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Post by [AurN]Zenotaph on Mar 15, 2017 12:27:50 GMT -5
Try a clan...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 12:32:08 GMT -5
They have Trebuchet Furies too. Got a guy who has 2 Furies.
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Post by [AurN]Zenotaph on Mar 15, 2017 12:34:34 GMT -5
Lucky me. I got a clan with mostly close combat fighters...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 12:35:36 GMT -5
Lucky me. I got a clan with mostly close combat fighters... Lucky you. Most of the guys in mine play 2 midrangers.
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Post by cakeordeath on Mar 15, 2017 12:38:11 GMT -5
I'm honestly not sure that rebalancing bot prices, especially with such large stocks of existing bots in hangars will do anything meaningful beyond making it harder for new players to compete (esp. turning the Griffin into a gold bot - existing players have a fleet of them). A few bots do need a little love to make them competitive (gepard, rogatka and raijin come to mind).
With regards to the gareth, I own one. It is a good bot. I used to run it regularly but it gave way to my spare galahad. Yes, it is an excellent 1vs1 dogfighter and I can take heavies out with it if the circumstances are favorable (pick and choose your battles).
Thing is, this isn't a 1vs1 game. Battles regularly involve multiple bots and players know to flank shield bots. When things go south on a Gary, they often go south really fast. It's a wonderful capper and harasser but its really quite fragile to any attack that gets around that shield.
I don't care for a meta that has no place for faster, more agile bots so I like the presence of the gareth and stalker. Both bots tend to fade from view as you go up the tiers so I find the notion that any light is OP dubious. Given that weapon damage scales up faster than armor/shield hp, the Gary probably just gets too brittle for most at the top tier.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Mar 15, 2017 12:43:24 GMT -5
Yet, what is a Tank Driver's biggest fear in an all ground engagement, other than another tank? That one team of grunts that have guided anti-tank weapons (AT4 with a HEAT round would work), a good ambush spot, and a covered egress route, stands out in my mind. Heck, even a Humvee with a HEAT launcher will mess up a tank... smaller, faster, less armored, and armed, but can negate a tank if used well. These are not "exceptional circumstances", just using the weapons that you have in a way that benefits you, and not the enemy. If either of those examples I mentioned are engaged before they get prepared to face a tank, they will die. Same with a Gary. Or a Stalker... which, btw, has been doing what Gary does for longer... no it doesn't have a shield, but that stealth, a cover filled map, and a good pilot can ruin a Red team's day, almost single handedly. Go back to my above post... one Destroyer can decimate whole Navies now... even some modern ones can't hold up to the tech that the Aegis and newer boats can field. Down to the Infantry stage... an easy example... Automatic weapons are scary, yet the common infantry tactic of well aimed shots wins the day in most firefights. Especially in combination with the big automatic weapons providing less accurate but suppressive fire... A semi auto M4 can take out several people in 10 seconds, while a spray and pray SAW gunner can fire off a whole drum and not hit a thing. He might keep heads down... but unless he slows down, and fires in short, controlled, bursts, he will just be scaring the enemy. Or Hell, take the 21 foot rule that is very commonly referred to in Self Defense circles. While there are definite counters to it... and exceptions, at 21 ft or less, a person with a knife will beat a person with an undrawn pistol. Circumstances may not be the most favorable for the best weapons or weapon systems, every time. I am not trying to be argumentative just to do it... but to get my point across that it is not so cut and dried. You actually confirm my point, mostly, in particular: "it tends to be under exceptional circumstances or with heavy tradeoffs (the sniper gun is better than an RPG when resources invested in training skyrocket, mobility goes to zero and rate of fire drops dramatically, for instance)." Ambush is a pretty clear instance of exceptional circumstances. You need terrain, surprise, an unprepared enemy, possibly weather conditions. luck and bravery. So exceptional that successful ambushes are often the stuff of legend. The Humvee sacrifices armor for speed (tradeoff). The example of infantry is not really relevant, as, ported to War Robots, is essentially a case of same bot, different weapons loadout (let's say, destrier with punisher against destrier with molots). A more relevant example would be infantry against tank. Yes, the infantry will win sometimes, if it has terrain, surprise and luck but generally, one to one, I'd rather be in the tank than in the open levelled field with an RPG, won't you? No, a SAW gunner and a rifleman are better compared with a reference of different frames. A SAW gunner is going to be slower. Just from the weight of the extra Ammo (if he doesn't have an A-gunner, but you get the point... I hope...) alone, not to mention the extra weight of the weapon itself. Those few pounds do make a lot of difference. But the main point is that most people associate the automatic rifle as being more powerful, and it is. But that does not mean that a semi-auto can't out perform it. Same with the Tank vs Infantry. Or, better yet, take Jet fighters. For the longest time, the dogfight king was the F16... the smallest and most maneuverable plane of its day. It was not the fastest, nor the most heavily armed. But it could beat just about anything else in a 1v1. Tech, for the most part, is what overcomes it. At the moment, the Gary is a dog-fighter. There are only a few bots that can hang with it. But it can't take a hit, and it can't beat everything. While it may be super duper awesome now... Wait till these Dash Bots hit. Especially the Mk1 if it stays in its current config. The Dash and it's speed are enough to guarantee "OP! Its OP! NEEEEERRRRFFFF IT!" cries from everyone who won't take the time to learn how to deal with it. And it will be a counter to the Gary, as well. But it will have a weakness or two, Plasma being a big one. Anyway... I think this horse is dead enough. I'll stop beating it... for now. Andunedhel, you go ahead and get the last word in. Also... One more time, for posterity's sake... @op, the value of the Bots, as-is, might could use a tweak... I will happily give you that... like maybe the Gary go up 250 Au, Gala 500 Au, but no more. Rog deffo should either be Ag or given a comparable buff to bring it, if not on par with the Gala, then close. But the Griff, in no way, should be made Au. That is the second worst idea I've heard here in these forums, yet... right behind not giving a bonus to the Medal of Capture winners from that thread a few months ago. And my, admittedly worthless, opinion, is that there does not need to be one single additional nerf to the game as-is. One or two might need a buff... but no new nerfs. #STOPTHENERFHAMMER YMMV.
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Mar 15, 2017 13:00:01 GMT -5
Anyway... I think this horse is dead enough. I'll stop beating it... for now. Andunedhel, you go ahead and get the last word in. It seems to me you are adding more power-speed tradeoff examples, but anyway, I'm not so much interested in having the last word on the Gary issue. Just sad that no one said a word about the attempt of having an objective grading system, based on something tangible, that I put forward, which would had been in the actual topic of the thread tho :/ Oh well, flames beat excells, I guess.
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Post by mijapi300 on Mar 15, 2017 13:35:43 GMT -5
Anyway, since the topic was "true value of teh bots" before devolving, let's try an objective system for power ranking, shall we? Let's say a point system. I propose a simple speed*maximum health*cycle damage (as per wiki) of standardized weapons . (Happy to hear other suggestions). For maximum health I'll go for maximum frontal health, so health+shields. counting energy shield at 50% for simplicity and adding a 10% to dashing, jumping and cloacking bots. I'll take Destrier, Gepard, Stalker, Gareth, Boa, Golem, Carnage, Galahad, Griffin Fury Lancelot. As weapons. level 12 pins for light, orkan for medium and Thunder for heavy (to keep everything in short range). It's crude, but just to give an idea. Again, happy to hear suggestions for other metrics. Results are Destrier: 87(k)*55*(2*22832) Gepard: 87*58*(3*22832) Stalker: 90*66*(2*22832)*1,1 Gareth: (80+160)*64*(22832+45664) Boa: 185*42*(45664+20550) Golem: 132*44*(22832+45664+81520) Carnage: (114+34)*46(avg)*(2*20550) Galahad: (120+199)*50*((2*22832)+45664) Griffin: 158*35*((2*22832)+(2*45664))*1.1 Fury: 158*30*(3*81520) Lancelot: (170+360)*36(avg)*((2*45664)+81520) Ancilot: (170+360+47,5)*36(avg)*(2*45664) Which gives (/1000) Destrier 109,251 Gepard 345,630 Stalker 298,368 Gareth 1,052,098 Boa 514,482 Golem 211,222 Carnage 279,808 Galahad 1,456,681 Griffin 833,322 Fury 1,159,214 Lancelot 3,297,939 Ancilot 1,898,709 Notice any odd one out there? I am at work, so I didn't read this until now. I apologize if you felt I was simply engaging in a flame war, but it is much easier to keep up with notifications than it is to keep up with every post when I'm busy with something else. I think this is a good idea, although (and I think you'd agree), it needs to be far more complex than it is to be truly useful. Perhaps a good starting point would be using the "normal" loadouts for each bot. That becomes difficult for some obsolete bots because not enough people use them to really know what's "normal". But I think using actual metrics somehow to figure out what the most popular setups on each bot would be is a great way to get actual power values. From there, I think using a weighting system for the different inputs. Ancile health needs a premium since it regenerates, and then a discount because it doesn't block plasma. Physical shield health would need a discount because it doesn't block splash, and it also doesn't count if you don't block correctly(while you don't have to "aim" an ancile to block damage). Speed doesn't translate into damage, so there would need to be some sort of algorithm to find the true value of speed as it relates to gameplay. (Are we including beacon capturing ability in the power rating, since the current game rankings place a value of 0.00 on beacons?) For the purposes of forum discussion and just plain curiousity and interest, I think this would be an excellent project. As far as it being used or useful to Pixonic, I'm not so sure. They're a business, so their main objective is revenue and profitability. They're far better off just introducing new gold bots than they are spending time "fixing" all the current bots.
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Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 14:58:15 GMT -5
Look, I'm in my car now and will not enter a flame war with you. You've quoted me twice, first with no content beyond an ad hominem attack and second with little more content than mistakes I will proceed to debunk below. Any flaming has been one-way on your part; I merely continue to rebut what little content you brought in response to my comments. I have no desire to flame you whatsoever but do appreciate the opportunity to articulate the reasons I disagree with you. I even promise not to take cheapshots calling you lazy, lame, or acting unadult and will demonstrate how to disagree civilly. Does that sound fair? You really are the kind of guy who always wants to have the last word don't you.
Let's make it simple for you to understand :
* I have absolutely no problem to admit I find Gareth OP. No need to search back past quotes from me, I absolutely don't hide anything here. I think Gareth is OP, Galahad also but to a lesser extend and I am certainly not the only one with this opinion. Now for sure if the only thing you have to say is to question the ability of the person who has this opinion, and making assumptions about my hangar which happen to be totally wrong, so be it, but that will not bring the discussion very far, that's for sure.
* If you'd read the original message instead of being blinded by your own "cynicism", to take your own words, you'd already have seen the answer to your question a long time ago. The point of the thread is mainly to discuss values of the bots. If that means in some occasion a buff or a nerf in extreme cases to bring back fairness between bots (for them to match their value), then fine, I'm all for it. But the original message is certainly not limited to the Gareth or any other bot, the point was to have an overall view on the situation and try discussing those unbalances. A Gareth and a Gepard at the same price, say what you want, but it DOESN'T make sense. The point of this thread is to discuss exactly those cases and I think you're really the only guy around who still didn't understand it at this point.
Now if we can leave it here... I would be thankful. It is easy to see discussing with you will lead nowhere, so I would really prefer to concentrate on people who actually have something of value to say in this thread. Thanks.
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Post by mijapi300 on Mar 15, 2017 15:18:28 GMT -5
carnage You are saying "yes" and "no" at the same time, which is why I think he keeps asking. "I want to value the bots first and foremost, but if that leads to nerfing some bots and buffing others, then I'm all for it." That's kinda like Trump saying "not all Mexicans are bad, but I want to build a wall around Mexico", to be extreme. I don't agree with your comment about the Gareth being OP as the opinion of many. It's a strong bot, yes. In the hands of the most skilled pilots(including the right style of play), it can be deadly to most other bots on the field. The same can be said about Griffins, Carnages, Rhinos, Lancelots, Fury, and many more. An overpowered bot, by definition, isn't as hard to be successful with as a Gareth is. Back to the main point, is the intended purpose of this thread just for intrigue and discussion, or are you actually suggesting they change bot prices?
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Post by Nitro on Mar 15, 2017 15:18:57 GMT -5
Noooo not my little Garry... qnq He's the only good bot I have, my plasma Griff doesn't even survive as long as he does I swear whenever I buy something premium they instantly want it nerfed XD
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Post by mijapi300 on Mar 15, 2017 15:21:39 GMT -5
Noooo not my little Garry... qnq He's the only good bot I have, my plasma Griff doesn't even survive as long as he does I swear whenever I buy something premium they instantly want it nerfed XD People generally want something nerfed for two reasons. They can't figure out how to counter it. Or, they figured out how to counter it and that counter doesn't fit into their number one preferred style of playing. People also throw the term "nerf" around very lightly, seemingly not understanding that nerfs more often than not entirely ruin the whole game.
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Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 15:39:11 GMT -5
carnage You are saying "yes" and "no" at the same time, which is why I think he keeps asking. "I want to value the bots first and foremost, but if that leads to nerfing some bots and buffing others, then I'm all for it." That's kinda like Trump saying "not all Mexicans are bad, but I want to build a wall around Mexico", to be extreme. I don't agree with your comment about the Gareth being OP as the opinion of many. It's a strong bot, yes. In the hands of the most skilled pilots(including the right style of play), it can be deadly to most other bots on the field. The same can be said about Griffins, Carnages, Rhinos, Lancelots, Fury, and many more. An overpowered bot, by definition, isn't as hard to be successful with as a Gareth is. Back to the main point, is the intended purpose of this thread just for intrigue and discussion, or are you actually suggesting they change bot prices? Well read the original message. I did some suggestions, and I focus on values, except very particular cases of the britbots and the Rogatka. The reasons are obvious, in the case of the britbots they far exceed their current class and price, and in the case of the Rogatka, it is the opposite. Those situations can legitimately raise a question of ability but those are exceptions, not the rule.
As for your last question, I created this thread for the sake of the discussion of course. I perfectly know it would be tricky to change values now and I already said it earlier in the thread. It's more of a "in an ideal world of fairness, what should be the value of robots" or whatever along those lines. I think we can all agree that values don't always reflect abilities and I could give plenty of examples. The point of the thread is to discuss those. Of course, value being linked to abilities, the question of ability can be raised sometime but then again it is really not the main purpose of the thread.
I think if we put aside the "you say it is OP because you're not good facing it" or other "your hangar is full of... and that's why" kind of crap, there is actually a very legit and interesting discussion to be have.
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Post by mijapi300 on Mar 15, 2017 15:53:17 GMT -5
carnage You are saying "yes" and "no" at the same time, which is why I think he keeps asking. "I want to value the bots first and foremost, but if that leads to nerfing some bots and buffing others, then I'm all for it." That's kinda like Trump saying "not all Mexicans are bad, but I want to build a wall around Mexico", to be extreme. I don't agree with your comment about the Gareth being OP as the opinion of many. It's a strong bot, yes. In the hands of the most skilled pilots(including the right style of play), it can be deadly to most other bots on the field. The same can be said about Griffins, Carnages, Rhinos, Lancelots, Fury, and many more. An overpowered bot, by definition, isn't as hard to be successful with as a Gareth is. Back to the main point, is the intended purpose of this thread just for intrigue and discussion, or are you actually suggesting they change bot prices? Well read the original message. I did some suggestions, and I focus on values, except very particular cases of the britbots and the Rogatka. The reasons are obvious, in the case of the britbots they far exceed their current class and price, and in the case of the Rogatka, it is the opposite. That can legitimately raise a question of ability in those particular cases, but those are exceptions, not the rule.
As for your last question, I created this thread for the sake of the discussion of course. I perfectly know it would be tricky to change values now and I already said it earlier in the thread. It's more of a "in an ideal world of fairness, what should be the value of robots" or whatever along those lines. Of course, value is linked to abilities, so the question of ability can be raised sometime. But then again, it is really not the main purpose of the thread.
I think if we put aside the "you say it is OP because you're not good facing it" or other "your hangar is full of... and that's why" kind of crap, there is actually a very legit and interesting discussion to be have.
Putting those things aside, you must also put aside the dumbfounded argument of "it exceeds its current class". The argument that light bots should stand no chance against heavy bots is idiotic. Why are light bots in the game, then? What's the point of having 2/3 of the bots in the game being useless? You're suggesting nerfing a bot that doesn't even compete against skilled pilots in heavy bots unless you're extremely skilled at using it. In the overall scheme of the game, the Gareth is completely uncompetitive in the top tiers against heavy bots. And your only argument, literally, is that it's better than the other light bots. The answer is not to nerf every useful bot down to the same level of the obsolete ones. The answer is to adjust the obsolete ones so that they are useful again. The only argument that has merit is that the Gareth is priced at a bargain (comparatively). So you want to ensure that Pixonic provides nothing at a bargain. Not really my cup of tea, I like bargain items. The fact of the matter is, if the Gareth was OP, everyone would be using multiple. A huge portion of the game had five Gepards when they were overpowered. Nobody(that I've seen) has more than two Gareths, in any tier at all. You're arguing something with absolutely no basis for your argument. And in an online forum setting, those types of things get a lot of backlash(see: Gareth is the best bot in the game).
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Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 16:11:02 GMT -5
Fair enough, I know it is a sensitive topic.
The question of lights ability vs heavies is a very legit question, I have no problem with that. I personally think lights should totally have a place in the game, but it works as long as each category stays "king" in their field. Light should be faster, heavies should be slower but with a stronger fighting ability, and medium should sit in the middle. I don't say I have the truth and that other opinions should not matter, I am just sharing MY vision of a balanced game (and it is a logic that you can find in all fighting games, BTW).
In the case of the Gareth, it doesn't respect those rules. It is faster, but it is also easily stronger while fighting than all medium (except Galahad) and a good bunch of heavies because of the shield. This is where it doesn't really make sense anymore, because you have a light being not only faster, but being also stronger than a medium or a heavy on its own field. This is where you can have a legit question of unbalance and this is why I (and some others) describe the Gareth as OP.
The same apply to the Galahad but to a lesser extend. Pix decided to create some uber-robots to sell them, it's as simple as that.
All that said and at the risk of repeating myself, the point of the thread is to discuss values as a whole, not to stay specific to one robot.
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gamingbulldog
Destrier
Posts: 27
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League: Gold
Favorite robot: PLASMAHAD
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Post by gamingbulldog on Mar 15, 2017 16:23:05 GMT -5
I never truly understand why you hate the griffin so much XD,fixed it for you BTW. I actually like it
I just think it is superior to its two direct comparable which are the Leo and the Natasha.
It's fine to keep it as it is, but it would make so much more sense to have it a gold robot. Basically a heavier Rogatka. It would also be more coherent in the sense that to me, any robot you should find in TT should be gold robots. It's really weird to see a silver robot actually rated so high right now.
JMO of course.
I disagree. Should it cost more? Absolutely. But, you are making it cost the same as a Galahad which will beat a Griffin every time and in (in most cases) the better choice by far. Also, changing prices is dangerous for the game. Some players will be spending lots of time and effort building up a specific currency and then have the cost changed. It is unfair to them because everyone who joined the game earlier was able to get the robot for much much less. In the case of Griffin, it basically costs 850gold now (if you exchange which no one does). You are then making it more than 3x as expensive.
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Post by Conflict's Student on Mar 15, 2017 16:48:43 GMT -5
Now that we've determined the underlying purpose of the OP, which is a thinly-disguised appeal for nerfs and buffs using entry cost as a proxy, we can get down to discussing the pertinent points which seem to be (a) is gareth OP; (b) is gepard UP; (c) is galahad OP; (d) is rogatka UP; and (e) is griffin OP. To which I respond no, maybe slightly but then again maybe it ought to be for a while longer, no, probably yes, and no.
Gareth isn't OP compared to its partner in premium light-bot crime, the stalker. I see at least as many stalkers as gareths in the lower league hangars (silver/gold) and approximately the same number (zero) in the higher league hangars (diamond/expert) that I've run into. Stalker is available for WSP, which is essentially Ag plus time. No, you don't see pure Ag light bots in Silver or higher league hangars - and that's almost certainly what the designers intend. They want to entice people to grind into more expensive bots over time. Stalker is a fair comparison for Gareth and I see no clear advantage. As for Gepard, see the next paragraph.
Gepard had its day in the sun for the better part of the past year and people still play them today, although perhaps not as often as the other two premium light bots. Is it really so awful that other two bots spend a month or two being played more? If the meta shifts in another 6 months or so, gepard will still have held an overwhelming advantage in relative value over time (again remembering the point in time when many people ran 5-gep hangars and yet essentially no one has ever run 5-stalker or 5-gareth hangars for any significant period of time). I still see a number of geps running as aphid boats in lower- to mid-level leagues. Keep in mind, 50% more firepower than a stalker (or roughly 20% more than a gareth) is nothing to sneeze at. The days of pairing medium bot health with elite speed and firepower (protected by the old MM) are never coming back for wistful Gepard owners but it still carries some value as a light robot. If I owned all three premium lights and had to run a light bot kill/damage mission, I'd probably pick Gepard over Stalker and might even take one over a Gareth (or take some of each tbh, so I could adapt to whatever setups I was facing).
Galahad gets a fair amount of play at all levels once it becomes available, but only in the sense that Rock gets a fair amount of play in Rock-Paper-Scissors. It's certainly not OP: it doesn't have much firepower and it's easily destroyed with splash. Sure, it has fair speed and is a nice counter to plasma - but falls easily to team play or rocket griffins while being a roughly even match to a thunder carnage or DB rhino depending on the environment. Very few people run more than 2 Galahads, although 1 is fairly common - probably because it makes such a tidy counter to PDB Griffins.
Rogatka? Sure. I've played against Rogatkas about 10 times, ever. I've pointed out elsewhere how they can be made more attractive without a straight-up buff, however. It doesn't take much to take something with 2 mediums (serious firepower potential inside 350m) and good agility and speed (also important in close) from underpowered to overpowered with just a small tweak to basic attributes. Instead, I'd recommend an adjustment like making it jump farther per jump, with more recharge time between jumps, so that it makes essentially the same 'speed over ground' in the long run but can move more aggressively in a firefight - at the expense of being a juicier target when it does. Or make some other adjustment to the jump mechanic, which is most of what makes jump bots interesting in the first place. In other words, I don't endorse a direct buff but would be interested in seeing rogatka differentiate itself from griffin more than just giving up some health and two light hardpoints. Frankly, if the proposed Dash Bot had only 2 medium hardpoints and no ancile, I think it might be what rogatka should be (instead of being an entirely new bot).
Griffin? It's popular because it's available early and people start upgrading them long before they can afford premium bots like Fury (which directly replaces Natasha) or Lancelot (which essentially replaces Leo). At lower levels you see all three Ag heavies in roughly similar numbers. If there were a premium heavy jump bot (like maybe the upcoming Dash Bot???) then you would see Griffins go the way of the dodo/Leo/Natasha, which is to say that they too would move aside for better options as they become available. But since there is (yet) no premium heavy jump bot, you still see them around as a popular holdover from early hangar development. Maybe the most recent form of Dash Bot (in 3 mediums and ancile format) is Pix's intended premium replacement for Griffin.
Bottom line: I find none of the buffs or nerfs you suggest to be appropriate or necessary, although I agree something could be done to make Rogatka more interesting (while remaining neutral in its overall effectiveness). I find it odd that you didn't mention the single most-requested nerf I've noticed, which is to Trident. I'll include that here, however, to wrap up the discussion: I think the TT Fury setup actually is slightly OP because the splash radius for Tridents is so large. I would prefer to see all splash damage drop off with distance from explosion center, although if that requires too much bandwidth then I could see a slight (maybe 3-5m) reduction in Trident splash radius working.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 16:54:53 GMT -5
I generally like how everything is now. Some bots are destined to be beginner bots and teach new players how to play.
You can translate the Destrier to the Stalker, the Cossack teaches you how to use the jump ability. As you move up the levels these former bots are unfortunately throw away.
The Gephard becomes available some where below level 12 or there about, it teaches you about speed. See Gareth and Galahad, also add in Stalker.
The Rogatka is an intermediate bot that further enhances your ability to use the jump feature. Cool-down between jumps appears. Do I really want to jump now? Or can I sneak up unload and jump from harm?
You can actually bypass both the Gep and Rog, They are basically, Oh I saw it on the battlefield, I want one purchase. As are several weapons we all find ourselves with and never use, because they don't fit our strategies or style of play. And for people that don't have enough gold, but hard cash without the patience to wait, are a sure income for Pix.
We can all tell the people without patience and more money than sense, by their hangars. 450 wins, 5 slot hangars, gold only bots some level 12 bots and weapons. Paying cash, to buy gold, so they can buy silver to do upgrades, then spend gold to speed upgrades. Repeated multiple times. They missed the enjoyment of doing it gradually working for it.
As for the bots that might be considered top tier, they are in fact tough and powerful. That is what you need, when you get there. And hopefully, you have taken the lessons from your early days, learned from them, see the similarities and be ready to go for the top. If a Fury is nailing you, use a different tactic to survive.
There is no reason you can not run any bot at any time and use it. Stalkers, Rogatka and even a Gep can be used if piloted by the right person in the upper levels. As can a Cossacks if that is your fancy. Just don't expect them to hold up too long. Heck I still bring em' out, even my Boa's, but I play them much differently than in the days of old when I first got them. My Vityaz and Golem, both level 12 also see action occasionally. Can't forget the bots that carried me up.
I will be honest, I dislike the word "nerf" a great deal. If anything, everything in this game should be buffed by 10% or more.
Old man
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Post by mijapi300 on Mar 15, 2017 16:58:56 GMT -5
Fair enough, I know it is a sensitive topic.
The question of lights ability vs heavies is a very legit question, I have no problem with that. I personally think lights should totally have a place in the game, but it works as long as each category stays "king" in their field. Light should be faster, heavies should be slower but with a stronger fighting ability, and medium should sit in the middle. I don't say I have the truth and that other opinions should not matter, I am just sharing MY vision of a balanced game (and it is a logic that you can find in all fighting games, BTW).
In the case of the Gareth, it doesn't respect those rules. It is faster, but it is also easily stronger while fighting than all medium (except Galahad) and a good bunch of heavies because of the shield. This is where it doesn't really make sense anymore, because you have a light being not only faster, but being also stronger than a medium or a heavy on its own field. This is where you can have a legit question of unbalance and this is why I (and some others) describe the Gareth as OP.
The same apply to the Galahad but to a lesser extend. Pix decided to create some uber-robots to sell them, it's as simple as that.
All that said and at the risk of repeating myself, the point of the thread is to discuss values as a whole, not to stay specific to one robot. You are the one that originally claimed the Gareth specifically is OP, and as long as you stick by that statement, the discussion will continue. Don't use the fact that the original point of the thread wasn't about a specific bot, when you're the one that derailed it in the first place. You don't get to use that as a way to make a statement and then tell everyone they aren't allowed to voice their disagreement. For one, the shield has to be used correctly for it to be useful at all. And against splash bots, such as the death Button Griffin, the Gareth effectively has no shield. If you choose not to have a death button in your hangar, you don't get to then complain about the Gareth being OP, because you voluntarily ignored the counter to it. If you have a death button, then again, I'm not sure what your issue is. Heavy bots are better at knife fighting. There is no reasonable argument against that. They have more health, many have shields, and much more firepower. Most of the mediums also have more health and more firepower. If what you're arguing for is that a heavy bot with a huge target area should just be able to sit there and press the red button, then again, I don't understand your viewpoint. If you play stupid, whether you're in a heavy, medium, or light, I will tear you a new one with my Gareth. On the contrary, if you're playing smart in a RDB Griffin, my Gareth has no chance to take you on in a fair fight. I have to catch you off guard or double team you to win. There are several bots and situations, that in a Gareth, your only option is to move on somewhere else. I've said as much, even when I claim the Gary is the best overall bot in the game. And I reflect that viewpoint in my play frequently. It seems you just have a vendetta against a light bot having a purpose in the game, which I can't wrap my head around. The other light bots need buffs so that they also have a place in the game, not the other way around. There are very few, if any, heavy bots that I can confidently just take on head on 1v1. I have to use my speed advantage to play smart. And you know what the smart thing to do in your heavy is in that case? Hide. Use cover. Wait for backup. No matter what bot you choose, you should have to play smart to excel. You don't get a pass on that just because you like heavy bots, and think they should be able to obliterate anything that isn't also heavy class, without any risk of getting killed. The bottom line is, in any bot, if you play dumb, you will die. That case is much, much great when piloting a Gareth than it is when piloting the heavy bots. You can play very smart, and just make one tiny error in a Gareth and you're dead. You can play moderately stupid, make several errors in a heavy bot, and still have health left. That's the advantage heavies have, that's the advantage they should have, and that's how the game currently is. So what exactly is the problem here?
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Mar 15, 2017 17:04:32 GMT -5
Fair enough, I know it is a sensitive topic. The question of lights ability vs heavies is a very legit question, I have no problem with that. I personally think lights should totally have a place in the game, but it works as long as each category stays "king" in their field. Light should be faster, heavies should be slower but with a stronger fighting ability, and medium should sit in the middle. I don't say I have the truth and that other opinions should not matter, I am just sharing MY vision of a balanced game (and it is a logic that you can find in all fighting games, BTW). In the case of the Gareth, it doesn't respect those rules. It is faster, but it is also easily stronger while fighting than all medium (except Galahad) and a good bunch of heavies because of the shield. This is where it doesn't really make sense anymore, because you have a light being not only faster, but being also stronger than a medium or a heavy on its own field. This is where you can have a legit question of unbalance and this is why I (and some others) describe the Gareth as OP. The same apply to the Galahad but to a lesser extend. Pix decided to create some uber-robots to sell them, it's as simple as that. the only thing I will add to that, again, is that it IS killable with almost all mediums and heavies... Splash will destroy Gary. The fact that it can back peddle only matters at certain distances and with certain players. Sure, stand in the open and it will win if it stays at 350m and you have pinatas and Orks. Granted. But, take Shenzen for example... in the buildings that force very short distance battles, a Leo Thunder Pinata, or a Thunder Ork Boa, also just for examples, can easily use the buildings to force the Gary to play their game and come in on a path that allows them to splash them to bits. Add in the Thunder... and even with the shield it will die. Both of those bots have a lot of HP. They will win if the Gary keeps fighting and the Leo and Boa pilots are true aimers. That is just one situation, there are many more. The problem that you have, from what I can tell, is with the Brit-Bot class, as a whole. What the Gary does... is exactly what the whole class was meant to do. Hold back plasma bots and snipers and cap and defend Beacons. The Gary, specifically, was also meant to fight and win against stalkers. It is a fast bot with just enough firepower (equal to the Gep, really) to do some good, and a shield to allow it to do enough to be useful before it dies. That is what makes it viable up top. It is an end game light bot, at least as much of one as Pix has made so far. The Britbots are all meant to be endgame bots, really. The old MM was proof of that since they had penalties. But, again, they ARE still killable by many bots... if attacked smartly. Unfortunately, the insanity with the new system has allowed for things that they didn't expect... like intermix beginner with endgame accounts. But if they do anything like a nerf to those bots, they will not be what they were intended to be... I'm not sure what the answer is, but nerfing won't do. Not with the current state of the game. So, like many players of many games, we adjust, adapt, and overcome. IMO, YMMV
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Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 17:13:47 GMT -5
Now that we've determined the underlying purpose of the OP, which is a thinly-disguised appeal for nerfs and buffs using entry cost as a proxy, we can get down to discussing the pertinent points which seem to be (a) is gareth OP; (b) is gepard UP; (c) is galahad OP; (d) is rogatka UP; and (e) is griffin OP. To which I respond no, maybe slightly but then again maybe it ought to be for a while longer, no, probably yes, and no. LOL how the first remark is ridiculous. You really understand what you want to understand, but let's leave it at that. Laughable really.
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Post by ChillyTempurrrrr on Mar 15, 2017 17:18:19 GMT -5
heres a good plan keep the basic medium and light silver bots the same gepard 1200>1000 give everyone who has a gepard a extra 200 gold gareth 1250>1500 no differences rogatka 2500>2000 give people who have a rogatka 500 gold galahad 2500>3000 lancelot 5000>5000 fury 5000>5000 stalker 7500>7500 carnage 13000>13000 fujin 13000>11500 give players a 1.5k wsp bonus rhino 15000>15000 raijin 15000>12500 give players a 2.5k wsp bonus leo 1.7m>3m natasha 1.7m>3m griffin 1.7m>5m done LIKELIKELIKELIKELIKELIKELIKE
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 17:22:16 GMT -5
Destrier: Underpowered Sclutze: Underpowered Cossack: Underpowered Stalker: Balanced but on the underpowered side Gareth: Balanced Jesse: Balanced but on the underpowered side Vityaz: Underpowered Golem: Underpowered Boa: Balanced Rogetha: Underpowered Carnage: Balanced Fujin: Balanaced Galahad: Balanced but on the overpowered side Doc: Balanced Griffin: Overpowered Leo: Balanced Natasha: Balanced Fury: Overpowered Rhino: Balanced Lancelot: Overpowered Raijin: Balanced but on the underpowered side Butch: Balanced
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Post by carnage on Mar 15, 2017 17:28:02 GMT -5
@chillytempurrrrr Not bad at all, it's actually not far from my initial suggestions.
Now the question is, would people still find interesting to buy a Rogatka at 2'000 gold when you can have a Gareth at 1'500 ? I'm not sure. Also I personally think Griffin should have been a gold bot... a bit similar to the Galahad. Hard to say if the community of players would value more the Griffin or the Galahad, if both had the same price. I suspect people would chose Galahad first, but I'm really not sure here.
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Post by mijapi300 on Mar 15, 2017 17:35:38 GMT -5
Destrier: Underpowered Sclutze: Underpowered Cossack: Underpowered Stalker: Balanced but on the underpowered side Gareth: Balanced Jesse: Balanced but on the underpowered side Vityaz: Underpowered Golem: Underpowered Boa: Balanced Rogetha: Underpowered Carnage: Balanced Fujin: Balanaced Galahad: Balanced but on the overpowered side Doc: Balanced Griffin: Overpowered Leo: Balanced Natasha: Balanced Fury: Overpowered Rhino: Balanced Lancelot: Overpowered Raijin: Balanced but on the underpowered side Butch: Balanced Thank you for this. This is the true state of the game. I don't necessarily agree that those three are OP, but I also don't play against maxed versions of them. The Griff would be the closest to OP, and I think that has more to do with weapons than it does the bot. Add a 350m plasma Heavy weapon, and the Griff is no longer OP. This is a great way to view the game though. Don't try to dumb everything down to the same level as the broken bots. If anything, fix the broken bots. Or just introduce new bots, like they regularly do.
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Post by petevb on Mar 15, 2017 17:35:51 GMT -5
Destrier: Underpowered Sclutze: Underpowered Cossack: Underpowered Stalker: Balanced but on the underpowered side Gareth: Balanced Jesse: Balanced but on the underpowered side Vityaz: Underpowered Golem: Underpowered Boa: Balanced Rogetha: Underpowered Carnage: Balanced Fujin: Balanaced Galahad: Balanced but on the overpowered side Doc: Balanced Griffin: Overpowered Leo: Balanced Natasha: Balanced Fury: Overpowered Rhino: Balanced Lancelot: Overpowered Raijin: Balanced but on the underpowered side Butch: Balanced Of the bots above in Top I typically commonly use: Galahad: Balanced but on the overpowered side Lancelot: Overpowered Fury: Overpowered Griffin: Overpowered And less commonly throw in: Carnage: Balanced Gareth: Balanced Doc: Balanced Leo: Balanced Butch: Balanced (would run one if I had one) IMHO I'd call all of the top group somewhat OP, all of the bottom group slightly OP except for the Leo and Butch. The Leo is probably balanced as it's only top material with Aphids, while the Butch probably needs to be considered OP in that with Trebs there is nothing that can touch it in the sniping role.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 17:49:10 GMT -5
Yep. Always mistake a Trebuchet Butch in Yamateau for a Trebuchet Carnage. That is, until I get hit by 4 yellow bolts.
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Post by dms12008 on Mar 15, 2017 17:57:11 GMT -5
I really appreciate this post so I want to point out some things to op.
1. If price exactly reflected value, then it would b pointless to buy cheaper bots. Everyone would just save up for the most expensive bots and skip the rest bc under your system, more expensive='better.' Then people would b purchasing fewer bots and that's not good for pix. I'm pretty sure the prices r scattered everywhere to keep players at every level constantly making purchases from beginning to end. Does that make sense? U also need to consider that the whole point of the gameplay design is that theoretically ever single bot and weapon has a place in a balanced hangar- let noobies in w cheaper stuff, force top level people to pay big to get the balance they need... BUT all the while, even if u r top tier, u still have to buy some of the cheaper things bc it's about balance and synergy, not just one build beats all.
Basically my response to your post is, prices aren't SUPPOSED to reflect performance per se. They are supposed to b structured in a way that u r motivated to constantly b making purchases.
Also about the griffin being a silver bot. By the end of the game u need more silver than gold to level up anyway, which is a sneaky way that they make gold seem more valuable at first so u buy that, but eventually u realize it's silver u need, so u get premium. Anywayz the point is that by making some bots silver or wsp instead of au they are making the economy more balanced in their favor in terms of supply+demand- they make money off the current balance of need for au/ag and the timing of that, like I just explained, so adding need for more gold could mess things up for them in the sense that if u need too much gold, then u r never motivated to get premium, bc no point in paying to get silver u would have made anyway in matches u were playing to try to win gold. Prices r distributed in a wild way to encourage purchases using all 3 ag,au,wsp for everything u need, and also u r encouraged to b continually making purchases as opposed to saving for and investing only in best gear.
Of course u have to assume not everyone reads the forum etc so that's how they can sell gear that isn't that great.
2. I hope u don't think I'm a 'don't touch anything' hater lol but u do actually need to take a chill pill regarding all the nerfs/buffs. The updates on weapon and bot strength is based on statistics. Not people saying 'omg that bot/weapon is annoying, therefore nerf it/I wish this bot was more useful, so it should b buffed.' If it's true that one bot or weapon is better than others, it comes out in the averages and it's simply that data that shows the need for changes.
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Post by tailwind on Mar 15, 2017 18:06:26 GMT -5
I run a 9 Gareth. With 9 Pin/10 Orkan. I'm in Diamond II. Yup, I'm fast. It's fun, right up to the point where I get broadsided with Trident.. Or a full Griffin Pin salvo. It provides balance to the snipers out there with energy weapons. Yes, I can do a lot of damage in the buildings, and hit and run, but up against well covered teams, I eventually get broadsided quite quickly if I'm not paying attention. Admittedly I can go head to head with the big boys, for a few seconds but anybody with a 9 higher plasma on full burst is going to decimate me quite quickly.
It's all a matter of perspective. I also run a 9 rampage wit 11 tridents. I make quick work of the Britbots when I get them in my sights. That is till I try breaking down amped up Galahads with ancile. Those piss me off to no end. But then those guys fall quite quickly with a little distance and a machine gun, and some teamwork.
Don't hate the little bugger because he's a piss off. Just use a little patience, and ambush him. Everything has its place. And the Gareth fits in quite well. You nerd it, and you kill the reason for having it... which is tonpiss off the big guys. 2 bots of any kind of power can get it quite easily as long as you spread out. You get a side shot on it, and HP go down fast.
I own a 8 griffin with 11 Hydra. Just swing your shots left and right. 1/2 the missiles are going to hit.
Yes the Gareth will piss you off. That's the point. But you can kill them just as easy, which as a guy that runs one,is a real piss of lol!
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Post by War Child on Mar 15, 2017 18:34:35 GMT -5
This entire thread is turning into a request to make the game "pay to win". Is that seriously what you guys want? *clap clap clap* The post that made the most sense by far in this thread
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