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Post by BLYTHE on Aug 9, 2017 1:04:23 GMT -5
Not this again. You need your own thread for that topic. BTW, I keep confusing powerplay and Firebeard and I only just figured out why! -Amid I get you and BLYTHE mixed up. I think it's because of the thunder carnage.... Mine's got a nicer paint job. |
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powerplay
Destrier
Posts: 28
Karma: 13
Pilot name: Power Play
League: Diamond
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Post by powerplay on Aug 9, 2017 5:26:59 GMT -5
Dun, dun, duh! It is I! Yes, -22 points sucks the big Kahuna. With that said, if you are constantly scoring lowest in destruction, and beacons are a waste, maybe you should quit. It would appear that you are not interested in winning, killing, doing damage, earning silver, earning gold, etc. Spooooo, either quit, or Shut Up and Play! Good point. However, it is very possible for a player, especially in big maps as springfield, to have a very useful behavior during a match, like going for the distant beacons and failing to encounter opponents. Therefore, the overall damage output of this player is lowered and it is very possible for him to get the -22 "punishment". Another useful behavior in this game is to make the reds lose time, a crucial resource when it comes to winning the game, this kind of strategy do not exist anymore because it does not increases the damage output. So a useful behavior is not encouraged but punished in War Robots. |
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powerplay
Destrier
Posts: 28
Karma: 13
Pilot name: Power Play
League: Diamond
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Post by powerplay on Aug 9, 2017 5:40:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd need my own avatar, it's pretty obvious I just signed up to this forum! |
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Post by seanh on Aug 9, 2017 6:18:02 GMT -5
While the -22 is a bit of a kick in the nuts I donât have a better solution. Sure the -22 could be a smaller number, but I would still be annoyed by the fact I am bottom of the table, not necessarily the number related to it. The problem is finding a suitable metric that reflects in game performance. I donât know if there is one that could not just be manipulated in some way or another. While I do think beacon runners have an important role if used correctly, over incentivising them would lead to an even bigger mess.
While the -22 is 「dookie」, I have to say what boils my blood more is when you make the right tactical decision (take & hold a crucial beacon etc) and are one of the main reasons for your teams win and the machine give you 2 points for your trouble. While some camper who never left spawn take the top honours, it winds me up.
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Post by Koalabear on Aug 9, 2017 7:11:42 GMT -5
It's just a number. Even though I'm in Gold 3, I regularly play with other players in Diamond and Silver. I have fun here even though my win ratio has tanked recently. But I find I have more fun, and even win more games when I just let go of the stupid league system and play to my strengths. For example, yesterday, I killed a full health Carnage with my DB Gareth. I was at half health but my shield was at full. Yes, I got caught by a RDB somewhere. He thought I was weak and he marched right up. I waited behind a column, and when he was uber close, I whizzed around the corner, got under his shield, and after my initial salvo, I circle of death'd him. And today, I sent an Ancilot running with his tail between his legs with the same tactic. Couldn't finish him off. He walked off the bridge in Yamantau and straight into a rocket volley.  |
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Post by hyderier on Aug 9, 2017 7:21:23 GMT -5
That's it, I'm about to stop playing War Robots. -22 is way too much to lose when you are the one with the less dammage output and the silly 1-2-3 bonus for beacon capture is an insult to usefull players You are setting the league points as your goal. It isn't. It is a measure of your ability to do damage or win. If you both do least damage in your team and lose, you should lose the maximum amount of league points, no? It's a good thing. It helps you to match with players who do similar amounts of damage as you. This in turn means, that on wins you have better chance to get Au rewards. |
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powerplay
Destrier
Posts: 28
Karma: 13
Pilot name: Power Play
League: Diamond
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Post by powerplay on Aug 9, 2017 9:03:39 GMT -5
It's just a number. Even though I'm in Gold 3, I regularly play with other players in Diamond and Silver. I have fun here even though my win ratio has tanked recently. But I find I have more fun, and even win more games when I just let go of the stupid league system and play to my strengths. For example, yesterday, I killed a full health Carnage with my DB Gareth. I was at half health but my shield was at full. Yes, I got caught by a RDB somewhere. He thought I was weak and he marched right up. I waited behind a column, and when he was uber close, I whizzed around the corner, got under his shield, and after my initial salvo, I circle of death'd him. And today, I sent an Ancilot running with his tail between his legs with the same tactic. Couldn't finish him off. He walked off the bridge in Yamantau and straight into a rocket volley. 'looks like you are the kind of player I would like to play with and against. Its a shame the system is not encouraging it. |
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powerplay
Destrier
Posts: 28
Karma: 13
Pilot name: Power Play
League: Diamond
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Post by powerplay on Aug 9, 2017 9:14:27 GMT -5
That's it, I'm about to stop playing War Robots. -22 is way too much to lose when you are the one with the less dammage output and the silly 1-2-3 bonus for beacon capture is an insult to usefull players You are setting the league points as your goal. It isn't. It is a measure of your ability to do damage or win. If you both do least damage in your team and lose, you should lose the maximum amount of league points, no? It's a good thing. It helps you to match with players who do similar amounts of damage as you. This in turn means, that on wins you have better chance to get Au rewards. I understand and agree on what you are saying here. This is a very pertinent point. My goal in this game is to have fun and I do not anymore because of the behavior shift the system is inducing. Damage focused behavior is encouraged and strategy ones are disapearing because... well... "damage". On top of that, the balance between damage and health is fading away (this is a whole other topic) Of course, I should just forget about leagues, I would have more fun this way. Maybe I give too much importance to it because there is nothing else to indicate your evolution in the game since player level is topped at 30 and weapons levels are not a really good indicator of your skills... |
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powerplay
Destrier
Posts: 28
Karma: 13
Pilot name: Power Play
League: Diamond
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Post by powerplay on Aug 9, 2017 9:16:36 GMT -5
While the -22 is a bit of a kick in the nuts I don’t have a better solution. Sure the -22 could be a smaller number, but I would still be annoyed by the fact I am bottom of the table, not necessarily the number related to it. The problem is finding a suitable metric that reflects in game performance. I don’t know if there is one that could not just be manipulated in some way or another. While I do think beacon runners have an important role if used correctly, over incentivising them would lead to an even bigger mess. While the -22 is ?poo-poo?, I have to say what boils my blood more is when you make the right tactical decision (take & hold a crucial beacon etc) and are one of the main reasons for your teams win and the machine give you 2 points for your trouble. While some camper who never left spawn take the top honours, it winds me up. What is your opinion about this proposition?:  EXAMPLE: team win, first position in damage, fourth position in Beacons, 8+2=10 EXAMPLE2: Team loses, second position in damage, third position in beacon: 3-2=1 |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 9:21:45 GMT -5
The issue with that proposition with the League points distribution are beacons. Normally, there are many ties between beacons and while you can get around 4-5 beacons per game in close ranged maps like Dead City or Powerplant, how are you going to address the issue of people getting ties of 1 beacon or 0 beacons in long ranged maps like Yamateau or Springfield?
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Post by seanh on Aug 9, 2017 9:28:41 GMT -5
There are two problems, firstly giving beacons equal status might result is fleets of beacon cappers. This I think is probably worse than damage mongers. Around the last event you could clearly see when people were getting to beacon tasks, most of the players in games where just running in circles capping beacons, some even collaborating with reds to flick beacons on and off list light switches. So while I think beacons should have more prominence, I wouldn't make them equal.
The second and more fundamental is I don't believe league points are driving the damage culture, I think it's the silver pay out. League points have no value really, you might even say negative value, in terms of you ability to get resources. Ag is the most valuable resource for most long standing players, so I think it's the silver payout related to the damage is what they are after.
At the end of the day the points system is just about how the match making works, I don't think most people pay any attention to it. I would say if you wanted to change behaviour in game looking at the tangible rewards is the answer. But having said all that, I think it's mostly working ok at the moment, for me anyway.
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Post by Danny Linguini on Aug 9, 2017 9:31:25 GMT -5
The issue with that proposition with the League points distribution are beacons. Normally, there are many ties between beacons and while you can get around 4-5 beacons per game in close ranged maps like Dead City or Powerplant, how are you going to address the issue of people getting ties of 1 beacon or 0 beacons in long ranged maps like Yamateau or Springfield? Good question. I'd suggest then just following the order of damage in the event of ties for beacons. |
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Post by Koalabear on Aug 9, 2017 9:59:23 GMT -5
It's just a number. Even though I'm in Gold 3, I regularly play with other players in Diamond and Silver. I have fun here even though my win ratio has tanked recently. But I find I have more fun, and even win more games when I just let go of the stupid league system and play to my strengths. For example, yesterday, I killed a full health Carnage with my DB Gareth. I was at half health but my shield was at full. Yes, I got caught by a RDB somewhere. He thought I was weak and he marched right up. I waited behind a column, and when he was uber close, I whizzed around the corner, got under his shield, and after my initial salvo, I circle of death'd him. And today, I sent an Ancilot running with his tail between his legs with the same tactic. Couldn't finish him off. He walked off the bridge in Yamantau and straight into a rocket volley. 'looks like you are the kind of player I would like to play with and against. Its a shame the system is not encouraging it. If you end up on my team one day, I promise to back you up. And if I find you in my crosshairs, I promise I'll make it quick. Professional courtesy!  |
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Post by Firebeard on Aug 9, 2017 10:13:54 GMT -5
Why does the Scoring have to be zero sum? Tankers are prevalent because of net-loss. Wouldn't it be preferable to have zero-gain? There is no net loss. Tankers are prevalent because of a flaw in the system which would still be there and exploitable even if both winners and losers got equal opposite scores. (it would take significantly longer to go down leagues however). Whenever a tanker goes down in league points, somebody else goes up. There are actually probably a good portion of us that are really in slightly higher leagues than we should be if everybody was playing the game to their fullest ability. Here's the problem with that, though: If a Tanker goes down and a Player goes up that is implying that the League system is static - there is no way for a Player to advance based upon their own merits - all Players are depending upon others to determine their relative position(s). It makes no sense to penalize a Player because another Player, somewhere, advanced. If your assumption is correct, then with the abundance of Tankers, I and most others should be +Gold League because the Tankers would have, by default, placed us there. |
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Post by stokr on Aug 9, 2017 10:25:30 GMT -5
Another useful behavior in this game is to make the reds lose time, a crucial resource when it comes to winning the game, this kind of strategy do not exist anymore because it does not increases the damage output. I dunno 'bout that. I know I still do it and don't feel I'm being penalized for it. I move into a time burning position in my second bot. |
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Post by Firebeard on Aug 9, 2017 10:31:13 GMT -5
Why does the Scoring have to be zero sum? Tankers are prevalent because of net-loss. Wouldn't it be preferable to have zero-gain? Not this again. You need your own thread for that topic. BTW, I keep confusing powerplay and Firebeard and I only just figured out why! -Amid Slow down there, Killer .. it was a question directed towards the OP. Your sarcasm is invalid .. |
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Post by amidf on Aug 9, 2017 10:48:37 GMT -5
Not this again. You need your own thread for that topic. BTW, I keep confusing powerplay and Firebeard and I only just figured out why! -Amid Slow down there, Killer .. it was a question directed towards the OP. Your sarcasm is invalid .. Spoiler: It's because you use the same avatar. -Amid |
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powerplay
Destrier
Posts: 28
Karma: 13
Pilot name: Power Play
League: Diamond
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Post by powerplay on Aug 9, 2017 12:03:02 GMT -5
Slow down there, Killer .. it was a question directed towards the OP. Your sarcasm is invalid .. Spoiler: It's because you use the same avatar. -Amid I fixed it! |
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powerplay
Destrier
Posts: 28
Karma: 13
Pilot name: Power Play
League: Diamond
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Post by powerplay on Aug 9, 2017 12:16:03 GMT -5
Another useful behavior in this game is to make the reds lose time, a crucial resource when it comes to winning the game, this kind of strategy do not exist anymore because it does not increases the damage output. I dunno 'bout that. I know I still do it and don't feel I'm being penalized for it. I move into a time burning position in my second bot. Crazy good gameplay, gratz! (crazy good music. huge fan of tool here!). Tere is this fact though: this map makes you encounter opponents all the way up to red's home beacon. So your damage output is not affected when you run for it. But in springfield for exemple, if you want to mess with the furtest red's home beacon in order to destabilize them, it is very probable you'd need to get away from brawling areas. You'd loose between 2 and 3 minutes without doing any damage and probably get in the last 3 players of your team even if your move was strategicaly pertinent to win the game. |
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Post by Firebeard on Aug 9, 2017 12:42:54 GMT -5
Slow down there, Killer .. it was a question directed towards the OP. Your sarcasm is invalid .. Spoiler: It's because you use the same avatar. -Amid I was referring to the first statement of your Post .. |
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Post by amidf on Aug 9, 2017 13:03:42 GMT -5
Spoiler: It's because you use the same avatar. -Amid I was referring to the first statement of your Post .. You had your chance to defend your unlimited league point system when you rolled out the idea a couple of months ago. It doesn't work. This was explained many times. This is not the thread to rehash it. -Amid |
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Post by Firebeard on Aug 9, 2017 13:11:04 GMT -5
I was referring to the first statement of your Post .. You had your chance to defend your unlimited league point system when you rolled out the idea a couple of months ago. It doesn't work. This was explained many times. This is not the thread to rehash it. -Amid Not wanting to hijack the OP's Thread but: "How is the current system working out, for most Players?" We wouldn't have complaint after complaint about Tankers if Players were forced upwards - |
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Post by stokr on Aug 9, 2017 14:15:35 GMT -5
You had your chance to defend your unlimited league point system when you rolled out the idea a couple of months ago. It doesn't work. This was explained many times. This is not the thread to rehash it. -Amid Not wanting to hijack the OP's Thread but: "How is the current system working out, for most Players?" We wouldn't have complaint after complaint about Tankers if Players were forced upwards - Using complaints on a forum, as a barometer of the whole is somewhat flawed. It's like IT. No one ever wanders over to say how great everything is running. The forums are similar. IMHO more often than not they represent a vocal minority. As for how is the current system? For me it's good and I find I have very little to complain about. |
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Post by moody on Aug 9, 2017 15:23:58 GMT -5
There is no net loss. Tankers are prevalent because of a flaw in the system which would still be there and exploitable even if both winners and losers got equal opposite scores. (it would take significantly longer to go down leagues however). Whenever a tanker goes down in league points, somebody else goes up. There are actually probably a good portion of us that are really in slightly higher leagues than we should be if everybody was playing the game to their fullest ability. Here's the problem with that, though: If a Tanker goes down and a Player goes up that is implying that the League system is static - there is no way for a Player to advance based upon their own merits - all Players are depending upon others to determine their relative position(s). It makes no sense to penalize a Player because another Player, somewhere, advanced. If your assumption is correct, then with the abundance of Tankers, I and most others should be +Gold League because the Tankers would have, by default, placed us there. The League system is static and is supposed to be static. That's what a league system is. We are not in an 'everybody gets a prize even if they are last place' system. It is just a system to rank the people within that system. It is incorrect to consider going down in rank to be a penalty. Going down in rank is absolutely fine, it doesn't lose you gold or anything, it is just placing you where you should be depending on your performance. |
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Post by Firebeard on Aug 9, 2017 15:44:58 GMT -5
Here's the problem with that, though: If a Tanker goes down and a Player goes up that is implying that the League system is static - there is no way for a Player to advance based upon their own merits - all Players are depending upon others to determine their relative position(s). It makes no sense to penalize a Player because another Player, somewhere, advanced. If your assumption is correct, then with the abundance of Tankers, I and most others should be +Gold League because the Tankers would have, by default, placed us there. The League system is static and is supposed to be static. That's what a league system is. We are not in an 'everybody gets a prize even if they are last place' system. It is just a system to rank the people within that system. It is incorrect to consider going down in rank to be a penalty. Going down in rank is absolutely fine, it doesn't lose you gold or anything, it is just placing you where you should be depending on your performance. Leagues, by their very nature, are supposed to be dynamic. Going down in Standings should not be an option, a Player should just fail to gain. Furthermore, just because a Player advanced that shouldn't mean another Player is, yes - penalized [points] for the "privilege of Losing. We're not racing for pink slips, here .. +/0 is the preferred ratio. |
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Post by moody on Aug 9, 2017 16:34:30 GMT -5
The League system is static and is supposed to be static. That's what a league system is. We are not in an 'everybody gets a prize even if they are last place' system. It is just a system to rank the people within that system. It is incorrect to consider going down in rank to be a penalty. Going down in rank is absolutely fine, it doesn't lose you gold or anything, it is just placing you where you should be depending on your performance. Leagues, by their very nature, are supposed to be dynamic. Going down in Standings should not be an option, a Player should just fail to gain. Furthermore, just because a Player advanced that shouldn't mean another Player is, yes - penalized [points] for the "privilege of Losing. We're not racing for pink slips, here .. +/0 is the preferred ratio. The HUGE problem with this is that frequency, not skill, becomes the deciding factor for rank. Anybody who wants to go up in leagues just has to play a lot. Even if you are only gaining one or two points on average per game - somebody who plays 20 games a day is going to rise way more than somebody who is gaining +5 or +6 for only a game or two per day. We would start having a lot of no-skill kids with lots of time up at the top. |
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Post by Firebeard on Aug 9, 2017 19:13:51 GMT -5
Leagues, by their very nature, are supposed to be dynamic. Going down in Standings should not be an option, a Player should just fail to gain. Furthermore, just because a Player advanced that shouldn't mean another Player is, yes - penalized [points] for the "privilege of Losing. We're not racing for pink slips, here .. +/0 is the preferred ratio. The HUGE problem with this is that frequency, not skill, becomes the deciding factor for rank. Anybody who wants to go up in leagues just has to play a lot. Even if you are only gaining one or two points on average per game - somebody who plays 20 games a day is going to rise way more than somebody who is gaining +5 or +6 for only a game or two per day. We would start having a lot of no-skill kids with lots of time up at the top. OK, we'll call it a day .. Sorry, OP for the temporary diversion. |
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Post by Muhlakai on Aug 9, 2017 21:36:44 GMT -5
I had a match on Yama today to me that illustrated why I think the leagues are detrimental. Their dogged insistence on "damage over all else" resulted in a ridiculous outcome for my team. The top player had over 700k in damage thanks to lv 11/12 trebuchets on a Fury. "SuperEliteSniper" spent the entire game shooting not at priority targets, but any random target that he hadn't fired at lately and had thus ventured out. He was farming damage. The problem, of course, is that this provided no support for some very beleaguered Blues who were desperately fighting an outmatched battle in the center. The league system said that this joker, who spent the entire game in a single bot, was the best player. Common sense would indicate that this guy was, at best, nonessential to the team and most likely an actual liability. We can all farm damage. The problem is that the leagues reward this over behavior that Pix *should* want us to duplicate.    |
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