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Post by GreenFace on Apr 19, 2017 12:32:11 GMT -5
I refuse to sugarcoating with any words:
The current MM really works...for the people who already maxed or at least near maxed. Because the only way to get a "fair" winrate (a winrate that doesn't matched us with much higher opponents even if it's very high), is when we are UP THERE at the peak of food chain.
And with that fact, the current MM also really works...for the developer. To be up there, we PAY... A LOT. With a lot of real money (buy and upgrading relevant bots/weaps good enough to compete), and/or with a lot of online time (so the game has deep enough player pool)
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Post by zer00eyz on Apr 19, 2017 12:34:07 GMT -5
Hanger based MM: By putting up a system that lets you earn/grind, and have high satisfaction, lets you do painful upgrades in the background while having a good time is not a good way to maximize revenue. Pix spent a lot of money getting its user base to where it is, and is probably at the point of diminishing returns on it. 1.5 million DAU is BIG for a game, and a mobile one at that. How do you do hanger based MM and make it punishing enough to make people spend money! Why do you think the current MM encourages the spending of money more? If you get your Ancilot and the Fury, you're still up against TT clubbers in your unlevelled robot. And clubbing is easier than before, as is painfully obvious by the loads of tankers in the game. The more players have fun with the game, the more income. If you spoil the fun, you hurt your revenue. The usual reaction from most players I know is "I won't spend a dime until Pixo fixes this mess", and that partly from players who used to buy premium like clockwork. I don't think the current MM works with the design and price of the game... Hence the reaction we have now. Is a Fury over valued for its cost and then the cost of upgrading it to top tier? Probably but it isn't like there are tons of options for the meta.... where they could lower the prices and encourage people to buy more (WOT, LOL) In another time I used to work in online advertising. Some of the outrageous premiums on ad buy's were based around "lifetime customer value"... the problem with using that metric is when you advertise you start to draw in lower value customers... I suspect that this is also part of pix's current problem, they can't grow the base much more without having to pay more than the customers are worth, so were seeing them change the model to a more freemium one in an attempt to extract more value from us. I think, to your point the play they made backfired to a good degree... and now they don't really know what to do.
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Post by zer00eyz on Apr 19, 2017 12:53:35 GMT -5
I refuse to sugarcoating with any words: The current MM really works...for the people who already maxed or at least near maxed. Because the only way to get a "fair" winrate (a winrate that doesn't matched us with much higher opponents even if it's very high), is when we are UP THERE at the peak of food chain. And with that fact, the current MM also really works...for the developer. To be up there, we PAY... A LOT. With a lot of real money (buy and upgrading relevant bots/weaps good enough to compete), and/or with a lot of online time (so the game has deep enough player pool) War Robots is in line on total price of acquisition, and time to grind with other games. The issue they have is that the cost per item is far out of line with other games...
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Post by tsunisterbr on Apr 19, 2017 13:09:54 GMT -5
Bazttle titans is coming and War Robots will fade away Battle Titans has some of the original Walking War Robots developers.. so who cares about War Robots anymore... They burnt their bridge and the fact is this game went from 1.5 million active to less that 400K active.... Just curious, where did you find these numbers?
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Post by tsunisterbr on Apr 19, 2017 13:17:04 GMT -5
I think, to your point the play they made backfired to a good degree... and now they don't really know what to do. zer00eyz, could you elaborate more on that, please?
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[AurL] Valiant
Destrier
Posts: 101
Karma: 53
Pilot name: ValiantSr
Platform: Android
Clan: Aurora Luvenis
League: Diamond
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Griffin
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Post by [AurL] Valiant on Apr 19, 2017 13:17:17 GMT -5
Right now there is 14 Au per match... The rewards I'm suggesting from "regular play" are 8 au (maybe 10 on a 3 way beacon tie)... Doubling that for premium players brings it to 16-20, however that would mean a lot of paying customers, on the recurring revenue stream. Tweeting the "daily rewards" would be awesome as well... but again they are "on par" with other games so Im not sure what the outcome would be there. Sales are interesting, running sales, and running them more and more frequently lets you move a price down over time without pissing off your current customer base.... It is a tool, and could be an immediate cost offset and lure back paying players. More skins would be good. I don't think clan skins would are technically viable. Each of them would need to be added to the client, and be down loaded by everyone --- I don't think you can "side load" them into unity, I don't think you can "side load" them and not be in violation of some app store policies (or skirting them). As for tweaking the daily task it makes more since to me than providing Au for the match reward - any Au for match reward in a system where Au is tight will promote tanking (player needs Au it's easier to get in Silver 1 than Diamond 2 so a tanking they will go) now if we remove that incentive, tie match and daily objective rewards to leagues then where do you go for that Au - either grind it or buy it. Now that said we both seem to agree the cost of items themselves are too high so we look at a re-balance there. Then if we incorporate your idea of additional item levels with smaller steps and shorter research times, dial down the Au cost to speed those up and we have increased the perceived pace of the game while addressing the majority of tanker issues. Throw in the proposed sales and skins, now we have a system were we feel we are constantly progressing (rather than waiting on the upgrade clock), we have more encouragement to play through increased daily tasks, have more encouragement to rise in level through increasing rewards, other avenues to bots/items through sales and more options to individualize our mechs adding to increased investment in the game and all adding to a potentially better revenue stream. Clans wouldn't necessarily get skins - these would be items that could show on your Hanger/match results page (something more then a generic shield) as for showing on the bots it would be more difficult to do yes. As for the skins themselves if we had a set of themed skins for every bot a clan could simply decide to all run the Blue flames skins or the skull skins etc...
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Post by zer00eyz on Apr 19, 2017 13:58:30 GMT -5
I think, to your point the play they made backfired to a good degree... and now they don't really know what to do. zer00eyz , could you elaborate more on that, please? The old system meant that you could build a hanger for a tier and have a high win rate. Win rate = satisfaction, but not so good for the bank account. Now the only way to have a high win rate is to get to champion league... but the costs for War Robots don't match the costs of other mobile games per item (it is closer to WOT per item)... MM keeps you at 50% as an artifact of trying to keep you in relatively the same pool of players... If your going past 50 your advancing and face harder competition only to get beat down, not very satisfying when your skill puts you into a place where you just can't compete... Lets take me for example. After 10 days of playing like almost utter garbage (mostly my fault) and being dealt some fairly bad hands (not my fault) I almost fell out of silver I. I stopped playing like garbage on easter and shot up almost to gold II --- Thats a hefty change in points. However, Im pretty much locked out of top damage right now, and the upgrade plan doesn't leave me a lot to cap beacons with at this level of play. Is it frustrating? Yea it sure is, but at least the matches are "tighter" rank wise than some of the stuff I have seen from MM before (as silver II I got thrown in with diamond players on android). I would like to earn some Au however, and I have little other recourse than to "just wait" for tasks and upgrades to catch up to my current tier or I can figure out how to drop myself back down (oh and re-collect the rewards for promoting at the end of the month)... The interesting thing is Im going to choose the latter option, I want to model 4 slots of griffins in silver and see where that lands me... Not because it is going to earn me gold, or be satisfying, but because I think the data from it will be interesting.
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Post by ewing411 on Apr 19, 2017 14:52:20 GMT -5
<snip> Satisfied players don’t need to make ongoing cash investments! By throwing us all in the same pool, people are experiencing dissatisfaction because there isn’t a path to be a “winner” (Over 50% win rate) without making that investment Deep down I've been hoping that whoever is in charge isn't using "stress" as a foundation for revenue. Going down that rabbit hole will lead to bad game design every single time. A good game with marketable items and/or services is obviously better. Personally I don't care about win rates. If by chance they can be used to maintain competive matches then I think it is a good idea. If it's just an excuse to create gross missmatches then what I wrote above.
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Post by zer00eyz on Apr 19, 2017 15:10:57 GMT -5
<snip> Satisfied players donât need to make ongoing cash investments! By throwing us all in the same pool, people are experiencing dissatisfaction because there isnât a path to be a âwinnerâ (Over 50% win rate) without making that investment Deep down I've been hoping that whoever is in charge isn't using "stress" as a foundation for revenue. Going down that rabbit hole will lead to bad game design every single time. A good game with marketable items and/or services is obviously better. Personally I don't care about win rates. If by chance they can be used to maintain competive matches then I think it is a good idea. If it's just an excuse to create gross missmatches then what I wrote above. MM is ELO like, and this is how it will always work out (math is a 「female dog」). To borrow a saying from business, you will end up promoted to the level of your incompetence. That isn't a stressor but it isn't exactly satisfying is it? The question is why can't MM find better matches? Well, it makes it hard to move points through the system if it does, or you get players in bands inflating and deflating.
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Post by ewing411 on Apr 19, 2017 15:21:38 GMT -5
Finding ways to revitalizie the value of Premium is a great idea. I did the $10 one once in my mid level 20s. It got me about 20 million in spare silver by the end. Okay but not something that got me paticlarly enthused. Now at EXP level 30 looking for 10+ advancements the Premimum package is crap. It doesn't help that fifty percent Ag bonus of a match-stomp is inconsequential spare change for purchases in the millions or even tens of millions. The idea of paying Pix for a terrible experience is anathema.
At EXP level 30 the Ag multiplier really needs some serious buffing.
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Post by ewing411 on Apr 19, 2017 15:38:51 GMT -5
Deep down I've been hoping that whoever is in charge isn't using "stress" as a foundation for revenue. Going down that rabbit hole will lead to bad game design every single time. A good game with marketable items and/or services is obviously better. Personally I don't care about win rates. If by chance they can be used to maintain competive matches then I think it is a good idea. If it's just an excuse to create gross missmatches then what I wrote above. MM is ELO like, and this is how it will always work out (math is a ?female dog?). To borrow a saying from business, you will end up promoted to the level of your incompetence. That isn't a stressor but it isn't exactly satisfying is it? The question is why can't MM find better matches? Well, it makes it hard to move points through the system if it does, or you get players in bands inflating and deflating. If the game environment goes from a less stressful hanger matchmaking to a more stressful one that speaks volumes on the leadership decisions. So the question goes was the move to ELO purely for the sake of matchmaking or intentional because it could create a high stress environment to drive sale? That is what I was trying to get at. In an odd twist the full move to Leagues has improved matchmakimg for me in one regard. In the past I was matched against 12 hangers regularly. Earlier this month it dropped to ocassional 11s and often 10s. That is a major improvement to what is now a mostly 9/9 loadout.
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Post by tsunisterbr on Apr 19, 2017 15:54:33 GMT -5
zer00eyz , could you elaborate more on that, please? The old system meant that you could build a hanger for a tier and have a high win rate. Win rate = satisfaction, but not so good for the bank account. Now the only way to have a high win rate is to get to champion league... but the costs for War Robots don't match the costs of other mobile games per item (it is closer to WOT per item)... MM keeps you at 50% as an artifact of trying to keep you in relatively the same pool of players... If your going past 50 your advancing and face harder competition only to get beat down, not very satisfying when your skill puts you into a place where you just can't compete... Lets take me for example. After 10 days of playing like almost utter garbage (mostly my fault) and being dealt some fairly bad hands (not my fault) I almost fell out of silver I. I stopped playing like garbage on easter and shot up almost to gold II --- Thats a hefty change in points. However, Im pretty much locked out of top damage right now, and the upgrade plan doesn't leave me a lot to cap beacons with at this level of play. Is it frustrating? Yea it sure is, but at least the matches are "tighter" rank wise than some of the stuff I have seen from MM before (as silver II I got thrown in with diamond players on android). I would like to earn some Au however, and I have little other recourse than to "just wait" for tasks and upgrades to catch up to my current tier or I can figure out how to drop myself back down (oh and re-collect the rewards for promoting at the end of the month)... The interesting thing is Im going to choose the latter option, I want to model 4 slots of griffins in silver and see where that lands me... Not because it is going to earn me gold, or be satisfying, but because I think the data from it will be interesting. Thank you for your explanation, but I was referring to your "backfiring" statement!
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Post by zer00eyz on Apr 19, 2017 15:56:58 GMT -5
The old system meant that you could build a hanger for a tier and have a high win rate. Win rate = satisfaction, but not so good for the bank account. Now the only way to have a high win rate is to get to champion league... but the costs for War Robots don't match the costs of other mobile games per item (it is closer to WOT per item)... MM keeps you at 50% as an artifact of trying to keep you in relatively the same pool of players... If your going past 50 your advancing and face harder competition only to get beat down, not very satisfying when your skill puts you into a place where you just can't compete... Lets take me for example. After 10 days of playing like almost utter garbage (mostly my fault) and being dealt some fairly bad hands (not my fault) I almost fell out of silver I. I stopped playing like garbage on easter and shot up almost to gold II --- Thats a hefty change in points. However, Im pretty much locked out of top damage right now, and the upgrade plan doesn't leave me a lot to cap beacons with at this level of play. Is it frustrating? Yea it sure is, but at least the matches are "tighter" rank wise than some of the stuff I have seen from MM before (as silver II I got thrown in with diamond players on android). I would like to earn some Au however, and I have little other recourse than to "just wait" for tasks and upgrades to catch up to my current tier or I can figure out how to drop myself back down (oh and re-collect the rewards for promoting at the end of the month)... The interesting thing is Im going to choose the latter option, I want to model 4 slots of griffins in silver and see where that lands me... Not because it is going to earn me gold, or be satisfying, but because I think the data from it will be interesting. Thank you for your explanation, but I was referring to your "backfiring" statement! Well, everyone around here has been pretty salty about MM, tanking and all the other issues, so I would say in that regard the change wasn't taken well. It isn't a system that can be consistently satisfying till you reach top tier. It, in theory, should generate more revenue for pix but I don't think it is working out that way for them.
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Post by tsunisterbr on Apr 19, 2017 16:23:32 GMT -5
Thank you for your explanation, but I was referring to your "backfiring" statement! Well, everyone around here has been pretty salty about MM, tanking and all the other issues, so I would say in that regard the change wasn't taken well. It isn't a system that can be consistently satisfying till you reach top tier. It, in theory, should generate more revenue for pix but I don't think it is working out that way for them. You think? I don't know, I was doing this same thinking, but after seeing the fact that the game is still highly ranked in both apple and google store, and that its download rate (and reviews) seems to be rather fine, I started to question that. I still think that the more you play, the more you realize the flaws in this game/MM system, but new players have no idea about that. So the hype still spreads
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xj92
Destrier
Posts: 68
Karma: 37
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Post by xj92 on Apr 20, 2017 1:21:30 GMT -5
Well, everyone around here has been pretty salty about MM, tanking and all the other issues, so I would say in that regard the change wasn't taken well. It isn't a system that can be consistently satisfying till you reach top tier. It, in theory, should generate more revenue for pix but I don't think it is working out that way for them. You think? I don't know, I was doing this same thinking, but after seeing the fact that the game is still highly ranked in both apple and google store, and that its download rate (and reviews) seems to be rather fine, I started to question that. I still think that the more you play, the more you realize the flaws in this game/MM system, but new players have no idea about that. So the hype still spreads Why the reviews are good is because of a cheap trick, they ask for a review right at the beginning of the game (like lvl 3-4) and most people put that 5-star because they are impressed for the moment and later on when the frustration kicks in because of match making and other stuff they quit the game but never change the 5-star they chose in the beginning, so all the flaws get kinda "ignored" by that rating and others won't see the "true" review/rating (if you know what where I'm getting at), I mean you think people would complain and leave in droves if the game was a solid 5? No, they wouldn't... But then again we have the 「bum-bum」lickers that praise pixonic for everything they do, mostly new players/noobs, while we who have been playing for a time just see how worse and worse it gets for every update, sure 2 things are great but they break 10 other things to achieve it...
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Post by Firebeard on Apr 20, 2017 2:24:53 GMT -5
You think? I don't know, I was doing this same thinking, but after seeing the fact that the game is still highly ranked in both apple and google store, and that its download rate (and reviews) seems to be rather fine, I started to question that. I still think that the more you play, the more you realize the flaws in this game/MM system, but new players have no idea about that. So the hype still spreads Why the reviews are good is because of a cheap trick, they ask for a review right at the beginning of the game (like lvl 3-4) and most people put that 5-star because they are impressed for the moment and later on when the frustration kicks in because of match making and other stuff they quit the game but never change the 5-star they chose in the beginning, so all the flaws get kinda "ignored" by that rating and others won't see the "true" review/rating (if you know what where I'm getting at), I mean you think people would complain and leave in droves if the game was a solid 5? No, they wouldn't... But then again we have the 「bum-bum」lickers that praise pixonic for everything they do, mostly new players/noobs, while we who have been playing for a time just see how worse and worse it gets for every update, sure 2 things are great but they break 10 other things to achieve it... That's pretty harsh, Dude. It's just human nature to be resistant to change. I like the MM. I don't have to be an entrenched Player to appreciate the new system. I do feel that MM detracts from teamwork in its current form but from what I understand, so did the prior iteration. Remove individual Awards and receive a global Award for Winning - 3 Au/each Pilot. As for the monetary value, I don't see it. I've been playing for 27 days, will have 2 weapons at L12, a 3rd on its way up, bought the new Rogatka and scheme and I've spent a grand total, so far, of $38.50 CAD. War Robots is dirt cheap compared to alot of games. Star Trek: Timelines - $700.00 for a "chance" at a great card .. War Robots - awesome game for an awesome price!
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Post by frunobulax on Apr 20, 2017 6:14:02 GMT -5
Lets take me for example. After 10 days of playing like almost utter garbage (mostly my fault) and being dealt some fairly bad hands (not my fault) I almost fell out of silver I. I stopped playing like garbage on easter and shot up almost to gold II --- Thats a hefty change in points. However, Im pretty much locked out of top damage right now, and the upgrade plan doesn't leave me a lot to cap beacons with at this level of play. In the end, for each hangar and each playing style there is a "fair value" of league cups. I went to a light hangar and dropped 200 points, but then my points stabilized. I went back to my usual hangar, and went up 200 points, but I've been stuck in the middle of gold 3 for some time now. The point is, you can still have a high win rate, if you go for beacons and not for damage. Run light beacon cappers, and you'll end up in the lower half damage wise on both wins and losses. If you average 13-14 points per win and -16 points per loss, you'll end up with a win rate north of 50% (but you get less silver). If you run heavy hitters and go for damage, you'll maybe average 16 points in a win and -13 points per loss, and a sub-50% win rate. But it doesn't have to do anything with skill or the hangar. As for gold there might be not much of a difference, either you get gold for beacons (light hangar) or for damage (heavy hangar). If you have a light hangar and replace light robots with say an Ancilot and a Fury, then you may rise a few hundred points, but in the end you'll suddenly end up with a sub-50% win rate, because you're going for damage and not for beacons. If you have a heavy hangar and buy a Gary and a Stalker, you'll drop like a stone at first but then end up with an over-50% win rate. That makes for the paradox situation that buying the strongest robots will actually drop your win rate long term, unless you're closing in on a 12/12 hangar. And you'll earn less silver if you have a high win rate. Ist this the way it's supposed to be? Of course not, but most players have not yet understood the connection.
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Post by frunobulax on Apr 20, 2017 6:18:54 GMT -5
Well, everyone around here has been pretty salty about MM, tanking and all the other issues, so I would say in that regard the change wasn't taken well. It isn't a system that can be consistently satisfying till you reach top tier. It, in theory, should generate more revenue for pix but I don't think it is working out that way for them. You think? I don't know, I was doing this same thinking, but after seeing the fact that the game is still highly ranked in both apple and google store, and that its download rate (and reviews) seems to be rather fine, I started to question that. I still think that the more you play, the more you realize the flaws in this game/MM system, but new players have no idea about that. So the hype still spreads Players that are near TT level may have a better game experience, as tankers are mostly found in the lower leagues. Some tankers are enjoying the new seal clubbing possibilities very much, others enjoy the LQ. Also, there are some guys proclaiming "the MM is good, but the players are crap". (Apparently they never heard that there is always a percentage of players going greedy, and a smart game design will try to minimize their impact on the game.) So of course there is positive feedback. I just wonder if player growth has slowed down or if player numbers may have actually dropped. From some of my matches it certainly feels that way. being drawn into matches with guys 3 leagues above and below me.
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Post by frunobulax on Apr 20, 2017 6:25:13 GMT -5
As for the monetary value, I don't see it. I've been playing for 27 days, will have 2 weapons at L12, a 3rd on its way up, bought the new Rogatka and scheme and I've spent a grand total, so far, of $38.50 CAD. War Robots is dirt cheap compared to alot of games. Star Trek: Timelines - $700.00 for a "chance" at a great card .. War Robots - awesome game for an awesome price! Unless you buy a TT hangar, you can't "buy" great matches. 90% of my matches are determined by the number of tankers, that is, has my team more tankers than the other team. Many matches are 6vs3 after 2-3 minutes. So why play the game? Grinding for money is not enough incentive in the long run. Unless you find a way to magically manufacture yourself a 12/12 hangar, that's what you're heading for once you leave bronze league, as it dominates silver and gold leagues (on Android). I found the heart to play a bit yesterday, as my premium runs out in 48hours. There were less crappy games, but the "good" games (6vs6) made up at most 50% of the games. Even on the moon map players bailed out quickly, instead of exploring a map that got introduced just a few hours ago. This morning, 2 games, 2 tanker squads that left after 2 minutes, one game was over after 3 minutes because only two red players cared to move from the spawn point.
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Post by Firebeard on Apr 20, 2017 9:54:35 GMT -5
As for the monetary value, I don't see it. I've been playing for 27 days, will have 2 weapons at L12, a 3rd on its way up, bought the new Rogatka and scheme and I've spent a grand total, so far, of $38.50 CAD. War Robots is dirt cheap compared to alot of games. Star Trek: Timelines - $700.00 for a "chance" at a great card .. War Robots - awesome game for an awesome price! Unless you buy a TT hangar, you can't "buy" great matches. 90% of my matches are determined by the number of tankers, that is, has my team more tankers than the other team. Many matches are 6vs3 after 2-3 minutes. So why play the game? Grinding for money is not enough incentive in the long run. Unless you find a way to magically manufacture yourself a 12/12 hangar, that's what you're heading for once you leave bronze league, as it dominates silver and gold leagues (on Android). I found the heart to play a bit yesterday, as my premium runs out in 48hours. There were less crappy games, but the "good" games (6vs6) made up at most 50% of the games. Even on the moon map players bailed out quickly, instead of exploring a map that got introduced just a few hours ago. This morning, 2 games, 2 tanker squads that left after 2 minutes, one game was over after 3 minutes because only two red players cared to move from the spawn point. I think it depends on the perspective you have when playing. I go in expecting to run Support with Beacons as targets of opportunity. If we Lose, I don't blame the MM, I blame the Team. Yes, sometimes we're out classed and Loss is unavoidable but if we don't take down at least one Opponent and claim 2 Beacons, we failed. I measure Win/Loss by way of achievement .. Regardless, the MM does not convey a "Team-spirit," and this is what would change the dynamic. Not monetarily or more Awards.
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