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Post by OU812? on Jun 2, 2021 21:22:21 GMT -5
Just wondering what your thoughts and observations are?
For me, the number of maxed-out pulse cannon 6s and 8s, rpgs and missile rack 6s have made me question previous upgrade decisions. 😬
Feel free to opine!
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Post by Redfiend on Jun 2, 2021 22:10:34 GMT -5
Let's be real, challenging AI is the only thing keeping up game diversity. The meta outliers are obvious among the actual player community. Having AI that uses diverse kits at high levels pokes holes in what has been established as the meta. The only reason there's been a "meta" has been that AI hasn't kept pace with high ranking players shooting fish in a barrel with high burst setups.
I've always said this game is fairly balanced at comparable levels. AI keeping pace at level using non-meta mechs has been proving my initial observation correct.
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Post by punishingcossack on Jun 2, 2021 22:25:03 GMT -5
also, the maxed AI stuff is still in A/B test, meaning that some players face them, and others don't. SP isn't the only factor that determines who gets the maxed AI.
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Post by Danny Linguini on Jun 2, 2021 22:40:51 GMT -5
Let's be real, challenging AI is the only thing keeping up game diversity. The meta outliers are obvious among the actual player community. Having AI that uses diverse kits at high levels pokes holes in what has been established as the meta. The only reason there's been a "meta" has been that AI hasn't kept pace with high ranking players shooting fish in a barrel with high burst setups. I've always said this game is fairly balanced at comparable levels. AI keeping pace at level using non-meta mechs has been proving my initial observation correct. Ok, I’ll give you that, but what’s that got to do with AI running maxed out everything against teams with mostly R5 hangars? Between that and absurdly aggressive and well-coordinated runs in beacons, not to mention the utterly useless AI teammates humans usually get stuck with, only the highest level hangars have a shot in most games now. I’ve been on teams with two or more 3000+ SP players and lost against AI, and these are typically very good players (present company notwithstanding). I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they’re trying to find that fine line between challenging and hopelessly frustrating. But right now, for most players I’ve talked to, they’ve gone a bit too far towards frustrating. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, and I’ll keep saying it - AI should not be determining the outcomes of matches. They’re there to supplement teams that can’t field enough real players. Period. They should be similarly armed to their human counterparts, or an average thereof; i.e., the only time you should see an AI with full R6.7 loadouts is if every other human in the game has the same, which I’ve yet to see anything close. They should all be of the same programmed ‘skill’ level, certainly not uber-aggressive on one side and running around in circles on the other. And last of all, they should not be taking all the MVP’s and awards in any game, especially when they’re all AI’s from the other team. I will never, ever understand the point of AI taking max kills in a tournament TDM game, where real players are fighting for every position they can get. That’s the sure sign that the game outcome is being manipulated. For what purpose?
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Post by BigBear on Jun 3, 2021 4:08:38 GMT -5
With any game (especially one in beta) developer/player communication is a big part of its success,and Plariums is pretty poor,they have only just started informing us of upcoming updates details.
As it is players are now asking themselves why all of a sudden is AI the big dog in the game ?,and we won't really know unless the developers tell us why they changed it.
If they actually kept the player base informed on upcoming tweaks and changes they would probably find us more than willing to test and trial certain things,as it is we are all thrashing around in the dark not understanding their plans,and these changes can happen in a server reset.
Like most I am getting creamed a lot more in games and often not getting in the top three spots at end game,events involving game placings or kill a bot in ten seconds of spawning is a tough nut now,on the other hand taking damage with a certain bot is easy as AI is pounding me 🤣
Communication should be easy,they have their own forum (poorly run),FB page,Discord and of course here to get information out there,I really don't know why they don't interact more with their playerbase with a game they will soon be pushing global.
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Post by BigBear on Jun 3, 2021 5:03:50 GMT -5
This was a CPC game for me this morning,all AI and from the outset red team were terminators,turned all the beacons red quick time and pegged my team back to the spawn point. Now I know this is probably some sort of test or trial but as it is it's no fun to play,seriously who wants to play a game your getting smashed not just by high SP players MM keeps dropping in as your opponent,now AI is out to crush your will. Im out for a while,time for coffee and to enjoy our rare warm weather while I can.
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Post by Koalabear on Jun 3, 2021 7:28:35 GMT -5
I don't know about you guys, but I normally start to see smarter more aggressive AI on my 4th consecutive game after 3 previous wins. By the 5th game, the AI aggressiveness really starts to ramp up. If I keep my consecutive playing to about 3 games or less at any given time, I usually have a good time for those games. Then, I'll put my phone down for a few hours and then play again. I believe that is why those "X wins in a row" tasks are so hard to do. The last time I had trouble with the 6 in a row (and complained about it here), I put my phone down after 3 wins, took a break, and then came back and got another 3, completing that task. Before that, I was trying to do all 6 in one sitting and that got frustrating.
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Post by Danny Linguini on Jun 3, 2021 7:30:06 GMT -5
This was a CPC game for me this morning,all AI and from the outset red team were terminators,turned all the beacons red quick time and pegged my team back to the spawn point. Now I know this is probably some sort of test or trial but as it is it's no fun to play,seriously who wants to play a game your getting smashed not just by high SP players MM keeps dropping in as your opponent,now AI is out to crush your will. Im out for a while,time for coffee and to enjoy our rare warm weather while I can. You’re lucky - at least all your AI contributed something. I’ve had games where two ‘teammates’ had 0 kills and maybe 1 beacon. But I totally agree, this nonsense is anything but fun.
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Post by Redfiend on Jun 3, 2021 8:02:26 GMT -5
Danny Linguini I'm chalking that up to what I can tell the actual MM is running on, and how they're screwing with it through those factors: EXP*(Definite base factor) Total games*(secondary) Winrate* Highest possible SP**(possible tertiary, not confirmed) *the EXP track definitely plays a part in the actual loadouts/ranks AI uses. On the nuzlocke, I started seeing Pulse Killshots at 80k, Pulse 8 killshots at 85k, and am starting to see MR8/ Stasis12+TL4 AI Juggernauts. ** Tournament winrate/games played seems to be a factor in each INDIVIDUAL heat. The first few matches are using the base MM with a modifier for ranking bracket, with each individual heat having a floor (Base MM and ranking bracket) and a ceiling (additional games played/won that day) ***Highest ~possible~ SP means the highest POSSIBLE, not the levels you actually have, but the highest level your gear CAN be upgraded to by it's BP. Whether or not you actually purchased or upgraded the item, the Maximum possible upgrade that item can be still seems to be factored in. Say, if you have a hangar that's all 5.1, but mechs you aren't using, or haven't even purchased, could be upgraded to 5.6, the game is taking that possible 5.6, even if the item is still 2.1, into consideration. The first is definitely true, and likely what they're "tuning". Before they changed to that system, it was running on Division, which is why murder squads were super common for any player at 10,999 division rating. Now that they have switched to the EXP track based MM rating, they're adjusting where the murder squads come in. The "tuning" is trying to pick where what level AI is actually appropriate. Before, even max XP track players were getting pushovers, now it seems like they've put the murder squads somewhere after all mechs and weapons are unlocked. Where? I'm not sure. The revenue model is meant to push players into spending for that "little bit more" power in the late game, and that's what they're actually tuning. Does it suck? Absolutely, is it necessary? For the game to be F2P, probably. Especially because the content creation community consists of Alpha and early Beta adopters, with the only person that openly claims they've dumped decent money into the game being Grudgenaut(Mech arena central) and a few others. It's the nature of the beast. As with the original waves of murderbots, it will probably be tuned more over time. With the way progression works in this game, the playerbase is spread thin, and it will likely stay that way until well into global release. The only players that are going to "catch up" to everyone that started in alpha/beta will be whales. Because of that, we're going to see a lot of tweaks to the AI to ~incentivise~ spending at later points of progression, as the "price progression" disincentivizes purchases with how little money can actually effects progression in the late game.
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Post by dukeofadvil on Jun 3, 2021 8:22:55 GMT -5
I have noticed 2 different AI configurations that have plagued me. 1)Swarming Shadow's and Zephyr's. 2) Maxed-out Juggys The first is like trying to eat a watermelon at a picnic. The damn things are everywhere, and you can't do anything until you swat them away. The second I just cannot kill, 3 volleys pf Jav6's and 3 Dashes and they still have enough healtb to finish you off. When you finally kill him, here comes another one to get in your face.
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Post by Redfiend on Jun 3, 2021 8:32:23 GMT -5
I have noticed 2 different AI configurations that have plagued me. 1)Swarming Shadow's and Zephyr's. 2) Maxed-out Juggys The first is like trying to eat a watermelon at a picnic. The damn things are everywhere, and you can't do anything until you swat them away. The second I just cannot kill, 3 volleys pf Jav6's and 3 Dashes and they still have enough healtb to finish you off. When you finally kill him, here comes another one to get in your face. I see a lesser form of that, but yea. Getting team shot from 2-3 different angles by light mechs is no joke. In CPC, good luck keeping bacon in anything slower than Paragon. As someone that's a fan of light mechs in pretty much every mech game, vindication that they're not as useless as everyone keeps saying they are gives me tingles. Juggernaut is THE GOAT and people really seem to sleep on how meaty it actually gets.
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Post by A.c.r.u.x. on Jun 3, 2021 10:03:25 GMT -5
Danny and I were getting slaughtered last night... I know it didn't help that I had won like 30+ in a row and he made the bad choice of inviting me and I was already struggling with the game doing its best to bring me back down.
I believe once we even had a full squad and every AI was in murder mode, I just started laughing at how fast I was being engaged by the intelligent AI.. I swear they knew where I was going to be and not so much where I currently was...
We almost seemed to do better to abandon getting beacons in CPC and just all run panthers and shield wall like crazy until we cycled through the AI. We would win with like 25 to 85 on the board..
I dont mind the tougher AI, but yea it had made me consider not just sitting on resources and upgrade some things as getting hit by maxed weapons and bots is way more a challenge than the walk out in the open and take on the world as I'd do before. My poor KS had a max life span of maybe 35 seconds before.. now its like 15..
Is the new bot still aimed to land on the next update, I didnt see it mentioned in their announcement on their forum thing. Saw that once you max the XP track they will now give random rewards so you dont just stop anymore.
Edit: words are hard.
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Post by Danny Linguini on Jun 3, 2021 10:27:44 GMT -5
I have noticed 2 different AI configurations that have plagued me. 1)Swarming Shadow's and Zephyr's. 2) Maxed-out Juggys The first is like trying to eat a watermelon at a picnic. The damn things are everywhere, and you can't do anything until you swat them away. The second I just cannot kill, 3 volleys pf Jav6's and 3 Dashes and they still have enough healtb to finish you off. When you finally kill him, here comes another one to get in your face. I see a lesser form of that, but yea. Getting team shot from 2-3 different angles by light mechs is no joke. In CPC, good luck keeping bacon in anything slower than Paragon. As someone that's a fan of light mechs in pretty much every mech game, vindication that they're not as useless as everyone keeps saying they are gives me tingles. Juggernaut is THE GOAT and people really seem to sleep on how meaty it actually gets. This is what I’m seeing most often, and swarming home beacons two or three at a a time. The flanking makes it impossible to take certain beacons. The coordinated attacks, combined with their maxed out status, make in impossible to defend them. The aggression level definitely varies from game to game, but it’s quite obvious when they have the A team in. I actually had a game where I meched out my entire hangar and ended up with no kills and one beacon. Wherever I was, they just swarmed it with two or three reds the whole game … well, the whole two minutes that it lasted. Don’t think there wasn’t some creative cussing after that one.
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Post by Redfiend on Jun 3, 2021 10:39:55 GMT -5
I see a lesser form of that, but yea. Getting team shot from 2-3 different angles by light mechs is no joke. In CPC, good luck keeping bacon in anything slower than Paragon. As someone that's a fan of light mechs in pretty much every mech game, vindication that they're not as useless as everyone keeps saying they are gives me tingles. Juggernaut is THE GOAT and people really seem to sleep on how meaty it actually gets. This is what Iâm seeing most often, and swarming home beacons two or three at a a time. The flanking makes it impossible to take certain beacons. The coordinated attacks, combined with their maxed out status, make in impossible to defend them. The aggression level definitely varies from game to game, but itâs quite obvious when they have the A team in. I actually had a game where I meched out my entire hangar and ended up with no kills and one beacon. Wherever I was, they just swarmed it with two or three reds the whole game ⦠well, the whole two minutes that it lasted. Donât think there wasnât some creative cussing after that one. Light mechs in this game are perfect compared to all of the other mech brawlers I've played. They're packing just enough health and firepower where it's a lose/lose. Try to duel them to get rid of them? Get drawn into a crap position and smacked by something else. Ignore them? Get spanked from the flanks. The only reasons they don't see much play by players are: Their rank up costs are 「fluffernutter」ing ridiculous. Killshot needs a nerf. That bloody thing does too much without sacrificing much. Surge should have Killshot's current HP and vice versa. There's no reason for Surge to be as squishy as shadow/cheetah with it's mediocre base speed and non damaging ability while Killshot is Sanic the Zipsplat.
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Post by Danny Linguini on Jun 3, 2021 10:48:29 GMT -5
Danny and I were getting slaughtered last night... I know it didn't help that I had won like 30+ in a row and he made the bad choice of inviting me and I was already struggling with the game doing its best to bring me back down. I believe once we even had a full squad and every AI was in murder mode, I just started laughing at how fast I was being engaged by the intelligent AI.. I swear they knew where I was going to be and not so much where I currently was... We almost seemed to do better to abandon getting beacons in CPC and just all run panthers and shield wall like crazy until we cycled through the AI. We would win with like 25 to 85 on the board.. I dont mind the tougher AI, but yea it had made me consider not just sitting on resources and upgrade some things as getting hit by maxed weapons and bots is way more a challenge than the walk out in the open and take on the world as I'd do before. My poor KS had a max life span of maybe 35 seconds before.. now its like 15.. Is the new bot still aimed to land on the next update, I didnt see it mentioned in their announcement on their forum thing. Saw that once you max the XP track they will now give random rewards so you dont just stop anymore. Edit: words are hard. That was definitely a rough stretch. And yes, they do seem to pick one player to focus on, and it’s either the one with most wins as you’re suggesting, or the highest XP/SP player on the team. The do seem to know where you’re going, and they also seem to have eyes on you wherever you are, even if it looks like there are no eyes on you. Many, many times I come out from a corner and there’s a LA round already on its way, or laser pointers following me before I’m even out from behind it. And I’m pretty sure their RM’s have homing ability, too - I swear I see their trajectory curve when I try to dodge them, and I see them launch from the back of the field, so I know they’re not javs.
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Post by Deadeye on Jun 3, 2021 13:49:04 GMT -5
I know this is going to be an unwelcome opinion, but I'm not having much extra trouble with the AI. I do realize 2 things that might impact this. My hanger strength was (until this morning) hovering around 3150. The other thought is that like Koalabear said, I don't play a long string of games so maybe I'm not accumulating the AI's wrath over time. That said, the only times I've had losses against AI lately have been when both the other team is super aggressive AND my team is full of useless campers (all it takes is 2 at the start of a match). As long as my semi-intellegent AI move forward with me, I have seen that I can make them better by exposing myself periodically so the red AI focus on me and not my teammates and by using my support abilities to support them. Namely, my panther wall. My whole deal is analyzing the AI patterns and using them against them. That why I'll take one of my KSs at the beginning of a match and shoot behind enemy lines to start taking their home beacons. I know they are spying me and 2-3 will come back for me. It gives my AI the numbers necessary to take center. As for the Juggy invasion (and let's be real...the Ares of similar strength are also hard nuts to crack), I've had to devise strategies for each mech I have for dealing with them. That said, some of my favorite set-ups from the past just don't have enough DPS to handle them. The Jav KS won't cut it. I wish it would, many RL player I come across will get top spot on the podium with it, but lose the battle because they can't keep up with the damage I'm pumping out with my Panthers and Guardians and Carb KSs. Against a Juggy "rock", the Jav KS is still just a pair of "scissors". You gotta bring the gun to the gunfight.
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Post by Koalabear on Jun 3, 2021 15:57:57 GMT -5
Yeah, high level tanks is one of the main reasons I run my Guardians as Thanos. I can kill even a high level Jugg with the Guardian's System Crash and then 3 shots from the RG16 and 3 - 4 shots from the LA8. This is close range of course, so the LA8 isn't all that powerful. What makes it useful is the OH. Compared to that, the RG/MR Panther didn't quite measure up. I suppose I could try one of my Guardians with MR8 instead of LA8, but I'm afraid of gear confusion in the middle of a firefight.
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Post by OU812? on Jun 3, 2021 19:12:56 GMT -5
Danny Linguini I'm chalking that up to what I can tell the actual MM is running on, and how they're screwing with it through those factors: EXP*(Definite base factor) Total games*(secondary) Winrate* Highest possible SP**(possible tertiary, not confirmed) *the EXP track definitely plays a part in the actual loadouts/ranks AI uses. On the nuzlocke, I started seeing Pulse Killshots at 80k, Pulse 8 killshots at 85k, and am starting to see MR8/ Stasis12+TL4 AI Juggernauts. ** Tournament winrate/games played seems to be a factor in each INDIVIDUAL heat. The first few matches are using the base MM with a modifier for ranking bracket, with each individual heat having a floor (Base MM and ranking bracket) and a ceiling (additional games played/won that day) ***Highest ~possible~ SP means the highest POSSIBLE, not the levels you actually have, but the highest level your gear CAN be upgraded to by it's BP. Whether or not you actually purchased or upgraded the item, the Maximum possible upgrade that item can be still seems to be factored in. Say, if you have a hangar that's all 5.1, but mechs you aren't using, or haven't even purchased, could be upgraded to 5.6, the game is taking that possible 5.6, even if the item is still 2.1, into consideration. The first is definitely true, and likely what they're "tuning". Before they changed to that system, it was running on Division, which is why murder squads were super common for any player at 10,999 division rating. Now that they have switched to the EXP track based MM rating, they're adjusting where the murder squads come in. The "tuning" is trying to pick where what level AI is actually appropriate. Before, even max XP track players were getting pushovers, now it seems like they've put the murder squads somewhere after all mechs and weapons are unlocked. Where? I'm not sure. The revenue model is meant to push players into spending for that "little bit more" power in the late game, and that's what they're actually tuning. Does it suck? Absolutely, is it necessary? For the game to be F2P, probably. Especially because the content creation community consists of Alpha and early Beta adopters, with the only person that openly claims they've dumped decent money into the game being Grudgenaut(Mech arena central) and a few others. It's the nature of the beast. As with the original waves of murderbots, it will probably be tuned more over time. With the way progression works in this game, the playerbase is spread thin, and it will likely stay that way until well into global release. The only players that are going to "catch up" to everyone that started in alpha/beta will be whales. Because of that, we're going to see a lot of tweaks to the AI to ~incentivise~ spending at later points of progression, as the "price progression" disincentivizes purchases with how little money can actually effects progression in the late game. Thanks for that breakdown. That might explain why tourneys become so difficult a day or two after I play way too much tourney. I won’t doubt that Plarium will continue tuning.
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Post by OU812? on Jun 3, 2021 19:15:30 GMT -5
I have noticed 2 different AI configurations that have plagued me. 1)Swarming Shadow's and Zephyr's. 2) Maxed-out Juggys The first is like trying to eat a watermelon at a picnic. The damn things are everywhere, and you can't do anything until you swat them away. The second I just cannot kill, 3 volleys pf Jav6's and 3 Dashes and they still have enough healtb to finish you off. When you finally kill him, here comes another one to get in your face. I see a lesser form of that, but yea. Getting team shot from 2-3 different angles by light mechs is no joke. In CPC, good luck keeping bacon in anything slower than Paragon. As someone that's a fan of light mechs in pretty much every mech game, vindication that they're not as useless as everyone keeps saying they are gives me tingles. Juggernaut is THE GOAT and people really seem to sleep on how meaty it actually gets. I’ve experience what you’re both describing. Matches have been all over the place today.
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Post by Danny Linguini on Jun 5, 2021 19:06:54 GMT -5
Everybody who’s supposedly ‘in the know’ says that this is all just a test and part of Plarium’s ongoing tweaking of the game. I’m convinced now beyond the shadow of a doubt that this AI buff, in conjunction with that sweet offer a few days ago, is absolutely just part of a ‘test’, to see how far they can push players to spend. Nothing more, nothing less. If they crank up matchmaking and AI power and aggression, can they get more players to spend? Will players buy more of those $5 crate + a-coin offers to upgrade faster? Will more of them bite on the $50 and $60 offers for prototype mechs and weapons? Will the presently true F2P players finally cave and buy an offer for cheap a-coins, credits and keys that’s too good to be true? That’s it, plain and simple. Screw game quality, let’s just see how much we can wring out of these rubes. Even though we’re still only in Beta. There is simply no way they could pull what they just pulled and have any other motive.
I, like most other players, wanted to believe this was going to be different, that these designers truly wanted to provide a better, fairer game experience, and indeed they showed signs early on that that was the case. But we’re all just being played here. They’re going the same route as Pigsonic, only they did a better job of hiding it and sucking players in.
Well, no more. I’m at the point now where every time I start the game, instead of strategizing and figuring how to optimize and maximize my hangar, all I’m thinking is that every single thing I do, every button I tap, everything in this game is designed to squeeze as much money from me as possibly. All this talk about wanting to keep this game fair and balanced is pure and utter BS, and this current ongoing ‘test’ is proof positive of that. They’ve been screwing with AI and matchmaking as long as I’ve been playing, and it’s finally gotten to this ridiculous state. The game isn’t even out of beta yet, and they’ve already taken all the fun out of it for me.
Enough.
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Post by Deadeye on Jun 9, 2021 9:28:37 GMT -5
Everybody who’s supposedly ‘in the know’ says that this is all just a test and part of Plarium’s ongoing tweaking of the game. I’m convinced now beyond the shadow of a doubt that this AI buff, in conjunction with that sweet offer a few days ago, is absolutely just part of a ‘test’, to see how far they can push players to spend. Nothing more, nothing less. If they crank up matchmaking and AI power and aggression, can they get more players to spend? Will players buy more of those $5 crate + a-coin offers to upgrade faster? Will more of them bite on the $50 and $60 offers for prototype mechs and weapons? Will the presently true F2P players finally cave and buy an offer for cheap a-coins, credits and keys that’s too good to be true? That’s it, plain and simple. Screw game quality, let’s just see how much we can wring out of these rubes. Even though we’re still only in Beta. There is simply no way they could pull what they just pulled and have any other motive. I, like most other players, wanted to believe this was going to be different, that these designers truly wanted to provide a better, fairer game experience, and indeed they showed signs early on that that was the case. But we’re all just being played here. They’re going the same route as Pigsonic, only they did a better job of hiding it and sucking players in. Well, no more. I’m at the point now where every time I start the game, instead of strategizing and figuring how to optimize and maximize my hangar, all I’m thinking is that every single thing I do, every button I tap, everything in this game is designed to squeeze as much money from me as possibly. All this talk about wanting to keep this game fair and balanced is pure and utter BS, and this current ongoing ‘test’ is proof positive of that. They’ve been screwing with AI and matchmaking as long as I’ve been playing, and it’s finally gotten to this ridiculous state. The game isn’t even out of beta yet, and they’ve already taken all the fun out of it for me. Enough.
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