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Post by options1986 on Apr 5, 2017 9:57:52 GMT -5
I would like to add penetration % on his damage (both on energy and physical shield)... something between 50-70% of the damage would be interesting. It's max damage is roughly 12k so a 3xKang Fury would inflict something between 18k and 25k of unavoidable damage.
It would be a decent but not OP counter to any britbot and Ancilot
What do you think about?
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Post by gr3ygh05t on Apr 5, 2017 10:53:50 GMT -5
You don't need to buff the Kang dae. You just need to replace them with tridents.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Apr 5, 2017 11:03:24 GMT -5
IF a buff was possible... going by what you offered, I would not want it to go through Anciles. They stop physical munitions, period. No way to feasibly fit a cannon penetrating the Ancile into the plot line, so to speak.
BUT, that said, armor penetrating rounds exist in real life... I could possibly handle the KD doing the majority of its damage to the physical shield but having a penetrating round continue on to the bot, doing, at most, 25% damage to the bot itself. But event that I would not say I endorse.
Shields are there for a reason. They are on Au and WSP bots for a reason. You should have to strive to get them, and they should perform as intended once you do have them. Otherwise... what's the point?
The only real buff to the KD that would make it relevant without breaking the balance, is to give it enough damage boost to bring it's DPM up so that it is either equal to or better than the Nashorn's.
JMO, YMMV.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2017 11:20:49 GMT -5
I would like to see the high velocity, antitank-like weapons be able to wreck physical shields. Something like an additional 25%-50% damage to the shield portion. This would give some less popular weapons some more play against the seemingly-endless horde of Britbots that are currently being fielded.
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Post by Cdr. Crimmins on Apr 5, 2017 11:22:59 GMT -5
You don't need to buff the Kang dae. You just need to replace them with tridents. Not heeeeeelping.....
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Post by llama4president on Apr 5, 2017 13:43:03 GMT -5
Personally i do think that Both the Kang Dae and the Nashorns will be reworked in the future months.
Nashorn and Kang Dae are strange weapons, that share most of their behaviour, being almost redundant.
Nashorn has less Alpha damage, but higher RoF, Kang Dae has more Alpha, but with low RoF.
I do think that both weapons must be reworked to make em good to be used. Right now, there is no incentive, being totally, and i mean not barely, but massively outperformed by Tridents and Trebuchets.
Trebuchets has awesome Alpha damage, and can have awesome RoF at the same time. Tridents has much lower range, but incredible damage, RoF and the best splash in the game.
Your idea of differentiating the Kang Dae mechanics from the Nashorn is a good idea. Not really sure if it could ever see light inside the game, as many have mentioned, physical shields are the Incentive to buy those Au Mechs.
Higher RoF is excluded from the equation, they are slow weapons, you could tweak maybe by some 10-20% the RoF, but they would still be too similar to what they are now.
For me, both the weapons need their projectile speed to be increased, to increase accuracy on long range a little further.
And need a buff on Damage. Right now you can ignore sustained fire of a Nashorn, even if it has better RoF, and the Kang Dae is just... a shade of a trebuchet.
Instead of making Kang Dae bypass the shields with %, i would associate a 2x modifier of damage vs shields only (Base damage 1x vs Mechs, 2x vs shields). Like it is very strong to counter them. That would make it "unique" while still leaving the advantage of shields there.
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Ferro Magnus
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Post by Ferro Magnus on Apr 5, 2017 23:20:46 GMT -5
I would like to add penetration % on his damage (both on energy and physical shield)... something between 50-70% of the damage would be interesting. It's max damage is roughly 12k so a 3xKang Fury would inflict something between 18k and 25k of unavoidable damage. It would be a decent but not OP counter to any britbot and Ancilot What do you think about? I had this same idea (save ancile penetration) for a while now, glad to see other people are thinking this same way, and it makes sense in a way, wouldn't high velocity equal greater penetration? It wouldn't be super OP imo, but would make Kang relevant among snipers, Nash has highest DPM, and Treb penetrates energy shielding, so why can't Kang penetrate physical shielding, shield bots are extremely prevelant and snipers can't touch them, whereas there are both mid range options and close range options for penetrating both energy and physical shielding.
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Post by options1986 on Apr 6, 2017 3:25:40 GMT -5
IF a buff was possible... going by what you offered, I would not want it to go through Anciles. They stop physical munitions, period. No way to feasibly fit a cannon penetrating the Ancile into the plot line, so to speak. BUT, that said, armor penetrating rounds exist in real life... I could possibly handle the KD doing the majority of its damage to the physical shield but having a penetrating round continue on to the bot, doing, at most, 25% damage to the bot itself. But event that I would not say I endorse. Shields are there for a reason. They are on Au and WSP bots for a reason. You should have to strive to get them, and they should perform as intended once you do have them. Otherwise... what's the point? The only real buff to the KD that would make it relevant without breaking the balance, is to give it enough damage boost to bring it's DPM up so that it is either equal to or better than the Nashorn's. JMO, YMMV. If the damage is that low I don't see how it's OP. With an avarage of 20k per shot (and the long KD cooldown) it wouldn't be so imbalancing against shielded one's. The galahad has 120k and can be destroyed by 2 tridend volley....
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Post by options1986 on Apr 6, 2017 3:42:13 GMT -5
And need a buff on Damage. Right now you can ignore sustained fire of a Nashorn, even if it has better RoF, and the Kang Dae is just... a shade of a trebuchet. Instead of making Kang Dae bypass the shields with %, i would associate a 2x modifier of damage vs shields only (Base damage 1x vs Mechs, 2x vs shields). Like it is very strong to counter them. That would make it "unique" while still leaving the advantage of shields there. I don't think anyone should use them either if the buff is only against shields... The buff should reward you with some damage also
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Post by carnage on Apr 6, 2017 6:46:55 GMT -5
I don't think the Kwk (Nashorn) needs a buff, at all. It is already very close to a Trebuchet as it is currently.
Kang Dae would definitely needs a buff. And IMO :
* Shield-piercing would be an awesome feature. I don't think it is technically possible for Pix to make it though. * Reload is ridiculously bad. 15 seconds when the Nashorn is 9. Make it 12. * Buff the damage.
Then it would become a bit more viable.
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Post by Prowler on Apr 6, 2017 7:11:55 GMT -5
Improve DPS/DPM and maybe a damage tweak +20% close range +10% mid range its kinetic after all.
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Post by options1986 on Apr 6, 2017 9:51:54 GMT -5
I don't think the Kwk (Nashorn) needs a buff, at all. It is already very close to a Trebuchet as it is currently. Kang Dae would definitely needs a buff. And IMO : * Shield-piercing would be an awesome feature. I don't think it is technically possible for Pix to make it though. * Reload is ridiculously bad. 15 seconds when the Nashorn is 9. Make it 12. * Buff the damage. Then it would become a bit more viable. I think it's technically possible. They already assign the damage to both shield and Robot with rockets and make energy bypass energy shield...
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Ferro Magnus
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Post by Ferro Magnus on Apr 6, 2017 12:14:29 GMT -5
And my argument against all the people saying it needs a damage buff or a faster reload, there's only two ways you could legitametly do such, either having it match, or exceed the DPM of Nash, in both cases rendering Nashorn pointless, and by what Pix has stated they want all weapons to have a place in the game, the ONLY way to make the Kang relevant would to give it a special ability/effect, physical shield penetration really is the obvious candidate for a Kang buff.
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lordofthesalt
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Post by lordofthesalt on Apr 9, 2017 3:02:35 GMT -5
The Kang Date does have a niche, it's for impatient people. You see, much like the new machine guns, a Nashorn requires you to keep whaling on one person to build up damage. However, the one advantage Kang Date has is all that damage is in one shot. This can allow you to juggle targets and switch between enemies based on remaining health. Other than that it's not much better.
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Post by carnage on Apr 9, 2017 3:47:42 GMT -5
And my argument against all the people saying it needs a damage buff or a faster reload, there's only two ways you could legitametly do such, either having it match, or exceed the DPM of Nash, in both cases rendering Nashorn pointless, and by what Pix has stated they want all weapons to have a place in the game, the ONLY way to make the Kang relevant would to give it a special ability/effect, physical shield penetration really is the obvious candidate for a Kang buff. I agree it would be a nice addition, but would not be enough to really justify the acquisition and leveling of that weapon anyway.
Cool, you get through shields. You still have to wait forever to take a shot (and if you aim at shields, good luck since they are also some of the fastest robots in the game... in 15s your target is long time gone), and even when you connect, damage would be very limited anyway.
To really make this weapon viable, you'd need more than just the piercing ability. A more reasonnable cooldown (12 instead of 15) and buff in damage would be necessary IMO.
As it stands, the Kang Dae is probably the most useless weapon in the game.
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Ferro Magnus
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Post by Ferro Magnus on Apr 9, 2017 11:10:39 GMT -5
And my argument against all the people saying it needs a damage buff or a faster reload, there's only two ways you could legitametly do such, either having it match, or exceed the DPM of Nash, in both cases rendering Nashorn pointless, and by what Pix has stated they want all weapons to have a place in the game, the ONLY way to make the Kang relevant would to give it a special ability/effect, physical shield penetration really is the obvious candidate for a Kang buff. I agree it would be a nice addition, but would not be enough to really justify the acquisition and leveling of that weapon anyway.
Cool, you get through shields. You still have to wait forever to take a shot (and if you aim at shields, good luck since they are also some of the fastest robots in the game... in 15s your target is long time gone), and even when you connect, damage would be very limited anyway.
To really make this weapon viable, you'd need more than just the piercing ability. A more reasonnable cooldown (12 instead of 15) and buff in damage would be necessary IMO.
As it stands, the Kang Dae is probably the most useless weapon in the game.
9 second reload at 9,107 damage per shot 54,642 [6 rounds] [3 seconds left on reload] Nashorn 15 second reload at 11,953 damage per shot 47,812 [4 rounds] [exact 4 shots] Kang Dae And now here's why decreased reload time and buffed damage won't work 12 second reload at 11,953 damage per shot 59,765 [5 rounds] [exact 5 shots] Kang Dae (decreased reload) And that's without even buffing the damage, it would render the Nashorn pointless, for example, lets go ahead and slap 1k extra damage on the max damage and take the damage per minute up to 64,765, then, let's give it physical shield piercing ability and basically make all other sniper guns obsolete In case it wasn't obvious enough buffing damage and decreasing reload speed is a bad idea, give it the ability to pierce physical shields at 100% damage, don't decrease the damage it deals by piercing, all close range anti shield and mid range anti shield weapons deal 100% to the bot so why shouldn't a long range anti shield weapon.
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Post by carnage on Apr 9, 2017 13:25:52 GMT -5
Your calculation doesn't work, it would take 54 seconds for the Kwk to shot 6 times, versus 60 seconds for the Kang Dae to shot 5 times.
If you want to compare at even field, then compare 4 Kwk shots to 3 Kang Dae shots. Both would do that in 36 seconds.
That situation would give you 36'428 damage for Kwk versus 35'859 for Kang Dae.
The Kang Dae piercing ability would then gives a little advantage to the Kang Dae, which would make sense considering it requires an additional investment.
I agree though that in light of those numbers, a buff in damage is very arguable. I gave this idea without doing calculation, but it really depends if you want the KD to be slightly superior or not to the Kwk. A 5% buff may be acceptable in the first case, but I agree it is very arguable.
Still, even after looking at the numbers, a 12s cool down with piercing ability definitely make sense here.
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Ferro Magnus
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Post by Ferro Magnus on Apr 9, 2017 13:32:42 GMT -5
Your calculation doesn't work, it would take 54 seconds for the Kwk to shot 6 times, versus 60 seconds for the Kang Dae to shot 5 times. If you want to compare at even field, then compare 4 Kwk shots to 3 Kang Dae shots. Both would do that in 36 seconds. That situation would give you 36'428 damage for Kwk versus 35'859 for Kang Dae. Which means Kwk is still better as it does more damage in less shots. For a sniping weapon, it is a real advantage. The Kang Dae piercing ability would then balance for that situation. Makes sense. I agree though that in light of those numbers, a buff in damage is very arguable. It depends if you want the Kang Dae to be a little bit better than Kwk (which could make sense considering it is an investment to switch to Kang Dae), or if you want to keep them even. I think a 5% buff could be fine, but can understand it is a matter of opinion here. One thing for sure, even after looking at numbers, a 12s cool down with piercing ability definitely make sense here. One would have an advantage in damage per shot, the other one would balance with piercing ability. Seems to make a lot of sense. Fair enough, tried to get a raw DPS number for KwK since it doesn't match perfectly to 60 seconds but decided to write it instead from a "practical" standpoint of just how much it could spit out in under a minute, the number came out to something like 66k something or another with an endless string of 3s
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Post by 16romeo on Apr 21, 2017 8:07:45 GMT -5
IF a buff was possible... going by what you offered, I would not want it to go through Anciles. They stop physical munitions, period. No way to feasibly fit a cannon penetrating the Ancile into the plot line, so to speak. BUT, that said, armor penetrating rounds exist in real life... I could possibly handle the KD doing the majority of its damage to the physical shield but having a penetrating round continue on to the bot, doing, at most, 25% damage to the bot itself. But event that I would not say I endorse. Shields are there for a reason. They are on Au and WSP bots for a reason. You should have to strive to get them, and they should perform as intended once you do have them. Otherwise... what's the point? The only real buff to the KD that would make it relevant without breaking the balance, is to give it enough damage boost to bring it's DPM up so that it is either equal to or better than the Nashorn's. JMO, YMMV. I think you are right about shields. However, what I would like to see, being someone who has been in artillery, is take off the close range negative. The Kang Dae has a long reload anyway, you should be able to use it close range- with accuracy. My system in the service was for shooting down aircraft, but could I use it close in? Yes.
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Post by 16romeo on Apr 21, 2017 8:28:18 GMT -5
IF a buff was possible... going by what you offered, I would not want it to go through Anciles. They stop physical munitions, period. No way to feasibly fit a cannon penetrating the Ancile into the plot line, so to speak. BUT, that said, armor penetrating rounds exist in real life... I could possibly handle the KD doing the majority of its damage to the physical shield but having a penetrating round continue on to the bot, doing, at most, 25% damage to the bot itself. But event that I would not say I endorse. Shields are there for a reason. They are on Au and WSP bots for a reason. You should have to strive to get them, and they should perform as intended once you do have them. Otherwise... what's the point? The only real buff to the KD that would make it relevant without breaking the balance, is to give it enough damage boost to bring it's DPM up so that it is either equal to or better than the Nashorn's. JMO, YMMV. I think you are right about shields. However, what I would like to see, being someone who has been in artillery, is take off the close range negative. The Kang Dae has a long reload anyway, you should be able to use it close range- with accuracy. My system in the service was for shooting down aircraft, but could I use it close in? Yes. Also, anciles are a dig at poor man weapons, i.e. Punishers, Molots, Nashorns etc... it doesn't make sense scientifically that an energy shield stops physical rounds, wouldn't it stop energy weapons? But I wouldn't change game mechanics for that reason. That is what keeps you getting better weapons.
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Post by carnage on Apr 21, 2017 8:39:44 GMT -5
I think you are right about shields. However, what I would like to see, being someone who has been in artillery, is take off the close range negative. The Kang Dae has a long reload anyway, you should be able to use it close range- with accuracy. My system in the service was for shooting down aircraft, but could I use it close in? Yes. Also, anciles are a dig at poor man weapons, i.e. Punishers, Molots, Nashorns etc... it doesn't make sense scientifically that an energy shield stops physical rounds, wouldn't it stop energy weapons? But I wouldn't change game mechanics for that reason. That is what keeps you getting better weapons. Ha ha !! That is a very good question that I often wondered myself.
But anyway, realism is not really the strongest point of War Robot. Shielded bots are not really realistic to start with, I mean, Rhino or Lancelot with a fixed shield, yeah... but Gareths/Galahads with a mobile shield... meh.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Apr 21, 2017 9:05:52 GMT -5
I think you are right about shields. However, what I would like to see, being someone who has been in artillery, is take off the close range negative. The Kang Dae has a long reload anyway, you should be able to use it close range- with accuracy. My system in the service was for shooting down aircraft, but could I use it close in? Yes. Also, anciles are a dig at poor man weapons, i.e. Punishers, Molots, Nashorns etc... it doesn't make sense scientifically that an energy shield stops physical rounds, wouldn't it stop energy weapons? But I wouldn't change game mechanics for that reason. That is what keeps you getting better weapons. I think of it like an energy field that is solidifying the molecules that are energized. It takes power to do this, which is why it is drained if you keep hitting it. Energy weapons would not be as solid so the physical aspects are not the same. In my mind, if there was such a thing in reality, it could be tuned to stop energy too... but I see why War Robots doesn't have that. But, it doesn't matter really lol... it IS just a game. My point was that there is an absolute Rock, Paper, Scissors aspect to the game. And Physical shield bots have their counter in tridents and other splash weapons, whereas Ancile shield bots are weak to Plasma. Making a weapon that skews that paradigm will skew the whole concept of simplicity in counters that has made this game so great, in my opinion. The balance of counters to strengths that we have, is a good one.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Apr 21, 2017 9:08:34 GMT -5
IF a buff was possible... going by what you offered, I would not want it to go through Anciles. They stop physical munitions, period. No way to feasibly fit a cannon penetrating the Ancile into the plot line, so to speak. BUT, that said, armor penetrating rounds exist in real life... I could possibly handle the KD doing the majority of its damage to the physical shield but having a penetrating round continue on to the bot, doing, at most, 25% damage to the bot itself. But event that I would not say I endorse. Shields are there for a reason. They are on Au and WSP bots for a reason. You should have to strive to get them, and they should perform as intended once you do have them. Otherwise... what's the point? The only real buff to the KD that would make it relevant without breaking the balance, is to give it enough damage boost to bring it's DPM up so that it is either equal to or better than the Nashorn's. JMO, YMMV. I think you are right about shields. However, what I would like to see, being someone who has been in artillery, is take off the close range negative. The Kang Dae has a long reload anyway, you should be able to use it close range- with accuracy. My system in the service was for shooting down aircraft, but could I use it close in? Yes. That is a good point... but are you manually aiming that or do you have computer controlled target acquisition for that system? The hard part in War Robots when using a KD/Nashorn is keeping up with the target and leading the shot if they are fast and mobile and/or circling you at close range. If you hit them it is still just as effective.
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Post by hyderier on Apr 21, 2017 9:11:15 GMT -5
Kang Dae could just simply penetrate Anciles (no damage to shield, the shield would just not react to it, too fast rail gun bullet or whatever) and physical shields (damage to shield) and bots (damage to bot).
Considering the rate of fire and DPM, it wouldn't be OP at all, it would just make it a viable weapon. Now it is basically useless, either Nashorn or Trebuchet is better for every niche.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Apr 21, 2017 9:12:09 GMT -5
IF a buff was possible... going by what you offered, I would not want it to go through Anciles. They stop physical munitions, period. No way to feasibly fit a cannon penetrating the Ancile into the plot line, so to speak. BUT, that said, armor penetrating rounds exist in real life... I could possibly handle the KD doing the majority of its damage to the physical shield but having a penetrating round continue on to the bot, doing, at most, 25% damage to the bot itself. But event that I would not say I endorse. Shields are there for a reason. They are on Au and WSP bots for a reason. You should have to strive to get them, and they should perform as intended once you do have them. Otherwise... what's the point? The only real buff to the KD that would make it relevant without breaking the balance, is to give it enough damage boost to bring it's DPM up so that it is either equal to or better than the Nashorn's. JMO, YMMV. If the damage is that low I don't see how it's OP. With an avarage of 20k per shot (and the long KD cooldown) it wouldn't be so imbalancing against shielded one's. The galahad has 120k and can be destroyed by 2 tridend volley.... I didn't see this before, but as I said above, the game balance requires there to be one good counter... Galahad's is splash. tridents are the epitome of splash weapons. Yes they take down Galahads. Their shield is DIRECTLY supposed to stop snipers and other direct fire weapons.
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Post by 16romeo on Apr 21, 2017 12:03:09 GMT -5
Also, anciles are a dig at poor man weapons, i.e. Punishers, Molots, Nashorns etc... it doesn't make sense scientifically that an energy shield stops physical rounds, wouldn't it stop energy weapons? But I wouldn't change game mechanics for that reason. That is what keeps you getting better weapons. I think of it like an energy field that is solidifying the molecules that are energized. It takes power to do this, which is why it is drained if you keep hitting it. Energy weapons would not be as solid so the physical aspects are not the same. In my mind, if there was such a thing in reality, it could be tuned to stop energy too... but I see why War Robots doesn't have that. But, it doesn't matter really lol... it IS just a game. My point was that there is an absolute Rock, Paper, Scissors aspect to the game. And Physical shield bots have their counter in tridents and other splash weapons, whereas Ancile shield bots are weak to Plasma. Making a weapon that skews that paradigm will skew the whole concept of simplicity in counters that has made this game so great, in my opinion. The balance of counters to strengths that we have, is a good one. So, I know to keep the balance, you have to have a counter, for what kind shields. So let's say, which would make sense to me; that ecu shield were made of a substance that was too expensive to cover a robot, but would shield against physical and direct shots. The substance that the ecu was made of the weakness would be melting from energy weapon i.e. the energy weapon would do more damage to the ecu. Therefore, the ancile shield could stop energy weapons, but be drained by them, then physical rounds would drain the shield and do damage to the robot but not as much damage to robot as a robot that has no ancile.
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Post by player1hasleft on Apr 21, 2017 12:40:39 GMT -5
if it hits your bot, it will inflict damage to your current bot and all bots in the hanger. GG
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thes1darstard
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Post by thes1darstard on Apr 21, 2017 13:01:02 GMT -5
Based on how Pix altered the Molots and Punishers, I believe that every bullet is actually "fired" in game. Based on that, it would be possible to give some bullets different properties than others. The hard shields also have HP - we just don't see it in game. Balance IS key, but the current balance means that the Nash and KD don't fit well. Tridents do splash damage vs hard shield Tridents bypass ECU Nash/KD get nothing. At higher levels, this give you a near meaningless population to shoot at AND require a greater degree of skill to use to even get those when they DO appear!
Option 1: Keep them as all-rounders. Make them a little better at both. Maybe that still means they aren't good at anything. Option 2: Pick a shield that it is good at countering. Perhaps a shield cracker round that does extra damage vs physical shields, or give it a reason to go through ECUs Option 3: Mini-EMP rounds - some form of interference to the hit target (slowed or visibility affected - like the result of hyrdra hits) Option 4: Tazer Rounds that do electrical splash to nearby reds Option 5: Sniper scope: Visibility to hard-shield HP. At least that way they can see when they hit their target, and would allow tactical information to flow to team mates in squad battles. I would often like to know if the Brit-bot coming my way has a full shield or not.
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thes1darstard
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Post by thes1darstard on Apr 21, 2017 13:02:00 GMT -5
if it hits your bot, it will inflict damage to your current bot and all bots in the hanger. GG HAHA!!! Sounds like someone plays Pokemon or Magic...
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Post by War Child on Apr 21, 2017 13:03:37 GMT -5
Turn it to gold,and buy HE rounds instead of the standard ones,that's all it needs.
KwK/Ag=no advantage to shields Treb/WSP=advantage to ancile shields Kang/Au=advantage to physical shields Now we have a complete set
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