|
|
Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 8:53:58 GMT -5
I think it could make for an interesting thread.
We all know the value of the robots don't necessarily represent their true power currently. The typical example is with the britbots, finding a Gareth with the same price than a Gepard is a joke, same case for the Galahad and the Rogatka. Similarly, the Griffin can be found up to the higher tiers, unlike comparable (in price/class) like the Leo or the Natasha which raises the question that its real value is actually superior to the other two.
Now, forgetting the current values, what would be the values of robots that would seem the most fair for the game ?
My take :
Light Robots
Destrier : 75k -> 100k.
Schutze : 150k -> 200k.
Cossack : 150k -> 300k. A slight increase of both Schutze and Cossack would represent also a slight progression in the game.
Gepard : 1’200 gold -> 1’000 gold with a little buff on the speed to make it relevant again (speed should increase with upgrades just like other robots)
Stalker : 7’500 WSP -> Fine.
Gareth : 1’250 gold -> Vastly outperform other lights, so I see two possibilities here :
1. 1’500 gold with a little nerf on the shield/speed to reduce the difference with the Gepard which is abyssal right now. Basically the Gareth should be slower, but the shield would still make it to be more durable overall hence the fact the Gareth would still cost more than a Gepard.
2. 1’000 gold with a more significant nerf on the shield/speed to make it “back” to its class of robots (same level as a Gepard). It is my favourite option as I think it would make sense to have both Gepard and Gareth at the same level (but will never happen).
OVERALL TAKE : Those change would make relevant again the Gepard, and would “bring back” Gareth to earth (sorry Gareths lovers).
Medium Robots
Vityaz : 500k -> 1M.
Patton : 500k -> 1M.
Boa : 500k -> 1M.
Golem : 500k -> 1M.
Rogatka : 2’500 gold -> 2’000 gold. And should have a little buff to make it a good option.
Carnage : 13’000 WSP -> Fine.
Fujin : 13’000 WSP -> Fine.
Galahad : 2’500 gold -> 3’000 gold. A slight increase as it is not that far from being the best in the game. A little nerf on the speed would make sense as right now, it is arguably just as good as a Lancelot which doesn’t make sense considering their respective prices.
OVERALL TAKE : The mediums would cost more, so the new players would need a few more games to access them which makes sense. The Rogatka would be back into the game and the Galahad would be a bit harder to get.
Heavy Robots
Griffin : 1’700k -> 3’000 gold. Griffin should have been a gold robot. Basically a heavier Rogatka.
Leo : 1’700k -> 3’000k silver.
Fury : 5’000 gold -> Fine.
Natasha : 1’700k -> -> 3’000k silver.
Rhino : 15’000 WSP -> Fine.
Rajin : 15’000 WSP -> Fine.
Lancelot : 5’000 gold -> Fine.
OVERALL TAKE : Griffin would be just like the Galahad a 3k gold robot. More people would buy Leo or Natasha as a result (in despite of their increase in value) which would diversify the game.
I know by creating this thread, I naturally expose myself to the "don't touch anything" crowd, especially when this crowd has robots that could be impacted. Regardless, if you think about it, those changes would make sense and would give a much more fair value for some of the robots that are currently into the game.
Thoughts ?
|
|
|
|
Post by gr3ygh05t on Mar 15, 2017 9:22:53 GMT -5
Gary needs a nerf. The medium slots needs to be downgraded to a light slot. Even with the nerf the gary would still be the best light bot.
Vityaz needs speed to differentiate it from other mediums (make it the fastest medium bot) and the boa needs health but a speed nerf to punctuate it's tankiness.
The galahad needs a 10% nerf to the shield health and minor speed nerf (just enough so it can't back pedal)
Also if you plan to increase silver prices, Ag rewards should be increased as well as silver is hard enough to acquire as it is.
|
|
|
|
Post by War Child on Mar 15, 2017 9:29:49 GMT -5
I think it could make for an interesting thread.
We all know the value of the robots don't necessarily represent their true power currently. The typical example is with the britbots, finding a Gareth with the same price than a Gepard is a joke, same case for the Galahad and the Rogatka. Similarly, the Griffin can be found up to the higher tiers, unlike comparable (in price/class) like the Leo or the Natasha which raises the question that its real value is actually superior to the other two.
Now, forgetting the current values, what would be the values of robots that would seem the most fair for the game ?
My take :
Light Robots
Destrier : 75k -> 100k.
Schutze : 150k -> fine.
Cossack : 150k -> fine. A slight increase of both Schutze and Cossack would represent also a slight progression in the game.
Gepard : 1’200 gold -> fine. with a little buff on the speed to make it relevant again (speed should increase with upgrades just like other robots)
Stalker : 7’500 WSP -> Fine.
Gareth : 1’250 gold -> Vastly outperform other lights, so I see two possibilities here :
1. 1’500 gold.
2. 1’200 gold with a slight nerf on the shield and speed to make it “back” to its class of robots (same level as a Gepard). It is my favourite option as I think it would make sense to have both Gepard and Gareth at the same level (but will never happen).
OVERALL TAKE : Those change would make relevant again the Gepard, and would “bring back” Gareth to earth (sorry Gareths lovers).
Medium Robots
Vityaz : 500k -> fine
Patton : 500k -> 750k
Boa : 500k -> 1M.
Golem : 500k -> 750k.
Rogatka : 2’500 gold -> 2’000 gold. And should have a little buff to make it a good option.
Carnage : 13’000 WSP -> Fine.
Fujin : 13’000 WSP -> Fine.
Galahad : 2’500 gold -> 3’000 gold. A slight increase as it is not that far from being the best in the game. A little nerf on the speed would make sense as right now, it is arguably just as good as a Lancelot which doesn’t make sense considering their respective prices.
OVERALL TAKE : The mediums would cost more, so the new players would need a few more games to access them which makes sense. The Rogatka would be back into the game and the Galahad would be a bit harder to get.
Heavy Robots
Griffin : 1’700k -> 3’000 gold(dafaq?). Griffin should have been a gold robot. Basically a heavier Rogatka.(ok,give it a buff by increasing speed and hp by 25%)
Leo : 1’700k -> 3’000k silver.
Fury : 5’000 gold -> Fine.
Natasha : 1’700k -> -> 2’500k silver.
Rhino : 15’000 WSP -> 20k/fine
Rajin : 15’000 WSP -> 13k/fine
Lancelot : 5’000 gold -> Fine.
OVERALL TAKE : Griffin would be just like the Galahad a 3k gold robot. More people would buy Leo or Natasha as a result (in despite of their increase in value) which would diversify the game.
I know by creating this thread, I naturally expose myself to the "don't touch anything" crowd, especially when this crowd has robots that could be impacted. Regardless, if you think about it, those changes would make sense and would give a much more fair value for some of the robots that are currently into the game.
Thoughts ?
I never truly understand why you hate the griffin so much XD,fixed it for you BTW. |
|
|
|
Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 9:33:31 GMT -5
gr3ygh05t I agree totally with everything you said, except the last point. It's Ok if steps are a bit longer to access mediums and heavies. When I started in January, I was already with heavies after two or three weeks. It is too fast, especially considering after, changes are much slower. I think we can afford a little longer access to the mediums and heavies, that would also give a better sense of accomplishment and progression when accessing those robots. If we really think about this, 1M (for a medium) or 3M (for a heavy) would still comes relatively fast in the end.
|
|
|
|
Post by mijapi300 on Mar 15, 2017 9:33:46 GMT -5
I find it interesting that people think a bot needs a nerf when a majority of the forum members view the bot as useless in higher tiers. How can a bot that's deemed useless by the majority of players require a nerf?
The "it's the best light bot" is a dumb argument. In the overall scheme of the game, is it overpowered? No, then it shouldn't be nerfed.
I'm not just trying to advocate against a nerf because I use the bot, but because I think that's pretty hypocritical, and am genuinely interested in your justification (unless it's the bogus one above).
In general, people throw the term "nerf" around far too lightly. That term has ruined and essentially removed bots from the game before, and has ruined many other games before too.
|
|
|
|
Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 9:38:09 GMT -5
I never truly understand why you hate the griffin so much XD,fixed it for you BTW. I actually like it 
I just think it is superior to its two direct comparable which are the Leo and the Natasha.
It's fine to keep it as it is, but it would make so much more sense to have it a gold robot. Basically a heavier Rogatka. It would also be more coherent in the sense that to me, any robot you should find in TT should be gold robots. It's really weird to see a silver robot actually rated so high right now.
JMO of course.
|
|
|
|
Post by War Child on Mar 15, 2017 9:44:34 GMT -5
I find it interesting that people think a bot needs a nerf when a majority of the forum members view the bot as useless in higher tiers. How can a bot that's deemed useless by the majority of players require a nerf? The "it's the best light bot" is a dumb argument. In the overall scheme of the game, is it overpowered? No, then it shouldn't be nerfed. I'm not just trying to advocate against a nerf because I use the bot, but because I think that's pretty hypocritical, and am genuinely interested in your justification (unless it's the bogus one above). In general, people throw the term "nerf" around far too lightly. That term has ruined and essentially removed bots from the game before, and has ruined many other games before too. Yes,I can agree with you there.There was a YouTube video about how buffing and nerfing can get to people.It seems that buffing the weaker ones made more of a positive impact on players compared to nerfing the stronger ones made double the negatives.But this is knida off topic |
|
|
|
Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 9:46:22 GMT -5
I find it interesting that people think a bot needs a nerf when a majority of the forum members view the bot as useless in higher tiers. How can a bot that's deemed useless by the majority of players require a nerf? The "it's the best light bot" is a dumb argument. In the overall scheme of the game, is it overpowered? No, then it shouldn't be nerfed. I'm not just trying to advocate against a nerf because I use the bot, but because I think that's pretty hypocritical, and am genuinely interested in your justification (unless it's the bogus one above). In general, people throw the term "nerf" around far too lightly. That term has ruined and essentially removed bots from the game before, and has ruined many other games before too. I think I already said enough on the Gareth, TBH.
And I don't think it is a "dumb" argument to say it is way too strong in comparison to other lights. It's like playing a car game and saying a car from the lower category happens to be much faster than cars from upper categories. Also it is a fact that right now, it costs basically the same as a Gepard and it doesn't make sense at all. So if you want fair value for robots, either you buf one and nerf the other, or you adapt values. I personally would prefer the Gareth to be "lowered" at the level of the Gepard so it could be a fair choice, but in the grand scheme of things, both are light robots and should be treated as such IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by gr3ygh05t on Mar 15, 2017 9:49:13 GMT -5
I find it interesting that people think a bot needs a nerf when a majority of the forum members view the bot as useless in higher tiers. How can a bot that's deemed useless by the majority of players require a nerf? The "it's the best light bot" is a dumb argument. In the overall scheme of the game, is it overpowered? No, then it shouldn't be nerfed. I'm not just trying to advocate against a nerf because I use the bot, but because I think that's pretty hypocritical, and am genuinely interested in your justification (unless it's the bogus one above). In general, people throw the term "nerf" around far too lightly. That term has ruined and essentially removed bots from the game before, and has ruined many other games before too. The problem is that the game over emphasizes damage over area control. When pix fixes this or adds another victory condition or perhaps bigger maps, the value of fast and light bots will increase.
|
|
|
|
Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 9:50:55 GMT -5
I find it interesting that people think a bot needs a nerf when a majority of the forum members view the bot as useless in higher tiers. How can a bot that's deemed useless by the majority of players require a nerf? The "it's the best light bot" is a dumb argument. In the overall scheme of the game, is it overpowered? No, then it shouldn't be nerfed. I'm not just trying to advocate against a nerf because I use the bot, but because I think that's pretty hypocritical, and am genuinely interested in your justification (unless it's the bogus one above). In general, people throw the term "nerf" around far too lightly. That term has ruined and essentially removed bots from the game before, and has ruined many other games before too. Yes,I can agree with you there.There was a YouTube video about how buffing and nerfing can get to people.It seems that buffing the weaker ones made more of a positive impact on players compared to nerfing the stronger ones made double the negatives.But this is knida off topic I think it is a totally fair concern, that I purposely left out of my original message. My goal was to find the value which would be the most fair, but now, I could totally understand it may be sensitive to change values or capacities. If you buy a Rogatka at 2'5k and see it at 2k the next day, of course it can raise some eyebrows.
Looking at things with a distance, I don't think it would kill anything though. It's never bad to make a game more fair, even if it comes at the cost of hard decisions sometimes. And right now, it is a fact that some of the values are really far off, to say the least.
|
|
|
|
Post by Shahmatt on Mar 15, 2017 9:51:06 GMT -5
I do not agree that Gary needs a nerf. It is only powerful in skilled hands, and even then requires some luck to persist and stay effective.
|
|
|
|
Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Mar 15, 2017 9:52:14 GMT -5
In the overall scheme of the game, is it overpowered? No, then it shouldn't be nerfed. A light bot that is superior to most medium bots and can take head on most heavy bots and live to tell the story? It's kinda the definition of OP, yes. |
|
|
|
Post by Trogon on Mar 15, 2017 9:54:23 GMT -5
The problem is that the game over emphasizes damage over area control. When pix fixes this or adds another victory condition or perhaps bigger maps, the value of fast and light bots will increase. I'm not sure what you mean by this. The primary victory condition in most games is already about area control (holding beacons). Relatively few games are decided by meching out the other team, at least at mid-high levels. |
|
|
|
Post by Trogon on Mar 15, 2017 9:55:48 GMT -5
In the overall scheme of the game, is it overpowered? No, then it shouldn't be nerfed. A light bot that is superior to most medium bots and can take head on most heavy bots and live to tell the story? It's kinda the definition of OP, yes. heavy bots, yes. Most heavy bots? Not imo. You have to pick and choose your battles in a Gary. |
|
|
|
Post by gr3ygh05t on Mar 15, 2017 9:56:28 GMT -5
The problem is that the game over emphasizes damage over area control. When pix fixes this or adds another victory condition or perhaps bigger maps, the value of fast and light bots will increase. I'm not sure what you mean by this. The primary victory condition in most games is already about area control (holding beacons). Relatively few games are decided by meching out the other team, at least at mid-high levels. League points is based on damage. You can win but with damage you will gain at max +2 league points. Emphasizing beacons on a losing team will earn you a -15 to -20.
I've played a lot games recently where both teams just rush the middle to deal as much damage as possible to gain league points regardless of victory.
|
|
|
|
Post by Trogon on Mar 15, 2017 9:58:35 GMT -5
Yes, I agree about league points. In fact, I think league points and leagues in general have caused a lot more problems than they solved. But that's for another thread...
|
|
|
|
Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Mar 15, 2017 10:03:26 GMT -5
There are Plenty of instances where the "BEST BOT EVAH!" was eclipsed by a new bot. The Gary > Gep thing is not the first time. It's what games do to keep content coming, money flowing, and the game feeling fresh. It's not always loved, but it is what is done.
The Rhino changed the entire game when it came out.
The Rog and the Gep were pure terrors for a while.
The Spiders didnt do too much at the time... but are now gaining prominence... a little.
The Britbots were a step up, no doubt, but they still can be beaten.
The WWBs aren't the best in the world, but provide variety.
The Dash bots could very possibly skew the field even further, and Gary will not be the best "class doesn't matter" bot, anymore.
Nerfing is not the answer unless there is NO WAY to counter it. As it is, Gary and Gala are very counterable. I'm both a pilot of those bots, and a killer of those bots. It's not some unreachable goal. I can kill both in a Thunder/Ork Boa, for instance. You just have to play their game, better than they do. Also, I keep seeing people refer to the classes in a way that says that one should trump another. Why? Who says that should be the case? Heavies aren't automatically supposed to be better than all mediums and lights. They are DIFFERENT, but not meant to be the best... each class has bots that rock in higher tiers and bots that suck in higher tiers. It is more a preference thing. There are plenty of real world instances to the contrary in the modern military world. A small Aegis missile boat destroyer, for instance, could decimate a navy from 3-4 decades ago, single-handedly. As new tech emerges, old things become obsolete. The game is obviously heading down that road. Thing is, you can still make the old stuff work... it just isn't the top dog anymore.
JMO YMMV.
|
|
|
|
Post by Conflict's Student on Mar 15, 2017 10:05:45 GMT -5
Looks like someone has a hangar full of bots from old metas (gepard, rogatka) and is trying to drum up support for buffs under the guise of pricing discussion, along with nerfs to the platforms he can't handle (britbots, and admittedly that's based on comments seen in other threads). If you're asking for buffs and nerfs to shift game balance in your favor, please just admit it up front and don't try to sneak it in under the cover of discussing entry costs - which are minimal in the grand scheme of hangar cost (i.e. upgrades). Yes, I'm a cynic... but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
And no, I don't agree that your bots need buffs and others need nerfs - despite your including support for my favored Griffin, which is fine just as it is. For example, Gareth doesn't need a nerf because then fewer people would feed them to my RDB Griff. The only adjustment you suggest that I might support is making Rogatka more interesting because almost no one drives them today - but I still wouldn't endorse a direct buff. It wouldn't take much to make Rog overpowered again because two medium hardpoints bring significant firepower inside 350m, where speed and agility are king. Maybe give it a bigger jump with longer recharge, so it maintains the same "speed over ground" but can clear slightly bigger distances at a time (although at the expense of being a juicy target for slightly longer).
|
|
|
|
Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Mar 15, 2017 10:10:43 GMT -5
Some heavy bots, yes. Most heavy bots? Not imo. You have to pick and choose your battles in a Gary. So.. you can easily kill Griffins and Leos. no question there (avoiding first blast, if in rocket configs, but that's generally healty for all bots). Furies and Natashas can be problematic to get close, but once there you can usually run to their face and stomp them (with just about any bot, truly). Maybe Raijin, Rhinos and Lancelots cannot be taken head on due shields, but if you manage to get close, circling the pachiderms is not much of a problem. In fact, gareths, in my exprience, are usually killed by supporting fire, not by their target itself. Even not counting the last 3, it is still 4 out of 7. Most. Of course, timing and identifying quickly if it's plasma or rockets is fundamental, so I agree on the pick and choose, but the point is, the very point that a light bot is able to even pick a fight with an heavy makes it the definition of OP. |
|
|
|
Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 10:19:39 GMT -5
Looks like someone has a hangar full of bots from old metas (gepard, rogatka) and is trying to drum up support for buffs under the guise of pricing discussion, along with nerfs to the platforms he can't handle (britbots, and admittedly that's based on comments seen in other threads). If you're asking for buffs and nerfs to shift game balance in your favor, please just admit it up front and don't try to sneak it in under the cover of discussing entry costs - which are minimal in the grand scheme of hangar cost (i.e. upgrades). Yes, I'm a cynic... but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
I don't know if it's cynic, but lame and wrong, yes it is.
I think it would be nice if we could leave the "you want this because of this" and other knee-jerk "you don't know how to manage it so you want to nerf" out of here. This is ridiculous. I am in diamond now with a much lower hangar than people around, so I guess I know how to play the game at a very solid level. I have enough gold to buy a Gareth right now, and I could buy an army of Griffins. But that's not the point... at all.
The point is that there are significant unbalances in characteristics, or at the very least mismatched values. I see two gold light bots sold at the same price with completely different levels. I see a medium (Rogatka) which is not used anymore. I see avalanches of Griffins everywhere including in TT, while the bot is a silver robot sold at the same price as a Leo or a Natasha. I could go on. I think starting from there, it can be a very relevant topic of discussion to discuss the value of the bots, if OF COURSE, everybody act as an adult and drop the cheapshots. Which is not a given on internet, sure.
|
|
|
|
Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Mar 15, 2017 10:24:31 GMT -5
Some heavy bots, yes. Most heavy bots? Not imo. You have to pick and choose your battles in a Gary. So.. you can easily kill Griffins and Leos. no question there (avoiding first blast, if in rocket configs, but that's generally healty for all bots). Furies and Natashas can be problematic to get close, but once there you can usually run to their face and stomp them (with just about any bot, truly). Maybe Raijin, Rhinos and Lancelots cannot be taken head on due shields, but if you manage to get close, circling the pachiderms is not much of a problem. In fact, gareths, in my exprience, are usually killed by supporting fire, not by their target itself. Even not counting the last 3, it is still 4 out of 7. Most. Of course, timing and identifying quickly if it's plasma or rockets is fundamental, so I agree on the pick and choose, but the point is, the very point that a light bot is able to even pick a fight with an heavy makes it the definition of OP. Why is it an absolute in your mind that a Heavy should be better than a Medium and a Medium should be better than a Light? Where does it say that in the rules of War Robots? I'm not picking on you, I'm serious. There are competitive bots in every class. As there should be. |
|
|
|
Post by loren on Mar 15, 2017 10:27:27 GMT -5
There is no need to increase or decrease the cost of the bots, most smalls and nearly all mediums are rather useless with the new system. They are only useful to the newbs coming into the game, the last thing you want to do is make those bots harder to get for the new pilots. The Gareth is the only useful small bot for the higher tiers and even then it is easy to kill, it needs no nerf as it is sub par now. The Gepard is dead and has no use since there are faster bots that have better abilities (Stalker & Gareth). The whole game has moved away from playable tiers and into slow maxed hangars, unless you drop or tank your rank you will not find a level playing field until you max your metal (This is why I like playing on test now more then production server, there it is about pilot skill rather then bot/weapon strength). I have a hangar full of small and medium bots that will never see the battle field again, it makes no sense to create more expensive paper weights. The absolute last thing I want to see are more nerfs to bots that have a limited life span with the new system, what they need to focus on is the mountain of issues with the new MM and bugs that currently litter the battlefield.
|
|
|
|
Post by mijapi300 on Mar 15, 2017 10:36:30 GMT -5
There are Plenty of instances where the "BEST BOT EVAH!" was eclipsed by a new bot. The Gary > Gep thing is not the first time. It's what games do to keep content coming, money flowing, and the game feeling fresh. It's not always loved, but it is what is done. The Rhino changed the entire game when it came out. The Rog and the Gep were pure terrors for a while. The Spiders didnt do too much at the time... but are now gaining prominence... a little. The Britbots were a step up, no doubt, but they still can be beaten. The WWBs aren't the best in the world, but provide variety. The Dash bots could very possibly skew the field even further, and Gary will not be the best "class doesn't matter" bot, anymore. Nerfing is not the answer unless there is NO WAY to counter it. As it is, Gary and Gala are very counterable. I'm both a pilot of those bots, and a killer of those bots. It's not some unreachable goal. I can kill both in a Thunder/Ork Boa, for instance. You just have to play their game, better than they do. Also, I keep seeing people refer to the classes in a way that says that one should trump another. Why? Who says that should be the case? Heavies aren't automatically supposed to be better than all mediums and lights. They are DIFFERENT, but not meant to be the best... each class has bots that rock in higher tiers and bots that suck in higher tiers. It is more a preference thing. There are plenty of real world instances to the contrary in the modern military world. A small Aegis missile boat destroyer, for instance, could decimate a navy from 3-4 decades ago, single-handedly. As new tech emerges, old things become obsolete. The game is obviously heading down that road. Thing is, you can still make the old stuff work... it just isn't the top dog anymore. JMO YMMV. Very well written response. You summed up why I called the "it's a light bot" argument stupid. There is no reason that all light bots and medium bots should be inherently obsolete, just because they aren't heavy bots. I've never understood this whole "mine's bigger so it should be better" mentality. Yours is bigger, so it's different. You can get away with more head on engagements. In my light bot, I have to play more strategically to get my little bugger to last longer. And I have less firepower than you. If and when I beat your heavy bot with my Gareth, it's because I played the situation better than you did, not because my bot was OP. |
|
|
|
Post by mijapi300 on Mar 15, 2017 10:37:08 GMT -5
Some heavy bots, yes. Most heavy bots? Not imo. You have to pick and choose your battles in a Gary. So.. you can easily kill Griffins and Leos. no question there (avoiding first blast, if in rocket configs, but that's generally healty for all bots). Furies and Natashas can be problematic to get close, but once there you can usually run to their face and stomp them (with just about any bot, truly). Maybe Raijin, Rhinos and Lancelots cannot be taken head on due shields, but if you manage to get close, circling the pachiderms is not much of a problem. In fact, gareths, in my exprience, are usually killed by supporting fire, not by their target itself. Even not counting the last 3, it is still 4 out of 7. Most. Of course, timing and identifying quickly if it's plasma or rockets is fundamental, so I agree on the pick and choose, but the point is, the very point that a light bot is able to even pick a fight with an heavy makes it the definition of OP. You're running multiple Gareths in your hangar then, right? |
|
|
|
Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Mar 15, 2017 10:41:46 GMT -5
Why is it an absolute in your mind that a Heavy should be better than a Medium and a Medium should be better than a Light? Where does it say that in the rules of War Robots? I'm not picking on you, I'm serious. There are competitive bots in every class. As there should be. Well, truly, there's no War Robots rules in general. However, it's not written anywhere in the rules of war that a jeep shouldn't be better than a tank or that a destroyer shouldn't be better than a battleship (pre 1950, not counting carriers and planes), or a gun than a rpg... yet that tends to be the actual rule on the ground and when the opposite happens, it tends to be under exceptional circumstances or with heavy tradeoffs (the sniper gun is better than an RPG when resources invested in training skyrocket, mobility goes to zero and rate of fire drops dramatically, for instance). Usually, speed, heavy armor and heavy armaments don't go together well, you usually have to sacrifice 2 to maximize 1 and that's a rule generally followed in the game as well. The Gareth, on the other hand, has the second best speed in the game, armor and in general survivability that is better than all lights and, arguably, mediums and several heavies and and not to shabby of an armament as well. |
|
[AurL] Valiant
Destrier
Posts: 101
Karma: 53
Pilot name: ValiantSr
Platform: Android
Clan: Aurora Luvenis
League: Diamond
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Griffin
|
Post by [AurL] Valiant on Mar 15, 2017 10:41:51 GMT -5
Great topic carnage. So the take away here for me is that you feel at top tier everything should be a heavy mech and you should work your way up to heavies and as such the top tier. Might I suggest a different view for consideration create an entry level bot for each level create a top tier or two bots for each level and then the bots in the middle should be geared to various niches. Now the top tier light bot should have a huge speed advantage over any heavy or maybe a fun ability (dash bot/stalker), the top medium should be faster then the heavies, slower then the light and carrier an hp and dps potential in the middle and the heavy should be a lumbering hulk with higher hp and dps potential (yeah I know stating the obvious). If done right this generates a mix of bots at all levels providing your diversity. Don't get me wrong I'm fairly new (to this game) but the current cost system and line up seems to do what you are advocating and a quick check of the top leagues confirms this in the presence of nearly all heavies - though I believe the new bot from the test server is an attempt to move in a more diverse direction. I don't think the light, medium, heavy is the linear progression best suited to a mech game, as that is just dps based, but rather a progression in each category allowing a top tier player to run lights or mediums is ideal. (Maybe the point of the stalker and dash bot?)
As to your point on cost I do agree with most of your cost adjustments but with the above said - agree drop the cost of Gep and allow leveling to increase speed making him more mid tier viable? On Gary I wouldn't nerf him but rather see what would make him work in upper mid tier (possible buff) and raise his cost with the goal of making the stalker a top tier viable bot (I don't play there yet so don't know what that would take). If we applied this system to all the other classes of bots then these four in medium need a little work to create steps and incentives Rogatka (ok Rog could use a good bit of work), Carnage, Fujin, Galahad. Which bots should be top category material and what should their cost be I don't know. With the devs saying they are trying to make the league scoring more balanced and not just dps based a lot of these cost adjustments make since and some move to a more mixed field may occur even without cost changes.
Of course all this is subjective and completely dependent on the type of weapon builds the units lend themselves to. Maybe I am completely off base (only had one cup of coffee this morning) ultimately I'm glad it's not my job to balance a game like this. But as I said above some cost adjustments seem to make since currently or maybe an adjustment in the rewards system or both.
|
|
a203
Destrier
Posts: 30
Karma: 4
Platform: Android
Clan: GunnerXXX
League: Silver
Server Region: Asia
Favorite robot: Galahad
|
Post by a203 on Mar 15, 2017 10:45:36 GMT -5
Looks like someone has a hangar full of bots from old metas (gepard, rogatka) and is trying to drum up support for buffs under the guise of pricing discussion, along with nerfs to the platforms he can't handle (britbots, and admittedly that's based on comments seen in other threads). If you're asking for buffs and nerfs to shift game balance in your favor, please just admit it up front and don't try to sneak it in under the cover of discussing entry costs - which are minimal in the grand scheme of hangar cost (i.e. upgrades). Yes, I'm a cynic... but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
I don't know if it's cynic, but lame and wrong, yes it is.
I think it would be nice if we could leave the "you want this because of this" and other knee-jerk "you don't know how to manage it so you want to nerf" out of here. This is ridiculous. I am in diamond now with a much lower hangar than people around, so I guess I know how to play the game at a very solid level. I have enough gold to buy a Gareth right now, and I could buy an army of Griffins. But that's not the point... at all.
The point is that there are significant unbalances in characteristics, or at the very least mismatched values. I see two gold light bots sold at the same price with completely different levels. I see a medium (Rogatka) which is not used anymore. I see avalanches of Griffins everywhere including in TT, while the bot is a silver robot sold at the same price as a Leo or a Natasha. I could go on. I think starting from there, it can be a very relevant topic of discussion to discuss the value of the bots, if OF COURSE, everybody act as an adult and drop the cheapshots. Which is not a given on internet, sure.
The main reason as to why the griff os so popular in the first place is slot type, slot number and bot cost. The griff is basically a faster rhino with assult mode being replaced by the jump. The cost is relatively cheap for a heavy and the slot type allows for much versatility as seen with the different set-ups like the RDB, DB, PDB, troll, orkan-aphid, taran-aphid, tulumbas-piniata(what i like to call the silver DB).The jump ability also allowed the griff to cover huge distances in the past where bot speeds were half of what they are now qith the natty having a single digit km/h speed rating when purchased. The reasons above are what allowed the griff to stay strong as a beginner's heavy and one that stayed relavent even in the higher tiers/leagues due to versitility and cost(which is really cheap) |
|
|
|
Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 10:45:57 GMT -5
There are Plenty of instances where the "BEST BOT EVAH!" was eclipsed by a new bot. The Gary > Gep thing is not the first time. It's what games do to keep content coming, money flowing, and the game feeling fresh. It's not always loved, but it is what is done. The Rhino changed the entire game when it came out. The Rog and the Gep were pure terrors for a while. The Spiders didnt do too much at the time... but are now gaining prominence... a little. The Britbots were a step up, no doubt, but they still can be beaten. The WWBs aren't the best in the world, but provide variety. The Dash bots could very possibly skew the field even further, and Gary will not be the best "class doesn't matter" bot, anymore. Nerfing is not the answer unless there is NO WAY to counter it. As it is, Gary and Gala are very counterable. I'm both a pilot of those bots, and a killer of those bots. It's not some unreachable goal. I can kill both in a Thunder/Ork Boa, for instance. You just have to play their game, better than they do. Also, I keep seeing people refer to the classes in a way that says that one should trump another. Why? Who says that should be the case? Heavies aren't automatically supposed to be better than all mediums and lights. They are DIFFERENT, but not meant to be the best... each class has bots that rock in higher tiers and bots that suck in higher tiers. It is more a preference thing. There are plenty of real world instances to the contrary in the modern military world. A small Aegis missile boat destroyer, for instance, could decimate a navy from 3-4 decades ago, single-handedly. As new tech emerges, old things become obsolete. The game is obviously heading down that road. Thing is, you can still make the old stuff work... it just isn't the top dog anymore. JMO YMMV. Very well written response. You summed up why I called the "it's a light bot" argument stupid. There is no reason that all light bots and medium bots should be inherently obsolete, just because they aren't heavy bots. I've never understood this whole "mine's bigger so it should be better" mentality. Yours is bigger, so it's different. You can get away with more head on engagements. In my light bot, I have to play more strategically to get my little bugger to last longer. And I have less firepower than you. If and when I beat your heavy bot with my Gareth, it's because I played the situation better than you did, not because my bot was OP.Honestly the bolded is just not true, and BTW, it is in direct contradiction with the thread in which you talk about how great the Gareth is.
In 1/1 confrontations, the Gareth is a killer. I see no medium able to compare (except Galahad), and with heavies, a pure 1/1 situation is a VERY dangerous situation in which the heavy is certainly not the favourite to come on top. The Gareth can dodge missiles because of the speed and is basically immune to plasma because of the shield, so the only way a heavy can come out of here victorious is if he played the situation better than the Gareth. True 1/1, I'd take a Gareth even before a WSP heavy like the Rhino. Much faster, much more flexible and even better firepower when shielded.
Anyway the goal is not to have another thread about the Gareth. It is a fact its abilities far exceed its class, some will like that fact, some will find it lame, but what cannot be denied is that if you would want fair values between Gepard and Gareth for instance, then we certainly would have to change something at one point.
Or the point is just to kill the Gepard. But the original idea of the thread is exactly to do the opposite and give a fair ground and value for each robot.
|
|
|
|
Post by petevb on Mar 15, 2017 10:47:49 GMT -5
The underlying assumption (and the reason stated for nerfing the Gary) is that light bots should not be able to compete with heavies. I strongly disagree.
Virtually all the heavies got a speed buff last year. Before that mediums (Rogs, Boas) and even occasionally lights (Stalkers) could compete in upper tiers due to their extra mobility. After the speed buff that diversity largely disappeared. The Gareth restores that balance- it has enough additional mobility to largely compensate for its lack of firepower and speed, and this makes it a viable option in top. That in turn adds another dimension to the game: you can viably use maneuver to win over brute force. That extra dimension alone makes it worth making lights competitive with heavies, but there's another reason not to nerf it. Speed makes for fun gameplay, and if anything we need more of it in top.
Pix is going to continue to introduce new, better bots while letting old ones wither. It creates "churn" which helps keep things interesting and helps their bottom line. I'd consider removing the expectation that light bots should be inferior by either making certain lights weak at lower levels but stronger as you move up (so a new bot doesn't making everything else obsolete at all levels) and/ or charging by its effectiveness rather than its weight class. Long term that would create a problem as the pecking order moves around, but currently the Gareth would be roughly the 5th or 6th most expensive bot in the game...
|
|
|
|
Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Mar 15, 2017 10:47:51 GMT -5
You're running multiple Gareths in your hangar then, right? in fact, I don't, which makes me an observer a tad more objective than someone with a conflict of interest in the discussion like one who has one or more of them, like you seem to be. Are you finished with the ad hominem? |
|
![AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] Avatar](http://storage.proboards.com/6607038/avatar/qqeAJ4RKEanLTDewVuIX.jpg)
![[AurL] Valiant Avatar](http://storage.proboards.com/6607038/avatar/hQQFh0wnJqptfNKXjSXG.jpg)
