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Post by Adazahi on Jan 9, 2023 21:43:16 GMT -5
Seriously though, this is quite a bit of powercreep. The way I understood it, in MA, all bots should roughly compete with each other. Why is this new guy screaming "REPLACE YOUR ARES!!!!"? The previous releases have been strong, but not a direct upgrade from an already existant bot. One of the best defenses I give MA over War Robots is that it provides you with some incredibly solid endgame bots within the first few hours of playing (Panther and Killshot) but seeing that Killshot is powercrept by Surge and Ares by Bastion, I think Panther may be next... EDIT: Something I missed to add to bastion's side is that the cooldown begins after the shield breaks rather than after the EMP ends, which is not the case for Zephyr or even Surge's EMP.
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Post by S1E1 on Jan 10, 2023 0:01:16 GMT -5
Yeah, it's unbalanced. Stalker is still the OP mech of the game. It's absurd how quick you can kill off an opponent with right implants.
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Post by Koalabear on Jan 10, 2023 14:56:35 GMT -5
Yeah, it's unbalanced. Stalker is still the OP mech of the game. It's absurd how quick you can kill off an opponent with right implants. That's good to hear! I'm still slowly leveling my Stalker and hope to max it soon one day. I have Myna ready to be it's pilot and I have the gold AT range implant. Not sure what other implants I have for Stalker, but we'll see when I get there.
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Post by S1E1 on Jan 10, 2023 22:36:47 GMT -5
Yeah, it's unbalanced. Stalker is still the OP mech of the game. It's absurd how quick you can kill off an opponent with right implants. That's good to hear! I'm still slowly leveling my Stalker and hope to max it soon one day. I have Myna ready to be it's pilot and I have the gold AT range implant. Not sure what other implants I have for Stalker, but we'll see when I get there. With the gold range implant it should be able to rack up some really good killstreaks. DL12s are all-round probably the best weapons for Stalker, but they can't quite rack up as many kills as an AT12 Stalker when it really gets going. Also the ATs seem way way better for FFA. I first tried DLs but they just are too slow. Made a huge difference when I switched.
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Post by Redfiend on Jan 11, 2023 10:31:03 GMT -5
You have to remember that the current top dogs are all paid content. The F2P/freemium method of obtaining anything after Surge's release are nearly non-existent. F2P players and pocket change players have a long way before even thinking about endgame. The saving grace is that AI are still a thing, so players aren't thrown directly into the pit. If it's attainable with in game currency, it is going to get power crept. Like how no one complains Juggernaut, Paragon, and Lancer are niche, at best, but have been pretty pointless since jump. If it would have been over a year of resource accumulation to even obtain the thing, even if it was fair, and another 6 months to upgrade it, it really doesn't matter what it is at this point, the average player has zero real access to it. We can only hope newer players aren't getting shredded. Any hangar of R6 mechs, trivializes the AI. Everything can only be upgraded for one go round (I quit the moment MK crap comes around). The AI has Miniguns and EM rifles in FFA, but everything is R4. Their pilots are pretty stupid though. The silver lining, is that the new weapons and mechs, will be the defacto "spend here" things for new players that are putting money in. Experiment at one's own peril. The miniguns and EM rifles filling so many energy spots, and the new standard set by Surge, Orion, Redeemer, Stalker, Bastion, Tengu and Gatecrasher, are the current bar. It's sunken cost fallacy for everyone that's been grinding since beta. Edit: What I'm saying, is that for those of you at the end of the EXP track, you will CONSTANTLY be bombarded by the TOP of whatever is released at max level, immediately, with the whales, whereas the MM is EXP based for the first year, 6 months with season passes. You guys are getting trashed because the new "top" falls on you like a hammer the moment it's released. Meanwhile, the sales all revolve around rank 3-4 equipment. The current matchmaker and division system, has you guys sitting at the tip top of the matchmaker, fighting the maxed AI pool, and the other people that had everything maxed and literally hundreds of thousands of coins saved up before global release. It is what War Robots did to AU when releasing Dash Era mechs, but with a guaranteed R5 item for $100 from the get go, instead of the thousands of dollars of sink on the original War Robots black market. To be real, to be honest, I'd say coast, and stop spending. Take a break. Start fresh if you decide to come back. As it stands, you're playing catch up with people like Mayer.
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Post by S1E1 on Jan 11, 2023 16:27:21 GMT -5
Redfiend - Adding some thoughts to what you're saying. I'm at 6200sp but interestingly while I get matches against some of the 6700+ players, it's less often and usually not the top skilled. At the high levels, MM does a pretty good job of separating folks out, and frankly even if I am going up against the newest gear, I really only feel stomped when my AI becomes completely incompetent. The only exception lies in tankers, where folks have the most meta maxed gear on three mechs and two weak ones they never run. Unfortunately MM is now vulnerable to this strategy but it still requires a skilled player to really do well with it. If this was last year, I'd have disagreed and say low spenders can still climb the ranks as long as they only focus on tournament meta builds. This game releases a decent amount of content that isn't worth buying aside from experimentation/fun and very few builds really dominate in tournament. I spent basically the whole of last year only focusing on those and climbed from high-4000s I think to what I have now. At the higher levels, implant scrap starts becoming an issue - it's best priced at 99¢ per 5K but it does add up. But there are a couple of things that have happened now that might have a big enough impact on the game economy to end that strategy (always in Dec/January they do this). One, there definitely seems to have been a soft nerf last month of Rocket Mortars, diminishing their damage radius. While we all kind of hate RMs, they were the main way for f2p-ish players to earn in tourney. I basically built most of my hangar on the back of my RM Killy. Now that path is less viable for newer players and the replacements do mostly require spending $ to first buy the gear. FFA may be the second big issue, although it's early and I'm not totally sure how it'll shake out. But from my experiences yesterday I noticed that a decent amount of my meta tourney gear wasn't the best for FFA, particularly Disc Launchers which unload too slow. And while some other players were reporting success with EMRs, I kept finding that my opponents were too close and my Railguns (which many new players have skipped getting) did better. Some of the other weapons that seem to do well are all ones I haven't finished levelling because of my old 5v5 strategy - SG8s, MR12s, maybe VRPG16. And while I did well with Surge and Killy, I have a feeling this mode will favor tanks. With tournament now alternating between TDM and FFA, it does seem like folks might have to focus on upgrading two separate hangars to earn A-Coins, which could kill off low spenders advancing entirely. But I have to play FFA a lot more to be sure. A lot of gear holds its value for a pretty long time in this game. There's a good chance there will be enough overlap and variety among the new maps that folks can make it work. Overall, the game economy is on a serious decline (forgot to mention the removal of the implant discount) and this might be the final nails in the coffin for lower spenders. F2p was frankly dead already and given the lack of ads, there is some sense in requiring players to pay a little something. I am not going to coast though just yet. I was expecting a disheartening turn on game economics.in the winter. I have ended up taking breaks from the game the previous two Januaries due to similar changes (usually accompanied by MM getting really cranked up in difficulty for a few weeks). But after a bit of an adjustment, I've found I can still make it work. We'll see how it shakes out this time around. FYI, at the higher end the AI in FFA is way harsher. It's all R6/max and they are mostly all sporting meta weapons and mechs. Guess that is the substitute for cranking up the MM in previous years.
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Post by salvia on Jan 12, 2023 9:12:05 GMT -5
Interesting discussion going on.
I wondered if FFA changed the best way to future-proof one's hangar - all modes considered, but off the top of my head, it seems the avenues to this end remain the same :
* 32 EN mechs and 16 EN weapons That's Guardian/Panther/Gatecrasher, paired with DL16 and EM16 (or RG16 for close encounters).
* Damage-enhancing 24 EN mechs and 12 EN burst weapons This means Stalker and Orion, combined with AT12 especially (not convinced of the MR12's utility to engage several enemies in a row). Honourable mention to SG8, which after the buff is equivalent to an SG10.
Some other mechs can provide a situational advantage (including Zephyr, Surge, Aegis for CPC, etc.) but, if we posit that firepower is the best parameter to determine future-proofing, they shouldn't be prioritised.
What are you guys thoughts ?
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Post by Koalabear on Jan 12, 2023 13:21:36 GMT -5
I think FFA is showing the best builds for the fastest kills. While fastest kill builds will rock in any mode, there's still certain situations where other builds will shine in certain modes. I think F2P players will still be ok as long as they stick to those builds and play to their strengths.
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Post by S1E1 on Jan 12, 2023 22:05:31 GMT -5
I think you're generally right salvia but I do see a longer term potential for hangar divergence between 5v5 and FFA. Particularly in terms of 32EN mechs. The need for high health and fast kills means any new improved heavy mechs will be highly sought after. So far I've only played the first map on two days, so I plan to hold on any major judgement for a while until I get familiar with all the maps. But on this map I was a bit underwhelmed on Panther which is a 5v5 staple. It worked sometimes, but with so many AI swarming (especially Surges & Killshot) the fence wasn't much help. The higher HP of Guardian was better. I also kept unequipping my DL16s. I found the 12s worked on my Killy because it was so maneuverable, but the 16s took too long to whittle down an enemy. Thise are a 5v5 staple and point to the big potential difference between the modes. In 5v5 the meta is driven partly by racking up kills fast of weaker AI and partly by trying to hold off strong human players. In FFA it seems all about dealing with fast, strong AI instead. That's why likely Bastion will be a big FFA meta mech, even though the word is that it's not that good for 5v5. Other differences might be Orion, Tengu, and Redeemer. Orion and Tengu are viable mechs for tournament but they are both optional. Looks like they both could be true meta for FFA though. Redeemer on the other hand is the new meta mech for top end 5v5 players, but it seems less suited for FFA, certainly not the big open map. I'm also wondering a bit about Juggernaut. That might make a comeback too.
Oh and of course, Rocket Mortars don't seem useful for FFA.
Still overall I think you're right when you said both modes generally favor speed, HP and high, instant firepower. So there should be a lot of overlap. FYI, I have seen a couple vids of folks playing MRs and getting results. I too am a bit skeptical but here's a good one:
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Post by S1E1 on Jan 12, 2023 22:10:59 GMT -5
I think FFA is showing the best builds for the fastest kills. While fastest kill builds will rock in any mode, there's still certain situations where other builds will shine in certain modes. I think F2P players will still be ok as long as they stick to those builds and play to their strengths. Hey, I'm curious - did you try out Paragon in FFA at all? I was kinda surprised by how PITA the AI Paragons were. Admittedly, they were maxed with maxed Legendary pilots boosting their health and weapons, and have AI-level accuracy, but Paragons do have 14k more health than Panthers. Mine's stuck at R5.5, but I know yours is maxed. Any luck with it?
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Post by Koalabear on Jan 13, 2023 8:47:43 GMT -5
I think FFA is showing the best builds for the fastest kills. While fastest kill builds will rock in any mode, there's still certain situations where other builds will shine in certain modes. I think F2P players will still be ok as long as they stick to those builds and play to their strengths. Hey, I'm curious - did you try out Paragon in FFA at all? I was kinda surprised by how PITA the AI Paragons were. Admittedly, they were maxed with maxed Legendary pilots boosting their health and weapons, and have AI-level accuracy, but Paragons do have 14k more health than Panthers. Mine's stuck at R5.5, but I know yours is maxed. Any luck with it? Actually, TBH, my Paragon is my best mech for FFA. It's loaded with DL16 and the Epic pilot. Basically, I put my back against a wall and wait for mechs to come close and start firing before they round the corner. The slower DPS of the DL16 is offset by this tactic as my target is usually crippled by the time they can shoot back. Of course, I don't last long even like this due to AT12 Surges and EMR builds but it works. I suppose this tactic would work just as well if not better with Panther. My Panther has been my second best mech, and again, I say this with a heaping spoonful of salt, but I do get some chains with it. It's got GB16 and I go for the mid range kills that are fighting other AI bots. Basically, I'll fire at a red square, if I get a hit I keep firing. If I don't, I move on. FFA is so freaking fast that I have to do this fast too. My RG16 Guardian has been difficult because since everything happens so fast, I can't aim as well and actually miss a lot and a miss usually means dead mech in FFA. Even my SG8 Surge hasn't done well because of all the Surges and Zephyrs in FFA. You will almost always lose against them. My Ares does ok but not well either with AT12. I've given up on FFA for now. I've switched my hangar so that I can work on leveling my 3 new pilots, Stefania, Myna and Archangel. I was going to wait for the implant removal discount and put Stefania on my Paragon for the DL16, but since that's not coming anytime soon, I've decided to go full bore with Stefania on my Shadow with JR8. This has reinvigorated my love of this mech! My next mech leveling project is Stalker. It's only at 6.4 right now so only 20EN, so I have AT12/6 on it. It's been a bit disappointing but that's because of the AT6. I wish the last EN spike wasn't from 20 to 24. I wish there was 22 in there so that I could have at least put AT12/10 together. A quick word about the Stalker vs Ares though. I really need to learn how to run the Stalker properly. I've been running it like I would the Ares and that just doesn't work. With the Ares, I can bulldoze my way through reds but with the Stalker, I have to wait and ambush them one at a time.
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Post by S1E1 on Jan 13, 2023 17:44:53 GMT -5
Koalabear - That's cool to hear on Paragon. I could definitely see that with its dash of speed that it could be good working the corners with DL16s. It's only like 1875 AC for me to take mine to R6, but like 1.4M credits to max it. That's the hold up there, but I think I'll bump it up on my list. I have started dropping Guardian RG16 as my first mech and I recommend trying that. The first mech often goes down fast because several AI will spawn nearby but between the ability and unloading the RGs close-up, I find it's a good one to get a couple kills at least to start. And if it dies fast, then it's not your best mech, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I have been running Stalker AT10s and it is solid. I actually tried splitting my AT10s and 12s between it and my Surge a couple times but I found it was better to keep the 12s on my Surge. Between its high HP and damage boosting ability, Stalker lasts long enough that the 10s work fine while my Surge really needs those 12s. And it took me a while to get the hang of Stalker too. It is an ambush peekaboo mech although what you're looking to do is get a concentration of enemy and mow them all down 4/5 at a time with the ability. But that's in CPC more - in FFA it's just all flying at you so fast. I am trying to grind it out on FFA. It's really annoying that you can't access the maps in custom games to figure out how they fit together. But I am hoping after a bit I'll adjust. And I'm watching YT vids to see what the maxed crowd is doing. FFA seems pretty hard to get a good handle on though. So many different types of AI that you can't get an easy feel for how much damage it takes to kill them or for them to kill you. And trying to consistently spawn in a location is a problem too. Right now I am treating it like grinding for 1st in Grandmaster. Expect to play more games and care less about winning matches than just accumulating points overall. Emotionally distance myself from the results of any particular match. Taking a day off was good for calming down the bracket chase. Hopefully soon the novelty will die down and folks will settle into a rhythm on how many points they grind for. Until then, I am just burning extra tickets. I need my A-Coins, dangnabit!
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Post by reconnecting on Jan 14, 2023 16:05:44 GMT -5
I played FFA just once yesterday to get two yellow keys for tournament. While I am getting better in ffa I don't really like the chaos. I put RG16s on Panther and that works. Plus Ares with AT12s is good. And AT10s are on Stalker.
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