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Post by cookieDad on Nov 14, 2019 19:20:41 GMT -5
What's the point of a discussion, if you are not allowed to disagree with the OP? Useless thread but fun to read. Sit back, eat popcorn, and be amused.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 14, 2019 19:45:38 GMT -5
I worded it wrong man, what I mean is legacy players sit in cover more than they would if they used another more defended. My understanding in this matter is perfect and I have watched some of these videos, the reason you can play leagcy is simply because you are careful, sure you have to be very good at the skills of the bot as well but you only truly survive in champs because you are careful. No, I am not saying this to be rude or whatever, this is straight facts. Also them "knowing how to use their bot" literally means they know that their bot needs to hide more because of how squishy it is and these people know how to stay in cover so they may get kills that they wouldn't get if they weren't careful. Wow, so suddenly knowing the weaknesses of your bot and adjusting your playstyle to counter that is a sign of low skill? Legacy pilots don't go around walking in the open cause they get fried, while bots like Strider can move around in the open like an idiot cause they have an easy escape button. If legacy bots too had a dash ability that lets them off the hook whenever they make a dumb mistake you'll probably see a lot more legacy bots walking around in the open. I don't understand the pride you take in bragging about how a strider can go around walking in the open. If it takes skill to walk around in the open and having an ability that gives you an easy way out, guess Phantoms and Ares are your top skill bots. Besides, how much skill does it take for a Strider to press a button and move out of incoming fire? so many silly accusations, so little writing space, where to start? Ah, you saying that I meant adjusting playstyle is a sign of low skill shows that you can't understand basic english. I said that the reason legacy bots do well in skilled hands is because they are SKILLED at playing around their bots weakness. But the skill ceiling of the ROBOT is low because the ability doesn't allow many different uses while a dash allows millions of possibilities. I call BB to make my point. BB please explain how yoy haven't discovered every single thing you can do with strider, thanks in advance whether you do or do not. Continuing, the reason I say strider is a skill bot is because if you aren't good at keeping your dashes for bad engagments and using them (knowing how far they go, phow to control them, how get away and to enemies ect) then you wont be able to do really anything in the bot, and thise skills took me a few weeks to mostly perfect. Also, why do you hate strider so much? Comparing him to ares or phantom is a sad excuse for an arguement, ares for instance has a mediumish skill ceiling but a VERY low skill requirement because the ability is a shield with no downside like limited health. Striders ability is simply a few steps in one direction instantly. Just cool it down and think for a few seconds. Your last post jumped to lots of conclusions meaning you are not reading the post and thinking about it clearly so try to control that in your next post.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 14, 2019 19:51:50 GMT -5
no, every bot does not. Take ares for example, he requires little skill so long as you get to, and stay in, cover. Legacy are the same in skill requirements but for a different reason, they require more awareness of your surroundings. You are hot headed right now, cool off and think. All im saying is they aren't near as well protected as todays bots. The bots of today have all sorts of protection AND good firepower usually which means legacy bots, which always had one or the other because they remained balanced for their time, don't have to same advantages and in turn die easily unless you pay attention. Days of old were walk out, shoot at each other until one is dead then move on, now they require heavy mastery of your surroundings AND bots which those days didn't have near as much since the abilities were basic and only changed game play a small bit. No, you are wrong. Playing legacy successful takes far more than good situational awareness. You have to know exactly what your limits are as the bot your playing. You need to know exactly how many seconds your shields can hold out against shotguns, how fast you can traverse the open field before the enemy turns around to blast you, etc. All a strider needs to know is when to press a button and move in the direction their legs are facing. While we're talking about walking around in the open and taking heavy fire, what about a Lancelot or Rhino. Those guys don't really spend time hiding behind cover. and you are wrong, I said it in my last post, to you, the use of the dash seems easy but to use it correctly and to its greatest effect is much more skill based then you would think. The rest of what you said is part of situational awareness. Leo and rhino usually go down quickly though, rhino leaves a big scar on the field but is gone quickly without a good line up of bad enemies. Leo dies instantly whenever they come out into the open near more than 1 enemy.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 14, 2019 19:53:21 GMT -5
What's the point of a discussion, if you are not allowed to disagree with the OP? Useless thread but fun to read. Sit back, eat popcorn, and be amused. they are plenty allowed, but when they say exactly what I said or don't understand I will try to explain myself. But I do understand how funny this must be lol, I have always been stubborn.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 14, 2019 19:55:09 GMT -5
No, you are wrong. Playing legacy successful takes far more than good situational awareness. You have to know exactly what your limits are as the bot your playing. You need to know exactly how many seconds your shields can hold out against shotguns, how fast you can traverse the open field before the enemy turns around to blast you, etc. All a strider needs to know is when to press a button and move in the direction their legs are facing. While we're talking about walking around in the open and taking heavy fire, what about a Lancelot or Rhino. Those guys don't really spend time hiding behind cover. I recommend not even bothering with the goatboy. Strother Martin said it best:
nah, I understand what he is trying to say, but he doesn't understand what I am saying. He currently is being hard to reach. I need an putside opinion, am I not being clear?
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 14, 2019 20:05:42 GMT -5
Have you played the skirmish? Not only is the grif awesome. He looks awesome and I want that griff for champion league lol Thanks for the heads-up. Lotsa jumpty jump jump. That funny Griff skin is weird and with the neon green too! I personally love the raven frim the skirmish, flying back and forth in that thing is wicked fun. Side note has the mercury landing done damage that you could see? Because I don't think it does.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 20:09:28 GMT -5
Strider, Hover and Raven. No middling player can succeed in these bots. Rog too, spent several weeks in the LPQ with BB Spring 2018, he was kicking ?bum-bum? with them, evading, using angles of attack. Really good stuff. Raven definitely had a good deal of risk/reward too, as it has high mobility, good firepower. Kumiho as well. My main is: Jun x2, Strider, Hover, Loki. My developing hangar is: Pursuer, Hellburner, Blitz, Mender and Hover. For me the fun is mobility, always has been. If Pixonic gave two 「fluffernutter」s about the long term viability of the game, they would back down with the cash cows and offer a slower power creep pace....but no, will never happen.
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Post by Thunderkiss on Nov 14, 2019 20:34:50 GMT -5
We get what you are saying but you are also making some generalizations about legacy bot pilots. To put it simply there is both skill needed by the player to play the bot and skills needed to master the bot's ability or abilities. Bots with abilities require skilfull use of the ability and skillful play to be effective. These bots can have a high skill ceiling in terms of how the player can make use of the ability. Bots without an ability or have a weak ability require skillful play to be effective. Bots with powerful abilities allow players to rely on the ability as a crutch when needed (dash to safety, aegis and suppress ect) Bots without powerful abilities REQUIRE skillful play to be effective. They have no crutch. You make one slight mistake and your dead. Their skill ceiling for mastery of their ability may be very low or non existent but they are much more demanding on the player to play in the meta. Simply put the player has to try a heck of alot harder and play more disciplined to compensate for the bots. I can appreciate both. I like bots with interesting abilities that provide for fun and varied gameplay and builds. I also enjoy the challenge of running builds that are considered to be vastly underpowered in the meta. I have hangars of both. but as I said the amount of skill required for running legacy bots is only high if you include the skill of situational awareness, which is a skill that DOESN'T PERTAIN TO THE BOT. You seriously are saying the same thing over and over missing my point the whole time and I am getting very annoyed, reread what I said until you understand THEN talk to me. I don't wanna blow up on anyone else. You are trying to differentiate 2 things that are the same, and saying the same thing over and over won't make that go away. Problems between the user and the keyboard rest solely with the user and no one else.
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Post by reckless1 on Nov 14, 2019 20:49:47 GMT -5
No, you are wrong. Playing legacy successful takes far more than good situational awareness. You have to know exactly what your limits are as the bot your playing. You need to know exactly how many seconds your shields can hold out against shotguns, how fast you can traverse the open field before the enemy turns around to blast you, etc. All a strider needs to know is when to press a button and move in the direction their legs are facing. While we're talking about walking around in the open and taking heavy fire, what about a Lancelot or Rhino. Those guys don't really spend time hiding behind cover. and you are wrong That's some solid logic right there. Why did you start this thread since you're always right anyways ?? It's not like you want any opposing views. When it's almost unanimous that you are wrong and stubborn,I wonder if there could actually be something to what people are saying? Nah...
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Post by TheDecepticonIdeal on Nov 14, 2019 20:57:24 GMT -5
No, you are wrong. Playing legacy successful takes far more than good situational awareness. You have to know exactly what your limits are as the bot your playing. You need to know exactly how many seconds your shields can hold out against shotguns, how fast you can traverse the open field before the enemy turns around to blast you, etc. All a strider needs to know is when to press a button and move in the direction their legs are facing. While we're talking about walking around in the open and taking heavy fire, what about a Lancelot or Rhino. Those guys don't really spend time hiding behind cover. and you are wrong, I said it in my last post, to you, the use of the dash seems easy but to use it correctly and to its greatest effect is much more skill based then you would think. The rest of what you said is part of situational awareness. Leo and rhino usually go down quickly though, rhino leaves a big scar on the field but is gone quickly without a good line up of bad enemies. Leo dies instantly whenever they come out into the open near more than 1 enemy. Alright mate, so you're saying that a bot with 5 dashes can be used in more creative ways than pretty much everything else. Alright, whatever.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 14, 2019 21:21:09 GMT -5
That's some solid logic right there. Why did you start this thread since you're always right anyways ?? It's not like you want any opposing views. When it's almost unanimous thithat you are wrong and stubborn,I wonder if there could actually be something to what people are saying? Nah... what I have said is simply this, legacy bots require more situational awareness than skill with the bots, strider and hover require more skill woth the bot then legacy bots. I have got nothing but a bunch of people saying im wrong but giving nothing to back it up. Hell, half the time they are misunderstanding what I am saying so they twist whatever it was into fitting what they want to continue the argument instead of debating it like grown men. Point out one post on here that isn't chalk full of silly banter because people misunderstand me. Yet again, maybe I am not explaining well enough
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 14, 2019 21:25:56 GMT -5
but as I said the amount of skill required for running legacy bots is only high if you include the skill of situational awareness, which is a skill that DOESN'T PERTAIN TO THE BOT. You seriously are saying the same thing over and over missing my point the whole time and I am getting very annoyed, reread what I said until you understand THEN talk to me. I don't wanna blow up on anyone else. You are trying to differentiate 2 things that are the same, and saying the same thing over and over won't make that go away. Problems between the user and the keyboard rest solely with the user and no one else. skill with a bot and skill of reading the battle field are not the same thing, also I have tried to restate what I said in a clearer way or added more to what I said so as to explain more completely, nothing else until people began with rude coments or tones, then I added a bit more onto what I said that I probably shouldn't have but whatever.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 14, 2019 21:32:07 GMT -5
and you are wrong, I said it in my last post, to you, the use of the dash seems easy but to use it correctly and to its greatest effect is much more skill based then you would think. The rest of what you said is part of situational awareness. Leo and rhino usually go down quickly though, rhino leaves a big scar on the field but is gone quickly without a good line up of bad enemies. Leo dies instantly whenever they come out into the open near more than 1 enemy. Alright mate, so you're saying that a bot with 5 dashes can be used in more creative ways than pretty much everything else. Alright, whatever. lets just leave it at this then, legacy bots require high amounts of situational awareness and a good amount of skill with the bot to pilot. Has nothing to do with the pilot themselves. Strider and hover require higher amounts of skill with the bot and less situational awareness. All in all this is what I have been trying to get at, or at least sort of what I was getting at while I said something that gave offense. Being the apparant idiot of this thread I will on say sorry and only respond in a kind way from now on. Please forgive whatever you took offense from and please try to understand what I have been saying, then I will gladly leave you alone.
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Post by TheDecepticonIdeal on Nov 14, 2019 23:16:00 GMT -5
Alright mate, so you're saying that a bot with 5 dashes can be used in more creative ways than pretty much everything else. Alright, whatever. lets just leave it at this then, legacy bots require high amounts of situational awareness and a good amount of skill with the bot to pilot. Has nothing to do with the pilot themselves. Strider and hover require higher amounts of skill with the bot and less situational awareness. All in all this is what I have been trying to get at, or at least sort of what I was getting at while I said something that gave offense. Being the apparant idiot of this thread I will on say sorry and only respond in a kind way from now on. Please forgive whatever you took offense from and please try to understand what I have been saying, then I will gladly leave you alone. Whoa, no need to self deprecate that much. But yeah, I think it's best to agree to disagree on this matter and move on.
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Post by mystic spastic on Nov 15, 2019 1:08:27 GMT -5
I recommend not even bothering with the goatboy. Strother Martin said it best:
nah, I understand what he is trying to say, but he doesn't understand what I am saying. He currently is being hard to reach. I need an putside opinion, am I not being clear? Against my better judgement, I'll engage with you.
You are actually quite clear in your opinion. You believe that it takes more player skill to operate a bot like the Strider, that has more features/abilities, than it takes to operate a bot like the Griffin or Rogatka, that has fewer abilities.
You're breaking down "skill" into two different components. Situational awareness/knowledge/effective tactics being in one bucket, and for lack of a better term "button pushing" being in the other. Then going on to argue that complexity of button pushing equates to greater skill.
You're getting a lot of pushback on this, because this doesn't match with a lot of other players experience. You're also fighting a bit of a mathematical battle as well, in that you're arguing that doing more with more, is harder than doing more with less. It figuratively (perhaps even literally) doesn't add up.
At any rate, you certainly don't lack for self-confidence, I'll grant you that. But maybe be a bit more open to others opinions.
And rather than engage in the T-Fal bashing thread, I'll put in my piece here. T-Fal can be played in a very boring manner. Waddle in, soak up damage, die. But that doesn't necessarily equate it to being garbage in comparison to the standard Falcon. Sometimes, being an effective damage magnet is what leads to the win.
Not that long ago, in what was previously a pretty close Dom battle on Dreadnaught, we wound up four capped. I spawned the T-Falcon, and what with RH and ARH, boogied right quick to the side beacon where the reds weren't. Apparently this upset them, as four of them came to capture it back. In about a minutes worth of 4-1 skirmishing over that one beacon, my teammates were able to capture or set up to capture the other four beacons. Sure, the T-Fal eventually went down and the beacon was lost. It probably didn't even do that much overall damage, as that wasn't it's role at the time. It was just a (in the eyes of the other team -literally) red herring. As well, staying alive for that long, while trying to avoid fire from four reds was anything but boring. Running a standard Falcon would have been less effective, possibly leading to a loss instead of the win. This is a good War Robots memory for me.
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Ember
Destrier
Deleted my account
Posts: 51
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Pilot name: Ember-
Platform: iOS
League: Master
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Zoomba
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Post by Ember on Nov 15, 2019 2:05:45 GMT -5
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Post by HarvesterOsorrow on Nov 15, 2019 2:42:51 GMT -5
I have 3 -Raven Because it's so easy to mess up with if you don't know what you're doing -Non-T Falcon It's harder to stay alive when you don't have a million health -Bulwark I just though of this because you have to know how to play it, when to use which shields and for how long to conserve all of you possible health. IMO one the bots that can go a whole game without taking damage Bulwark is fun and definitely a skill bot because no other bot is so dependent on shield management. Not fast enough to run away either. Requires solid situational and distance management. I’m still running Goons so all of those are critical and very map dependent
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Post by BB on Nov 15, 2019 5:45:45 GMT -5
l》THE MACHINE《l thanks for calling me into this hot mess that you created here, but no thanks ? IMO, you stepped in it when you made the general assumption that most would agree that Strider and Hover are the only true skill bots in the game, there is no consensus, just your opinion. Sure I have a preference (unnatural love) for Striders, they are my chief money makers in this game, so my opinion is going to be a bit biased. But I also run a stable of Rogs and I take issue with your generalizations about legacy bots competing in champ level. This game has gotten so ridiculously complex in the last year, that making generalizations about bots, levels, play styles, etc... is just kinda silly. With modules, pilots, etc...there are just no hard, fast rules anymore...period. If there is one thing that this thread proves- it is that there is absolutely NO CONSENSUS whatsoever on what the definition of SKILL is, and further, what qualifies as a SKILL BOT.
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Post by no pain 80 on Nov 15, 2019 9:00:02 GMT -5
l》THE MACHINE《l thanks for calling me into this hot mess that you created here, but no thanks ? IMO, you stepped in it when you made the general assumption that most would agree that Strider and Hover are the only true skill bots in the game, there is no consensus, just your opinion. Sure I have a preference (unnatural love) for Striders, they are my chief money makers in this game, so my opinion is going to be a bit biased. But I also run a stable of Rogs and I take issue with your generalizations about legacy bots competing in champ level. This game has gotten so ridiculously complex in the last year, that making generalizations about bots, levels, play styles, etc... is just kinda silly. With modules, pilots, etc...there are just no hard, fast rules anymore...period. If there is one thing that this thread proves- it is that there is absolutely NO CONSENSUS whatsoever on what the definition of SKILL is, and further, what qualifies as a SKILL BOT. But we all agree that Ares is a skill-bot, right?
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 15, 2019 10:06:07 GMT -5
nah, I understand what he is trying to say, but he doesn't understand what I am saying. He currently is being hard to reach. I need an putside opinion, am I not being clear? Against my better judgement, I'll engage with you.
You are actually quite clear in your opinion. You believe that it takes more player skill to operate a bot like the Strider, that has more features/abilities, than it takes to operate a bot like the Griffin or Rogatka, that has fewer abilities.Â
You're breaking down "skill" into two different components. Situational awareness/knowledge/effective tactics being in one bucket, and for lack of a better term "button pushing" being in the other. Then going on to argue that complexity of button pushing equates to greater skill.
You're getting a lot of pushback on this, because this doesn't match with a lot of other players experience. You're also fighting a bit of a mathematical battle as well, in that you're arguing that doing more with more, is harder than doing more with less. It figuratively (perhaps even literally) doesn't add up.Â
At any rate, you certainly don't lack for self-confidence, I'll grant you that. But maybe be a bit more open to others opinions.
And rather than engage in the T-Fal bashing thread, I'll put in my piece here. T-Fal can be played in a very boring manner. Waddle in, soak up damage, die. But that doesn't necessarily equate it to being garbage in comparison to the standard Falcon. Sometimes, being an effective damage magnet is what leads to the win.
Not that long ago, in what was previously a pretty close Dom battle on Dreadnaught, we wound up four capped. I spawned the T-Falcon, and what with RH and ARH, boogied right quick to the side beacon where the reds weren't. Apparently this upset them, as four of them came to capture it back. In about a minutes worth of 4-1 skirmishing over that one beacon, my teammates were able to capture or set up to capture the other four beacons. Sure, the T-Fal eventually went down and the beacon was lost. It probably didn't even do that much overall damage, as that wasn't it's role at the time. It was just a (in the eyes of the other team -literally) red herring. As well, staying alive for that long, while trying to avoid fire from four reds was anything but boring. Running a standard Falcon would have been less effective, possibly leading to a loss instead of the win. This is a good War Robots memory for me.
ah, so I AM being unclear, I broke skill into 2 parts, skill with the bot and skill with reading the battlefield, neither one is completely separate from the other but battlefield knowledge works with any bot while bot skills only effect the bot you are skilled with. There is a skill cap for bots but not for reading the battlefield. I am saying that with less you do less in bot skills but more in battlefield skills. Like a seesaw, legacy bots lean towards the side of battle tactics but when they do so they lose some on the bot skill side. Strider and hover do the opposite, most bots like, IDK take a normal falcon. Battlefield tactics are fairly important but so are skills with the bot itself (jumping the right way, when you use it ect) so falcon is in the middle. I hope that clears what I meant up, now onto the T falc, I meant that thread as T falcon is only a little stronger (in durability) than the normal falcon, sure they both do their job VERY well (T falc pressuring beacons like a mothe「fluffernutter」er while normal falcon can kill most, if not all, bots in a 1v1) but they are very close to being the same in tankiness.
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Post by foxypotato on Nov 18, 2019 4:24:11 GMT -5
You do realise that certain bots require greater situational awareness than others to even be playable in Champions League? That is the argument we are making. You made the mistake of stating that a Haechi takes more skill to run than a Stalker or Doc. We are setting the record straight. how many times are you gonna ignore what I say? I am literally saying that legacy bots require far more situational awareness than skill while strider and hover require more skill than situational awareness, which is what you just said you are arguing. God sake man listen to what is said! You do realise that situational awareness and decision making are player skills? These are some of the most basic skills we have in War Robots. The more powerful the bot's ability the less you have to rely on these basic skills. The less powerful the bot's ability the more heavily you have to rely on these skills. Weak bots require excellent situational awareness and decision making to even be playable on Champions League. Powerful bots with broken or powerful abilities do not require these skills to be playable. You can play like an imbicle and still come out on top by meeting the bare minimum requirement to make the ability work. Who has more skill? The level 10 Griffin competing in Champions League or the level 10 Ao Jun that acts AFK and stands motionless behind walls only ever moving once the ability is active? The answer is obvious. You can make the argument that the Ao Jun can be played as well as the Griffin. But what happens when the Griffin comes out on top in Champions League vs the Ao Jun when both hanagrs are of equal level? The Griffin player had more skill despite the relatively low skill cap of the bot.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 8:50:49 GMT -5
how many times are you gonna ignore what I say? I am literally saying that legacy bots require far more situational awareness than skill while strider and hover require more skill than situational awareness, which is what you just said you are arguing. God sake man listen to what is said! You do realise that situational awareness and decision making are player skills? These are some of the most basic skills we have in War Robots. The more powerful the bot's ability the less you have to rely on these basic skills. The less powerful the bot's ability the more heavily you have to rely on these skills. Weak bots require excellent situational awareness and decision making to even be playable on Champions League. Powerful bots with broken or powerful abilities do not require these skills to be playable. You can play like an imbicle and still come out on top by meeting the bare minimum requirement to make the ability work. Who has more skill? The level 10 Griffin competing in Champions League or the level 10 Ao Jun that acts AFK and stands motionless behind walls only ever moving once the ability is active? The answer is obvious. You can make the argument that the Ao Jun can be played as well as the Griffin. But what happens when the Griffin comes out on top in Champions League vs the Ao Jun when both hanagrs are of equal level? The Griffin player had more skill despite the relatively low skill cap of the bot. Good post
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Post by mechtout on Nov 18, 2019 9:04:37 GMT -5
Hats off if youre still running a rhino, the manueverabilty on that thing is about as clunky as a ford pinto
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 18, 2019 10:33:57 GMT -5
how many times are you gonna ignore what I say? I am literally saying that legacy bots require far more situational awareness than skill while strider and hover require more skill than situational awareness, which is what you just said you are arguing. God sake man listen to what is said! You do realise that situational awareness and decision making are player skills? These are some of the most basic skills we have in War Robots. The more powerful the bot's ability the less you have to rely on these basic skills. The less powerful the bot's ability the more heavily you have to rely on these skills. Weak bots require excellent situational awareness and decision making to even be playable on Champions League. Powerful bots with broken or powerful abilities do not require these skills to be playable. You can play like an imbicle and still come out on top by meeting the bare minimum requirement to make the ability work. Who has more skill? The level 10 Griffin competing in Champions League or the level 10 Ao Jun that acts AFK and stands motionless behind walls only ever moving once the ability is active? The answer is obvious. You can make the argument that the Ao Jun can be played as well as the Griffin. But what happens when the Griffin comes out on top in Champions League vs the Ao Jun when both hanagrs are of equal level? The Griffin player had more skill despite the relatively low skill cap of the bot. This is exactly what I said. Strider and hover require high amounts of skill, this skill being bot based skill. While leo or natasha require more player based skills aka situational awareness, you are saying the exact same thing that I am. Look at some of my other posts.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Nov 18, 2019 10:36:49 GMT -5
You do realise that situational awareness and decision making are player skills? These are some of the most basic skills we have in War Robots. The more powerful the bot's ability the less you have to rely on these basic skills. The less powerful the bot's ability the more heavily you have to rely on these skills. Weak bots require excellent situational awareness and decision making to even be playable on Champions League. Powerful bots with broken or powerful abilities do not require these skills to be playable. You can play like an imbicle and still come out on top by meeting the bare minimum requirement to make the ability work. Who has more skill? The level 10 Griffin competing in Champions League or the level 10 Ao Jun that acts AFK and stands motionless behind walls only ever moving once the ability is active? The answer is obvious. You can make the argument that the Ao Jun can be played as well as the Griffin. But what happens when the Griffin comes out on top in Champions League vs the Ao Jun when both hanagrs are of equal level? The Griffin player had more skill despite the relatively low skill cap of the bot. Good post but he is repeating what I am saying. He made my argument for me
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