regulations and oversight.
No matter how much Pix crafts ways of getting people to spend, it will never meet the threshold of a forced or coerced transaction. FREE people, FREELY use the body they were given to FREELY click yes to spin the wheel... so that's consent (assuming age of consent). As for the Congressional regulatory body to over see pricing in the game industry world...That's simply absurd. These are voluntary transactions, regulation and price controls are forced transactions... I agree the mobile gaming industry needs some oversight. The whole business has become exceedingly predatory, and I think that's probably reflected in Apple's willingness to issue refunds - because they know gaming companies are taking advantage. Pricing needs to be regulated, psychologically manipulative sales tactics need to be prohibited, and age restrictions need to be strictly enforced so kids aren't allowed to make purchases. As an example of things that can happen, my girlfriend let her 8-year-old niece play with her Kindle. She told her it was OK to install some games, but not to buy anything without asking. The girl is generally pretty responsible, more mature than her age, and said she understood. So, even though the GF's bank card is connected to her gaming account, she didn't think it would be necessary to disconnect it, especially because it would affect other stuff, too. Kid is glued to the Kindle for a few days days, then returns it. Says she had fun playing with it, so the GF figures she'll get her one of her own at some point in the near future. Meanwhile, the niece starts acting a little squirrelly around the GF, which is strange because those two are tight. GF says it seems like she's a little ashamed of something, but isn't positive and wants to give her time to come out with it on her own. The GF reviews all her accounts regularly, so she's going through her charges and finds a bunch for some unicorn game and, I crap you not, a baby dress-up game. How is dressing a baby a game? Anyway, they were small charges...$2.99, $4.99, etc. Thing is, they added up. All together, $167. It's obviously the niece. GF goes to her, asks if the kid has anything to tell her. Kid breaks down crying, says she didn't mean to, the game just kept popping up these small offers, the GF wasn't around to ask, but the niece thought she wouldn't mind because it's such a small amount. Then the next offer, then the next one. This went on for a couple of days. GF asks her how much she thinks she spent. She does that little kid 'I-don't-know' shrug, looks down at the floor and says in a tiny voice, "a lot." Not sure what her idea of a lot was, but when the GF told her how much, her eyes and mouth went huge and she started bawling all over again. The obvious question is why did she keep buying unicorn turds - or whatever made-up game currency - when she knew she shouldn't? But even the kid couldn't say exactly. She just said she felt like she needed them, like it was important, but after she stopped playing, it didn't seem important at all. The GF took a look at the games, which are clearly for kids, by the way. She said sure enough, every couple of minutes there'd be a pop-up: You're so close to level blah blah...you just need blah blah unicorn turds to get there...buy some now for $2.99. Don't fall behind all your friends. Now that kinda 「dookie」 can be predatory with adults. With kids, it's downright evil. So yeah, I'd definitely support some oversight and regulation of mobile gaming. And it wouldn't have to be done by governments. In fact, it would be better if they weren't involved. Those old firetrucks wouldn't know a mobile game from a VCR remote. Them trying to regulate the industry would be a goatscrew. This could be handled by the platforms: Google, Apple, Amazon, whoever else. They already regulate game content regarding 「popcorn」 and whatnot. All they would have to do is set pricing caps and establish rules on how in-app purchases are presented. Easy peasy. Of course, it would cost them money, since they get a piece of all purchases. They'd need a little moral courage. Apple has never shown any that I know of, but Amazon has from time to time. And isn't Google's motto "Don't be evil." It's possible they might be convinced to do the right thing. Probably not. But I do enjoy a good fantasy. |
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Post by T34 on Sept 21, 2017 17:32:39 GMT -5
I am of the opinion that this industry needs oversight as a whole as exploitation will be limited only by the attitude of the game developer. A game should not be fleecing people thousands of dollars. that is simply not in proportion to what other things cost in life. However, if the spending is not dressed up with gambling mechanisms that is clearly intend to exploit people I am fine with that. No questions asked. say for instance the price is set ($1,000 for a dash bot). if the sticker price is there and someone buys it so be it.
the snake oil sales men have to be controlled for the benefit of the many by laws, regulations and oversight.
You must have never been to Las Vegas. Gambling for things in the real world has destroyed people, and has a chance for nothing won. you always get something from the chests. Once I have been to Vegas and several times to the limited gambling places in Colorado. But even in Vegas you know the probably distribution say when you go to the roulette table, you know the odds and you know the payout figure. That alone makes a Humongous difference! That allows you to form an expectation (right or wrong). You have the ability to weigh up your risk and should you be lucky you get something tangible in return. In this BM none of that is known and you get nothing tangible in return. The prize is simply a lease to play that bot. At the end of the day you don't own any of the content even the stuff that you have won.
Look, I have been to casinos, go there every now and than for fun, I can control my behaviour but at the same time I know some cannot (which is shame). predatory mechanisms like the black market just shift the balance in favour of the house more and opens peoples valets more easily.
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Post by T34 on Sept 21, 2017 18:38:40 GMT -5
I am of the opinion that this industry needs oversight as a whole as exploitation will be limited only by the attitude of the game developer. A game should not be fleecing people thousands of dollars. that is simply not in proportion to what other things cost in life. However, if the spending is not dressed up with gambling mechanisms that is clearly intend to exploit people I am fine with that. No questions asked. say for instance the price is set ($1,000 for a dash bot). if the sticker price is there and someone buys it so be it.
the snake oil sales men have to be controlled for the benefit of the many by laws, regulations and oversight.
No matter how much Pix crafts ways of getting people to spend, it will never meet the threshold of a forced or coerced transaction. FREE people, FREELY use the body they were given to FREELY click yes to spin the wheel... so that's consent (assuming age of consent). As for the Congressional regulatory body to over see pricing in the game industry world...That's simply absurd. These are voluntary transactions, regulation and price controls are forced transactions... When it comes to these sorts of matters there is a bit more to it than “forced” and “coerced”. There is also an elephant of a thing sitting in the corner called “PSYCHOLOGICAL COERCION”.
It is a FACT of life and psychological coercion is even defined in legal terms (and by other professional disciplines as well). Amongst many organisations casinos also use this method to extract more money out of people than what they really want to spend.
Psychological coercion is where a persons capacity to make FREE and/or INFORMED decisions becomes inhibited. Quick look at the predatory behaviour of PIX in this regards when they implemented the BM.
1. You don’t know the odds/payback rates (huge issue – no casino gets away with this, this is way over the top)
2. They give you the illusion of control (buy or don’t buy keys…..its up to you…. But there is a percentage of people, when it comes to gambling that they think they are luckier than the rest)
3. They advertise heavily the winnings of others (than you say if he won so can i)
4. They put the BM gambling opportunity in your path. On the front page with exclamation mark and at the end of matches)
5. They use “keys” and not “real money” – this is a biggie (but takes too long to explain)
6. The keys expire at 14 or what ever day – another biggie (but takes too long to explain)
7. They restock the chests without informing you of whats in them
8. The spinning wheel graphics do not match the real distribution and probability of items. HUGE issue - Ahhhh I missed that damned hiachi for the 10th time. I must spin again cant be so unlucky again (this mechanism uses the “gambler’s fallacy” concept to pray on people).
9. Come back and spin again mechanism – free keys given away.
10. Make the highly desirable items only available via this mechanism and make the desirable item OP
11. gives you free keys at the start to encourage the behaviour or at minimum to start it (free casino chips?)
Could go on but had enough……. This is a very carefully and well designed mechanism to extract more money from people than what they really want to spend and it is dressed up as a fair and equitable mechanism when it is clearly not. It uses every mechanism used by regulated gambling institutions and then uses some more which casinos and alike would not even dream of getting away with.
Edit: PS: I think you misunderstood the reasons for oversight. is not for regulating pricing but for regulating predatory behaviour.
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roadbot
GI. Patton
Posts: 132
Karma: 129
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Post by roadbot on Sept 21, 2017 19:05:38 GMT -5
True, i totally support some type of regulation on the mobile gaming. At this point id even be willing to put it in the hands of the government! And i cant stand the government, but thats how bad this crap is.
On xbox forza horizon 3, the other day i bought 2 expansion packs for like $30 i think. Thats tons of content and gameplay. All told ive probably spent like a little less than $100 on the game, for tons of fun. How in the hell did mobile gaming get to this point of getting so little, in some cases literally NOTHING, content in return for real money? I spend money on a car in the xbox game, i get the car. If i were to spend on the black market, theres the possibility i get half as many keys as i spent, and eventually end up with not enough keys to spin again. So you literally get nothing. Isnt this false advertising somehow? How is it legal to just take peoples cash like that? They dont call it gambling, if they did then someone could say well it was a risk, instead they do everything possible to give the illusion that you will get something. It should be illegal, force them to call it what it is, gambling
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Post by T34 on Sept 21, 2017 19:19:37 GMT -5
True, i totally support some type of regulation on the mobile gaming. At this point id even be willing to put it in the hands of the government! And i cant stand the government, but thats how bad this crap is. On xbox forza horizon 3, the other day i bought 2 expansion packs for like $30 i think. Thats tons of content and gameplay. All told ive probably spent like a little less than $100 on the game, for tons of fun. How in the hell did mobile gaming get to this point of getting so little, in some cases literally NOTHING, content in return for real money? I spend money on a car in the xbox game, i get the car. If i were to spend on the black market, theres the possibility i get half as many keys as i spent, and eventually end up with not enough keys to spin again. So you literally get nothing. Isnt this false advertising somehow? How is it legal to just take peoples cash like that? They dont call it gambling, if they did then someone could say well it was a risk, instead they do everything possible to give the illusion that you will get something. It should be illegal, force them to call it what it is, gambling I really don't think its legal what pix did in most jurisdictions. the issue is getting the money back would be a very arduous undertaking as with any legal approach in cases of new scenarios which has no precedence.
if I would have bought keys (which I didn't) I would at minimum complain to apple or google as per the rational above and request a refund. even if you have won something the value is simply not there as per your example. if google or apple accepts the reasoning than requesting a refund is above board. this is the only way to signal to developers that it is not ok to do what they did. And perhaps by writing them a complaint note.
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roadbot
GI. Patton
Posts: 132
Karma: 129
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Post by roadbot on Sept 21, 2017 19:35:50 GMT -5
True, i totally support some type of regulation on the mobile gaming. At this point id even be willing to put it in the hands of the government! And i cant stand the government, but thats how bad this crap is. On xbox forza horizon 3, the other day i bought 2 expansion packs for like $30 i think. Thats tons of content and gameplay. All told ive probably spent like a little less than $100 on the game, for tons of fun. How in the hell did mobile gaming get to this point of getting so little, in some cases literally NOTHING, content in return for real money? I spend money on a car in the xbox game, i get the car. If i were to spend on the black market, theres the possibility i get half as many keys as i spent, and eventually end up with not enough keys to spin again. So you literally get nothing. Isnt this false advertising somehow? How is it legal to just take peoples cash like that? They dont call it gambling, if they did then someone could say well it was a risk, instead they do everything possible to give the illusion that you will get something. It should be illegal, force them to call it what it is, gambling I really don't think its legal what pix did in most jurisdictions. the issue is getting the money back would be a very arduous undertaking as with any legal approach in cases of new scenarios which has no precedence.
if I would have bought keys (which I didn't) I would at minimum complain to apple or google as per the rational above and request a refund. even if you have won something the value is simply not there as per your example. if google or apple accepts the reasoning than requesting a refund is above board. this is the only way to signal to developers that it is not ok to do what they did. And perhaps by writing them a complaint note.
That didnt happen to me, i dont spend money on that crap anymore. If i spend money, i just buy gold, usually more as a gesture to support pixonic than as a way to get something in return, but even in that sense at least i can for sure get w robot or weapon. Yet even there, all pixonic has to do is release a new robot that completely invalidates the robot i may have spent money on in the past. But thats besides the point, the reason i know the market stuff is bs is because i tried it a few times a long time ago when first played, like with the seasonal events, but quickly realized it was a total scam. The same scam in every single damn freemium game. It shouldnt be legal, especially when targeting kids. Check out this article, makes some good points: https/qz.com/873348/50000-coins-for-1-99-how-mobile-game-in-app-purchases-are-warping-kids-understanding-of-basic-economic-ideas/ By the way, regarding what i said about the bots being replaced, has anyone noticed the dashbots are basically mobile fujins? Question, what was the reasoning for not allowing the fujin to move with the shield up? The shield only turns on if that bot stops moving. It has 3 mediums, and decentish health. My GUESS would be the devs thought the robot would be OP if it could move and have a shield and have so much firepower. Sooooo... What the hell? The dashbots are mobile fujins, plus a dash feature! How in the world is that not the most obvious cash grab OP robot? It has 3 mediums, a shield, moves FAST, AND can dash, wait for it, TWICE. Are they gonna release a mobile raijin, with 2 heavy weapons, a 360 physical shield all the time, and a feature that extends the legs to make you taller and still mobile while at the dame time giving a 50% increase to weapon damage? LOL |
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Sept 21, 2017 20:17:56 GMT -5
No matter how much Pix crafts ways of getting people to spend, it will never meet the threshold of a forced or coerced transaction. FREE people, FREELY use the body they were given to FREELY click yes to spin the wheel... so that's consent (assuming age of consent). As for the Congressional regulatory body to over see pricing in the game industry world...That's simply absurd. These are voluntary transactions, regulation and price controls are forced transactions... When it comes to these sorts of matters there is a bit more to it than “forced” and “coerced”. There is also an elephant of a thing sitting in the corner called “PSYCHOLOGICAL COERCION”.
It is a FACT of life and psychological coercion is even defined in legal terms (and by other professional disciplines as well). Amongst many organisations casinos also use this method to extract more money out of people than what they really want to spend.
Psychological coercion is where a persons capacity to make FREE and/or INFORMED decisions becomes inhibited. Quick look at the predatory behaviour of PIX in this regards when they implemented the BM.
1. You don’t know the odds/payback rates (huge issue – no casino gets away with this, this is way over the top)
2. They give you the illusion of control (buy or don’t buy keys…..its up to you…. But there is a percentage of people, when it comes to gambling that they think they are luckier than the rest)
3. They advertise heavily the winnings of others (than you say if he won so can i)
4. They put the BM gambling opportunity in your path. On the front page with exclamation mark and at the end of matches)
5. They use “keys” and not “real money” – this is a biggie (but takes too long to explain)
6. The keys expire at 14 or what ever day – another biggie (but takes too long to explain)
7. They restock the chests without informing you of whats in them
8. The spinning wheel graphics do not match the real distribution and probability of items. HUGE issue - Ahhhh I missed that damned hiachi for the 10th time. I must spin again cant be so unlucky again (this mechanism uses the “gambler’s fallacy” concept to pray on people).
9. Come back and spin again mechanism – free keys given away.
10. Make the highly desirable items only available via this mechanism and make the desirable item OP
11. gives you free keys at the start to encourage the behaviour or at minimum to start it (free casino chips?)
Could go on but had enough……. This is a very carefully and well designed mechanism to extract more money from people than what they really want to spend and it is dressed up as a fair and equitable mechanism when it is clearly not. It uses every mechanism used by regulated gambling institutions and then uses some more which casinos and alike would not even dream of getting away with.
Edit: PS: I think you misunderstood the reasons for oversight. is not for regulating pricing but for regulating predatory behaviour.
Ya no..you just made all that up. Sounds good but is utter BS. Physical coercion is absent in all Pixonic transactions which is all that's legally and morally relevant. Most People know what gambling is and how it works...and consent or they don't. For the kiddies who blow up their parents credit card spam buying...refunds are usually available.. |
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