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Post by Russel on Jun 18, 2017 6:56:39 GMT -5
Hey guys, quick question about WIKI terminology. There is a controversy about "burst" and "cycle" stuff on the wiki. Recently I ran a test, and Thunder's "burst" actually is 9 shots, not 5 shots. This is due to "reload while firing" mechanism, so it goes like this: 1 shot (four left in clip) 2 shot (one reloaded, so four left again) 3 shot (three left) 4 shot (one is reloaded, so three left) 5 shot (two left) 6 shot (reload, two left) 7 shot (one left) 8 shot (reload, one left) 9 shot (none left in clip) a pause, and we continue with 2 RPS speed. So, actual "burst" that Thunder is capable or doing with it's original RPS is nine shots. Why do we use "5 shots burst"? I think it is a bit misleading. Big guys, what would you say? Dredd77 and I don't know how to tag any more people :\ P.s. same applies to rockets\gekko of course. |
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inspirace
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Post by inspirace on Jun 18, 2017 9:20:40 GMT -5
I think the most accurate depiction of weapon dmg is "max cumulative damage curve over time". there once was a thread and a google excel sheet to calculate that and compare among custom loadouts: war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/post/120169check above link and links therein. it was made by a person "karasus" (?). I hope he develop it to a web tool (java?) and link it to wiki, but it didn't happen yet. I occasionally use the spreadsheet to compare weapon setups, |
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Post by Russel on Jun 18, 2017 9:36:20 GMT -5
I think the most accurate depiction of weapon dmg is "max cumulative damage curve over time". there once was a thread and a google excel sheet to calculate that for custom loadouts: war-robots-forum.freeforums.net/post/120169check above link and links therein. it was made by a person "karasus" (?). I hope he develop it to a web tool (java?) and link it to wiki, but it didn't happen yet. I occasionally use the spreadsheet to compare weapons, Thanks, it is a nice tool, but info is outdated (Molot RPS, Pinata RPS, Hydra RPS, etc), and it is not what I asked :-D My question is more related to terminology. What do we call a "burst" and why. I thought that "burst" is a number of shots weapon make before it goes into reload and stops shooting or start shooting slower due to "fire when reload". This characteristic provides information for user - what would your "ambush" damage be. Or how much damage you can inflict in single continuous volley, before your weapon starts re-charge or goes into slow RPS mode. However current understanding of "burst damage" and, to some extent, "burst dps" is more like "damage to be done by a number of shots in the clip, without taking auto-reloaded shots into account". And while it might bear some academic information, it is a bit misleading for a practical use. Example: I used to think that Thunder shots 5 times, and then goes into reload. So I used to fire 3-4 shots, and then go hide for reload in my Carnage. However example from the first post indicates that Carny could provide barrage of 9 uninterrupted shots before Thunders would go into lethargic firerate mode; So basically with my lvl9 Thunders I can destroy any bot in a single 9-seconds burst. |
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inspirace
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Post by inspirace on Jun 18, 2017 9:52:14 GMT -5
the reloading mechanism is exactly why this "cumulative max dmg over time curve" is more useful, bcs now the concept of a "clip" is ambigous or not very useful as you pointed out. one can look at, numerate, and compare first two, five, ten, or thirty seconds of dmg output in this curve. yes, the data might be outdated, hope someone can update them. I think it considers molot/punisher getting hot while firing, but haven't paid attention to detailed numbers.
your thunder example at OP makes sense, too. maybe one can define burst dmg as "dmg until the weapon reaches its lowest firing rate" for auto-reloading weapons?
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Post by Russel on Jun 18, 2017 10:11:02 GMT -5
the reloading mechanism is exactly why this "cumulative max dmg over time curve" is more useful, bcs now the concept of a "clip" is ambigous or not very useful as you pointed out. one can look at, numerate, and compare first two, five, ten, or thirty seconds of dmg output in this curve. yes, the data might be outdated, hope someone can update them. I think it considers molot/punisher getting hot while firing, but haven't paid attention to detailed numbers. your thunder example at OP makes sense, too. maybe one can define burst dmg as "dmg until the weapon reaches its lowest firing rate" for auto-reloading weapons? Yep, I think it should be "burst" exactly. But want to get second opinion on that before changing such a fundamental definition. |
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Post by BastionOW on Jun 23, 2017 17:36:09 GMT -5
Hey guys, quick question about WIKI terminology. There is a controversy about "burst" and "cycle" stuff on the wiki. Recently I ran a test, and Thunder's "burst" actually is 9 shots, not 5 shots. This is due to "reload while firing" mechanism, so it goes like this: 1 shot (four left in clip) 2 shot (one reloaded, so four left again) 3 shot (three left) 4 shot (one is reloaded, so three left) 5 shot (two left) 6 shot (reload, two left) 7 shot (one left) 8 shot (reload, one left) 9 shot (none left in clip) a pause, and we continue with 2 RPS speed. So, actual "burst" that Thunder is capable or doing with it's original RPS is nine shots. Why do we use "5 shots burst"? I think it is a bit misleading. Big guys, what would you say? Dredd77 and I don't know how to tag any more people :\ P.s. same applies to rockets\gekko of course. I always had this theory with Orkans. So you'd fire the normal 32 clip ( fire rate is 8.3 secs and you fire 32 rockets in 3.85 seconds) and then the Orkan reloads 5 rockets (reloads 1 rocket every 0.7 seconds) and your clip is extended to 37 rockets. When you're finished firing those 37 rockets, you would've been firing for 4.49 seconds and the Orkans would've reloaded yet another rocket. Apparently, in essence, an Orkan has 38 rockets in a clip. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2017 23:52:56 GMT -5
I may be in the minority on this Russel, but to me, burst damage is a function of time, not capacity. In other words, how much damage does a thunder output in 7 seconds vs an Orkan. Usually most firefights end in 7 seconds or less, unless ancilots are involved. |
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Post by Russel on Jun 24, 2017 1:45:00 GMT -5
I may be in the minority on this Russel , but to me, burst damage is a function of time, not capacity. In other words, how much damage does a thunder output in 7 seconds vs an Orkan. Usually most firefights end in 7 seconds or less, unless ancilots are involved. Might very well be, and it is calculated easily by BurstDPS; but we don't know yet how long exactly "burst" can be, and it is calculated exactly by the "burst damage" I suggest introducing. |
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Post by Team Alpha Strike on Jun 24, 2017 3:11:21 GMT -5
I may be in the minority on this Russel , but to me, burst damage is a function of time, not capacity. In other words, how much damage does a thunder output in 7 seconds vs an Orkan. Usually most firefights end in 7 seconds or less, unless ancilots are involved. To me, DPS and burst damage are in categorized as: 1) 0 - if your target is out of range or if you are in range but hiding due to red suppression fire. 2) Infinite - if you are in range while hiding while holding down a beacon and the red won't close in cause they know you'll kill them (fear of being killed is a weapon in itself). 3) Who Knows - when you are firing in range and there's lag or your opponent really drives a mech well. 4) Oh No - I have the wrong weapons and I have to beat down a shield first. 5) Meh - I killed you, but took on significant damage. 6) Cha-Ching! - I killed you and came off with little to no damage! In the end, your skill largely dictates what your bot's actual DPS/Burst Damage is at the moment. |
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 14, 2017 6:31:30 GMT -5
Hey guys, quick question about WIKI terminology. There is a controversy about "burst" and "cycle" stuff on the wiki. Recently I ran a test, and Thunder's "burst" actually is 9 shots, not 5 shots. This is due to "reload while firing" mechanism, so it goes like this: 1 shot (four left in clip) 2 shot (one reloaded, so four left again) 3 shot (three left) 4 shot (one is reloaded, so three left) 5 shot (two left) 6 shot (reload, two left) 7 shot (one left) 8 shot (reload, one left) 9 shot (none left in clip) a pause, and we continue with 2 RPS speed. So, actual "burst" that Thunder is capable or doing with it's original RPS is nine shots. Sorry to say Russel , but, you caculation was only slightly off. It reloads once every 2 seconds, so once it shoots that 8th shot and there's one left, which is the 9th shot, another once reloads, making it 10 shots in total. P.S Sorry zer00eyz |
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Post by Russel on Nov 14, 2017 16:22:43 GMT -5
Hey guys, quick question about WIKI terminology. There is a controversy about "burst" and "cycle" stuff on the wiki. Recently I ran a test, and Thunder's "burst" actually is 9 shots, not 5 shots. This is due to "reload while firing" mechanism, so it goes like this: 1 shot (four left in clip) 2 shot (one reloaded, so four left again) 3 shot (three left) 4 shot (one is reloaded, so three left) 5 shot (two left) 6 shot (reload, two left) 7 shot (one left) 8 shot (reload, one left) 9 shot (none left in clip) a pause, and we continue with 2 RPS speed. So, actual "burst" that Thunder is capable or doing with it's original RPS is nine shots. Sorry to say Russel , but, you calculation was only slightly off. It reloads once every 2 seconds, so once it shoots that 8th shot and there's one left, which is the 9th shot, another once reloads, making it 10 shots in total. zer00eyz Oh, you forced me to kill another one of the rare species Griffin in this Haechi world to test this out and record a video :( Nine shot burst, you can count and enjoy. Take notice that in the beginning, I am still recovering from switching back and forth from the app to click "record" and start shooting; Thunder is loaded fully and I'm not shooting. p.s. Numbers in my list are NOT seconds, they are shots. And Thunder shot is taking less than 1 second itself, I'd say about 0.1-0.2 sec is the shot and then 0.9-0.8 sec is a cooldown. So as soon as you shoot 9th shot the next shot will be A LITTLE BIT sooner than 2 seconds, I'd say in 1.8 sec Sorry for not being clear with the numbers. |
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 14, 2017 22:10:27 GMT -5
Sorry to say Russel , but, you calculation was only slightly off. It reloads once every 2 seconds, so once it shoots that 8th shot and there's one left, which is the 9th shot, another once reloads, making it 10 shots in total. zer00eyz Oh, you forced me to kill another one of the rare species Griffin in this Haechi world to test this out and record a video  Nine shot burst, you can count and enjoy. Take notice that in the beginning, I am still recovering from switching back and forth from the app to click "record" and start shooting; Thunder is loaded fully and I'm not shooting. p.s. Numbers in my list are NOT seconds, they are shots. And Thunder shot is taking less than 1 second itself, I'd say about 0.1-0.2 sec is the shot and then 0.9-0.8 sec is a cooldown. So as soon as you shoot 9th shot the next shot will be A LITTLE BIT sooner than 2 seconds, I'd say in 1.8 sec Sorry for not being clear with the numbers. But it's a two second reload per shot, doesn't that mean that ~2 seconds after the 8th shot, another one should've reloaded and fired? |
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ma'ElKoth
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Post by ma'ElKoth on Nov 15, 2017 2:57:28 GMT -5
Fully loaded, it got 5 shots and fires 1/s . A new shot is loaded every 2s.
So after
0s: 1 shot
1s: 1 shot
2s: 1 shot + 1 reloaded (A)
3s: 1 shot
4s: 1 shot + 1 reloaded (B)
5s: 1 shot (A)
6s: 1 shot (B) + 1 reloaded (C)
7s: 1 shot (C)
8s: ....that's when the next reload completes and allows you to instantly fire once more
PS: please note that this discussion is 5 months old.
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Post by BastionOW on Nov 15, 2017 4:02:47 GMT -5
Fully loaded, it got 5 shots and fires 1/s . A new shot is loaded every 2s. So after 0s: 1 shot 1s: 1 shot 2s: 1 shot + 1 reloaded (A) 3s: 1 shot 4s: 1 shot + 1 reloaded (B) 5s: 1 shot (A) 6s: 1 shot (B) + 1 reloaded (C) 7s: 1 shot (C) 8s: ....that's when the next reload completes and allows you to instantly fire once more PS: please note that this discussion is 5 months old. Makes sense. P.S. I didn't say sorry to zer00eyz for no reason... |
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ma'ElKoth
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Post by ma'ElKoth on Nov 15, 2017 4:17:04 GMT -5
PS: please note that this discussion is 5 months old. P.S. I didn't say sorry to zer00eyz for no reason... PS: sorry, did not realize/understand  |
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Post by trestuges on Apr 17, 2020 18:42:29 GMT -5
LOL, well, here I am, not 5 months later, but rather some 2.5 years later, a relatively "amateur" War Robots player in relation to everyone here, having finally gotten to the point where I'm kinda sorta getting serious about my War Robots skills and deciding that I need to figure out what the word "burst" means in the various information sources related to War Robots weapons damage I've found, of which there are many, many of which "feel" useful, yet all of which also feel intuitively incomplete to what's left of my mathematical senses. And even though this thread seems to get tantalizingly close to fullfilling my own particular informational need, and I've read it over and over (and over probably a few more times), it makes my head hurt. Probably somewhat similar to how it feels to read this comment, LOL! (I'd love to throw my opening sentence here to one of my grade school teachers who seemed to have a grading/critque vocubulary that consisted of nothing more than "run-on sentence.") :-) I think I'm gonna just keep plugging away playing while hoping for a revelation to hit me regarding "burst." Strike Team Alpha's understanding is very similar to my own. LOL!
P.S. Hey! I'm almost proud of myself for realizing just as I posted this message that the image/chart reference mentioned above is dealing with a situation where you've got two medium slots and two light slots. Up to that point, it was confusing me, too, because I'm just like, take four Orkans! LOL! Bear with me, please, I may be a little slow at times, but I'm lovable and often very entertaining....
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