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Post by elttaes on Jun 8, 2017 2:58:11 GMT -5
Y'know, as far as I can tell, the matchmaking system works pretty well, except for all the leavers and tankers and clubbers that break it.
Gold II (android) this morning.
Game 1: Yamantau. Doing great in my Gareth, and plowing deep into the red backfield, but the reds seem to be blowing right through center and heading to our spawn. 3 minutes into the game and blue is down by 3 players. That's not just disconnects.
Game 2: Shenzhen. Had a pretty easy time defeating the reds, feeling good about my piloting until I look at the team stats and red was missing a guy.
Game 3: Yamantau. Beaten badly. After the match, one guy with 1 beacon and no damage. Okay, could be a disconnect, but he's carrying a lvl1 Cossack with lvl1 Hydra into a Gold II game? really?
Had a game last night where the lead red got almost twice the damage of anybody else in the game. Checked his stats afterward. Huh, a Silver II player. With an almost full 12/12 hangar.
The matchmaker _would_ work just fine if it weren't for all these .... people that break it.
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Post by joshfishyu on Jun 8, 2017 3:04:38 GMT -5
The hangar-based old MM also worked wonderfully if there's no clubbers running around in their mag geps.
The problem is always people want easy gold and silver, and Pixonic seems to always left some loopholes for players to exploit.
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zigzak0110
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Post by zigzak0110 on Jun 8, 2017 3:52:12 GMT -5
I suggest you try Diamond 3 in Android and say that again.
Pix recently merged Diamond, Expert, Master and Champion into the same pool to reduce time finding match on higher league. As a legit player I reached diamond 3 with 8/8 hangar and got totally melted by 12/12 players from Master/Champion constantly.
Practice your skill, upgrade your bots while in silver and gold and for what? To turn into a decayed sandbag that got teared apart after a few bunches?
What the point of league division above diamond when you are forced to play with the remaining?
Is Pix slowly legalizing seal-clubbing?
'You have reached 2300 trophies'
'You have evolved'
'Congratulation! You have transformed into...A SEAL'
Now go enjoy having your brain clubbed.
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Post by TravLar on Jun 8, 2017 5:50:12 GMT -5
Yeah I think it works fine. Players forget that they have to be losing 48 or 49% of their games or there's no balance.
When you check you're own team's hangars there are normally bots in your team to match those in the red team. Don't forget, you're a red to 6 other players. Also, note sometimes you just walk over the other team too...
Chance plays a big role in this game too; Your leo mag thunder comes across a thunder carnage at 300m and you're laughing. If its a DB Griff... not so funny.
I was ready to bin my Gareth yesterday under the RDB onslaught and then helped team wins in two games capping beacons with it this morning. Blues were just doing the right things and keeping me safe and I had plama and still shield left to kill a taran fujin in the one game.
So yeah, I say ups to Pix on their MM. I'm playing with quality players and bots against quality players and bots. My rating climbs steadily and I'm making the gold and silver to keep my hangar apace but its never easy or impossible.
Viva la LQ! |
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Post by procrastinatron on Jun 8, 2017 6:04:59 GMT -5
I agree. MM never actually 「fluffernutter」s me badly, i thought tanking nd clubbing would happen as i get higher in leagues. I never put much thought into it, until this morning.
This morning i was gonna do some dailies as usual, dropped into shenzhen. Just before that match i read a thread about someone getting matched on this map against 6 ancilots, i remember thinking "lol poor guy. Gl next time dude". Im in gold 3 android so i thought ill never get into such 「dookie」ty situation. Boy was i wrong.
I immediately noticed 6 reds wearing the same (chinese) clan tag and all using chinese names, i shrugged it off as "well this is shenzhen, those r the citizens" and once the countdown finishes i scanned the reds, all had blue bars. I got worried, and for good reasons. All are actually ancilots, marching in pairs. Just like that thread described.
Surprisingly my team was decent, a thunder carnage ran beside my rdb, and a trident carnage followed me. We killed a pair and was pounding the ones holding center before getting destroyed, the rest of blue team was able to injure some badly, too. I thought "wow, this is doable!" and assumed we could win.
To my surprise, those who got killed also respawned with ancilots. We kind of struggled, but eventually killed the second wave. With 5 blues remaining. And they respawned in 3 thundorkan lance and 3 trident fury. We simply couldnt win, even if we did kill the ancilots. After the match, the reds are fully squadded, 12/12. Their win rates was well above 70%. It was one of the chinese tanker clans.
It baffles me tho. Even if one of those guys are on the red team, he wouldve slaughtered us. Was 6 of them necessary? And on comms too? Really?
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meteormash
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Post by meteormash on Jun 8, 2017 7:53:51 GMT -5
The hangar-based old MM also worked wonderfully if there's no clubbers running around in their mag geps. The problem is always people want easy gold and silver, and Pixonic seems to always left some loopholes for players to exploit. ...Except you could leave the game if you saw clubbers and find a new match. Now you're penalized for leaving! Ha Ha! |
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Post by Thunderkiss on Jun 8, 2017 9:18:41 GMT -5
I think the largest issue the mm has is sorting squads from randoms. Players themselves Bork squad play if there's a big disparity of leagues within the squad itself; if the spectrum runs from silver to master/champ, these squads will still be matched against full champ hangars, which speaks to players not fully understanding how the mm works in squad play. But players share blame with pixo on this, as there is no system in place to allow for an even playing field while letting people squad with whom they want.
Tl;dr: mm still needs a LOT of work.
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Post by elttaes on Jun 8, 2017 9:57:17 GMT -5
Yeah the match making algorithm works amazing by putting you against a player with Level 12 bots. Good thinking  No, that dude had clearly been tanking, since he was listed as Silver II, which his hangar _clearly_ was not. I thought I had made that really clear from my post. He had a 12/12 hangar and was listed Silver II. That's not a matchmaker issue, that's somebody screwing with the MM. Other points... Sometimes it's the blues: Yeah, sometimes it is. I don't like winning walkovers because several reds left, or because one blue scored twice as much damage as the entire rest of the team. Check your team, there are equivalent hangars on the blue team. Uh, no. Otherwise it wouldn't be a hugely unbalanced game where one side has no chance. For example, none of the blue team had anything above L10 against that Silver II 12/12 player. Diamond: haven't been there, but that does seem like an unfortunate situation. Squads: agree, I'd think it wouldn't be that hard to mix, but it does seem to have issues. |
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Post by Ⅎ₹ѺC₭₩ELDEℲ₹ on Jun 8, 2017 10:14:17 GMT -5
Yeah the match making algorithm works amazing by putting you against a player with Level 12 bots. Good thinking Yes, the MM it will put you with a level 12/12 hanger hiding in Gold league if you are in that range. It will put you against 12/12 hangers sandbagging in silver if you are silver there abouts. And when the current player pool is out of options it will throw curve balls.. The MM can only fill basic parameters based on an honest players ability. Since there is the inevitable base of dishonest manipulators then yes the MM will never work...NO MM ever will. The game, and the fun had in it, is only as good as the people who play it as it was intended. People who want to play the game to exploit subtract from the sum. I am counting the days till custom matches |
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Post by hyderier on Jun 8, 2017 10:26:56 GMT -5
Only solution (for any MM system) is to make it more profitable to be in "fair" matches. In the case of current MM with leagues, only way to make it work is to give more rewards (Ag and Au) in higher leagues.
I have a hopeful suspicion, that Pix is going to do this with Influence points. That'd reduce tanking, that's for sure, even if it was just Influence points and not Ag/Au.
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Post by Poopface on Jun 8, 2017 10:39:30 GMT -5
The hangar-based old MM also worked wonderfully if there's no clubbers running around in their mag geps. The problem is always people want easy gold and silver, and Pixonic seems to always left some loopholes for players to exploit. If they had set user level thresholds that problem would have been easily solved. Level 1-28 and 29+ in separate leagues would have addressed it. |
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Post by ♧SGT FURY 24/7♧ on Jun 8, 2017 10:40:50 GMT -5
The hangar-based old MM also worked wonderfully if there's no clubbers running around in their mag geps. Just want to point out that mag geps were available to everyone under the same terms. The reason I wanted my first one (eventually had 5 of them) is I saw how awesome they were when I was clubbed by them - many times. I've been on both ends of the club. What I hear lately when someone complains about a bot or weapon that becomes dominant is "stop whining and learn how to beat it!" Where were these people when Geps were dominating, I wonder? Not trying to get in a big argument or anything, just want to make clear how we got into the current MM hell - it was players whining about mag geps that drove Pixonic to ditch the old gear based MM and give us, for better or worse, the Leagues so many are complaining about now. Also, all Pixonic really had to do was nerf the geps a bit...and they did that too, just a few days before the new MM. I think it's safe to say they over fixed the Gep "problem", since they're rarely seen anymore. Might be time to break em out for a bit so they don't rust. |
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 8, 2017 12:06:02 GMT -5
Yeah I think it works fine. Players forget that they have to be losing 48 or 49% of their games or there's no balance.
When you check you're own team's hangars there are normally bots in your team to match those in the red team. Don't forget, you're a red to 6 other players. Also, note sometimes you just walk over the other team too...
Chance plays a big role in this game too; Your leo mag thunder comes across a thunder carnage at 300m and you're laughing. If its a DB Griff... not so funny.
I was ready to bin my Gareth yesterday under the RDB onslaught and then helped team wins in two games capping beacons with it this morning. Blues were just doing the right things and keeping me safe and I had plama and still shield left to kill a taran fujin in the one game.
So yeah, I say ups to Pix on their MM. I'm playing with quality players and bots against quality players and bots. My rating climbs steadily and I'm making the gold and silver to keep my hangar apace but its never easy or impossible.
Viva la LQ! > Players forget that they have to be losing 48 or 49% of their games or there's no balance. Not really true any more.... I stay well over this and mostly league point stable. Thats the key here... league point stable. |
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 8, 2017 12:20:28 GMT -5
I would like to point out two cases where MM does me wrong that has nothing to do with other people. 1. Drops me in late (and I seem to get this a lot) --- look your team is already gotten the first beacon and almost the 2nd, have a great game as a beacon runner. 2. Does crap like this: imgur.com/a/MACFm Yes we won, yes I got 5 gold, and you know what it was a boring game. I love when games are CLOSE, down to the wire or have wild swings.... a 6v6 beatdown isn't fun for anyone. |
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Post by Vectivus on Jun 8, 2017 12:40:19 GMT -5
A robust reporting / ban system would work wonders, too. I realize that War Robots isn't on the level of complexity and player numbers as something like League of Legends, but one would think that smaller numbers would make reading reports & issuing bans easier to do.
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Post by hyderier on Jun 8, 2017 13:50:26 GMT -5
A robust reporting / ban system would work wonders, too. I realize that War Robots isn't on the level of complexity and player numbers as something like League of Legends, but one would think that smaller numbers would make reading reports & issuing bans easier to do. What reports? "Played with Hydras" or "Played suicidally" or "Had unleveled bot in Gold" or what? It'd be a witch hunt. And real tankers would still not be affected, as you can't ban playing badly. |
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Post by ΒΣRΖΣRKΛ²³ on Jun 8, 2017 14:25:14 GMT -5
A robust reporting / ban system would work wonders, too. I realize that War Robots isn't on the level of complexity and player numbers as something like League of Legends, but one would think that smaller numbers would make reading reports & issuing bans easier to do. What reports? "Played with Hydras" or "Played suicidally" or "Had unleveled bot in Gold" or what? It'd be a witch hunt. And real tankers would still not be affected, as you can't ban playing badly. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH "Played with hydras" lmao how bout "played reckless","capped our home beacon" or "didn't wait for me to cap beacon together" or "activated stealth mode just when I shot at him" muhaha I could go on forever..we absolutely need something like this?  |
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Post by Vectivus on Jun 8, 2017 14:36:29 GMT -5
A robust reporting / ban system would work wonders, too. I realize that War Robots isn't on the level of complexity and player numbers as something like League of Legends, but one would think that smaller numbers would make reading reports & issuing bans easier to do. What reports? "Played with Hydras" or "Played suicidally" or "Had unleveled bot in Gold" or what? It'd be a witch hunt. And real tankers would still not be affected, as you can't ban playing badly. League of Legends' system is a drop-down menu, if I recall, wherein you select the offense closest to what you're observing. (There are options like "AFK / Leaving", "Assisting Enemy Team", "Inappropriate Language", etc). Then there's a notes field that you can type any additional info in. Once that report is sent in, game employees take a look at the logs of the game and issue penalties as appropriate. It's not difficult in concept. |
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Post by ♧SGT FURY 24/7♧ on Jun 8, 2017 20:48:55 GMT -5
A robust reporting / ban system would work wonders, too. I realize that War Robots isn't on the level of complexity and player numbers as something like League of Legends, but one would think that smaller numbers would make reading reports & issuing bans easier to do. Really don't think I'd want to see this. Can you imagine the total tattle tale contest that would turn into? If rewards cease at a certain point below a players max League rank, tanking will stop. They do it for the payout. Just stop paying out, and there'll be a lot less to complain about. |
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aladeen
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Post by aladeen on Jun 8, 2017 20:58:11 GMT -5
A robust reporting / ban system would work wonders, too. I realize that War Robots isn't on the level of complexity and player numbers as something like League of Legends, but one would think that smaller numbers would make reading reports & issuing bans easier to do. Really don't think I'd want to see this. Can you imagine the total tattle tale contest that would turn into? If rewards cease at a certain point below a players max League rank, tanking will stop. They do it for the payout. Just stop paying out, and there'll be a lot less to complain about. I don't think you understand the mindset of these type of players, a lvl 12/12 hanger in gold or below is only after the lolz |
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SlamCatalina
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Post by SlamCatalina on Jun 8, 2017 20:59:41 GMT -5
Sorry I've only had 1,300 wins and still can't figure out MM. Isn't it as simple as hanger/bot strength? By attaching a "league" mechanism to MM, it introduces all the craziness such as Gold 2 player who's really tanking since he's actually Master level. If everyone has all, say, Level 7 bots and weps (give or take 1 or 2 levels so you won't wait forever to fill out the battle), then those with higher skill will likely fare better. It's similar to NASCAR where same car means better driver wins. Am I seeing this wrong?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 21:19:00 GMT -5
Sorry I've only had 1,300 wins and still can't figure out MM. Isn't it as simple as hanger/bot strength? By attaching a "league" mechanism to MM, it introduces all the craziness such as Gold 2 player who's really tanking since he's actually Master level. If everyone has all, say, Level 7 bots and weps (give or take 1 or 2 levels so you won't wait forever to fill out the battle), then those with higher skill will likely fare better. It's similar to NASCAR where same car means better driver wins. Am I seeing this wrong? MM is solely based on the MM, with no factor relating to equipment other than how well players use it. Even with a hangar based ssystem, the biggest problem the MM has had is that newer players aren't reaching the upper echelons fast enough. With the old MM(pure hangar) that meant a lot of people just stop leveling and stayed at the top of their level brackets. With this MM, it means your 7/7-8/8 hangar is going to see max level players if you win against your peers, and there is fiddly squat you can do about it except take the beatings for weeks while you eek out those weapons, or buy Au and Ag to skyrocket there, or, force losses until you're not fighting max hangars anymore. Most people choose the latter. While in the old MM, players had the choice to just stop progressing, with this new one people have to ruin everyone's time to get out of TT land. |
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Post by T34 on Jun 8, 2017 21:32:03 GMT -5
MM is based on an ELO algorithm, influenced by the league points system, influenced by the league level position (eg silver)..... blha blha ....
Outcome
- long term 50% win loss rate average irrespective of bots/weapons/skills
- it manipulates reds and blues to achieve 50% win loss for all players
- effectively freezes players in their league (sort of indirect effect and the point system contributes a lot to this)
- throws together people with different bot/weapon levels/classes (see Jarvis above)
- authorises seal clubbing (see Jarvis above)
Assumption
- most of the players in gold and below have no clue about it. those leagues have the wast majority of players.
- i'd say it generates more revenue than the old MM
and I reckon authorized seal clubbing by the MM is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than tanker based seal clubbing
Conclusion
its going to be around for a long time bc those in the know are a minority and most of the revenue is generated from the groups who just don't know.
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Post by zer00eyz on Jun 8, 2017 23:38:38 GMT -5
MM is based on an ELO algorithm, influenced by the league points system, influenced by the league level position (eg silver)..... blha blha .... Outcome - long term 50% win loss rate average irrespective of bots/weapons/skills - it manipulates reds and blues to achieve 50% win loss for all players - effectively freezes players in their league (sort of indirect effect and the point system contributes a lot to this) "MM is based on an ELO algorithm.." MM is ELO like. It has all the issues of ELO, none of the upside and a bunch of messy complexity as it is trying to balance power AND skill. "long term 50% win loss rate average" Simply put NO. In the previous league points distribution this might have felt true. Except for those folks who settled in to %40 or %60 averages... The current points distribution means that this far removed from the truth. The ranges are 30% to %80 for league point stability.... " it manipulates reds and blues to achieve 50% win loss for all players" Pix gave us a clue that league score is the biggest determining factor in how MM works, Gain points get harder opponents, loose them get easier ones. "effectively freezes players in their league (sort of indirect effect and the point system contributes a lot to this)" Ok this WAS somewhat true. The previous points distribution just created plenty of ways for players to lock themselves in to place, and do it in a way where they would be blocking others (4 slots over leveled hangers, players with poor performance). |
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abracadabra
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Post by abracadabra on Jun 9, 2017 0:14:31 GMT -5
This morning i was gonna do some dailies as usual, dropped into Shenzhen .... Hey procrastinatron You are good storyteller, do you know that? )))
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Post by procrastinatron on Jun 9, 2017 0:18:12 GMT -5
This morning i was gonna do some dailies as usual, dropped into Shenzhen .... Hey procrastinatron You are good storyteller, do you know that? )))
Wow im flattered kudos to your willpower for reading through my wall of text, im glad you enjoyed it  |
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Post by drake1588 on Jun 9, 2017 0:26:03 GMT -5
Had a weird mix my last two matches. Diamond to champion in first one. Silver gold and diamond in second. Squads of all silver players were on both teams. Not sure if it had to do with me being in the challenge for diamond 3 stage of gold 1 possibly. Not LQ for sure, or shouldn't be.
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Post by ♧SGT FURY 24/7♧ on Jun 9, 2017 10:08:25 GMT -5
I don't think you understand the mindset of these type of players, a lvl 12/12 hanger in gold or below is only after the lolz This is true, but hopefully not for the majority. May be misplaced benefit of the doubt, but I've always assumed the majority of tankers were motivated by the easy gold and silver. That was my motivation as a 5 Gep clubber, although I had the freedom to beef up and play in gold tier when I got the urge. I would also squad with gold tier players but only take my Geps for a real challenge now and then. Did ok then, too. |
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