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Post by mijapi300 on Jul 12, 2017 10:34:18 GMT -5
Russel You are ignoring the fact that the ECU takes up a weapon slot. I don't believe 18k extra HP at max level compensates for the missing damage output. Especially when you factor in that the ECU can only be used while facing away from your opponent. Meaning you cannot fight back and defend at the same time like a Gareth. The ECU shield would have to be absolutely ridiculous in HP pool before you'll see a lot of people use them. And the response by the field would be another rocket meta. The ECU just doesn't have a practical application in this game besides having fun with one. To be honest, it doesn't make sense on anything other than a Cossack or Stalker in my opinion. It's fun as hell on both of those though.
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 10:38:40 GMT -5
With that logic applied, do you think that Gepard is the fastest robot in the game? At level4 Gepard is 58 km/h, and Stalker is only 56. Of course not but it's a terrible comparaison. Gepard never improves speed, even at level 2. Ecu is weaker than Gareths shield at all levels under 11. It is only at level 11 than Ecu is at the same level, and level 12 that it is superior. Come on my friend, you're not very objective here. ;) ECU is superior to any other shield, save for Rhino and Galahad. What are you saying is a stretch. The fact that "majority of the people" could not run a marathon does not make it "impossible" or "unrunnable". Your statement is false. You are not willing to admit your mistake and trying to post alternate facts. I would not be involved in "alternate facts" discussions, where you are bending situation to your need. Sorry, I got no time for debates like this, you will not hear from me again.
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 10:45:54 GMT -5
Russel You are ignoring the fact that the ECU takes up a weapon slot. I don't believe 18k extra HP at max level compensates for the missing damage output. Especially when you factor in that the ECU can only be used while facing away from your opponent. Meaning you cannot fight back and defend at the same time like a Gareth. The ECU shield would have to be absolutely ridiculous in HP pool before you'll see a lot of people use them. And the response by the field would be another rocket meta. The ECU just doesn't have a practical application in this game besides having fun with one. To be honest, it doesn't make sense on anything other than a Cossack or Stalker in my opinion. It's fun as hell on both of those though. That is completely different issue. Currently it's hitpoints are more than of a Griffin; honestly, how cool is that? And of course it should be used either on fast bots, or with a bots that got a lot of slots, like Patton\Leo\Natasha With recent Gekko+Trebuchet+Molots buff I think it has it's use for snipers. You can mount ECU on these beasts, and use it to protect yourself from enemy fire while reloading. I think it's a fair trade - 1 light slot for a 178K hp. In terms of medium slot usage I find it fun to equip Taran Rog with ECU as a beacon capper sometime. Actually, there are two drawbacks with ECU: 1) It can be mounted only to one side. So if you buy and upgrade one ECU for the left side, you can only mount it on left side for any robot in your hangar. This leads to a need of having at least two upgraded ECU in your hangar. 2) It cannot be mounted\unmounted as with Knights. It would be far more usable to be able to draw the shield while standing straight; especially for sniper's targeting purposes. Other that that it is VERY situational but nevertheless useful thing. Almost like Spiral\Hydra, I'd say
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Post by carnage on Jul 12, 2017 10:51:45 GMT -5
Of course not but it's a terrible comparaison. Gepard never improves speed, even at level 2. Ecu is weaker than Gareths shield at all levels under 11. It is only at level 11 than Ecu is at the same level, and level 12 that it is superior. Come on my friend, you're not very objective here. ECU is superior to any other shield, save for Rhino and Galahad. What are you saying is a stretch. The fact that "majority of the people" could not run a marathon does not make it "impossible" or "unrunnable". Your statement is false. You are not willing to admit your mistake and trying to post alternate facts. I would not be involved in "alternate facts" discussions, where you are bending situation to your need. Sorry, I got no time for debates like this, you will not hear from me again. Not sure if serious. Very strange cause it's not the kind of behavious I know from you. All that I say is that Ecu needs a buff. You come and say that it is stronger than Gareth for instance. Reality is that at all levels, except 11 and 12, this statement is wrong. At all level under 11 Ecu is weaker, they are even at level 11 and it is only at level 12 than ECU becomes slightly better. Those are the numbers. Regardless, it's not even the problem. Like mijapi said, and I said it also before, you cannot compare an in-built with something that you put on a slot anyway. In the end the ECU is rarely a good option and that is why a buff could be waranted. Not sure why you react like that. I'm not attacking you man, take a breath...
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Post by SoCalGrndR on Jul 12, 2017 11:09:02 GMT -5
bronzeknee, I think you make some very relevant valid points. Very well written and concise. But I do think it is a vastly complex system of moving parts with multiple ranges and levels to keep everything balanced and appropriately not balanced (gold bots & weapons). - I believe there has always been meta bots & hangars that will ultimately be a very limited selection, dont think that will change, nor is it a bad thing. - No, I do not agree with almost a blanket buff on weapons. I think any buff/nerf should be should be very limited and minimal in numbers because of the above stated complexities. I will argue that with any competition there is a top ranking / level / league etc.. Fundamentally the top will have small amount of content and very limited / exclusive. The challenge is how and by what means do you onstruct the top league in this case. - It takes tooo looong to level 11 & 12 levels bots & weapons (to much time is limiting players desire/commitment to get there) - It takes tooo muuuch Silver Ag to upgrade 11 & 12 levels. Premium pack is a requirement and if timed to late.... - I cant imagine having to wait to accumulate enough Ag to start an upgrade. - With such tight constraints on equipment to make into top tier, then add in the mystery of MM..... *Making something to limited, too overly challenging to attain, this causes a major imbalance in the game. This causes frustration and stagnation - Gold & Diamond tiers. Master / Champion leagues battling with lower leagues. In my view, another fundamental problem that blocks the growth of the game is tankers and faders. 6 on 6 battles: 1 TF is a significant challenge 2 TF's is a crap shoot 3+ is almost guaranteed loss Now Pix has reallocated the points, in part to patch this issue, regardless of their explaination for it. But with no control over this other than full clanning/squading, that is very limited control. I ask what is worse: leaves you more frustrated - full 6 on 6 battle with mix of skill or even one side with higher skill / bots - 6 on 3 / 4, with little or no chance of victory (yes, with current point system you earn points for top 2 spots) For me the points are good but still exceedingly frustrating much more than the points. Having to battle just to survive and utilize a strategy of looking for Reds that I can destroy easiest is not the game I enjoy playing. *If Pix would allocate more resources to accurately track, then significantly punish those Leavers/Tankers/Faders - gameplay would improve. Overtime on a regular basis I would rather lose in great battles, than win in unchallenging battles. My point being: Pix needs to fix the (GAME PLAY) part of the game before adding more (PLAY WITH) part of the game to improve the game.
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Post by bronzeknee on Jul 12, 2017 11:17:22 GMT -5
I think we would all rather be in great fights than blowouts. But even two evenly matched teams often have very lopsided games for a variety of reasons.
In the end, we only have some control over whether we win or lose, not whether or not the game will be close or competitive, and we'd all prefer to win (and sometimes those will be epic wins, sometimes boring stomps). Punishing tankers and better rewarding would be helpful.
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Post by dreamslayer28 on Jul 12, 2017 11:23:18 GMT -5
Patch 2.9.2 offers damage buffs to a significant amount of weapons in the game. Though I do agree that Pins and Tulumbas were too strong, damage buffs across the board is a huge mistake. Pixonic has noted that the top tiers of the ladder aren’t as "fun" due to a lack of diversity and I’m going to use that as a springboard to explain why more damage makes the game objectively worse, why top tier has been suffering so much because of this, and how this patch will make things worse for players of every skill level. Why isn’t top tier fun?
Top tier isn’t fun in the eyes of Pixonic and many members of the community because of the lack of diversity. I’ll let Pixonic explain: “In lower leagues the picture happens to be much broader, but not because people there don’t yet have an access to higher tier robots — not necessarily. People there are much more keen to experiment. If we go higher, min-maxing aspect slowly but surely takes over. Which is alright, because, you know, why would you go for a suboptimal build when your goal is to be the best among the best?
The reason for that? There aren’t many variables to play around with. You take Galahad and Lancelot for supreme protection. You pick Griffin if you want a jail free card with its ability to quickly jump into safety. You pick Fury (or Butch, if you prefer) for long range sniping. And that’s pretty much it."
"If you want to climb leagues it’s better to play the most powerful robot builds instead of those you consider most fun. And that kind of sucks, we agree.”Let’s examine that min-maxing aspect a bit more and why we can’t run certain robots and weapons with success at the top. Efficiency gap between armor and damage
First, I want to take a peek about at the difference between armor and damage in terms of effectiveness, which is a gap that increases even more with this release. One of the pieces of advice you'll frequently see given to new players is that they should keep their weapons 2 levels ahead of their Robots, and that is sound advice because damage out scales armor. This is exemplified by comparing the Leo (one of the Robots with the best armor scaling) with the Thunder. Leo -Level 6 – 155,000 armor Level 12 – 226,000 armor 46% bonus armor going from 6 to 12. Thunder-Level 5 – 8432 damage per shot Level 12 – 16304 damage per shot 93% bonus damage going from 5 to 12. A level 12 Leo with a level 6 Thunder would be easily defeated by a level 6 Leo with a level 12 Thunder. And that doesn’t consider the fact the Leo also has 3 other weapons to level, which skews damage even more! As you progress in the game, Robots take far less time to kill.That difference, between how armor and weapons scale with levels explains a lot about how the game changes as you rise. Consider a creating close range Robot for top tier; you naturally have to compare to it the other top knifers in the game, with a special focus on damage. In the end, just about everything has to be measured against the Death Button Griffin (Orkan/Pinata), because it has such high damage potential it can burst down nearly any Robot in a single cycle. Thus, the only knifers that are viable at the top then either are so tanky they can withstand the barrage of rockets (Ancilot), or can dodge the rockets via mobility (other Griffins with Jump, Galahads and Gareth being able to outrun rocket). That is why the meta is so limited at the top. If your opponent can burst you down in a single cycle, then your Robot either needs to also have that potential, or have the potential to survive it. And the high armor Robots (Leo, Boa, Raijin) have neither without greatly sacrificing damage. Raising weapon damage makes Robots with high armor even worse, further damaging the viability of builds that were already weak. At lower levels a Death Button Griffin often can’t burst down an opponent in a single cycle, and thus the meta opens up, because many Robots can survive the cycle and then have the opportunity to deal return damage. But there is something even more insidious about high damage, it contracts the length of battles. Contracting time decreases the quality of play
A good pilot wants the battle to last as long as possible, because the longer he is in the fight, the more decisions he can make that positively affect the outcome of the battle and the more time he has to allow his skill to show. This is why we say inferior fighters have a punchers chance against a superior fighter in MMA and boxing. If you rush your opponent and get lucky with a punch, you might beat someone a lot more skilled. But if the match goes for a long period of time, the better fighter have more time to utilize their superior skills, and the lesser fighter is going to be worn down. High burst damage can contract the time players have to make decision, which limits the number of decision that can be made, and in turn that reduces the amount of skill they can show. And thus counter play opportunities are greatly reduced. This is illustrated well in this quote regarding game design from a French game designer: “Think about driving a car. What happens at 30 km/h? You're in control. Now increase to 50? Still fully doable, but your margin of error does decrease. Now increase to 70, 100, 150, 300, 500—at some point the accident can no longer be avoided and even the best drivers enter the realm of the “unforgivable”. The simple fact that you maintain your driving activity makes the crash inevitable. You lose control and you make mistakes by force. This mechanism is “the contraction of time”. Blitz chess is another dazzling example of that: pressured by time, world-caliber players start making absolutely grotesque, newbie-like blunders. Contracting time decreases the quality of play, even if the competition can somewhat stand for a while (though increasingly turned inwards, towards oneself). Should you proceed for too long in that direction, skill itself would start to disappear, replaced with the functional equivalent of luck.”
Think also about the interaction of a sniper who can kill someone in one shot in a FPS. Unless you have unlimited access to cover (in which case the sniper is 100% not viable) the sniper will have a chance to pick you off. While utilizing cover well is a skill you can use to mitigate their chances of hitting you, a good sniper will still hit people. In the end that means the interaction is essentially one sided, the skill of the sniper decides whether you live or die in an instant, even if you play perfectly. That is why the AWP dominates Counterstrike, because good players know if they play well, there is nothing their opponent can do against their well-placed shots that kill in an instant. It is a terrible interaction because one player is completely at the mercy of the other, and research has shown that that feeling leads to player frustration. We all want to feel like we have a chance to play our way out of situation if we play our best. Perhaps a great example of this is remembering the first few War Robot games you played. Everyone was piloting a Destrier that does very little damage. Good pilots aim well, utilize cover when reloading and circle strafe their opponents to avoid damage. There are so many opportunities to show skill, so many opportunities for counter play, and for comebacks, because the weapons don’t deal critical damage. There is time to make a mistake and recover.
The interaction allows for so much more skill than when a Death Button Griffin comes flying in over your head and the rockets come crashing down. There isn’t time to recover from a mistake in that situation. And that is partly why people prefer the lower tiers. Burst damage doesn’t just ruin many fun Robot builds, it contracts time, reduces skill, and leads to player frustration. That is why the top tier isn't "fun." Every time Pixonic has increases damage, they risk bleeding some skill out from the game. I’d like to see them revert these changes and balance the Pin and Tulumbas in other ways, there is more than enough damage in the game. I am an esports writer in real life and while I am yet to experience what you've said about War Robots, I would like to disagree that the AWP dominates CS. Don't get me wrong, AWPers are still among the most important elements of CS:GO. However, use of grenades, environmental knowledge and game sense would allow you to actually go up against AWPs at all levels of gameplay. Missed that shot? Say goodbye to your life as AKs, M4s and P90s will blast you in the blink of an eye. CS has became a cerebral game over the years as it turned into one of the world's greatest esports titles.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 11:28:31 GMT -5
Currently it's hitpoints are more than of a Griffin; honestly, how cool is that? Who gives a crap about that when everyone's using rockets. Physical shield are almost dead now because of the buff to Pins and Tulumbas and the double buff to Orkan Pinatas. You're sacrificing one whole medium / light slots for something that you MIGHT use. And of course it should be used either on fast bots, or with a bots that got a lot of slots, like Patton\Leo\Natasha Ecu on fast bots completely negates their already limited offensive ability while rarely boosting their defensive abilities. An Ecu on a heavy bot is even worse as they won't be able to compete with other heavies even if the enemies are not using rockets. You turn to the side and your Ecu takes a beating and when you turn back once your Ecu gets destroyed, the enemy has full health and full firepower, while you hopefully have full health but less firepower. With recent Gekko+Trebuchet+Molots buff I think it has it's use for snipers. You can mount ECU on these beasts, and use it to protect yourself from enemy fire while reloading. By sniper I hope you mean by the Natasha. The Fury and Butch are standard top tier snipers and neither of them can carry an Ecu. I think it's a fair trade - 1 light slot for a 178K hp. Ecu does not add on to your health (otherwise it would be a fair trade ). It takes away from your firepower and gives you a sheet of styrofoam that will not help you in most fights. And before you go saying that I don't know anything about Ecus and never used them, I ran an Ecu Magnum Patton before the Leagues hit. The sole purpose of the Ecu was to block Punishers which are nearly nonexistent now.
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 11:42:31 GMT -5
Who gives a crap about that when everyone's using rockets. Physical shield are almost dead now because of the buff to Pins and Tulumbas and the double buff to Orkan Pinatas. You're sacrificing one whole medium / light slots for something that you MIGHT use. You should really go and read some Android players threads about Pin\Tulumbas are no good after the updated. Ecu on fast bots completely negates their already limited offensive ability while rarely boosting their defensive abilities. An Ecu on a heavy bot is even worse as they won't be able to compete with other heavies even if the enemies are not using rockets. You turn to the side and your Ecu takes a beating and when you turn back once your Ecu gets destroyed, the enemy has full health and full firepower, while you hopefully have full health but less firepower. Once again, read about 2.9.2 rebalance By sniper I hope you mean by the Natasha. The Fury and Butch are standard top tier snipers and neither of them can carry an Ecu. Not only the Natty. What's wrong with Trebuchet\2xGekko Leo as a sniper? I specifically said that it should be used on a bots with a lot of slots, like Patton, Natasha and Leo; and snipers subset of this particular set of bots (yes, Leo and Natasha) will benefit from the ECU. Now that I gave it a though I might throw Golem into equation. With Medium+Heavy and a shield he could pack a decent punch and speed is good, too. Ecu does not add on to your health (otherwise it would be a fair trade :) ). It takes away from your firepower and gives you a sheet of styrofoam that will not help you in most fights. That actually would be an awful idea. When your HP is being drained, you are getting damage, and your weapon might fall off, while being hit in a shield will not blow your weapon away. And before you go saying that I don't know anything about Ecus and never used them, I ran an Ecu Magnum Patton before the Leagues hit. The sole purpose of the Ecu was to block Punishers which are nearly nonexistent now. While I had no intention of saying that (why would I?), I will suggest once again, you should read Android threads about Punishers being used after the 2.9.2 rebalance. And you skipped the entire part of ECU being viable for snipers. You will get NO rocket fire in a sniper bot, due to the range.
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Post by bronzeknee on Jul 12, 2017 11:55:16 GMT -5
I am an esports writer in real life and while I am yet to experience what you've said about War Robots, I would like to disagree that the AWP dominates CS. Don't get me wrong, AWPers are still among the most important elements of CS:GO. However, use of grenades, environmental knowledge and game sense would allow you to actually go up against AWPs at all levels of gameplay. Missed that shot? Say goodbye to your life as AKs, M4s and P90s will blast you in the blink of an eye. CS has became a cerebral game over the years as it turned into one of the world's greatest esports titles. I haven't played or followed CS in years (I am 32 years old), but I did play competitively back when it was a Half-life mod (I played the very first versions) and won some money at tournaments. So the game has probably changed dramatically. Even still, you predicated the entire argument with " Missed that shot?"Thus, the control remains with the person with the AWP, because if they don't miss, the other guy gets no chance to even play (and even if they do miss, I'd hope pistols still work, whip out that Desert Eagle! ). So the skill ceiling is therefore limited for the person trying to dodge the sniper, but the sky is the limit for the sniper. So even if you play the cover perfectly, a sniper can kill you (unless there is 100% cover in which case snipers aren't viable). Good players seek situations where they can utilize their skill (ie have a high skill ceiling) and limit their opponents. So regardless of whether or not the AWP is dominant or not, it isn't good game design.
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Post by bronzeknee on Jul 12, 2017 13:21:07 GMT -5
That is a really interesting idea. I hadn't thought of an ECU on Natasha for sniping, it is a great idea, but I think the Butch just deals so much more damage that it wouldn't be viable. Snipers who utilize cover well essentially block damage anyway. But it is a good idea and I have a feeling that sniper bots with built in shields will eventually be a Robot that Pixonic creates.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 13:27:07 GMT -5
How quickly everyone forgets that the same 155k base Leo was buffed in update 2.5 from 120k base, a 29% health buff. The weapon boosts are just bringing the game back to that state.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 13:35:38 GMT -5
Russel About the RDB -> war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/11351/tulu-pin-rdb-after-2From what I have read there, the RDB is still pretty good and there was none of that 'My RDB is useless now! I want a refund!'. There's nothing wrong with a Gekko Leo as a sniper. Neither is there a problem with a Gekko Destrier or a Kang Dae Schlutze as a sniper. What I'd like to know if what general League set the Treb Gekko Leo or the Gekko Treb Golem will work in without your teammates blaming you with a loss. I don't think it would be an awful idea. A Leo could have a maximum HP of ~600K if that was implemented. With the Punishers being buffed, that gives actually less room for the Ecu to move around. Months before, my Ecu was used to get me in range of 350m. A Punisher Destrier will be able to melt an Ecu with one clip (~10 seconds). A Punisher Griffin will take out an Ecu in around 3-5.
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 13:43:24 GMT -5
That is a really interesting idea. I hadn't thought of an ECU on Natasha for sniping, it is a great idea, but I think the Butch just deals so much more damage that it wouldn't be viable. Snipers who utilize cover well essentially block damage anyway. But it is a good idea and I have a feeling that sniper bots with built in shields will eventually be a Robot that Pixonic creates. Yeah, it has it's drawbacks. After I finish event grind I will try it our on Nata, with 2xTrebs and Gekko. Ability to take cover was something I couldn't quite have in my Molot Griffin. On the other hand, it might be useful for Zeus Nata, in a standoff against Carnage. All in all, the only setup I really tried was Rog and Cossack ECU, as a beacon capturers. Combined with the Jump ability it is a marvelous thing for Yamantau. You do the jump, ECU forward, and all the red sniper's shots are virtually wasted by your shield. This way you are basically giving teammates +23 seconds of breathe time. And with Orkan\Taran buff, I ECU\Taran Rog would be a nice anti-sniper+beacon capper build for Canyon\Springfield.
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 13:53:46 GMT -5
Russel About the RDB -> war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/thread/11351/tulu-pin-rdb-after-2From what I have read there, the RDB is still pretty good and there was none of that 'My RDB is useless now! I want a refund!'. There's nothing wrong with a Gekko Leo as a sniper. Neither is there a problem with a Gekko Destrier or a Kang Dae Schlutze as a sniper. What I'd like to know if what general League set the Treb Gekko Leo or the Gekko Treb Golem will work in without your teammates blaming you with a loss. I don't think it would be an awful idea. A Leo could have a maximum HP of ~600K if that was implemented. With the Punishers being buffed, that gives actually less room for the Ecu to move around. Months before, my Ecu was used to get me in range of 350m. A Punisher Destrier will be able to melt an Ecu with one clip (~10 seconds). A Punisher Griffin will take out an Ecu in around 3-5. That are exactly my points. 1) Put ECU on a fast bot, so rockets can't hit you 2) Put ECU on a sniper, so rockets can't reach you. And for Leo I didn't quite grasp your idea of 600K hp. I was not hinting at equipping 2xECU on a bot, it's IMHO useless. Mine was getting single ECU, while keeping 1xTreb+2Gekko, or, I think even better, use a Natty with 2xTrebs and 1xGekko. Still not getting your point on "lose" with snipers. Are you trying to hint that 2xTreb+Gekko or Treb+2xGekko sniper won't be doing decent damage? I'd say it really depends on a map. And on Punishers - once again, 500m range, I think it's not good to use ECU as a short-range bullet sponge. On yet another note, why ECU fast bots are better than just big HP fast bots - Cossack got a 78K hp max, ECU got 178K HP. So it's 256 combined. By the time ECU is broken off your bot is alive and well. Alternatively, if you just buff a Cossack so it's 256K hitpoints, but no weapons - when you are left with 78K hp it's only 30% of your hitpoints. And I am SURE that you will get you "leg damage" by that time, loosing speed. So ECU saves your speed, and, with other bots than the Cossack, also saves your weapons from being blown off.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 14:04:31 GMT -5
When I mean 'lose' with sniper I mean this: 1 sniper on your team means 1 less player pushing beacons. It kinda goes with midrangers as well. Less people pushing beacons means a lesser chance that your team will hold the majority of beacons in a match. That means a lose.
A 2x Trebuchet Gekko will be doing decent damage, maybe a quarter of a Griffin's health in one shot. But certainly not as much as the other better and more viable snipers like the Trebuchet Butch or the Trebuchet Fury.
In my experience a Punisher generally does half its damage in 500m as opposed to 200m. So a Punisher Griffin will be able to rid an Ecu in about 10 seconds, not mentioning the amount of health you're going to lose thanks to the bullet spread.
Yes a Cossack has 78K HP, but once again, midrange rockets like Tulumbas and Pins are perfectly as viable. Once a Cossack or a Rog lands, there are still for about a second which means anyone with Tulumbas and Pins will be free to shoot at them without the Cossack / Rog dodging. I don't know why you're using an Ecu Cossack in today's meta, but the Ecu Cossacks on the red team, tankers or hard-core event grinders, do not last long.
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Post by noobcake on Jul 12, 2017 14:31:24 GMT -5
bronzeknee that was a superbly written persuasive essay. Well done.
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Post by Russel on Jul 12, 2017 15:31:51 GMT -5
When I mean 'lose' with sniper I mean this: 1 sniper on your team means 1 less player pushing beacons. It kinda goes with midrangers as well. Less people pushing beacons means a lesser chance that your team will hold the majority of beacons in a match. That means a lose. A 2x Trebuchet Gekko will be doing decent damage, maybe a quarter of a Griffin's health in one shot. But certainly not as much as the other better and more viable snipers like the Trebuchet Butch or the Trebuchet Fury. In my experience a Punisher generally does half its damage in 500m as opposed to 200m. So a Punisher Griffin will be able to rid an Ecu in about 10 seconds, not mentioning the amount of health you're going to lose thanks to the bullet spread. Yes a Cossack has 78K HP, but once again, midrange rockets like Tulumbas and Pins are perfectly as viable. Once a Cossack or a Rog lands, there are still for about a second which means anyone with Tulumbas and Pins will be free to shoot at them without the Cossack / Rog dodging. I don't know why you're using an Ecu Cossack in today's meta, but the Ecu Cossacks on the red team, tankers or hard-core event grinders, do not last long. Hm, okay here were are going into "personal experience" territory, and I don't want to wander there, because we are clearly were facing different battles. I really can't argue here with you, because I believe what you are saying is right for your gameplay, and I know that what I saying is good for mine. So when I will get some practical experience with snipers I will get back on the topic.
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SlamCatalina
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Pilot name: ᴄ ᴜ ↄ ᴋ ᴏ ᴏ
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League: Champion
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Favorite robot: Thunder Carnage (RIP)
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Post by SlamCatalina on Jul 12, 2017 17:24:54 GMT -5
Thus, the only knifers that are viable at the top then either are so tanky they can withstand the barrage of rockets (Ancilot), or can dodge the rockets via mobility (other Griffins with Jump, Galahads and Gareth being able to outrun rocket). That is why the meta is so limited at the top. If your opponent can burst you down in a single cycle, then your Robot either needs to also have that potential, or have the potential to survive it. And the high armor Robots (Leo, Boa, Raijin) have neither without greatly sacrificing damage. First of all, great post and insightful analysis. With your statement quoted above, from a hypothetical standpoint, would you say that post 2.9.2 update with increased damage basically leads pilots to either 1. stay far back and snipe or 2. go with the absolute heaviest knife fighters like Ancilots? slam
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Post by HEATHEN HERETIC on Jul 12, 2017 18:16:31 GMT -5
bronzeknee, I think you make some very relevant valid points. Very well written and concise. But I do think it is a vastly complex system of moving parts with multiple ranges and levels to keep everything balanced and appropriately not balanced (gold bots & weapons). - I believe there has always been meta bots & hangars that will ultimately be a very limited selection, dont think that will change, nor is it a bad thing. - No, I do not agree with almost a blanket buff on weapons. I think any buff/nerf should be should be very limited and minimal in numbers because of the above stated complexities. I will argue that with any competition there is a top ranking / level / league etc.. Fundamentally the top will have small amount of content and very limited / exclusive. The challenge is how and by what means do you onstruct the top league in this case. - It takes tooo looong to level 11 & 12 levels bots & weapons (to much time is limiting players desire/commitment to get there) - It takes tooo muuuch Silver Ag to upgrade 11 & 12 levels. Premium pack is a requirement and if timed to late.... - I cant imagine having to wait to accumulate enough Ag to start an upgrade. - With such tight constraints on equipment to make into top tier, then add in the mystery of MM..... *Making something to limited, too overly challenging to attain, this causes a major imbalance in the game. This causes frustration and stagnation - Gold & Diamond tiers. Master / Champion leagues battling with lower leagues. In my view, another fundamental problem that blocks the growth of the game is tankers and faders. 6 on 6 battles: 1 TF is a significant challenge 2 TF's is a crap shoot 3+ is almost guaranteed loss Now Pix has reallocated the points, in part to patch this issue, regardless of their explaination for it. But with no control over this other than full clanning/squading, that is very limited control. I ask what is worse: leaves you more frustrated - full 6 on 6 battle with mix of skill or even one side with higher skill / bots - 6 on 3 / 4, with little or no chance of victory (yes, with current point system you earn points for top 2 spots) For me the points are good but still exceedingly frustrating much more than the points. Having to battle just to survive and utilize a strategy of looking for Reds that I can destroy easiest is not the game I enjoy playing. *If Pix would allocate more resources to accurately track, then significantly punish those Leavers/Tankers/Faders - gameplay would improve. Overtime on a regular basis I would rather lose in great battles, than win in unchallenging battles. My point being: Pix needs to fix the (GAME PLAY) part of the game before adding more (PLAY WITH) part of the game to improve the game. If players had no means of tanking to get easier matchings that would take care of the biggest problem. If you've seen my matching formula and checked it out properly you'll see it kills the two biggest issues in the game. Tanking and lopsided equipment matching. There is no possible way to drop through any ranking using my formula because it isn't matching us according to those crazy "league" rankings. My formula matches us according to the equipment our hangers are showing every single time. That means that no matter how much a player changes their hanger up they will always be matched with other hangers that are similar in make up. And players would be constrained to building hangers to even find matchings for themselves. If a player built a hanger so crazy that the matching formula could not find them a match then they would be forced to rebuild their hanger so that they could. My formula allows players to use any equipment and play at any level with anyone they please without having any equipment advantages that are so far off its simply unfair to some. It puts player skill far above equipment upgrades of numbers of robots. I'm an observer. I've read the complaints and found by observation that the #1 complaint by most players is the matching algorithm. By Pixonic's own admission they are using that ridiculous "league" ranking to put people together in matches using their matching algorithm. And if anyone looks at it closely they can see that it does not in any form take into consideration what players have in their hangers. So yes, players will always have the ability to tank that system. It's fundamentaly flawed and as far as I can tell it cannot be fixed in its present form. So I came up with a formula that can utterly kill the ability to tank and give players the ability to use their skills to play the game instead of obsessing over upgrading. But if used it means the end of that ridiculous "league" ranking system as well. Leagues are for groups of teams. I'm not a team. Even that temporary mix of players I'm put into the game with is not a team. Clans are teams but the game doesn't really rank players as part of a clan. It's trying to rank individuals in arbitrary matchups as teams. It's incomprehensible to me. Like I said, I'm not a team. I propose along with my matching formula a ranking system based on our statistics. Statistics that Pixonic has consistently shown us that they do keep on us. Most accurate gunners. Most damage done to opponents. Most bots destroyed. Best pilot of individual bot types. Most beacons captured. Most beacons liberated. There are any number of ways to determine our skill rankings. And each would give Pixonic the ability to reward players accordingly and keep player interest in the game. Players might decide to take these different rankings as challenges and change their hangers accordingly. Similar to the way the tasks are already done now. Players would be far less stressed over wins and losses as well. Because their rankings wouldn't be dependent upon wins and losses. It would be dependent upon their own personal skills. There is no way to "fix" the current system without throwing it out and starting over. But I'm not proposing difficult changes either. Just simple reprogramming.
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Post by dreamslayer28 on Jul 12, 2017 20:06:34 GMT -5
I am an esports writer in real life and while I am yet to experience what you've said about War Robots, I would like to disagree that the AWP dominates CS. Don't get me wrong, AWPers are still among the most important elements of CS:GO. However, use of grenades, environmental knowledge and game sense would allow you to actually go up against AWPs at all levels of gameplay. Missed that shot? Say goodbye to your life as AKs, M4s and P90s will blast you in the blink of an eye. CS has became a cerebral game over the years as it turned into one of the world's greatest esports titles. I haven't played or followed CS in years (I am 32 years old), but I did play competitively back when it was a Half-life mod (I played the very first versions) and won some money at tournaments. So the game has probably changed dramatically. Even still, you predicated the entire argument with " Missed that shot?"Thus, the control remains with the person with the AWP, because if they don't miss, the other guy gets no chance to even play (and even if they do miss, I'd hope pistols still work, whip out that Desert Eagle! ). So the skill ceiling is therefore limited for the person trying to dodge the sniper, but the sky is the limit for the sniper. So even if you play the cover perfectly, a sniper can kill you (unless there is 100% cover in which case snipers aren't viable). Good players seek situations where they can utilize their skill (ie have a high skill ceiling) and limit their opponents. So regardless of whether or not the AWP is dominant or not, it isn't good game design. Well, no one has complained about the AWP's strength for the past two years, so that means that the way people work around it has been effective. I am no expert in game design, but if Valve gets awards due to CS:GO's excellence in that category and was able to make it into one of the most prominent titles in the world today, then I don't think the case of AWP being a bad case of design is valid. Going back to Pix's changes, I don't really mind the changes as long as they make for multiple scenarios during battle and they make the gameplay smooth, though at the moment the second case is not that valid. Just hoping that they do not make an extremely drastic change again - 15 percent is game breaking in quite a number of competitive titles.
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Post by bronzeknee on Jul 12, 2017 21:31:18 GMT -5
Well, I'm not going to argue that because I believe that it is self-evident that both players should have equal control in games, and the AWP doesn't do that. One player can simply end the interaction with a single button push, and even then it isn't like he automatically loses if he misses he shot, he can shoot again, pull out a pistol, ect... And just because no one has complained about something doesn't mean it is okay.
That being said no game is perfect, but admitting game design flaws is the first step to fixing them. In the case of the CS I think the AWP is just something that is accepted because people in real life can die to a single shot of a gun. Counterstrike definitely isn't a bad game, it's great, I loved it for years and would probably still enjoy it very much, and it should win awards, just not because of the AWP. The more decisions you can make the better, and single shot burst damage cuts off decision making quite quickly.
In a nutshell yes. Meta-prediction could be a topic for another thread but a lot of sniper/support weapons got a buff and that means knifers are going to take a lot more damage coming in. Pixonic said that close range weapons were buffed too so if you could close on a camper you'd finish them faster, but they seem to have forgotten that it also means knifers will die faster to each other.
Thus, people who run a lot of close range bots are going to Mech out a lot faster and won't be as helpful to their team. That should lead to people running more supports and snipers to simply stay alive longer.
If you do run knifers, you definitely want to run ones that can survive the barrage of weapons from mid and long range with enough health to actually be useful. That could hurt the Griffin.
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SprintingGoat
Destrier
Posts: 78
Karma: 67
Platform: iOS
Clan: theU
League: Champion
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Post by SprintingGoat on Jul 12, 2017 22:31:04 GMT -5
How quickly everyone forgets that the same 155k base Leo was buffed in update 2.5 from 120k base, a 29% health buff. The weapon boosts are just bringing the game back to that state. or setting us up for another set of HP buffs... likely en masse
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acethunder
GI. Patton
Posts: 136
Karma: 224
Pilot name: Ace Thunder!
Platform: iOS
Clan: Wiki
League: Gold
Server Region: Asia
Favorite robot: Gary
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Post by acethunder on Jul 13, 2017 3:11:47 GMT -5
bronzekneeBeautifully put, concisely written. I couldn't agree more.
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Post by bronzeknee on Jul 13, 2017 11:03:58 GMT -5
Thank you guys for all the kind comments.
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HeWhoEatsBabies
Recruit
Posts: 9
Karma: 8
Platform: Android
Favorite robot: Gareth
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Post by HeWhoEatsBabies on Jul 13, 2017 11:04:49 GMT -5
Efficiency gap between armor and damage
First, I want to take a peek about at the difference between armor and damage in terms of effectiveness, which is a gap that increases even more with this release. One of the pieces of advice you'll frequently see given to new players is that they should keep their weapons 2 levels ahead of their Robots, and that is sound advice because damage out scales armor. This is exemplified by comparing the Leo (one of the Robots with the best armor scaling) with the Thunder. Leo -Level 6 – 155,000 armor Level 12 – 226,000 armor 46% bonus armor going from 6 to 12. Thunder-Level 5 – 8432 damage per shot Level 12 – 16304 damage per shot 93% bonus damage going from 5 to 12. A level 12 Leo with a level 6 Thunder would be easily defeated by a level 6 Leo with a level 12 Thunder. And that doesn’t consider the fact the Leo also has 3 other weapons to level, which skews damage even more! As you progress in the game, Robots take far less time to kill.That difference, between how armor and weapons scale with levels explains a lot about how the game changes as you rise. Consider a creating close range Robot for top tier; you naturally have to compare to it the other top knifers in the game, with a special focus on damage. In the end, just about everything has to be measured against the Death Button Griffin (Orkan/Pinata), because it has such high damage potential it can burst down nearly any Robot in a single cycle. I know I seem to be going against conventional wisdom here, but I don’t agree with the maths regarding Weapons and Bot level increases. Essentially, you’re skewing the stats because you’re taking one weapon in isolation. You should look at the change taking into account all weapon points. I know you say damage will be skewed even more but you make it sound like there’s no time or cost involved in levelling. The fact bots have multiple weapon slots actually makes the impact of levelling a weapon over a bot less significant not more. Looking at your example of a Leo I calculated the maths based on a lvl 6 leo with x3 lvl 6 Pinatas and a lvl 6 Thunder, which seems a fair start. The HP at this point is 155K with a total cycle damage of 84,570 (3*12,750 + 46320). If you level the leo to level 7 you get a 6.45% increase in HP to 165k. If you instead choose to level the Thunder you get a 5.39% increase in overall damage, up to 89,130 (+4,560). The Time to level is roughly the same (30 vs 33), however the Thunder costs .6m more Ag. What’s interesting is, if you face off a Leo with 165k and cycle damage of 84,570 against a Leo with 155k but 89,130 they actually take almost exactly the same time to kill each other, 1.83 vs 1.85 cycles, in favour of the higher level leo, yet only a differencial of 0.99%. In fact if you go to higher levels, so for example take x2 level 8 leos with all level 8 weapons, one player levels the robot to 9 and another the thunder to level 9, the differential is even closer. Even though the cycles required to kill goes down for both 1.73 vs 1.74, the battle is even closer, with only a 0.78% differential (again in favour of the Leo with more HP). Again in this case the Time cost is the same, 50 hours, but the Thunder costs 1m Ag more. (for reference, 176k HP taking 101,820 Damage vs 187k HP taking 107,340 Damage) Now it’s not the same for every bot of course, but it definitely isn’t as clear cut as people suggest. Even a Thunder carnage is better off levelling the bot first (like the Leo the Heavy slot makes up around 50% of the damage). 126k (HP+Sh) taking 92,640 vs 134k taking 97,200. Within 1%. Cost to level the Thunder is more than twice as much though If you look at a lvl 6 RDB Griffin it really favours to level the bot to 7 over a Tulumba, by almost a 3% differential. 117k taking a cycle damage of 38,080 beats 110k with 39,280 every time if they hit together. It takes 5 hours longer to level, but costs you 200ag less. Slightly less relevant given it’s not a knife fighter set up I suppose. The significance here is that a Tulumba only makes up 32.77% of a RDB Griffin’s damage compared to 50% with the other 2, which is why levelling the griffin is more pronounced. But a plasma griffin is almost exactly the same as the RDB at lvl 6 (assuming the magnum fires for the full cycle length of a Taran you get 110k taking 141,344 vs 117k taking 145,344). higher lvl griffin wins. So in short, I think Pix have actually made the level of Bots and Weapons incredibly balanced. It does depend on the Bot and their weapon points of course but I don’t think you can make the argument that levelling a weapon is automatically better. Yes, weapons can be migrated to other bots, but then of course you’re getting speed bonuses with the bots too. Anyway, there’s my thoughts.
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Post by stokr on Jul 13, 2017 12:36:35 GMT -5
Thus, people who run a lot of close range bots are going to Mech out a lot faster and won't be as helpful to their team. That should lead to people running more supports and snipers to simply stay alive longer. This is exactly what I'm experiencing right now. I run DB variation x2, PDB variation x2, and mid x1. I have meched out more in the last couple of days than the previous couple of months. Right now I'm trying to adjust without making a hangar change, but I have been contemplating removing a knifer and adding a mid. I dunno...I'm holding steady with my league ranking, as is.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Jul 13, 2017 12:55:00 GMT -5
Thus, people who run a lot of close range bots are going to Mech out a lot faster and won't be as helpful to their team. That should lead to people running more supports and snipers to simply stay alive longer. This is exactly what I'm experiencing right now. I run DB variation x2, PDB variation x2, and mid x1. I have meched out more in the last couple of days than the previous couple of months. Right now I'm trying to adjust without making a hangar change, but I have been contemplating removing a knifer and adding a mid. I dunno...I'm holding steady with my league ranking, as is. One word; Ambush.
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SlamCatalina
Destrier
Posts: 96
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Pilot name: ᴄ ᴜ ↄ ᴋ ᴏ ᴏ
Platform: iOS
Clan: [•Ω•] ΩMΣGΔ
League: Champion
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Thunder Carnage (RIP)
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Post by SlamCatalina on Jul 13, 2017 14:07:17 GMT -5
This is exactly what I'm experiencing right now. I run DB variation x2, PDB variation x2, and mid x1. I have meched out more in the last couple of days than the previous couple of months. Right now I'm trying to adjust without making a hangar change, but I have been contemplating removing a knifer and adding a mid. I dunno...I'm holding steady with my league ranking, as is. One word; Ambush. Ambush is always the goal for knifers, but long maps with no cover like Canyon, etc make knifers easy pickings for the soon-to-be-further-buffed sniping weapons. However, if they modify the maps for more cover than that may help out. Let's face it, a double salvo from a quad Treb Butch will basically finish off any robots....what fun is that?
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Post by SGT D00M! on Jul 13, 2017 14:24:15 GMT -5
I have been fine in canyon. I choose cover and let red team short and midrange bots come to me. SF when you start in the valley however.... screw that place.
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