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Post by adrenachrome on Jul 27, 2017 11:17:43 GMT -5
Why did orkans get buffed? I have 199k hit points in my Leo... A griff with orkan pinata can take all 200k hit points in a single volley and fast too.... A few seconds. How is this balanced? How is being able to zero a bot instantly a good thing? I am saving for orkans right now. I believe once I add orkans and a 5th slot I will sky rocket leagues.... Seems a little over powered. Or is this required in higher levels?
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Post by hi5 on Jul 27, 2017 11:36:10 GMT -5
It's all about matchups. Slap an Ancile on your Leo with pinatas or mags and you can absorb the DB burst and probably take em out. An RDB can take a DB out from range if you know how to keep your distance over 300 - same with a plasma Galahad (but with less room for error). DB vs Ancilot is usually dependent upon the skill of each pilot, as a good ambush can get the DB inside the Ancile to unload or the Lance can stay just under 350 and take the DB out with Tarans and the Ancile as buffer.
Best tip is to identify the red bot and build as far away from them as possible - if you match up well then engage, if not then suppress or find other prey. Buddy up with another blue when you can. Example: thunder Carnage works really well with a physical shield blue teammate for rushing. Shield bot blocks any plasma, Carnage block splash and combined weapons strength can overpower multiple reds.
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Post by adrenachrome on Jul 27, 2017 11:47:41 GMT -5
It's all about matchups. Slap an Ancile on your Leo with pinatas or mags and you can absorb the DB burst and probably take em out. An RDB can take a DB out from range if you know how to keep your distance over 300 - same with a plasma Galahad (but with less room for error). DB vs Ancilot is usually dependent upon the skill of each pilot, as a good ambush can get the DB inside the Ancile to unload or the Lance can stay just under 350 and take the DB out with Tarans and the Ancile as buffer. Best tip is to identify the red bot and build as far away from them as possible - if you match up well then engage, if not then suppress or find other prey. Buddy up with another blue when you can. Example: thunder Carnage works really well with a physical shield blue teammate for rushing. Shield bot blocks any plasma, Carnage block splash and combined weapons strength can overpower multiple reds. You seem to have misunderstood my post... I am not discussing map or bot attack strategy. I am talking current weapon buffs. Please stay on topic. |
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Post by Deadeye on Jul 27, 2017 13:42:50 GMT -5
It's all about matchups. Slap an Ancile on your Leo with pinatas or mags and you can absorb the DB burst and probably take em out. An RDB can take a DB out from range if you know how to keep your distance over 300 - same with a plasma Galahad (but with less room for error). DB vs Ancilot is usually dependent upon the skill of each pilot, as a good ambush can get the DB inside the Ancile to unload or the Lance can stay just under 350 and take the DB out with Tarans and the Ancile as buffer. Best tip is to identify the red bot and build as far away from them as possible - if you match up well then engage, if not then suppress or find other prey. Buddy up with another blue when you can. Example: thunder Carnage works really well with a physical shield blue teammate for rushing. Shield bot blocks any plasma, Carnage block splash and combined weapons strength can overpower multiple reds. You seem to have misunderstood my post... I am not discussing map or bot attack strategy. I am talking current weapon buffs. Please stay on topic. Good luck getting people to reply to your questions if you slap them on the wrists for going a bit off topic. Besides, hi5 answered your question in a way and in part. By pointing out the options to defeat a DB griffin, he shows why they might want to increase it's damage. If there are too many counters for a set up, it becomes irrelevant and will fall off in popularity. Pix can't exactly let it's Au weapons fall out of favor. Yes, Orkans are very strong, but all the buff did was allow certain builds to remain effective in the role they play. It did not really expand their role. Running a maxed DB griff myself, it was incredibly frustrating to unload all my rockets on something (maxed out leo for example) and still not have it go down. It took me a lot of sneaking and walking to get near enough to that guy and surprise him, now he's going to kill me because my salvo wasn't enough. Just a thought. I don't know exactly why Pix did it.
Just remember to be kind and tactful with those responding to your questions. They are taking personal time out of their day to try to help you out. Besides, you'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar as the saying goes.
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Post by bronzeknee on Jul 27, 2017 13:54:41 GMT -5
It isn't a good thing that you can die so quickly to a single robot in one of the tankiest robots in the game. Buffing damage makes the game objectively worse for skilled players. I don't know why robots need to kill other robots in a single cycle, it discourages teamwork, reduces skill and isn't the hallmark of Mech game. We discussed it at length here: war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/11362/buffing-damage-contracts-time-hurtsI do believe in time, Pixonic may remedy this. Or at least I hope. Until then we should keep on them about it and do what hi5 says, select a robots that counters a DB Griffin. A Plasma Griffin beats a DB Griffin easily if jump available. |
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Post by adrenachrome on Jul 27, 2017 14:12:54 GMT -5
It isn't a good thing that you can die so quickly to a single robot in one of the tankiest robots in the game. Buffing damage makes the game objectively worse for skilled players. I don't know why robots need to kill other robots in a single cycle, it discourages teamwork, reduces skill and isn't the hallmark of Mech game. We discussed it at length here: war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/11362/buffing-damage-contracts-time-hurtsI do believe in time, Pixonic may remedy this. Or at least I hope. Until then we should keep on them about it and do what hi5 says, select a robots that counters a DB Griffin. A Plasma Griffin beats a DB Griffin easily if jump available. Yes the thread you quote is amazing. And one reason I wanted to keep this topic alive. I also believe it to be unnecessary to take down a bot in a single volley. I was looking for counter arguments. Deadeye makes the point of how tough it is to get into range. So your reward is high damage. Interesting thought. |
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Post by adrenachrome on Jul 27, 2017 15:47:43 GMT -5
 perfect example of the OP orkan. Level 10 fujin... Someone remind me why I even have an ancile.... STUPID |
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Jul 27, 2017 16:13:12 GMT -5
Full level 12 Griff DB strike does 167,828, how is your 199k hp bot dieing in a single unload cycle?
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Jul 27, 2017 16:16:34 GMT -5
Btw, @ 300m Orks are the shortest range wep (outside of the thunder). Hence high risk/high reward for the player. The buff was needed to make them more of a threat to the plethora of Anciles on the field. A DB can now take down a full Ancile and deal a decent amount of damage to the underlying bot. That's why the damage buff was needed.
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inspirace
Trusted Contributor 
Posts: 2,670
Karma: 2,959
Pilot name: inspirace
Platform: iOS
Clan: NEW
League: Champion
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Rog, Griff, Carn, Doc, Rhino, Haechi, Kumiho, Bulgasari, Mender, Inquisitor, Spectre, Strider,
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Post by inspirace on Jul 27, 2017 16:19:34 GMT -5
Orkan bots have a weakness, that after the volley they become defenseless. if you somehow dodge (e.g. jump) and survive the salvo, you can win against them. also, as far as I understand, Orkans have been also nerfed in some way, by reduced firing rates and rocket speeds.
I don' have much to complain about Orkans after 2.9.3. a duel between two Orkan Rogs is one of the most exciting things for me atm.
I don't like Gekko/Treb/Spyra buffs though,
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Post by Dredd77 on Jul 27, 2017 16:26:07 GMT -5
perfect example of the OP orkan. Level 10 fujin... Someone remind me why I even have an ancile.... STUPID Bear in mind that if someone with Orkans gets inside of your Ancile bubble, then your Ancile won't protect you. Don't know if that's what possibly happened here... |
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Post by GuitarGuy on Jul 27, 2017 16:28:56 GMT -5
Why did orkans get buffed? I have 199k hit points in my Leo... A griff with orkan pinata can take all 200k hit points in a single volley and fast too.... A few seconds. How is this balanced? How is being able to zero a bot instantly a good thing? I am saving for orkans right now. I believe once I add orkans and a 5th slot I will sky rocket leagues.... Seems a little over powered. Or is this required in higher levels? I believe they were buffed to counter all the shield bots that are out there and to balance them against all the weapons that got a buff also. Orkans are the premier short range medium brawler weapon and require skill and patience to get in close enough to a target to destroy it. Its damage is the reward for such skills. Being able to kill a bot instantly is very common in the game, just not as common for the Leo because of its huge health stats but it does happen. Orks are a standard load out in the higher meta so get used to seeing them and respecting the mechs that have them. I wouldnt assume they will be your "silver bullet" to sky rocket though the leagues as you stated. Get too aggressive with any loadout and expect to get hammered by a red running the same thing. Its my opinion that the Leo is a bit too healthy and it tends to give new pilots a false sense of invincibility. I feel if you learn the ropes with lighter more fragile bots your playing style will adapt better as you progress through the meta and make you a more effective pilot. |
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Post by moody on Jul 27, 2017 16:42:40 GMT -5
I play a lot of orks.
I have yet to kill off a leo in a single cycle. In fact a leo is one of the most likely bots to be able to get me before I can get him. I would far prefer plasma in those particular cases.
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Post by adrenachrome on Jul 27, 2017 16:46:26 GMT -5
Full level 12 Griff DB strike does 167,828, how is your 199k hp bot dieing in a single unload cycle? That's a great question.... |
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Jul 27, 2017 16:46:58 GMT -5
Orkans
Cost: Au
Ag to max: 56.2M
Time to max: 15 days
Tarans
Cost: Wsp
Ag to max: 48M
Time to max: 12.9 days
Tulumbas
Cost: Ag
Ag to max: 47.6M
Time to max: 12.5 days
Just for comparison's sake on overall costs and what type of value you'd place when comparing like-for-like weapons systems.
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Post by adrenachrome on Jul 27, 2017 16:49:00 GMT -5
perfect example of the OP orkan. Level 10 fujin... Someone remind me why I even have an ancile.... STUPID Bear in mind that if someone with Orkans gets inside of your Ancile bubble, then your Ancile won't protect you. Don't know if that's what possibly happened here... Nope, that's why I took the screenshot. It was 1v1. As you can see we both died. He was at about 150 meters. My fujin is level 10. That's 220k hit points with health and shield.... |
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Post by adrenachrome on Jul 27, 2017 16:53:38 GMT -5
I play a lot of orks. I have yet to kill off a leo in a single cycle. In fact a leo is one of the most likely bots to be able to get me before I can get him. I would far prefer plasma in those particular cases. In my original post. That was my thinking. I knew I would go down. I just didn't think it would be so fast in the initial burst... I expected to do SOME damage before I went down.... But I barely scratched him. Lesson learned. I will not try this in my Leo again. But the dilemma is my fujin has roughly the same hp versus rockets.... That defeats the purpose of the bot. Just a big F-U.... In your face. I kill your ancile bot with my rockets.... Makes no sense to me... |
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Jul 27, 2017 16:54:46 GMT -5
Full level 12 Griff DB strike does 167,828, how is your 199k hp bot dieing in a single unload cycle? That's a great question.... I'd recommend recording your matches and capture your full health Leo being hit by a single DB strike and getting killed. At the post battle screen show the DB bot weapon/levels and show your Leo's level. Submit this recording to Pix if your bot is getting hit for "more" damage than is possible. This is how the Ancile shield bug was fixed. A player recorded his Carn shield getting hit by a full Fury Trident volley (61k damage) and his Carns shield was fully depleted. He recorded all the way to the post battle screen to show his Carnage's shield should have had "more" hp than the Fury volley. Pix then fixed the double damage bug. |
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Post by adrenachrome on Jul 27, 2017 16:56:08 GMT -5
Why did orkans get buffed? I have 199k hit points in my Leo... A griff with orkan pinata can take all 200k hit points in a single volley and fast too.... A few seconds. How is this balanced? How is being able to zero a bot instantly a good thing? I am saving for orkans right now. I believe once I add orkans and a 5th slot I will sky rocket leagues.... Seems a little over powered. Or is this required in higher levels? I believe they were buffed to counter all the shield bots that are out there and to balance them against all the weapons that got a buff also. Orkans are the premier short range medium brawler weapon and require skill and patience to get in close enough to a target to destroy it. Its damage is the reward for such skills. Being able to kill a bot instantly is very common in the game, just not as common for the Leo because of its huge health stats but it does happen. Orks are a standard load out in the higher meta so get used to seeing them and respecting the mechs that have them. I wouldnt assume they will be your "silver bullet" to sky rocket though the leagues as you stated. Get too aggressive with any loadout and expect to get hammered by a red running the same thing. Its my opinion that the Leo is a bit too healthy and it tends to give new pilots a false sense of invincibility. I feel if you learn the ropes with lighter more fragile bots your playing style will adapt better as you progress through the meta and make you a more effective pilot. You have to get close with punishers and thunders, tempest. But you don't get an instant kill..... What makes orkans special? |
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Post by adrenachrome on Jul 27, 2017 16:57:44 GMT -5
That's a great question.... I'd recommend recording your matches and capture your full health Leo being hit by a single DB strike and getting killed. At the post battle screen show the DB bot weapon/levels and show your Leo's level. Submit this recording to Pix if your bot is getting hit for "more" damage than is possible. This is how the Ancile shield bug was fixed. A player recorded his Carn shield getting hit by a full Fury Trident volley (61k damage) and his Carns shield was fully depleted. He recorded all the way to the post battle screen to show his Carnage's shield should have had "more" hp than the Fury volley. Pix then fixed the double damage bug. Great info. Thank you |
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Post by 0ppressor on Jul 27, 2017 17:02:24 GMT -5
Bear in mind that if someone with Orkans gets inside of your Ancile bubble, then your Ancile won't protect you. Don't know if that's what possibly happened here... Nope, that's why I took the screenshot. It was 1v1. As you can see we both died. He was at about 150 meters. My fujin is level 10. That's 220k hit points with health and shield.... are you 100% positive that that other red just around the corner wasn't also shooting at you? |
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Post by mijapi300 on Jul 27, 2017 17:20:52 GMT -5
It's all about matchups. Slap an Ancile on your Leo with pinatas or mags and you can absorb the DB burst and probably take em out. An RDB can take a DB out from range if you know how to keep your distance over 300 - same with a plasma Galahad (but with less room for error). DB vs Ancilot is usually dependent upon the skill of each pilot, as a good ambush can get the DB inside the Ancile to unload or the Lance can stay just under 350 and take the DB out with Tarans and the Ancile as buffer. Best tip is to identify the red bot and build as far away from them as possible - if you match up well then engage, if not then suppress or find other prey. Buddy up with another blue when you can. Example: thunder Carnage works really well with a physical shield blue teammate for rushing. Shield bot blocks any plasma, Carnage block splash and combined weapons strength can overpower multiple reds. You seem to have misunderstood my post... I am not discussing map or bot attack strategy. I am talking current weapon buffs. Please stay on topic. Pixonic is trying to make money. To do so, they don't need to worry about true mech war fans, because we're a very small niche in their overall target market. If they aimed just to please us, they'd hardly make any money. They need to appeal to the more casual gamer, which they're doing while still considering what we want. And I personally appreciate that approach. They need to make money after all, and they still produce an incredible game. |
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Post by adrenachrome on Jul 27, 2017 17:26:06 GMT -5
Nope, that's why I took the screenshot. It was 1v1. As you can see we both died. He was at about 150 meters. My fujin is level 10. That's 220k hit points with health and shield.... are you 100% positive that that other red just around the corner wasn't also shooting at you? Yes 100%. As you can see it's the 1st minute of the game. No other bots made the corner yet. The griff used his jump to boost out into range. I thought oh great he is trapped... Can't jump away. Then he killed me.... I was pretty surprised. Since moving to expert I have been seeing champion league guys every match. I have pretty much quit playing until I can upgrade and purchase some bots and weapons... I.E. Orkans |
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Post by hi5 on Jul 27, 2017 18:14:06 GMT -5
It's all about matchups. Slap an Ancile on your Leo with pinatas or mags and you can absorb the DB burst and probably take em out. An RDB can take a DB out from range if you know how to keep your distance over 300 - same with a plasma Galahad (but with less room for error). DB vs Ancilot is usually dependent upon the skill of each pilot, as a good ambush can get the DB inside the Ancile to unload or the Lance can stay just under 350 and take the DB out with Tarans and the Ancile as buffer. Best tip is to identify the red bot and build as far away from them as possible - if you match up well then engage, if not then suppress or find other prey. Buddy up with another blue when you can. Example: thunder Carnage works really well with a physical shield blue teammate for rushing. Shield bot blocks any plasma, Carnage block splash and combined weapons strength can overpower multiple reds. You seem to have misunderstood my post... I am not discussing map or bot attack strategy. I am talking current weapon buffs. Please stay on topic. A fair response, but I find it more productive to discuss strategies for countering a situation vs discussing why Pix makes a particular decision. You asked "How is this balanced?" and I responded with my opinion that there are matchups that can counter a DB and provide balance. If you're only interested in responses to the first question in your post - IMO (as I don't work for Pix) Orks lost some luster after all rockets got the reload while firing mechanic. It's called a "Death Button" build because it can zero an enemy fast - that is the only real benefit of Orks given their 300m range. |
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Post by bronzeknee on Jul 27, 2017 18:23:31 GMT -5
You seem to have misunderstood my post... I am not discussing map or bot attack strategy. I am talking current weapon buffs. Please stay on topic. A fair response, but I find it more productive to discuss strategies for countering a situation vs discussing why Pix makes a particular decision. You asked "How is this balanced?" and I responded with my opinion that there are matchups that can counter a DB and provide balance. If you're only interested in responses to the first question in your post - IMO (as I don't work for Pix) Orks lost some luster after all rockets got the reload while firing mechanic. It's called a "Death Button" build because it can zero an enemy fast - that is the only real benefit of Orks given their 300m range. I wouldn't say Orkans lost any luster after all rockets got the reload mechanics, that doesn't really make sense. If I am physically stronger than you, but then you go on and work out spree and we are now even in strength... people wouldn't say I lost any of my luster, but they would say you gained some. I also want to say that the DB Griffin deals more than 167,828 damage in 2.92, that figure based on old numbers. Also the reload mechanic means that while you might not finish off a robot with your cycle damage, you reload a rocket quite quickly after finish the cycle. |
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Post by ༒ƜƦƛƖƬӇ༒ on Jul 27, 2017 18:34:48 GMT -5
My first trip into Gold I bought and started leveling Orks, as it seemed those where what I needed.. In the 2.9.1 update i slipped back to Silver2 because I did't have Orks lvl'd and wasn't prepared for the update.. I now have 8 Orks at lvl8, 6 tulus at lvl 8 , Pins and Pinata's at lvl9 so I can run DB and RDB setups in the higher leagues.. and be able to compete.. I have 2 Leos I rarely use because they seem more like sitting ducks as you get into the higher leagues.. same with Spider Bots.. they can be too slow to react..
I think the Nerf to the Tulu's and the slight buff to the Orks in the last update was to balance the Orks vs Tulu's.. AU vs AG.. Maybe they should have nerfed them both a bit, nerfing the Tulu's a bit more.. Don't know I don't get hung up thinking about all that too much..
BUT all that said.. in the end Orks are an AU weapon.. Orks/Pins are just a lot of pain in a few seconds..
AND the ORks reload and you can keep firing as they reload.. So that also might have added into the equation
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Jul 27, 2017 18:56:08 GMT -5
A fair response, but I find it more productive to discuss strategies for countering a situation vs discussing why Pix makes a particular decision. You asked "How is this balanced?" and I responded with my opinion that there are matchups that can counter a DB and provide balance. If you're only interested in responses to the first question in your post - IMO (as I don't work for Pix) Orks lost some luster after all rockets got the reload while firing mechanic. It's called a "Death Button" build because it can zero an enemy fast - that is the only real benefit of Orks given their 300m range. I wouldn't say Orkans lost any luster after all rockets got the reload mechanics, that doesn't really make sense. If I am physically stronger than you, but then you go on and work out spree and we are now even in strength... people wouldn't say I lost any of my luster, but they would say you gained some. I also want to say that the DB Griffin deals more than 167,828 damage in 2.92, that figure based on old numbers. Also the reload mechanic means that while you might not finish off a robot with your cycle damage, you reload a rocket quite quickly after finish the cycle. No, the numbers take into account current 2.9.2. This is calculated off of: Orks: 1886 per rocket, 32 rockets = 60352 Pinatas: 1386 per rocket, 17 rockets = 23562 This was based on the damage increase (and Pinatas additional rocket). It's not exact, but it's pretty spot on. Just checked and maxed Orks are 1890 (verse 1886) so Orks are under counting by 256 total damage, not enough to cover the near 30k discrepancy. |
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Post by mijapi300 on Jul 27, 2017 19:26:06 GMT -5
Full level 12 Griff DB strike does 167,828, how is your 199k hp bot dieing in a single unload cycle? One problem with this calculation is it only accounts for 64 Orkans and 34 Pinatas. It doesn't factor into how many rockets are reloaded and fired prior to emptying the weapons. Also, I would venture to guess that by "one volley" he's actually talking about a full volley plus 2-3 additional seconds of reload fire after they're empty. |
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Post by agitator on Jul 27, 2017 19:32:27 GMT -5
I believe they were buffed to counter all the shield bots that are out there and to balance them against all the weapons that got a buff also. Orkans are the premier short range medium brawler weapon and require skill and patience to get in close enough to a target to destroy it. Its damage is the reward for such skills. Being able to kill a bot instantly is very common in the game, just not as common for the Leo because of its huge health stats but it does happen. Orks are a standard load out in the higher meta so get used to seeing them and respecting the mechs that have them. I wouldnt assume they will be your "silver bullet" to sky rocket though the leagues as you stated. Get too aggressive with any loadout and expect to get hammered by a red running the same thing. Its my opinion that the Leo is a bit too healthy and it tends to give new pilots a false sense of invincibility. I feel if you learn the ropes with lighter more fragile bots your playing style will adapt better as you progress through the meta and make you a more effective pilot. You have to get close with punishers and thunders, tempest. But you don't get an instant kill..... What makes orkans special? punishers are a silver weapon orkans cost gold. Thunders cycle higher damage than orkans do at close range and will kill almost instantly, however only carnage can really feild that effectively and your Leo can probably win that race to death against carnage. Tempest is a long range weapon. |
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Post by KaneoheGrown on Jul 27, 2017 19:54:07 GMT -5
Full level 12 Griff DB strike does 167,828, how is your 199k hp bot dieing in a single unload cycle? One problem with this calculation is it only accounts for 64 Orkans and 34 Pinatas. It doesn't factor into how many rockets are reloaded and fired prior to emptying the weapons. Also, I would venture to guess that by "one volley" he's actually talking about a full volley plus 2-3 additional seconds of reload fire after they're empty. Ask and you shall receive. I’m going to make the assumption that the reload mechanic is automatically loading and shooting… Orkans (Rockets per second based on reload time and capacity) 32 Rockets / 23 Seconds Reload = 1.39 Rockets Shot per second (constant fire mechanic) (How many additional rockets are shot during the Orkan unload) 3.2 seconds to unload / 1.39 Rockets Shot per second = 2.3 rockets fired during unload (Damage of the additional rockets shot due to constant reload) 2.3 rockets * 1890 damage per rocket = 4347 damage (Multiplied by 2 for the pair of Orkans) 4347 * 2 Orkans = 8694 total additional damage Pinatas (Rockets per second based on reload time and capacity) 17 Rockets / 15 Seconds Reload = 1.13 Rockets Shot per second (constant fire mechanic) (How many additional rockets are shot during the Orkan unload) 3.2 second Orkan’s unload / 1.13 Rockets shot per second = 2.83 rockets fired during Orkan unload (Damage of the additional rockets shot due to constant reload) 2.83 * 1386 damage per rocket = 3922 damage (Multiplied by 2 for the pair of Pinatas) 3922 * 2 Pinatas = 7844 total additional damage (Total additional damage) Orkans 8694 + Pinata 7844 = 16538 additional damage (Added to the initial unload) 168084+16538=184622 (Remaining health of Leo based on recalculated DB strike) 199000 – 184622 = 14378 remaining health (Proportion of health as compared to our damage dealt from the 3.2 seconds of loading mechanic rockets) 14378/16538= 0.869391704 (Multiplied against Orkan unload time, we have the remaining time needed to deplete remaining Leo health) 3.2*0.869391704 = 2.78 seconds of additional fire (Total time to kill the Leo) 3.2+2.78 = 5.98 seconds 5.98 seconds to kill a 199k HP Leo is getting close to double the unload time. Still no way that much damage can be compressed into 3.2 seconds. Additionally, I make a major leap that the DB he was facing was maxed out. Each additional level that the weapons were below 12 significantly impacts these time horizon calculations. Still doesn’t jive to me that a 199HP bot was insta killed by a DB Griff (unless there’s another damage bug we haven’t noticed). |
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