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Post by bronzeknee on Jul 12, 2017 2:59:06 GMT -5
Patch 2.9.2 offers damage buffs to a significant amount of weapons in the game. Though I do agree that Pins and Tulumbas were too strong, damage buffs across the board is a huge mistake. Pixonic has noted that the top tiers of the ladder aren’t as "fun" due to a lack of diversity and I’m going to use that as a springboard to explain why more damage makes the game objectively worse, why top tier has been suffering so much because of this, and how this patch will make things worse for players of every skill level.
Why isn’t top tier fun?
Top tier isn’t fun in the eyes of Pixonic and many members of the community because of the lack of diversity. I’ll let Pixonic explain:
“In lower leagues the picture happens to be much broader, but not because people there don’t yet have an access to higher tier robots — not necessarily. People there are much more keen to experiment. If we go higher, min-maxing aspect slowly but surely takes over. Which is alright, because, you know, why would you go for a suboptimal build when your goal is to be the best among the best?
The reason for that? There aren’t many variables to play around with. You take Galahad and Lancelot for supreme protection. You pick Griffin if you want a jail free card with its ability to quickly jump into safety. You pick Fury (or Butch, if you prefer) for long range sniping. And that’s pretty much it."
"If you want to climb leagues it’s better to play the most powerful robot builds instead of those you consider most fun. And that kind of sucks, we agree.”
Let’s examine that min-maxing aspect a bit more and why we can’t run certain robots and weapons with success at the top.
Efficiency gap between armor and damage
First, I want to take a peek about at the difference between armor and damage in terms of effectiveness, which is a gap that increases even more with this release. One of the pieces of advice you'll frequently see given to new players is that they should keep their weapons 2 levels ahead of their Robots, and that is sound advice because damage out scales armor.
This is exemplified by comparing the Leo (one of the Robots with the best armor scaling) with the Thunder.
Leo -
Level 6 – 155,000 armor
Level 12 – 226,000 armor
46% bonus armor going from 6 to 12.
Thunder-
Level 5 – 8432 damage per shot
Level 12 – 16304 damage per shot
93% bonus damage going from 5 to 12.
A level 12 Leo with a level 6 Thunder would be easily defeated by a level 6 Leo with a level 12 Thunder. And that doesn’t consider the fact the Leo also has 3 other weapons to level, which skews damage even more! As you progress in the game, Robots take far less time to kill.That difference, between how armor and weapons scale with levels explains a lot about how the game changes as you rise. Consider a creating close range Robot for top tier; you naturally have to compare to it the other top knifers in the game, with a special focus on damage because it outscales armor so much. In the end, just about everything has to be measured against the Death Button Griffin (Orkan/Pinata), because it has such high damage potential it can burst down nearly any Robot in a single cycle.
Thus, the only knifers that are viable at the top then either are so tanky they can withstand the barrage of rockets (Ancilot), or can dodge the rockets via mobility (other Griffins with Jump, Galahads and Gareth being able to outrun rocket). That is why the meta is so limited at the top; damage is so important in the game compared to armor that you have to have a high damage Robot. If your opponent can burst you down in a single cycle, then your Robot either needs to also have that potential, or have the potential to survive it. And the high armor Robots (Leo, Boa, Raijin) have neither without greatly sacrificing damage. Raising weapon damage makes Robots with high armor even worse because they sacrifice weapons for that armor, further damaging the viability of builds that were already weak. At lower levels a Death Button Griffin often can’t burst down an opponent in a single cycle, and thus the meta opens up, because many Robots can survive the cycle and then have the opportunity to deal return damage.
But there is something even more insidious about high damage, it contracts the length of battles.
Contracting time decreases the quality of play
A good pilot wants the battle to last as long as possible, because the longer he is in the fight, the more decisions he can make that positively affect the outcome of the battle and the more time he has to allow his skill to show. This is why we say inferior fighters have a punchers chance against a superior fighter in MMA and boxing. If you rush your opponent and get lucky with a punch, you might beat someone a lot more skilled. But if the match goes for a long period of time, the better fighter have more time to utilize their superior skills, and the lesser fighter is going to be worn down.
High burst damage can contract the time players have to make decisions, which limits the number of decisions that can be made, and in turn that reduces the amount of skill they can show. And thus counter play opportunities are greatly reduced. This is illustrated well in this quote regarding game design from a French game designer:
“Think about driving a car. What happens at 30 km/h? You're in control. Now increase to 50? Still fully doable, but your margin of error does decrease. Now increase to 70, 100, 150, 300, 500—at some point the accident can no longer be avoided and even the best drivers enter the realm of the “unforgivable”. The simple fact that you maintain your driving activity makes the crash inevitable. You lose control and you make mistakes by force. This mechanism is “the contraction of time”. Blitz chess is another dazzling example of that: pressured by time, world-caliber players start making absolutely grotesque, newbie-like blunders. Contracting time decreases the quality of play, even if the competition can somewhat stand for a while (though increasingly turned inwards, towards oneself). Should you proceed for too long in that direction, skill itself would start to disappear, replaced with the functional equivalent of luck.”
Think also about the interaction of a sniper who can kill someone in one shot in a FPS. Unless you have unlimited access to cover (in which case the sniper is 100% not viable) the sniper will have a chance to pick you off. While utilizing cover well is a skill you can use to mitigate their chances of hitting you, a good sniper will still hit people. In the end that means the interaction is essentially one sided, the skill of the sniper decides whether you live or die in an instant, even if you play perfectly. That is why the AWP dominates Counterstrike, because good players know if they play well, there is nothing their opponent can do against their well-placed shots that kill in an instant. It is a terrible interaction because one player is completely at the mercy of the other, and research has shown that that feeling leads to player frustration. We all want to feel like we have a chance to play our way out of situation if we play our best.
Perhaps a great example of this is remembering the first few War Robot games you played. Everyone was piloting a Destrier that does very little damage. Good pilots aim well, utilize cover when reloading and circle strafe their opponents to avoid damage. There are so many opportunities to show skill, so many opportunities for counter play, and for comebacks, because the weapons don’t deal critical damage. There is time to make a mistake and recover.
The interaction allows for so much more skill than when a Death Button Griffin comes flying in over your head and the rockets come crashing down. There isn’t time to recover from a mistake in that situation.
And that is partly why people prefer the lower tiers. Burst damage doesn’t just ruin many fun Robot builds, it contracts time, reduces skill, and leads to player frustration. That is why the top tier isn't "fun."
Every time Pixonic increases damage, they risk bleeding some skill out from the game. I’d like to see them revert these changes and balance the Pin and Tulumbas in other ways, there is more than enough damage in the game.
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Post by Firebeard on Jul 12, 2017 3:18:05 GMT -5
When I first started playing, it was damn near perfect.
I don't know or understand where these changes are coming from ..
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Post by SGT D00M! on Jul 12, 2017 3:24:31 GMT -5
I won't lie, I expected to read this and tell you to quit whining, but that was very well written and thought out. Good job, and good points. I'm kinda digging the changes for now and I like quick pick up games, but I see what you are saying.
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Post by sharpmango on Jul 12, 2017 3:49:05 GMT -5
Excellent points. To complement your racing car analogy, it is also a bit like 20/20 cricket.
Cricket has generally 'evolved' from a 5 day affair to a 3.5 hour sprint.
Test Cricket would consist of a great degree of skill and methodical play. Sometimes batsmen would just play themselves in by defensive blocking for an hour. The new ball would slow the game down. The last hour might lead to a little batting flourish.
Now with 2020, every ball is attempted to be hit for a 4 or a 6. The highlights are emphasised and the method is de-emphasised. Hell I see so much ugliness in modern batting now which wouldn't be culturally tolerated 30 years ago. That ugliness only exists because it gets runs.
I guess in a very small way, War Robots is moving towards this model also. If we are indeed going to bot out quicker, everything will be focussed on achieving the death button setup. He who shoots first wins and skill will be lessened.
On a personal note, I am questioning the need to spend days and weeks levelling bots which last less than 60 seconds on the field.
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Post by pirateb0t on Jul 12, 2017 3:57:22 GMT -5
As someone who used to play fps games a lot and at a pretty high level clan wise I completely disagree that less skilled people will just start owning the game. Think about it..in a fps game like counterstrike most people can arm themselves from a similar arsenal. A mp5 the enemy is using is not significantly better than the mp5 you are using. It's just the same gun. A newbie with an awp isn't going to win against a pro with a mp5 who is just a far better player.
What differentiates skill is environment awareness, aim, and reflexes. Then above and beyond that is map knowledge which all the "elite" level players know like the back of their hand.
Watch elite players in a fps sometime on youtube. Their reflexes and aim is just incredible.
You can hand an average or above average player the same gear but they will get their butts handed to them still against an elite skilled player.
Pixonic is narrowing the levels gap, broadening weapons variability, and creating diminishing returns to said levels. That is all positive IMO. It's anti-p2w if you think about it.
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Post by TravLar on Jul 12, 2017 4:11:07 GMT -5
Excellent points. To complement your racing car analogy, it is also a bit like 20/20 cricket. Cricket has generally 'evolved' from a 5 day affair to a 3.5 hour sprint. Test Cricket would consist of a great degree of skill and methodical play. Sometimes batsmen would just play themselves in by defensive blocking for an hour. The new ball would slow the game down. The last hour might lead to a little batting flourish. Now with 2020, every ball is attempted to be hit for a 4 or a 6. The highlights are emphasised and the method is de-emphasised. Hell I see so much ugliness in modern batting now which wouldn't be culturally tolerated 30 years ago. That ugliness only exists because it gets runs. I guess in a very small way, War Robots is moving towards this model also. If we are indeed going to bot out quicker, everything will be focussed on achieving the death button setup. He who shoots first wins and skill will be lessened. On a personal note, I am questioning the need to spend days and weeks levelling bots which last less than 60 seconds on the field. Cricket! Yay, a player from a cricket playing nation! Cricket & Numbers, War Robots & Numbers... Very similar in that respect and the strategies of the game.. Off topic - sorry guys |
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 4:23:17 GMT -5
I'd say that increasing damage is NOT speeding up the game.
It's more like reducing margin for an error. While in lvl1 Destrier you can miss 10 shots and still win, in lvl12 Rog vs lvl12 Rog you need to land each shot perfect, or you will be dead very fast.
And giving it a second though, Pix is trying to move the game FURTHER, not shorter. I.e. increased distance of the battle.
That's why all these Gekko\Hydra\Molot\Trebuchet buffs.
More than that,to keep knifers viable they naturally increased knifer's arsenal damage.
And even more, NOT to make this game onto a Sniper's paradise, they introduced Moon,and now working on
The Valley:
and Ship (I guess):
Where snipers would be mostly irrelevant.
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Post by HEATHEN HERETIC on Jul 12, 2017 4:56:21 GMT -5
When the original developers left Pixonic it seems they might have taken all the best ideas with them too. The game looked to be going in a more balanced direction in terms of brawling vs. strategy when they were on board. Pixonic just seems to be on a mission to take away all of the strategic and tactical aspects of this game imo. More smaller maps, more powerful while faster and weird jumping robots, these new weapons buffs, all of it leads down one road to a perfect brawlers and spawn campers paradise. And away from any strategic aspects of play.
Anyone who played with the dash bots on the beta servers has seen how fast that light bot can traverse a map. Even Yamantau on which I have clocked one making the crossing from enemy spawn to friendly spawn in under 30 seconds. Anyone besides me who's been dropped into a match 30 seconds or more after the match has started might be seeing what I'm getting at. And the medium bot isn't that far behind.
I haven't been seeing much strategy or even diverse tactics in the game anymore. It's just close and fire 'til you drop most of the time now. And don't go near the water with your baby bots. Them big bad 'gator bots will eat them up posthaste.
I've set aside my lighter hanger profiles for that reason hoping that the eluded to "pick your match" feature gets implemented.
I've noticed a real downturn in squading in the game of late as well. At least I'm not seeing as many squads in the game as I used to just a few months ago, back in the early spring. My squad player pools are drying up. Anyone else missing some regulars?
I smell decay and decline in the game. I see a lot of players passing through but not too many stopping. These ridiculous "specials" they keep spamming their game with are designed for the noobs who haven't a clue. The only one actually worth the money is the 300 Au for 0.99¢. Pixonic's stocks might be fine but they've got more than this toe in the ocean too.
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Post by DarkVagabond on Jul 12, 2017 5:57:32 GMT -5
I won't lie, I expected to read this and tell you to quit whining, but that was very well written and thought out. Good job, and good points. I'm kinda digging the changes for now and I like quick pick up games, but I see what you are saying. This. I was expecting exactly the same. You made very coherent points with appropriate analogies. You are right. This is exactly why top level play is not fun. And if you couple this with the current MM that pits Champion League Players against Diamond Players, it makes their playing experience even more miserable. I'm a diehard fan of this game, but my support is being severely tested... |
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Post by ΒΣRΖΣRKΛ²³ on Jul 12, 2017 6:27:07 GMT -5
Well yes and no..I can kinda follow but I think even with death buttons there is room for skill..I killed a lot of rdb's, but every once in a while you meet one that just owns that built. There might be meta builds, and everybody will have success to a degree, but some more than others. So skill is always a factor.
But this game is headed more in the direction of arcade shooters than robot sims right now
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 6:57:34 GMT -5
Well yes and no..I can kinda follow but I think even with death buttons there is room for skill..I killed a lot of rdb's, but every once in a while you meet one that just owns that built. There might be meta builds, and everybody will have success to a degree, but some more than others. So skill is always a factor. But this game is headed more in the direction of arcade shooters than robot sims right now The only thing I don't like about where it's headed is the cartoonish design and robot movements that I don't "feel" right. Other than that - there is a skill, a lot of it, it's just gameplay style that is everchanging. If this is not a rant - you might be interested in seeing how gameplay evolved from 3 years ago, this is the actual 2014 April footage: And please tell me that there's a skill required for this: |
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tugipus
Destrier
Posts: 45
Karma: 21
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Post by tugipus on Jul 12, 2017 7:00:58 GMT -5
Patch 2.9.2 offers damage buffs to a significant amount of weapons in the game. Though I do agree that Pins and Tulumbas were too strong, damage buffs across the board is a huge mistake. Pixonic has noted that the top tiers of the ladder aren’t as "fun" due to a lack of diversity and I’m going to use that as a springboard to explain why more damage makes the game objectively worse, and why top tier has been suffering so much because of this, and how this patch will make things worse for players of every skill level. Why isn’t top tier fun?
Top tier isn’t fun in the eyes of Pixonic and many members of the community because of the lack of diversity. I’ll let Pixonic explain: “In lower leagues the picture happens to be much broader, but not because people there don’t yet have an access to higher tier robots — not necessarily. People there are much more keen to experiment. If we go higher, min-maxing aspect slowly but surely takes over. Which is alright, because, you know, why would you go for a suboptimal build when your goal is to be the best among the best?
The reason for that? There aren’t many variables to play around with. You take Galahad and Lancelot for supreme protection. You pick Griffin if you want a jail free card with its ability to quickly jump into safety. You pick Fury (or Butch, if you prefer) for long range sniping. And that’s pretty much it."
"If you want to climb leagues it’s better to play the most powerful robot builds instead of those you consider most fun. And that kind of sucks, we agree.”Let’s examine that min-maxing aspect a bit more and why we can’t run certain robots and weapons with success at the top. Efficiency gap between armor and damage
First, I want to take a peek about at the difference between armor and damage in terms of effectiveness, which is a gap that increases even more with this release. One of the pieces of advice you'll frequently see given to new players is that they should keep their weapons 2 levels ahead of their Robots, and that is sound advice because damage out scales armor. This is exemplified by comparing the Leo (one of the Robots with the best armor scaling) with the Thunder. Leo -Level 6 – 155,000 armor Level 12 – 226,000 armor 46% bonus armor going from 6 to 12. Thunder-Level 5 – 8432 damage per shot Level 12 – 16304 damage per shot 93% bonus damage going from 5 to 12. A level 12 Leo with a level 6 Thunder would be easily defeated by a level 6 Leo with a level 12 Thunder. And that doesn’t consider the fact the Leo also has 3 other weapons to level, which skews damage even more! As you progress in the game, Robots take far less time to kill.That difference, between how armor and weapons scale with levels explains a lot about how the game changes as you rise. Consider a creating close range Robot for top tier; you naturally have to compare to it the other top knifers in the game, with a special focus on of damage. In the end, just about everything has to be measured against the Death Button Griffin (Orkan/Pinata), because it has such high damage potential it can burst down nearly any Robot in a single cycle. Thus, the only knifers that are viable at the top then either are so tanky they can withstand the barrage of rockets (Ancilot), or can dodge the rockets via mobility (other Griffins with Jump, Galahads and Gareth being able to outrun rocket). That is why the meta is so limited at the top. If your opponent can burst you down in a single cycle, then your Robot either needs to also have that potential, or have the potential to survive it. And the high armor Robots (Leo, Boa, Raijin) have neither without greatly sacrificing damage. Raising weapon damage makes Robots with high armor even worse, further damaging the viability of builds that were already weak. At lower levels a Death Button Griffin often can’t burst down an opponent in a single cycle, and thus the meta opens up, because many Robots can survive the cycle and then have the opportunity to deal return damage. But there is something even more insidious about high damage, it contracts the length of battles.
Contracting time decreases the quality of play
A good pilot wants the battle to last as long as possible, because the longer he is in the fight, the more decisions he can make that positively affect the outcome of the battle and the more time he has to allow his skill to show. This is why we say inferior fighters have a punchers chance against a superior fighter in MMA and boxing. If you rush your opponent and get lucky with a punch, you might beat someone a lot more skilled. But if the match goes for a long period of time, the better fighter have more time to utilize their superior skills, and the lesser fighter is going to be worn down. High burst damage can contract the time players have to make decision, which limits the number of decision that can be made, and in turn that reduces the amount of skill they can show. And thus counter play opportunities are greatly reduced. This is illustrated well in this quote regarding game design from a French game designer: “Think about driving a car. What happens at 30 km/h? You're in control. Now increase to 50? Still fully doable, but your margin of error does decrease. Now increase to 70, 100, 150, 300, 500—at some point the accident can no longer be avoided and even the best drivers enter the realm of the “unforgivable”. The simple fact that you maintain your driving activity makes the crash inevitable. You lose control and you make mistakes by force. This mechanism is “the contraction of time”. Blitz chess is another dazzling example of that: pressured by time, world-caliber players start making absolutely grotesque, newbie-like blunders. Contracting time decreases the quality of play, even if the competition can somewhat stand for a while (though increasingly turned inwards, towards oneself). Should you proceed for too long in that direction, skill itself would start to disappear, replaced with the functional equivalent of luck.”
Think also about the interaction of a sniper who can kill someone in one shot in a FPS. Unless you have unlimited access to cover (in which case the sniper is 100% not viable) the sniper will have a chance to pick you off. While utilizing cover well is a skill you can use to mitigate their chances of hitting you, a good sniper will still hit people. In the end that means the interaction is essentially one sided, the skill of the sniper decides whether you live or die in an instant, even if you play perfectly. That is why the AWP dominates Counterstrike, because good players know if they play well, there is nothing their opponent can do against their well-placed shots that kill in an instant. It is a terrible interaction because one player is completely at the mercy of the other, and research has shown that that feeling leads to player frustration. We all want to feel like we have a chance to play our way out of situation if we play our best. Perhaps a great example of this is remembering the first few War Robot games you played. Everyone was piloting a Destrier that does very little damage. Good pilots aim well, utilize cover when reloading and circle strafe their opponents to avoid damage. There are so many opportunities to show skill, so many opportunities for counter play, and for comebacks, because the weapons don’t deal critical damage. There is time to make a mistake and recover.
The interaction allows for so much more skill than when a Death Button Griffin comes flying in over your head and the rockets come crashing down. There isn’t time to recover from a mistake in that situation.
And that is partly why people prefer the lower tiers. Burst damage doesn’t just ruin many fun Robot builds, it contracts time, reduces skill, and leads to player frustration. That is why the top tier isn't "fun." Every time Pixonic has increases damage, they risk bleeding some skill out from the game. I’d like to see them revert these changes and balance the Pin and Tulumbas in other ways, there is more than enough damage in the game. Great post, thank you. I truly hope the developers will read it. |
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Post by carnage on Jul 12, 2017 7:03:23 GMT -5
Patch 2.9.2 offers damage buffs to a significant amount of weapons in the game. Though I do agree that Pins and Tulumbas were too strong, damage buffs across the board is a huge mistake. Pixonic has noted that the top tiers of the ladder aren’t as "fun" due to a lack of diversity and I’m going to use that as a springboard to explain why more damage makes the game objectively worse, and why top tier has been suffering so much because of this, and how this patch will make things worse for players of every skill level. [...] Every time Pixonic has increases damage, they risk bleeding some skill out from the game. I’d like to see them revert these changes and balance the Pin and Tulumbas in other ways, there is more than enough damage in the game.
Agree 100% with your message in general, great post.
About the bolded part of your message, well here is your answer : war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/11193/suggestions-balance-game
Nerf the RDB (I suggested a range at 450m), buff the robots that really need it (Gepard, Rhino, Raijin), buff the weapons that really need it (Punishers, Kang Dae, Ecus), and don't touch anything else. And there you go. You have a much better game.
Problem, people are opposed to nerf around here (and to talk frankly it feels like some people are opposed by default to any suggestion). So because of that "NO NERF" attitude which is still very strong among the community, Pix didn't want to nerf and went with a mass buffing instead. With the exact consequence that you describe in your message, unfortunately. |
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Post by Why? on Jul 12, 2017 7:05:41 GMT -5
Excellent points. To complement your racing car analogy, it is also a bit like 20/20 cricket. Cricket has generally 'evolved' from a 5 day affair to a 3.5 hour sprint. Test Cricket would consist of a great degree of skill and methodical play. Sometimes batsmen would just play themselves in by defensive blocking for an hour. The new ball would slow the game down. The last hour might lead to a little batting flourish. Now with 2020. 20/20? From a cricket playing nation? Subcontinent? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 9:16:26 GMT -5
Pixonic needs another roundtable about balance, not matchmaking and they have to LISTEN to the players this time.
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 9:31:50 GMT -5
Patch 2.9.2 offers damage buffs to a significant amount of weapons in the game. Though I do agree that Pins and Tulumbas were too strong, damage buffs across the board is a huge mistake. Pixonic has noted that the top tiers of the ladder aren’t as "fun" due to a lack of diversity and I’m going to use that as a springboard to explain why more damage makes the game objectively worse, and why top tier has been suffering so much because of this, and how this patch will make things worse for players of every skill level. [...] Every time Pixonic has increases damage, they risk bleeding some skill out from the game. I’d like to see them revert these changes and balance the Pin and Tulumbas in other ways, there is more than enough damage in the game.
Agree 100% with your message in general, great post.
About the bolded part of your message, well here is your answer : war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/11193/suggestions-balance-game
Nerf the RDB (I suggested a range at 450m), buff the robots that really need it (Gepard, Rhino, Raijin), buff the weapons that really need it (Punishers, Kang Dae, Ecus), and don't touch anything else. And there you go. You have a much better game.
Problem, people are opposed to nerf around here (and to talk frankly it feels like some people are opposed by default to any suggestion). So because of that "NO NERF" attitude which is still very strong among the community, Pix didn't want to nerf and went with a mass buffing instead. With the exact consequence that you describe in your message, unfortunately. Why do you need to buff ECU? O_o As an avid ECU Cossack user I can assure you it is awesome as is. |
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Post by mijapi300 on Jul 12, 2017 9:32:44 GMT -5
I agree that increasing damage speeds up the game, and ruins gameplay for skilled players. If robots are dying quicker, the game goes by quicker.
That said, and I know nobody wants to admit this, we are not Pixonic's target market. We aren't even in an overlapping section of a Venn Diagram representing their target market. If they lost every single one of us, it could likely go unnoticed.
The casual player is the overwhelming majority in mobile device gaming. There just are enough of us diehards that pay enough for us to matter to a for-profit company.
It's just a theory, but to me it makes sense, and kind of explains a lot. Why nothing we gripe about or suggestion even gets a moment of discussion with Pixonic. And why a 2 hour long discussion with some of the most diehard players of the game led to nothing. Not one idea or suggestion from any of those players was even mentioned outside/after the round table. Because of that, I would be shocked if the same players were even willing to spend another 2-3 hours of their time doing another one.
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Post by carnage on Jul 12, 2017 9:39:11 GMT -5
Agree 100% with your message in general, great post.
About the bolded part of your message, well here is your answer : war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/11193/suggestions-balance-game
Nerf the RDB (I suggested a range at 450m), buff the robots that really need it (Gepard, Rhino, Raijin), buff the weapons that really need it (Punishers, Kang Dae, Ecus), and don't touch anything else. And there you go. You have a much better game.
Problem, people are opposed to nerf around here (and to talk frankly it feels like some people are opposed by default to any suggestion). So because of that "NO NERF" attitude which is still very strong among the community, Pix didn't want to nerf and went with a mass buffing instead. With the exact consequence that you describe in your message, unfortunately. Why do you need to buff ECU?  As an avid ECU Cossack user I can assure you it is awesome as is. The very simple fact it is extremely exceptional to see some is enough to tell me it is not strong enough to be worth the use.
I have one actually, I tried one on a Rhino at one point, for fun. Didn't last long usually. I'd definitely like to buff it a bit, especially if mounted on a medium slot.
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 9:41:55 GMT -5
Why do you need to buff ECU? O_o As an avid ECU Cossack user I can assure you it is awesome as is. The very simple fact it is extremely exceptional to see some is enough to tell me it is not strong enough to be worth the use.
I have one actually, I tried one on a Rhino at one point, for fun. Didn't last long usually. I'd definitely like to buff it a bit, especially if mounted on a medium slot.
It is very strange. You might want to buff Gareth, Lancelot and a Raijin's shields then, too, because all of them are inferior to the ECU in terms of HP. |
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Post by tonyfla on Jul 12, 2017 9:45:38 GMT -5
Excellent points. To complement your racing car analogy, it is also a bit like 20/20 cricket. Cricket has generally 'evolved' from a 5 day affair to a 3.5 hour sprint. Test Cricket would consist of a great degree of skill and methodical play. Sometimes batsmen would just play themselves in by defensive blocking for an hour. The new ball would slow the game down. The last hour might lead to a little batting flourish. Now with 2020, every ball is attempted to be hit for a 4 or a 6. The highlights are emphasised and the method is de-emphasised. Hell I see so much ugliness in modern batting now which wouldn't be culturally tolerated 30 years ago. That ugliness only exists because it gets runs. I guess in a very small way, War Robots is moving towards this model also. If we are indeed going to bot out quicker, everything will be focussed on achieving the death button setup. He who shoots first wins and skill will be lessened. On a personal note, I am questioning the need to spend days and weeks levelling bots which last less than 60 seconds on the field. Cricket! Yay, a player from a cricket playing nation! Cricket & Numbers, War Robots & Numbers... Very similar in that respect and the strategies of the game.. Off topic - sorry guys There is only one definition of cricket: those annoying little bugs that chirp in the middle of the night and make you get up, hunt them down, and smash them. |
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Post by themisto on Jul 12, 2017 9:46:31 GMT -5
Patch 2.9.2 offers damage buffs to a significant amount of weapons in the game. Though I do agree that Pins and Tulumbas were too strong, damage buffs across the board is a huge mistake. Pixonic has noted that the top tiers of the ladder aren’t as "fun" due to a lack of diversity and I’m going to use that as a springboard to explain why more damage makes the game objectively worse, and why top tier has been suffering so much because of this, and how this patch will make things worse for players of every skill level. [...] Every time Pixonic has increases damage, they risk bleeding some skill out from the game. I’d like to see them revert these changes and balance the Pin and Tulumbas in other ways, there is more than enough damage in the game.
Agree 100% with your message in general, great post.
About the bolded part of your message, well here is your answer : war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/11193/suggestions-balance-game
Nerf the RDB (I suggested a range at 450m), buff the robots that really need it (Gepard, Rhino, Raijin), buff the weapons that really need it (Punishers, Kang Dae, Ecus), and don't touch anything else. And there you go. You have a much better game.
Problem, people are opposed to nerf around here (and to talk frankly it feels like some people are opposed by default to any suggestion). So because of that "NO NERF" attitude which is still very strong among the community, Pix didn't want to nerf and went with a mass buffing instead. With the exact consequence that you describe in your message, unfortunately. on the range, nah man, I think it would get too close to taran/magnum range. Id much rather if they made the trident/pin/tulu the same range of 550m and then nerf pin and tulu damage enough to compensate it's current predominance AND the range increase. They could even nerf the splash or just make the damage scale with the distance, where the rocket would deal the most damage when the hit right into the bot. thy could even further slow the firing rate; anythign but making pin tulu closer to taran/magnum range and away from trident range. |
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Post by Why? on Jul 12, 2017 9:48:11 GMT -5
Cricket! Yay, a player from a cricket playing nation! Cricket & Numbers, War Robots & Numbers... Very similar in that respect and the strategies of the game.. Off topic - sorry guys There is only one definition of cricket: those annoying little bugs that chirp in the middle of the night and make you get up, hunt them down, and smash them. Just because you got caveman bats as clubs, you shouldn't be jealous  |
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Post by carnage on Jul 12, 2017 10:06:02 GMT -5
The very simple fact it is extremely exceptional to see some is enough to tell me it is not strong enough to be worth the use.
I have one actually, I tried one on a Rhino at one point, for fun. Didn't last long usually. I'd definitely like to buff it a bit, especially if mounted on a medium slot.
It is very strange. You might want to buff Gareth, Lancelot and a Raijin's shields then, too, because all of them are inferior to the ECU in terms of HP. First it's not true. For instance a level 10 Gareth has a 142'000HP shield while the ECU would be 124'000HP. Second you can't compare anyway since one is in-built while one is taking a slot. See Carnage anciles which is weak for instance. The fact is that ECU are rarely, if ever, worth it. This is why buffing them could make sense. |
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Post by carnage on Jul 12, 2017 10:09:01 GMT -5
Agree 100% with your message in general, great post.
About the bolded part of your message, well here is your answer : war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/11193/suggestions-balance-game
Nerf the RDB (I suggested a range at 450m), buff the robots that really need it (Gepard, Rhino, Raijin), buff the weapons that really need it (Punishers, Kang Dae, Ecus), and don't touch anything else. And there you go. You have a much better game.
Problem, people are opposed to nerf around here (and to talk frankly it feels like some people are opposed by default to any suggestion). So because of that "NO NERF" attitude which is still very strong among the community, Pix didn't want to nerf and went with a mass buffing instead. With the exact consequence that you describe in your message, unfortunately. on the range, nah man, I think it would get too close to taran/magnum range. Id much rather if they made the trident/pin/tulu the same range of 550m and then nerf pin and tulu damage enough to compensate it's current predominance AND the range increase. They could even nerf the splash or just make the damage scale with the distance, where the rocket would deal the most damage when the hit right into the bot. thy could even further slow the firing rate; anythign but making pin tulu closer to taran/magnum range and away from trident range. You would lose the purpose of having RDB and Trident if they would have the same range. RDB have many advantages over Trident, give them an even bigger range and you make the problem bigger. Orkan have 300m of range. Trident 600m. If would really have made sense to have RDB in between at 450m. |
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 10:12:26 GMT -5
It is very strange. You might want to buff Gareth, Lancelot and a Raijin's shields then, too, because all of them are inferior to the ECU in terms of HP. First it's not true. For instance a level 10 Gareth has a 142'000HP shield while the ECU would be 124'000HP. Second you can't compare anyway since one is in-built while one is taking a slot. See Carnage anciles which is weak for instance. The fact is that ECU are rarely, if ever, worth it. This is why buffing them could make sense. Level12 Ecu is 178k hp. Level12 Gareth is 160k I see what you did there, please don't do that again or people might believe you :) More than that, once people understand that ECU works fine against Gekko/Hydra/Trebuchet/Molot and allow you to close in fast in the open while getting zero damage, we will see more of it in the field. |
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Post by bronzeknee on Jul 12, 2017 10:13:16 GMT -5
As someone who used to play fps games a lot and at a pretty high level clan wise I completely disagree that less skilled people will just start owning the game. Think about it..in a fps game like counterstrike most people can arm themselves from a similar arsenal. A mp5 the enemy is using is not significantly better than the mp5 you are using. It's just the same gun. A newbie with an awp isn't going to win against a pro with a mp5 who is just a far better player. What differentiates skill is environment awareness, aim, and reflexes. Then above and beyond that is map knowledge which all the "elite" level players know like the back of their hand. Watch elite players in a fps sometime on youtube. Their reflexes and aim is just incredible. You can hand an average or above average player the same gear but they will get their butts handed to them still against an elite skilled player. Pixonic is narrowing the levels gap, broadening weapons variability, and creating diminishing returns to said levels. That is all positive IMO. It's anti-p2w if you think about it. I didn't see anyone saying that less skilled people would start owning the game... Wrong thread? I think your theory is correct. Pixonic is like a rock band selling out and making pop music because they want cash. The game is moving quickly away from a Mech game and to a FPS like Overwatch with the upcoming Dash ability and with ever increasing damage. But I think in the end Mech games actually have a superior design. If you come out of cover in CS, you might die instantly, with no chance of making any more meaningful decisions in the game, no time to recover. So a bad player shooting randomly might accidentally kill a superior player, and that is frustrating experience. With a Mech game, if you come out of cover you'll take some damage, learn that was a bad idea, and return to cover with less armor, but not dead. You can still recover, still make decisions and such. |
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Post by HEATHEN HERETIC on Jul 12, 2017 10:17:23 GMT -5
on the range, nah man, I think it would get too close to taran/magnum range. Id much rather if they made the trident/pin/tulu the same range of 550m and then nerf pin and tulu damage enough to compensate it's current predominance AND the range increase. They could even nerf the splash or just make the damage scale with the distance, where the rocket would deal the most damage when the hit right into the bot. thy could even further slow the firing rate; anythign but making pin tulu closer to taran/magnum range and away from trident range. You would lose the purpose of having RDB and Trident if they would have the same range. RDB have many advantages over Trident, give them an even bigger range and you make the problem bigger. Orkan have 300m of range. Trident 600m. If would really have made sense to have RDB in between at 450m. I'd up the range of the Trident to 800. |
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Post by carnage on Jul 12, 2017 10:18:03 GMT -5
First it's not true. For instance a level 10 Gareth has a 142'000HP shield while the ECU would be 124'000HP. Second you can't compare anyway since one is in-built while one is taking a slot. See Carnage anciles which is weak for instance. The fact is that ECU are rarely, if ever, worth it. This is why buffing them could make sense. Level12 Ecu is 178k hp. Level12 Gareth is 160k I see what you did there, please don't do that again or people might believe you  More than that, once people understand that ECU works fine against Gekko/Hydra/Trebuchet/Molot and allow you to close in fast in the open while getting zero damage, we will see more of it in the field. Honestly, you really believe than most players having ECU are at level 12 ? In most cases, Ecus will be weaker than shields of Gareth. That is my point. Buff lower levels and keep the end of the scale as it is now, if you really don't want a level 12 ECU to be stronger. I totally disagree but that would not change my point regardless. |
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 10:20:37 GMT -5
Level12 Ecu is 178k hp. Level12 Gareth is 160k I see what you did there, please don't do that again or people might believe you :) More than that, once people understand that ECU works fine against Gekko/Hydra/Trebuchet/Molot and allow you to close in fast in the open while getting zero damage, we will see more of it in the field. Honestly, you really believe than most players having ECU are at level 12 ? In most cases, Ecus will be weaker than shields of Gareth. That is my point. Buff lower levels and keep the end of the scale as it is now, if you really don't want a level 12 ECU to be stronger. I totally disagree but that would not change my point regardless. With that logic applied, do you think that Gepard is the fastest robot in the game? At level4 Gepard is 58 km/h, and Stalker is only 56. |
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Post by carnage on Jul 12, 2017 10:25:23 GMT -5
Honestly, you really believe than most players having ECU are at level 12 ? In most cases, Ecus will be weaker than shields of Gareth. That is my point. Buff lower levels and keep the end of the scale as it is now, if you really don't want a level 12 ECU to be stronger. I totally disagree but that would not change my point regardless. With that logic applied, do you think that Gepard is the fastest robot in the game? At level4 Gepard is 58 km/h, and Stalker is only 56. Of course not but it's a terrible comparaison. Gepard never improves speed, even at level 2. Ecu is weaker than Gareths shield at all levels under 11. It is only at level 11 than Ecu is at the same level, and level 12 that it is superior. Come on my friend, you're not very objective here.  |
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