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Post by acdcfan on Jul 10, 2017 3:40:36 GMT -5
To be fully honest, and at the risk of my message being disliked by some, I think the community is also responsible for this.
JMO. I think splash damage for tridens, tulus, pins, pinata and orks needs to be a lot lower. With my RDB griffin if I shoot close to where the target is I can take half of opponents health just with 1 payload. to a point i would advocate for direct hit on all missile weapons with a minimal splash damage.
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Post by MCYL on Jul 10, 2017 3:59:33 GMT -5
Nerfs:-Pin and Tulumbas shooting speed reduced. Buffs:-Tempest 20% damage increase. -Gekko 25% damage increase. -Trebuchet 5% damage increase. -Spiral 15% damage increase. -Aphid 5% damage increase. -Hydra 15% damage increase. -Orkan 15% damage increase. -Pinata 5% damage increase. -Magnum 5% damage increase. -Taran 15% damage increase. -Punisher MKI 15% damage increase. -Punisher MKII 25% damage increase. -Molot MKI 15% damage increase. -Molot MKII 20% damage increase. Punishers, Molots, Kang Daes and Nashorns deal 250% damage to physical shields. I'm a bit disappointed with these changes. We don't need more damage in this game, it just serves to burst people down faster, and with the movement abilities the Dash Robots will bring, it is feeling increasingly like Overwatch and less likely a Mech game. The Tulu/PIN nerf is extremely mild and it won't be noticed. I believe the overall nerf is to add a half second to the unload time to an RDB. This is pretty meaningless with the auto reload mechanic. What I do like is the buff to the Hydras and the Gekkos. I've been trying to prepare for what I believe are the two biggest game changers coming this year ---- the Scourge and the jumping/stealth bot (I care less about the Korean bots actually). My current plan was to upgrade Hydras and Molots so I could fight at a distance. However, this Gekko buff ups the damage of the weapon to better than light hardpoint Molot levels at the 600-800m range. Since I'd rather use a tracking weapon to fight the Korean bots, the Gekkos will be added to the Hydra as my preferred weapons to handle Scourge setups and that new jumping/stealth bot. I already have leveled Molots/Punishers, but they aren't impressive against fast bots - but they will come in handy against Bulgasaris and Lancelots after the bullets-vs-physical shields buff. Overall, I like the weapon's buffs, as faster killing means faster matches. Also, the upcoming Death Match mode will be HELL if the frequency of DRAWS is as high as what I saw on the test servers and I welcome anything that gets the killing done faster. Yeah but do you find firing gekkos and hydras fun? So it becomes effective but having to rely on weapons requiring no leading of shots, no range control, lesser considerations for cover how can it match playing with say rockets, plasma, shotgun where a player needs to anticipate enemy movement, find an exposed side or stalk into knifefighting range? I do like making the game more accessible to new players but lowering the skill ceiling drastically won't help retention of any player, experienced or novice.
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Post by TravLar on Jul 10, 2017 4:04:42 GMT -5
Russel, what do you reckon about all this? I mean its not unlike to Pix to package a nerf as a buff and visa versa right?
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Post by dreamslayer28 on Jul 10, 2017 6:06:55 GMT -5
In my case, let's see what happens next.
Though 15 to 25 percent swings in either direction are way too much in terms of game balance.
Reminds me of Valve when they released version 7.00 for Dota 2: The gameplay changed drastically due to the ton of changes they did..to the point that players called it Dota 3!
We might just as well call this version War Robots 2. ?
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Post by Team Alpha Strike on Jul 10, 2017 8:00:44 GMT -5
The Tulu/PIN nerf is extremely mild and it won't be noticed. I believe the overall nerf is to add a half second to the unload time to an RDB. This is pretty meaningless with the auto reload mechanic. What I do like is the buff to the Hydras and the Gekkos. I've been trying to prepare for what I believe are the two biggest game changers coming this year ---- the Scourge and the jumping/stealth bot (I care less about the Korean bots actually). My current plan was to upgrade Hydras and Molots so I could fight at a distance. However, this Gekko buff ups the damage of the weapon to better than light hardpoint Molot levels at the 600-800m range. Since I'd rather use a tracking weapon to fight the Korean bots, the Gekkos will be added to the Hydra as my preferred weapons to handle Scourge setups and that new jumping/stealth bot. I already have leveled Molots/Punishers, but they aren't impressive against fast bots - but they will come in handy against Bulgasaris and Lancelots after the bullets-vs-physical shields buff. Overall, I like the weapon's buffs, as faster killing means faster matches. Also, the upcoming Death Match mode will be HELL if the frequency of DRAWS is as high as what I saw on the test servers and I welcome anything that gets the killing done faster. Yeah but do you find firing gekkos and hydras fun? So it becomes effective but having to rely on weapons requiring no leading of shots, no range control, lesser considerations for cover how can it match playing with say rockets, plasma, shotgun where a player needs to anticipate enemy movement, find an exposed side or stalk into knifefighting range? I do like making the game more accessible to new players but lowering the skill ceiling drastically won't help retention of any player, experienced or novice. Gekkos and Hydras really have about the same level of skill as (more or less) than the Zeus or the new Scourge. All those weapons have tracking and are pretty much an auto hit and sure they require less skill to use. However if you really want to consider skill to use, then I'd go even further and lump in the Trident and Mortars with the 4 tracking weapon in category of basically skillless weapons. I mean, both Tridents and Mortars basically ignore cover and don't really require a deft hand to aim due to the enormous fugde factor of the splash radius. So from my point of view, half the weapons in this game are already in the basically skillless lot. The game is becoming less fun for randoms and moving towards squad play and group tactics. When you think of it, a team of 5 pilots all using just the Dash Mk3 (or even all Mk2's) with tri-Scourge would be impossible to beat, as no physical shields would withstand the hits from 6-9 Scourges for more than 1 salvo (i.e. 10 seconds) at 600m (you can forget any unshielded bot - they'll be vaporized by 6-9 Scourges in well under 10 seconds). I see this game becoming extremely inhospitable and frustrating to randoms and all levels, as I can't see much to counter 4-5 Mk2 or Mk3 Scourge setups as a team of randoms. You may not have played this game when the 2/9 Magnum Gepard was the supreme setup in days of lower tier seal clubbing, but it was common to see full squads of five 2/9 Mag Geps swamping randoms. The big challenge was to see who could end a match the quickest and it was common on the old Wiki forum to read about matches ending before the 8 mark (i.e. a 2 minute game). Given the history of that, I have zero doubt that we will see full squads of just Mk2/Mk3's with Scourges running wild on randoms at all league levels. I've said this before about the Scourge on the forum and I see the 2/9 Mag Gepard thing rising again with the Mk2/Mk3 Scourges. This game is going to get REALLY boring once that completly skillless setup dominates the game. Yes, new pilots will be driven from the game. Sorry to go long, but in the end, the thought that Gekkos and Hydras are skillless will be the least of this game's problems after the skilless Scourge gets here. If I was the cynical type, I'd say Pix is setting us up to see the new jumping/stealth bot as our "savior" from the Scourge of the Koreans - cause by the fall, we will all be begging for it to come.
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Post by Dejnov on Jul 10, 2017 8:05:59 GMT -5
What I do like is the buff to the Hydras and the Gekkos. I've been trying to prepare for what I believe are the two biggest game changers coming this year ---- the Scourge and the jumping/stealth bot (I care less about the Korean bots actually). My current plan was to upgrade Hydras and Molots so I could fight at a distance. However, this Gekko buff ups the damage of the weapon to better than light hardpoint Molot levels at the 600-800m range. Since I'd rather use a tracking weapon to fight the Korean bots, the Gekkos will be added to the Hydra as my preferred weapons to handle Scourge setups and that new jumping/stealth bot. I already have leveled Molots/Punishers, but they aren't impressive against fast bots - but they will come in handy against Bulgasaris and Lancelots after the bullets-vs-physical shields buff. Overall, I like the weapon's buffs, as faster killing means faster matches. Also, the upcoming Death Match mode will be HELL if the frequency of DRAWS is as high as what I saw on the test servers and I welcome anything that gets the killing done faster. Yeah but do you find firing gekkos and hydras fun? So it becomes effective but having to rely on weapons requiring no leading of shots, no range control, lesser considerations for cover how can it match playing with say rockets, plasma, shotgun where a player needs to anticipate enemy movement, find an exposed side or stalk into knifefighting range? I do like making the game more accessible to new players but lowering the skill ceiling drastically won't help retention of any player, experienced or novice. So my overall take on the weapon damage upgrades is that this isn't a huge change to the game save for a couple of weapons. Right now the nerf to the tulumbas and pins is much needed (I've faced of an RDB in a DB at close range and he does 'more' damage on the reload than the DB could... which is 「fluffernutter」ed up...). The other weapon buff that is meaningful is the taran/magnum buff... maybe the orkan/pinata buff. The others are basically pointless or non-eventful at this stage. Why do I say this? They were never meta choices to begin with. Upping their damage makes them competitive/it actually doesn't change the damage output of bots or the speed of the game. All it does is give players multiple load outs to maintain the same damage output they've been already capable of dishing out. By far the best example is the spiral upgrade. Nobody uses this weapon, b/c it's damage output is horrible. With the 25% buff... it might be marginal to use again (damn I sold all my spirals...), but I highly doubt it. There are still better choices out there for damage. All this buff does it make it stop being such a 「dookie」ty weapon to maybe a decent alternative, but I doubt it is now 'meta'. So recap: pins/tulumbas are meta at the moment. The other weapons that are potential meta are orkans/pins and tarans/magnums... their buff is quite telling in that the pin/tulumba reload buff was actually huge. Hopefully they'll become meta again... most other buffs are to bring those weapons back to being competitive, but I doubt they'll become meta (save for the Gekko buff... that weapon went from nothing to truly something over the last couple of buff rounds)... Dejnov.
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Post by MCYL on Jul 10, 2017 8:22:20 GMT -5
Yeah but do you find firing gekkos and hydras fun? So it becomes effective but having to rely on weapons requiring no leading of shots, no range control, lesser considerations for cover how can it match playing with say rockets, plasma, shotgun where a player needs to anticipate enemy movement, find an exposed side or stalk into knifefighting range? I do like making the game more accessible to new players but lowering the skill ceiling drastically won't help retention of any player, experienced or novice. Gekkos and Hydras really have about the same level of skill as (more or less) than the Zeus or the new Scourge. All those weapons have tracking and are pretty much an auto hit and sure they require less skill to use. However if you really want to consider skill to use, then I'd go even further and lump in the Trident and Mortars with the 4 tracking weapon in category of basically skillless weapons. I mean, both Tridents and Mortars basically ignore cover and don't really require a deft hand to aim due to the enormous fugde factor of the splash radius. So from my point of view, half the weapons in this game are already in the basically skillless lot. The game is becoming less fun for randoms and moving towards squad play and group tactics. When you think of it, a team of 5 pilots all using just the Dash Mk3 (or even all Mk2's) with tri-Scourge would be impossible to beat, as no physical shields would withstand the hits from 6-9 Scourges for more than 1 salvo (i.e. 10 seconds) at 600m (you can forget any unshielded bot - they'll be vaporized by 6-9 Scourges in well under 10 seconds). I see this game becoming extremely inhospitable and frustrating to randoms and all levels, as I can't see much to counter 4-5 Mk2 or Mk3 Scourge setups as a team of randoms. You may not have played this game when the 2/9 Magnum Gepard was the supreme setup in days of lower tier seal clubbing, but it was common to see full squads of five 2/9 Mag Geps swamping randoms. The big challenge was to see who could end a match the quickest and it was common on the old Wiki forum to read about matches ending before the 8 mark (i.e. a 2 minute game). Given the history of that, I have zero doubt that we will see full squads of just Mk2/Mk3's with Scourges running wild on randoms at all league levels. I've said this before about the Scourge on the forum and I see the 2/9 Mag Gepard thing rising again with the Mk2/Mk3 Scourges. This game is going to get REALLY boring once that completly skillless setup dominates the game. Yes, new pilots will be driven from the game. Sorry to go long, but in the end, the thought that Gekkos and Hydras are skillless will be the least of this game's problems after the skilless Scourge gets here. If I was the cynical type, I'd say Pix is setting us up to see the new jumping/stealth bot as our "savior" from the Scourge of the Koreans - cause by the fall, we will all be begging for it to come. Yeah I was around then except we ran Geps at lv4 with either 5/6/9 or 6/7/7 mags. The clan I was in at the time had leaders with 300+ win streaks. I was about to quit then just before tiers came in. I ran a 9/6/5 gep with 3 thunder Schultz at 4/6 and a 4/6 orkan Cossack. In hindsight I should have kept upgrading in the background instead I just wasted silver buying entire sets of bots because I was bored. I'm not too worried about the change however. If it becomes boring, the simple thing would be to leave. Not so I can "send pix a message" simply because the game won't bother me if I'm not playing it. For what it's worth 2017 has been a fun time on War Robots.
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Post by llama4president on Jul 10, 2017 8:42:51 GMT -5
here is a couple of tables as how damage should be in a normal game: Range
| Damage
| Low Range
| Highest | Mid Range
| Medium | High Range
| Lowest |
and here the damage modifier for the wepon properties Wpn Special Ability
| Damage Modifier
| Small Area Damage
| Malus -
| Medium Area Damage
| Malus - -
| Large Area Damage
| Malus - - -
| Direct Fire
| Bonus +
| Indirect Fire
| Malus -
| Magnetic Aim | Malus -
| Manual Aim
| Bonus +
| Can overcome Obstacles
| Malus -
| Long Reload
| Bonus +
| Medium Reload
| No Modifier
| Short Reload
| Malus -
| No Reload
| Malus - -
| Requires Target Lock
| Bonus +
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Post by Domino on Jul 10, 2017 9:04:01 GMT -5
Whoever thinks Hydra's or Spirals need a bump in dmg are seriously disconnected from the game.
I had 2 guys lock on me in Moon map. My Griffin spawned, jumped and walked to first beacon and was killed 100% by 2 3xHydra Fujin. 135k gone in maybe 15 seconds. They proceeded to wipe out anyone without a Ancile.
Mine you these were level 10+ but again, you have a couple guys comming that can wipe out mostly anyone on the battle field.
Hydra needs a tweak to it's homing so you can actually use a building effectly. There's no rocket that can pull the maneuvers that they show in game. If you give them a buff, make it so you can take cover at least.
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Post by Domino on Jul 10, 2017 9:09:20 GMT -5
You need to start with reviewing these weapons at level 12 vs bots at level 12 to see the 1:1 dmg to health ratio.
Add the fact that almost everyone levels up weapons equal or past the level of the bot.
Now you can get a better idea on meta
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jul 10, 2017 9:29:53 GMT -5
WARNING*** Non-scary "wait and see" post to come... if you don't want any possibly positive thoughts about any of this to invade your brain... please pass over it to continue to rant! Thank you!***WARNING
Well, I have a nice, thick, flame retardant suit on... so I feel like I may survive my next few statements... We, as a forum, are notorious for imagining the worst that could possibly happen and just lamenting the "Best" (which is always in the past, hence the lamenting) that has come and gone. While I am, somewhat, uncomfortable with the, what seem like constant changes... I at least am not going to expect the end of the world because of some balance changes. If they actually are worse than they are now, then I will complain and 「female dog」... but now? There may actually be some good that come from the changes. Granted, for transparency, I am sitting comfortably in a 8.5/9 hangar, with a lot of different weapons that are 9, so I don't have any personal feelings of getting the rug pulled out from under me as far as what I have and haven't upgraded, like I did with the Galahad when 2.9 hit. Galahad and Gary fit my play style better than any other bots, and I have had to completely revamp my hangar and learn new bot/weapon intricacies, expanding my repertoire of bots that I actually feel good piloting. This buff/balance is bringing about a LOT of changes but they are somewhat subtle. They will be noticeable, but are they actually going to change the game for the worst? Maybe, but there may be positive aspects that no one realizes, too. I am not saying it will be a great, happy, unicorns and fairy dust and rainbows type experience, but I am saying that I will not rush to judgement. Too many times the changes hit and it ended up they were not actually that big of a deal, after many "this will destroy my game" type posts. Even if they did cause the change that everyone decried would happen, that change ended up not being so bad. I hope to be able to enjoy what comes... and will be happy with changing what weapons that I have focused on for some bots, and working out the issues with countering those changes on other bots, as well. Yes, there will be some things that are not what some/most people want *ahem, cough HYDRA cough*, but other people, actually DO use them, and if nothing else, facing them will be a challenge. Just saying, I, personally, will wait to tear down Pix and complain until I actually have a reason. Maybe the naysayers and doomsday soothsayers are correct... and nothing in the game will be worth enjoying anymore. But, I do look forward to the discovery of just how those changes affect me and what I can do to incorporate the changes into my hangar. Also... Punishers. IMO, YMMV
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Post by Team Alpha Strike on Jul 10, 2017 9:42:04 GMT -5
Whoever thinks Hydra's or Spirals need a bump in dmg are seriously disconnected from the game. I had 2 guys lock on me in Moon map. My Griffin spawned, jumped and walked to first beacon and was killed 100% by 2 3xHydra Fujin. 135k gone in maybe 15 seconds. They proceeded to wipe out anyone without a Ancile. Mine you these were level 10+ but again, you have a couple guys comming that can wipe out mostly anyone on the battle field. Hydra needs a tweak to it's homing so you can actually use a building effectly. There's no rocket that can pull the maneuvers that they show in game. If you give them a buff, make it so you can take cover at least. This is why I never lead from spawn on the moon map - and why no non-shielded bot should on that map. I am completely for the 15% buff to the Hydras, as this will be the only free weapon that can fight the 600m Scourge weapon setups with any hope of success. The 15% to Hydras is extremely important in giving the Hydras the ability to take down Dash Mk1 and Mk2s in any reasonable amount if time. Anyhow, the Hydras Fujin will be dead meat when the Korean bots get here anyhow and your Griffin will be impossible to move forward once the Scourge gets into the general population. Worse, the Griffin in all setups will be completely dead once the Jumping/stealth bot gets here. Lastly, did you know that one of the few truly effective free weapons against the new jumping/stealth heavy bot will be ---- Hydras? So the way I see it, Hydras are a good foil to 3 of the next OP items coming up - the Koreans (Mk1 and Mk2), the Scourge, and the jumping/stealth heavy bot. Unless you are a wallet warrior, you still think those Hydras don't need a buff?
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Post by zman on Jul 10, 2017 9:50:17 GMT -5
Honestly those values "feel" a bit steep to me, though many of them could use buffs in the 5-15% range. Personally aim a fan of a more incremental adjustment for balance, I don't like the idea of going too far.
Not sure how I feel about the game being more brutal, ie faster meching out, it will definitely affect my play style a bit and will make knifing even bigger risk reward. I think 150% physical damage for bullets might be a bit much, I was thinking +50-100% was a better figure, and coupled with their damage boosts Brit bots will get hit even harder.... and yet their shields will increase in value as sniping becomes more prominent.
I'd like to see some of the weak bots get a boost here as well.
Overall lots of the "weak" weapons are getting a boost, and some of the strongest aren't or boosted Nashorn and no boost for Trident, so that probabaly will be overall good for balance. And the overall decrease in survivabikity will be crucial for the death match mode that is coming, as it stands games would often time out.. Games will potentially be quicker, play styles will change a bit, and the game will go on. The different gameplay modes will definitely play different with more caution beacon games and balls to the walls deathmatches.
So, until we have more reliable information I'm going to remain optimistically neutral. So far Pix has been improving balance and gameplay, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, not sure if these are "final" numbers yet, someone I doubt it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 9:58:11 GMT -5
To be fully honest, and at the risk of my message being disliked by some, I think the community is also responsible for this.
One example. So many people scream "NO NERF ANYMORE". Except nerfs are part of a necessary process. If something becomes too strong and as a result overused, a nerf is still the best way to manage the problem. If you can't nerf, what is the other option ? A large scale buff to all other weapons and this is exactly what is happening here. Is it better in the end ? Hell not, the robots already don't have a very large life-span, now this life-span will be even shorter.
But people that were screaming for no nerf should be happy, there is no real nerf here, just a huge amount of buffs. This is much worse IMO, but this is what happens when a community is pushing in a wrong direction.
I would have very much preferred a direct (and reasonnable) nerf to RDB and some very specific buffs to things that REALLY needed them as I suggested here, instead of a general buff to weapons including some that really didn't need them. A buff to Spydra ? Just laughable, they were already annoying, now they will destroy you from distance and cover. In the end, I think this is just wrong, and in some ways, the community also has a responsibility in this mistake by being closed to the decisions that would need to be sometimes taken for the good of the game.
JMO. Exactly on point. Most of the items being buff did not really need a buff. In fact, most of those weapons needed a nerf. If everyone's already using Orkans and Plasma, why buff them more. They should nerf them, then buff the Machine guns to make them more viable. The only 'Pixonic Way' solution to this problem is to buff the health of ALL robots, because the word nerf doesn't exist in their minds.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jul 10, 2017 10:00:06 GMT -5
Also, to expand a little on what I was saying about having a good bit of weapons that are all at the same level: With the way that Pix has been changing things... for a year now... starting with the original Hydra buff... I am starting to think that the "max out a hangar's worth of stuff" approach to upgrading, may go the way of the dodo. Having an assortment that are all about the same level gives you the ability to adjust to these changes in a less stressful way. I know the desire to get to competition level with 12/12s drives a lot of decisions for a lot of people... but already I find it easy to at least kill bots that are 12s with my level 9s... and maybe even more so after this. True, my low level bots will die even faster than before... but I can still affect a game's outcome that has maxed hangars, conceivably, with level 9s. In some ways, this may actually improve more than just the game modes that haven't hit Last Stand yet.
Just a thought...
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Post by pirateb0t on Jul 10, 2017 10:07:56 GMT -5
It seems to me that pixonic is creating an environment of diminishing returns. Which means that damage still ramps up high the higher level you go but at a certain point every weapon can be deadly so skill comes more into play then. This evens out the huge lvl advantage of higher level players a little but they still get quite a large edge but it's manageable.
Also, to those that keep repeating the meme that hydras are weapons for cheating gays etc.. ever tried you know, using it? It isn't quite as powerful as you think. I run a quad hydra doc quite often and it takes a lot of skill to know when to pull it out. If you sit spamming missiles all game YOUR TEAM WILL LOSE 100% at a rate far higher than normal. It's actually quite a precision weapon to use because you have to focus on specific threats (mostly jumping bots and slow non ancile bots) before ejecting out of the bot into a something that can actually challenge beacons. It doesn't do all that much damage even when maxed out and even WITH a buff it's not a meta changing type weapon at all especially since everyone and their grandmother has an ancile bot around diamond + levels.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jul 10, 2017 10:32:21 GMT -5
It seems to me that pixonic is creating an environment of diminishing returns. Which means that damage still ramps up high the higher level you go but at a certain point every weapon can be deadly so skill comes more into play then. This evens out the huge lvl advantage of higher level players a little but they still get quite a large edge but it's manageable. Also, to those that keep repeating the meme that hydras are weapons for cheating gays etc.. ever tried you know, using it? It isn't quite as powerful as you think. I run a quad hydra doc quite often and it takes a lot of skill to know when to pull it out. If you sit spamming missiles all game YOUR TEAM WILL LOSE 100% at a rate far higher than normal. It's actually quite a precision weapon to use because you have to focus on specific threats before jumping out of the bot into a something that can actually challenge beacons. It doesn't do all that much damage even when maxed out and even WITH a buff it's not a meta changing type weapon at all especially since everyone and their grandmother has an ancile bot around diamond + levels. See... Your post made me think: I'd be interested to see a game where 6 "meta" hydra bots (Doc, Fuji, Spydra or Aphidra) on one team go against 6 Ancile (Ancilot, Carny, Fuji without Hydras, or any other possibly viable Ancile build) bots on the other side. Let's say all weapons and bots are 12. Could be an interesting match-up. Hydras are good, but not great. With the buff... they will edge closer to great, but will they win against a team that is capable of dealing with them? I could see some possibilities for how Team Hydra could do it... but they would have to be coordinated. 1 tactic that could definitely cause issues at the beginning of the match for the Ancile team is if all 6 Hydra bots concentrate fire on 1 Ancile bot... timed so that they are not all firing at the same time but instead dishing out a steady stream of Hydras hitting like a machine gun. Would be Hell. Some normal Clan Squads may run a double or triple Hydra team at various stages of the match... say, towards the end of a match, when light bots come out to clean up beacons for example. It could decisively change some games... I see some good things being possible with enough imagination and desire to win with what tools you have. 3 Hydra Docs working with a good brawler/MR team capable of holding center on maps like Yam where there is usually an established "front line", could make for a very strong offensive defense. Highly mobile and long winded in their attacks, they could make excellent roaming precision strike teams. Especially useful if the team they are going against is not sticking together going against Center in waves... but piecemeal trying to engage separately. 1 target at a time would feel the love of 6 Hydras, constantly (considering the switch mechanism cool down is so close to the Hydra reload) shooting. Short work will be made of any lone, uncovered/unprotected bots. IMO, YMMV
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 10:35:33 GMT -5
All these buffs will make War Robots more like a 3rd person shooter game instead of the slow paced strategy game it was originally.
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Post by Team Alpha Strike on Jul 10, 2017 10:48:08 GMT -5
It seems to me that pixonic is creating an environment of diminishing returns. Which means that damage still ramps up high the higher level you go but at a certain point every weapon can be deadly so skill comes more into play then. This evens out the huge lvl advantage of higher level players a little but they still get quite a large edge but it's manageable. Also, to those that keep repeating the meme that hydras are weapons for cheating gays etc.. ever tried you know, using it? It isn't quite as powerful as you think. I run a quad hydra doc quite often and it takes a lot of skill to know when to pull it out. If you sit spamming missiles all game YOUR TEAM WILL LOSE 100% at a rate far higher than normal. It's actually quite a precision weapon to use because you have to focus on specific threats (mostly jumping bots and slow non ancile bots) before ejecting out of the bot into a something that can actually challenge beacons. It doesn't do all that much damage even when maxed out and even WITH a buff it's not a meta changing type weapon at all especially since everyone and their grandmother has an ancile bot around diamond + levels. I use a Hydra Doc also, but I have quite a different opinion about this. The reason I am 100% for the 15% Hydra buff is that the Quad Hydra Doc will then output 60K of tracking missile damage. This number is extremely important at Master/Champion (i.e. all bots level 11 or 12) because thus extra damage generally shaves 1 extra salvo from every bot you take on. Think about this these level 12 bots agsinsted 15% buffed maxed quad Hydras: -2 Salvos to outright KILL a Dash Mk1 instead of 3 salvos. -2 Salvos to kill a shieldless Carnage instead of 3 salvos (cause Carnages in top level play are usually with zero shields that don't really regenerate). -2 Salvos to cripple a Griffin (2 salvos prior to buff won't do anything). -3 Salvos to kill the Jumping/Stealth heavy bot instead of 4 if its HP at L12 is less than 180K (my guess it will be 158-171K at L12). Once the Hydras are buffed so that the quad Hydra Doc dishes 60K damage they become a totally different animal - just like the RDB Griff after Tuls/PINs buff. Also, remember that the TT and RDB setups were 60K damage per salvo for years and they weren't considered garbage setups. The sliighlty longer unload/reload time of the Quad Hydra setup is offset by the greater amount of available targets that there will be after the Korean bots get here and the higher survivability of the Doc Hydra over setups that deal similar damage. While I do agree that RIGHT NOW that Hydra setups are not really that effective, they will be completly viable after a buff and the Korean bots get here. SUPPORT THE HYDRA BUFF!
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Post by pirateb0t on Jul 10, 2017 10:54:12 GMT -5
It seems to me that pixonic is creating an environment of diminishing returns. Which means that damage still ramps up high the higher level you go but at a certain point every weapon can be deadly so skill comes more into play then. This evens out the huge lvl advantage of higher level players a little but they still get quite a large edge but it's manageable. Also, to those that keep repeating the meme that hydras are weapons for cheating gays etc.. ever tried you know, using it? It isn't quite as powerful as you think. I run a quad hydra doc quite often and it takes a lot of skill to know when to pull it out. If you sit spamming missiles all game YOUR TEAM WILL LOSE 100% at a rate far higher than normal. It's actually quite a precision weapon to use because you have to focus on specific threats before jumping out of the bot into a something that can actually challenge beacons. It doesn't do all that much damage even when maxed out and even WITH a buff it's not a meta changing type weapon at all especially since everyone and their grandmother has an ancile bot around diamond + levels. Some normal Clan Squads may run a double or triple Hydra team at various stages of the match... say, towards the end of a match, when light bots come out to clean up beacons for example. It could decisively change some games... I see some good things being possible with enough imagination and desire to win with what tools you have. 3 Hydra Docs working with a good brawler/MR team capable of holding center on maps like Yam where there is usually an established "front line", could make for a very strong offensive defense. Highly mobile and long winded in their attacks, they could make excellent roaming precision strike teams. Especially useful if the team they are going against is not sticking together going against Center in waves... but piecemeal trying to engage separately. 1 target at a time would feel the love of 6 Hydras, constantly (considering the switch mechanism cool down is so close to the Hydra reload) shooting. Short work will be made of any lone, uncovered/unprotected bots. IMO, YMMV There's a fairly simple counter to coordinated hydra attacks on most long maps and that's a good treb sniper or two. If the hydra bot has to hide behind cover to avoid treb damage then their field of fire is in a predictable cone. I learned from running the doc that when you have a predictable cone of fire in your 600m radius that people will adapt to it pretty easily. Even if people have multiple hydras out that means everyone running the hydra bots have to crowd in behind similar cover with the same fields of fire at certain points to avoid devastating enemy sniper counter fire. On short maps hydras can not stop a coordinated ancilot or fast ancile bot rush at all. No way. I've been on the recieving and giving end of those ancilot rushes many times and it's so fast and ancilots are so buff that there's no way fragile little hydra bots can do anything in time before at least 3-4 beacons are locked down. This is one big issue with hydras. Hydras can be good against randoms and in the chaos of solo play or with a couple teammates against randoms but against an organized clan you will likely just get your butt handed to you trying to coordinate hydra attacks. When you factor in the MK 2 dash then your average hydra user has to be even smarter about when to use that build. Because now you have extremely fast bots with anciles running around the field. The hydra actually has a pretty steep learning curve for a lot of these reasons. I bet most people still won't use it or will use it in a dumb way that will just cause their team to lose and they will shelf it after that.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jul 10, 2017 10:58:26 GMT -5
All these buffs will make War Robots more like a 3rd person shooter game instead of the slow paced strategy game it was originally. Which is how it will draw in the more action oriented players... I know of 1 person, personally, who quit playing a few months ago after getting in Bronze in the old MM, right before the leagues hit, because she could not use the "little fun jumpy bot" as much, without dying. She started playing again, a little, and I showed her the Gary and set her up with it, and she is having a blast again... but still, whenever she is in the Griffin, "I HATE this bot... so SLOOOOOW" is a common sound I hear. The Rog, one of the first bots to go down this path of Run and Gun that you are looking at as a bad thing, is exactly what she needs. She is a tactical player, rather than a strategic player. Personally, I don't know that the tactical shift is a bad thing... as long as it still incorporates some strategy into the matches. A good blend of the 2 will keep the most people happy. The question is, "Will Pix keep it that way or will they push towards a CoD type game? Also, I can't help but think that something I read on one of these threads, it may have been here in this one, is absolutely a good outcome of the changes... squad play will be where the most improvement will be. Direct team interplay. Meaning, someone on the team will have an Ancile bot, a strong Ancile bot so maybe Raijin or Natty or Carny, that escorts the assault team. Sure,that whole concept is known about already, but usually, from what I've seen, many people on this forum say it is a waste. Well, it may be that running dedicated, inter-squad assault teams, or inter-squad support teams, are what makes the game winnable... It may take a double Ancile Carny to do any good against the Punisher Griffs and all that... or, it may be absolute crap and the Puns just destroy it... The fun, for me, will be trying these coordinated tactics and seeing what shakes out of the wash.... just a ball of lint? or that 100$ bill you swore you had in a pocket but couldn't find... Good luck! IMO, YMMV.
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Post by Deadeye on Jul 10, 2017 11:02:45 GMT -5
Nerfs:-Pin and Tulumbas shooting speed reduced. Buffs:-Tempest 20% damage increase. -Gekko 25% damage increase. -Trebuchet 5% damage increase. -Spiral 15% damage increase. -Aphid 5% damage increase. -Hydra 15% damage increase. -Orkan 15% damage increase. -Pinata 5% damage increase. -Magnum 5% damage increase. -Taran 15% damage increase. -Punisher MKI 15% damage increase. -Punisher MKII 25% damage increase. -Molot MKI 15% damage increase. -Molot MKII 20% damage increase. Punishers, Molots, Kang Daes and Nashorns deal 250% damage to physical shields. I'm a bit disappointed with these changes. We don't need more damage in this game, it just serves to burst people down faster, and with the movement abilities the Dash Robots will bring, it is feeling increasingly like Overwatch and less likely a Mech game. Assuming this goes live, I'm pretty sure they're doing it because of Death match games so that half of them don't run down to the ten minute timer. Isn't the much simpler answer for this to just shorten the Death Match timer? They shouldn't kill the main game dynamics and cause more mech-outs in the main game just so they can adjust to a game mode that isn't proven. Tweak the new game mode, not the bots. Buffs/Nerfs happen, but this seems pretty extreme.
I'm also not a fan of the Hydra/Spiral buff. Effective use of cover is one of the hallmarks of a skilled knife fighter, but dodging these homing missiles is nearly impossible if you have anything else to deal with. The only saving grace against them has been that they don't take you down at an alarming rate. Take that away and there's no reason not to have them. All other weapons have a legitimate way of escape, even aphids (don't be slow). Many people remember the Aphid targeting buff, then nerf from the beginning of the year. They were everywhere and you couldn't avoid them. Imagine Aphids from 600m. I know this is an exaggeration, but it's not too far off if you've got 2 or 3 bots doing the same thing. I'm sure many of us have been the victim of a spidra griff on Canyon behind one of those pillars that we can't hit. Imagine 2 of them with 15% more damage. Not. Pretty.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 11:11:25 GMT -5
The thing is, buffs take away more strategy and skill needed in a game. By increasing a weapon's base stats, you are taking away more effort needed to kill an enemy, which turn into less maneuvers and engagements thus meaning whoever shoots first wins. There's already enough of those types of games in the app store out there and War Robots is one of the few games that still have a sliver of strategy in it. I'd like to keep it that way, or perhaps Battle Titans will offer some real strategy instead of a brawling mayhem.
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Post by pirateb0t on Jul 10, 2017 11:12:41 GMT -5
Once the Hydras are buffed so that the quad Hydra Doc dishes 60K damage they become a totally different animal - just like the RDB Griff after Tuls/PINs buff. Also, remember that the TT and RDB setups were 60K damage per salvo for years and they weren't considered garbage setups. The sliighlty longer unload/reload time of the Quad Hydra setup is offset by the greater amount of available targets that there will be after the Korean bots get here and the higher survivability of the Doc Hydra over setups that deal similar damage. While I do agree that RIGHT NOW that Hydra setups are not really that effective, they will be completly viable after a buff and the Korean bots get here. SUPPORT THE HYDRA BUFF! I support the buff too but i'd argue it doesn't really change the meta much. Everyone along with their illegal cousin Jose will own a MK 2 dash at some point and the game will change with people running around like roadrunner mashing their little orange cheeto dipped fingers on the scourge fire button continuously. I'd say the hydra buff is an absolute necessity for it not to go the way of the noricum. It's a road bump in the great scourge apocalypse to come so people complaining about hydra buffs are making mountains out of molehills and not focusing on the real poop storm about to land. On test server it's absolutely nothing to drop a million plus damage with a lvl 8 dash hanger.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jul 10, 2017 11:18:02 GMT -5
Some normal Clan Squads may run a double or triple Hydra team at various stages of the match... say, towards the end of a match, when light bots come out to clean up beacons for example. It could decisively change some games... I see some good things being possible with enough imagination and desire to win with what tools you have. 3 Hydra Docs working with a good brawler/MR team capable of holding center on maps like Yam where there is usually an established "front line", could make for a very strong offensive defense. Highly mobile and long winded in their attacks, they could make excellent roaming precision strike teams. Especially useful if the team they are going against is not sticking together going against Center in waves... but piecemeal trying to engage separately. 1 target at a time would feel the love of 6 Hydras, constantly (considering the switch mechanism cool down is so close to the Hydra reload) shooting. Short work will be made of any lone, uncovered/unprotected bots. IMO, YMMV There's a fairly simple counter to coordinated hydra attacks on most long maps and that's a good treb sniper or two. If the hydra bot has to hide behind cover to avoid treb damage then their field of fire is in a predictable cone. I learned from running the doc that when you have a predictable cone of fire in your 600m radius that people will adapt to it pretty easily. Even if people have multiple hydras out that means everyone running the hydra bots have to crowd in behind similar cover with the same fields of fire at certain points to avoid devastating enemy sniper counter fire. On short maps hydras can not stop a coordinated ancilot or fast ancile bot rush at all. No way. I've been on the recieving and giving end of those ancilot rushes many times and it's so fast and ancilots are so buff that there's no way fragile little hydra bots can do anything in time before at least 3-4 beacons are locked down. This is one big issue with hydras. Hydras can be good against randoms and in the chaos of solo play or with a couple teammates against randoms but against an organized clan you will likely just get your butt handed to you trying to coordinate hydra attacks. When you factor in the MK 2 dash then your average hydra user has to be even smarter about when to use that build. Because now you have extremely fast bots with anciles running around the field. The hydra actually has a pretty steep learning curve for a lot of these reasons. I bet most people still won't use it or will use it in a dumb way that will just cause their team to lose and they will shelf it after that. I get ya, that is why i said "at various times of the Match," presumably, when it is most advantageous to do so... i.e., no snipers and Red team is making a light bot scramble for the beacons. Hydras eat up Jesses and de-stealthed Stalkers. The 6v6 was just a funny idea and I had a large map in mind with it. But for the rest... I mean post-buff. And, I said on a map like Yam working with a good team of bots that are holding down center, in my example. Sure, a random group of Hydra bots on PP with no worries of what the other team are doing are not going to do any good... I mean a squad that works together and uses them correctly. Most of the time you don't see many competitive squads using tactics that involve multiple Hydra bots... and for good reason. After this change and in response to the Dashes, it may well be a viable card to have in your deck. Again, if played at the right time. Say you have 1 Punisher Griff working with your Hydra team... even Ancilots will feel the pain of constant Hydras if the shield multiplier is in play and the Hydras can hit the bot directly and not have to worry about the Ancile. Again, using smart tactics, not being dumb about it, i.e., ignoring what the red team is running, post buff and balance changes, there may be viable options with Hydra teams that weren't there before... I hated playing the Hydras on Fujin or Doc... so I can't say I want this to be a thing... but maybe it will be one of those things that you can do but don't have to. Or, it may be crap and Hydras still suck... Hell, I don't know.
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Post by Team Alpha Strike on Jul 10, 2017 11:34:09 GMT -5
Some normal Clan Squads may run a double or triple Hydra team at various stages of the match... say, towards the end of a match, when light bots come out to clean up beacons for example. It could decisively change some games... I see some good things being possible with enough imagination and desire to win with what tools you have. 3 Hydra Docs working with a good brawler/MR team capable of holding center on maps like Yam where there is usually an established "front line", could make for a very strong offensive defense. Highly mobile and long winded in their attacks, they could make excellent roaming precision strike teams. Especially useful if the team they are going against is not sticking together going against Center in waves... but piecemeal trying to engage separately. 1 target at a time would feel the love of 6 Hydras, constantly (considering the switch mechanism cool down is so close to the Hydra reload) shooting. Short work will be made of any lone, uncovered/unprotected bots. IMO, YMMV There's a fairly simple counter to coordinated hydra attacks on most long maps and that's a good treb sniper or two. If the hydra bot has to hide behind cover to avoid treb damage then their field of fire is in a predictable cone. I learned from running the doc that when you have a predictable cone of fire in your 600m radius that people will adapt to it pretty easily. Even if people have multiple hydras out that means everyone running the hydra bots have to crowd in behind similar cover with the same fields of fire at certain points to avoid devastating enemy sniper counter fire. On short maps hydras can not stop a coordinated ancilot or fast ancile bot rush at all. No way. I've been on the recieving and giving end of those ancilot rushes many times and it's so fast and ancilots are so buff that there's no way fragile little hydra bots can do anything in time before at least 3-4 beacons are locked down. This is one big issue with hydras. Hydras can be good against randoms and in the chaos of solo play or with a couple teammates against randoms but against an organized clan you will likely just get your butt handed to you trying to coordinate hydra attacks. When you factor in the MK 2 dash then your average hydra user has to be even smarter about when to use that build. Because now you have extremely fast bots with anciles running around the field. The hydra actually has a pretty steep learning curve for a lot of these reasons. I bet most people still won't use it or will use it in a dumb way that will just cause their team to lose and they will shelf it after that. You might think that I WANT to use a Quad Hydra Doc, but I don't. I intend only using this setup after the Koreans/Scourge get here simply because it's a logical choice - consider these replies to your post: -If Trebs (any bot/any setup) are an answer to a Quad Hydra Doc then you've affirmed my reason to use a Quad Hydra Doc. -There will be far less Ancilots once the Koreans get here and most likely insignificant number of Ancilots once the Jumping/stealth bot gets here. -Dash Mk2 is not a good Hydra Doc hunter. It's shield is its only protection and in top level play that shield will be zeroed out from a distance with RDBs or TTs ---- if the bot isn't outright killed by a tri-Scourge setup from mid-range to knifer ranges. -Scourge setups will CRUSH non-Physical shield setups that use LOS weapons from 1000m down. You can forget the viability of a Treb ANYTHING setup, as this will be manhandled by Rhino/Lancelot/Bulgasari setups using multiple Scourge weapons as they make the 400m range advantage insignificance. All heavy LOS 1000m weapons will simply not be a factor after the age of Scourge starts there will be basically no reason to use a weapon that confers so little benefit over the 600/800m ranged weapons. -Why are you assuming Hydra pilots won't up their game? The 15% on the Hydras is HUGE and I'd bet many FTP (cause the Doc is a free bot now that IP can be bought with saved gold) will "git gud" with it.
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Post by pirateb0t on Jul 10, 2017 11:50:41 GMT -5
There's a fairly simple counter to coordinated hydra attacks on most long maps and that's a good treb sniper or two. If the hydra bot has to hide behind cover to avoid treb damage then their field of fire is in a predictable cone. I learned from running the doc that when you have a predictable cone of fire in your 600m radius that people will adapt to it pretty easily. Even if people have multiple hydras out that means everyone running the hydra bots have to crowd in behind similar cover with the same fields of fire at certain points to avoid devastating enemy sniper counter fire. On short maps hydras can not stop a coordinated ancilot or fast ancile bot rush at all. No way. I've been on the recieving and giving end of those ancilot rushes many times and it's so fast and ancilots are so buff that there's no way fragile little hydra bots can do anything in time before at least 3-4 beacons are locked down. This is one big issue with hydras. Hydras can be good against randoms and in the chaos of solo play or with a couple teammates against randoms but against an organized clan you will likely just get your butt handed to you trying to coordinate hydra attacks. When you factor in the MK 2 dash then your average hydra user has to be even smarter about when to use that build. Because now you have extremely fast bots with anciles running around the field. The hydra actually has a pretty steep learning curve for a lot of these reasons. I bet most people still won't use it or will use it in a dumb way that will just cause their team to lose and they will shelf it after that. You might think that I WANT to use a Quad Hydra Doc, but I don't. I intend only using this setup after the Koreans/Scourge get here simply because it's a logical choice - consider these replies to your post: -If Trebs (any bot/any setup) are an answer to a Quad Hydra Doc then you've affirmed my reason to use a Quad Hydra Doc. -There will be far less Ancilots once the Koreans get here and most likely insignificant number of Ancilots once the Jumping/stealth bot gets here. -Dash Mk2 is not a good Hydra Doc hunter. It's shield is its only protection and in top level play that shield will be zeroed out from a distance with RDBs or TTs ---- if the bot isn't outright killed by a tri-Scourge setup from mid-range to knifer ranges. -Scourge setups will CRUSH non-Physical shield setups that use LOS weapons from 600m down. You can forget the viability of a Treb ANYTHING setup, as this will be manhandled by Rhino/Lancelot/Bulgasari setups using multiple Scourge weapons. All heavy LOS 1000m weapons will simply not be a factor after the age of Scourge starts there will be basically no reason to use a weapon that confers so little benefit over the 600/800m ranged weapons. -Why are you assuming Hydra pilots won't up their game? The 15% on the Hydras is HUGE and I'd bet many FTP (cause the Doc is a free bot now that IP can be bought with saved gold) will "git gud" with it. Scourge is such a 「slowly」 powerful weapon I haven't given up hope yet that Pixonic will come to their senses at the last minute and not release it as it exists on test server yet. However, if they do I predict some hilarious results to occur such as when little rich kids with their MK2 dash hangers full of tri scourges hump everyone to death like roided up gorillas. It won't matter what you're running when that scenario happens. The meta will simply be "do you have scourges on it?" If not then your bots will be relegated to the trash bin. Hydras can't knock down the shields of a MK2 fast enough before the MK2 can wreak total havoc against your team anyhow. A mk2 is quick and small enough to hide behind some pretty tricky cover too. Hydras can home in a lot of places but it can get real tricky with a fast bot with shields that is also small enough to wall hug well. Nothing has to actually hunt the hydra bot..they just have to be faster and better at grabbing beacons and annhilating your team. This is the big weakness of running hydra anything..you still have to be effective enough to be more than a nuisance. I use it as a scalpel to remove pesky bots so I can bring in my knifers. I've learned it's most effective this way and even post buff I don't see that role changing. A hydra bot isn't a primary damage dealer and never will be. A rdb will also somewhat nerfed and its slow missile speed will be even more of a detriment when dashes drop. They can simply evade a lot of missile fire and come at you with longer distance weapons (scourge) Even if scourge turns out to not be the god weapon when released on live server a mk2 dash with tri tulumbas would still be extremely nasty and hard to kill for a rdb.
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Post by hyderier on Jul 10, 2017 11:56:28 GMT -5
While I do agree that RIGHT NOW that Hydra setups are not really that effective, they will be completly viable after a buff and the Korean bots get here. SUPPORT THE HYDRA BUFF! No. Because Hydras being effective is worse than Trident Furies being effective. It stagnates the game. Except Hydras are much easier to come by than TT Furies. So I guess it's fair in a way. Anybody can join the fun. Spydra Griffin is just 11k WSP. Fujin only about 30k. Both are peanuts compared to 5k Au + 22k WSP for TT Fury. And then there,s the poor mans pure Ag choice, Spiral Patton. Imagine a game with just 3 red Hydra-Spiral spammers. Only way to have fun in such a match is, if you have an Ancile bot (Carnage doesn't really count here), or a sniper (in Canyon/SF), or if you join the "fun" and field Hydras yourself. Trident Carnage might be ok, skirting the 600m range preventing targetting, and able to hit around corners a bit. If homing missiles ever become actually effective, it'll snowball out of control, similar to how TT Furies snowballed in some ancient history, as they were bots you could only really fight with other TT Furies (until Ancelot arrived, at least). Or so I have been led to believe, I wasn't playing back then (and don't have TT Fury yet, and not for half a year more at least unless I get one from a chest). DON'T SUPPORT HYDRA AND SPIRAL BUFF.
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Post by pirateb0t on Jul 10, 2017 12:06:14 GMT -5
If you can't deal with hydras now as they exist and perhaps even post buff then i'd say it's most likely your skill lvl vs the enemy pilot's skill lvl and not at all the weapon of choice. They would probably rip you a new bung hole 1 vs 1 with any bot at the same level.
Until hydras magically can pass through energy shields and physical shields they will remain a very limited use weapon...buff or not. You can curve hydras around shields right now but it does take quite a bit of effort to do it well too.
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Post by zer00eyz on Jul 10, 2017 14:04:25 GMT -5
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