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Post by BigBear on May 9, 2021 4:45:36 GMT -5
Finally got round to getting the Shadow,so looking for your thoughts on its optimal load out.I never got the shotguns so have no idea how useful these are but I have all the other weapons.
I was thinking Javs to begin with but as I can get up close to opponents with stealth is a harder hitting weapon better ?.
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Post by Redfiend on May 9, 2021 6:12:44 GMT -5
Javs are just as useful on it as they are on anything else. Makes you useless against enemy Shadows though. One of the possible jobs on Shadow's job list is cleaning up other Shadows when there aren't any Killshots around to maul them.
Shotguns are only going to be worth it if you can get them to R4 at least. Like the Arc Torrent, 30M base range is 「bum-bum」, but 36m is surprisingly workable.
Shotguns require the least amount of aiming, deal only slightly less damage than MR6 when in optimal range, and shred other Shadows because they're all so squishy.
MR6 is okay if you're okay with never actually committing to firefights. Chuck rockets and run away before stealth wears off.
RPGs are the most flexible weapons for it. The unload time gives it plenty of time to move in and retreat with stealth, the higher rocket velocity over MR allow it to be more consistent at safer ranges.
Arc Torrents are the most damage it can do at close range, but they actually require aiming, and being right on top of the enemy to deal maximum damage. Basically Shotguns with higher damage for less ease of use.
Properly leveled Plasma Cannon 6 is the "happy medium" in terms of damage, cycle time, ease of use, and range when compared to all of the above.
Then there's the routes of asymmetrical 「illegitimate child」ry:
Carb 12
Carb 8+ Autocannon/Plasma 4: Medium/close Kite/flank
MR8+ SG4: Hail mary rockets at distance, close range stranger danger.
Pulse 6+TL6 / Pulse 8+ TL4: pure midrange Kite/Support fire. Enough sustained damage that you can't be ignored. Enemy is faced with a lose/lose ultimatum. Ignore you, get overheated while you shoot them in the 「bum-bum」 and kill them, or try to deal with you, get flanked by something worse than you while overheated, with the worst case scenario for you being a trade. A trade still being a net positive if the baited enemy was a primary attacker.
Honorable mention: Stasis 12. Stasis is already cruelty to strangers. Insert dirty joke here.
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Post by BigBear on May 9, 2021 6:26:02 GMT -5
Thank you Redfiend,as usual your post is in depth and food for thought.Reading through it there seems to be no outright winner for weapon so I will try a few variations and see what works for me.
Never using Shotguns I was of the thought of get in close and take the target out but that depends on the damage it can do in one stealthy attack.
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Post by Redfiend on May 9, 2021 7:04:30 GMT -5
Thank you Redfiend,as usual your post is in depth and food for thought.Reading through it there seems to be no outright winner for weapon so I will try a few variations and see what works for me. Never using Shotguns I was of the thought of get in close and take the target out but that depends on the damage it can do in one stealthy attack. SG4 is only a few hundred damage short of MR6 on a level per level basis. The hit angle for the shotgun spread is W I D E. Think cartoonish sneeze mist wide. Shotguns take 4 seconds to empty, so their cycle time is slightly faster than MR, longer unload, faster reload. I guess prioritizing them by the average between ease of use and raw output: Close range(short unload,<30m): Shotguns> Missile Racks> Arc torrent Mid-Close (short / moderate unload / lock on, <30m-75m): Javelin > Carbine > Plasma Mid(50m-90m): Javelin = Pulse+TL combo If you spawn Shadow early game, lean towards midrange, otherwise rushing in will get you Zip-splat by the very strong chance there's a Killshot or 2 racing to center. If you intend to use it mid/late game,then go for close range. Spawning later means having a general idea of what's on the field and where everyone is on the map. That's key information for if you should flank, steal objectives, or if there's a problem person/mech that's a high priority to get off the field without sacrificing one of your main fighters. |
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Post by Koalabear on May 10, 2021 14:00:24 GMT -5
Shotguns on the Shadow, in practice, only worked for me in the early days of a TDM cycle where there are a lot of dumb AI. It is VERY hard to run the Shadow against a smart, determined human player with Shotguns.
I love the Shadow, and have tried many set ups, but, I keep coming back to JR6. With this, the Shadow and unload a ton of damage without ever being seen. It's weaknesses are high level Juggs and other JR builds and LoS weapon armed Shadows and Killshots. In CPC games, the Shadow is my go to for mid game beacons and sucker punching reds. I hope to max my JR6 in order to squeeze out the maximum damage. I wish the Shadow got a critical chance buff if it hits its target unseen but that might make it too powerful.
If I weren't going to run JR6, then my next go to weapon is the RPG6. You really don't want to get too close with the Shadow, even in stealth. Human players and some AI bots can hit you pretty consistently, and don't forget the KS's Melee Dash can one shot kill you if you've taken some damage already. Hell, I've picked off Shadows in stealth at as far as mid range with my Thanos build. All I need is patience and a lot of luck.
The AT6 is a poor choice for the Shadow. Sure, it's one of the few mechs that can get in close enough, but at that range, the Shadow is very vulnerable even while in stealth. The MR6 is not bad but RPG6 is better. PC6 is great against other Shadows but takes too long to deal damage against tougher opponents, thereby leaving you exposed longer.
I haven't tried Plasma Cannon in a long time but I remember I dropped it cause it was almost useless when I was kiting or when I was trying to hit a kiting opponent.
My advice: stick with JR6. Yes, it's got some weaknesses, but you can mitigate the risks with careful piloting and picking your battles. It is useful on all CPC maps (flying ship is hard to use but there's a great JR launch point near the centre beacon on the sides), and it's useful on most TDM maps. For those maps that it's not great at, just switch out to RPG6.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on May 10, 2021 15:12:48 GMT -5
Gonna add my experience in, but I believe the majority of what is going to work has been said.
Builds I have tried during my learning/testing phase of the bot, after getting it to 12 EN:
*This is a subjective opinion... but SG 4 is pretty good... at 5* and above... and with the skillset of running a Shadow honed to a fine edge. Even against hard opponents. But I can't stress enough that you have to be good with the mech and know how to use the map and stealth in conjunction to stay as  as possible. SGs really are a cinch to hit with, like Red said, and if you are close enough, they do a lot of damage. HOWEVER, you have to gtfo as quickly as possible since you will be without anything to hit with for enough time for you to likely be out of stealth before shooting again..
1x SG paired with a Carb 8 or MR 8, it allows for more flexibility and some good damage, but knowing the mech inside and out is still necessary to get the most out of the build.
*I've tried Jav 6 and MR 6 and Javs are the clear winner. Easily the best starter weapon set for the Shadow while you learn it.
*I will be trying RPG 6 soon... so no comment.
*Carb 8 + TL 4 is good, as long as the TL is leveled, for lower leveled opponents, at least.
*Carb 12 is just mean. Even one, if leveled, is enough to make folk change their mind about whatever it is they are doing, or to kill most mechs that have had a little damage. I really enjoyed this build and have put it in a few times just because it works well.
*One that I ran for Ss and Gs that actually surprised the crap out of me is a single RM 12. You can truly be an anti-mortar bot since you can be your own spotter while being invisible. In CPC, you should be taking un contested beacons too... but ya have to be careful since Reds could spawn there right before you get there and if you are not paying attention or can't stealth up and get out of the Line of Fire, you're basically dead. I would say if this was used, then taking out the other mortars would be priority 1, THEN go get beacons while taking potshots at enemy concentrations. With a little bit of practice, it's pretty effective, and the most fun RM build I have played, followed closely by the Jav 6 + RM 12 KS. It's definitely NOT a camping build and takes skill and/or luck to stay alive while not having any direct fire weapons.
*Arc 10 + TL 2... with the TL 2 leveled to 4*, at least, it was overheating fast enough to make it work and since I could stealth my way to the sides and back of the Red, it was getting some great damage numbers.
Between Koala and Red's posts, I can't think of much more to be said... other than if you can find a partner to run with that is also in a Shadow, mid-late game Beacon snatching is a breeze. Especially if y'all are coordinating and using each other as bait and flank buddies, you become a very deadly Mech kill team too... with the goal of separating one Red at a time from the group (this should NOT be a priority, but it's an option, nonetheless).
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Post by BigBear on May 11, 2021 9:12:26 GMT -5
Thanks,some great feedback here,I will start with Jav 4's while I upgrade and get used to the mechanics of the bot.If I'm happy with how they perform I will move to the 6's.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Sept 27, 2021 9:50:15 GMT -5
I don't think this is a Necro since it's new info that is relative to the current game state... but I can move it or create a new thread if needed.
So, I had a impulsive moment about a week or so ago (right before the bug was introduced), and got the Arc 6s. I have used them doubled up AND in a couple of hybrid load-outs, on the Shadow, and this is what I found:
Whatever they (allegedly) did to make the Arc 10 better a few updates ago*, applies to these, too. They are NOT OP... let me be clear... but they are actually viable, now. Mine are at 5.6, so not even fully 6 * yet, but I am able to get some decent work out of them. I'd say they are definitely 6 EN weapons... but can punch a little above their weight, now.
I have settled on MR 8 + Arc 6, for now... and am pleased enough to still run it. I think my dream of Arc 10 + Arc 6 maxed Shadow is going to come to fruition... even with the higher EN Disk Launchers coming into the mix.
It's FUN. It's not the most devastating style of play, by any means. But, I was able to kill a few mechs and take beacons in every match I used it in, so far. I feel like that mech was the clincher in the majority of those games, too... as I was able to get minimum of 3 beacons with every run, pulling out quite a few "come from behind" wins. Even when a Red would spawn at the beacon I was sneaking around to, I had enough power to take it out or maim it enough for a teammate to kill it with ease... and either get that beacon or run away and get another one before I could be stopped but after attention had been drawn to that location. I actually just ran laps and kept just retaking everything they took. Reminded me of Loki with a decent set of weapons... which is not how it felt, before.
Just wanted to share this in case you, BigBear, are still looking for build options that will allow you to run the Shadow, but also for anyone else who has thought about getting the 6's to put on a light bot or to run them in a hybrid setup with a Medium or Heavy mech, as well as for anyone that already has them and wrote them off, previously. Curious about that last, by the way, if any of y'all do own them, have you tried them recently? Am I imagining this?
*I am not sure about there being a buff... But I am coming to believe that something WAS changed. I was using my Arc 10 before that, but wasn't blown away by it. To the point that I wouldn't run dual Arcs on Zep because it just wasn't good. Then a clan-mate mentioned that they had gotten better and it was right after a big update... maybe around the Arachnos release? And sure enough, after enough people started raving about the Palpatine, I tried it, and it was noticeably better... If this was a buff or a fix, it went under the radar... but something does seem to have happened to both the 10 and the 6. This was before the bug-introducing update, btw.
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Post by Koalabear on Sept 27, 2021 10:14:52 GMT -5
Alas, I'm just not good enough at CQC to run the AT weapons at all. If I'm lucky enough or eventually buy the DL8, then I'll seriously consider maxing my Shadow so that I can run it with "RPG6 that doesn't miss".
I did bring my Shadow up to 14EN this morning and tried MR8/JR6, but need more practices single firing.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Sept 27, 2021 16:29:33 GMT -5
Alas, I'm just not good enough at CQC to run the AT weapons at all. If I'm lucky enough or eventually buy the DL8, then I'll seriously consider maxing my Shadow so that I can run it with "RPG6 that doesn't miss". I did bring my Shadow up to 14EN this morning and tried MR8/JR6, but need more practices single firing. Let me be clear, I am NOT brawling with this... I am trying to be sneaky, get beacons, and only fight as I am heading to cover or running away. Truly... fighting is the last resort. The MR 8 allows me to make some mid and long range pot shots... sometimes very lucky ones... but otherwise I only engage if they surprise me or if I HAVE TO in order to secure the win. You are not bad at it... the mech is. |
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Post by hicycles on Sept 28, 2021 1:39:10 GMT -5
Alas, I'm just not good enough at CQC to run the AT weapons at all. If I'm lucky enough or eventually buy the DL8, then I'll seriously consider maxing my Shadow so that I can run it with "RPG6 that doesn't miss". I did bring my Shadow up to 14EN this morning and tried MR8/JR6, but need more practices single firing. Let me be clear, I am NOT brawling with this... I am trying to be sneaky, get beacons, and only fight as I am heading to cover or running away. Truly... fighting is the last resort. The MR 8 allows me to make some mid and long range pot shots... sometimes very lucky ones... but otherwise I only engage if they surprise me or if I HAVE TO in order to secure the win. You are not bad at it... the mech is. Oh, donât be so hard on Shadow. Itâs a fun mech to play, and I really enjoy sneaking up on reds. So far, in my experience, most players arenât expecting a Shadow, and it can be easy to become a pain in their 「bum-bum」⦠|
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Post by Commander Dog on Sept 28, 2021 1:42:00 GMT -5
Shadow; just like the Spanish Inquisition.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Sept 28, 2021 7:42:24 GMT -5
Let me be clear, I am NOT brawling with this... I am trying to be sneaky, get beacons, and only fight as I am heading to cover or running away. Truly... fighting is the last resort. The MR 8 allows me to make some mid and long range pot shots... sometimes very lucky ones... but otherwise I only engage if they surprise me or if I HAVE TO in order to secure the win. You are not bad at it... the mech is. Oh, donât be so hard on Shadow. Itâs a fun mech to play, and I really enjoy sneaking up on reds. So far, in my experience, most players arenât expecting a Shadow, and it can be easy to become a pain in their 「bum-bum」⦠When RGs can erase me in one shot... I prefer to not be seen lol. |
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Post by Danny Linguini on Sept 28, 2021 8:20:57 GMT -5
Shadow; just like the Spanish Inquisition. |
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Post by Munki on Sept 28, 2021 15:59:04 GMT -5
Shadow just like any other mech should consider their Achievements. Shadow gives the most achievement points for kills using Javelin weapons so it helps to run them and get good with them on the Shadow. Also note that the other highest yielding achievement is capping beacons WHILE IN STEALTH. So learn how long it takes to turn a red beacon blue and a neutral to blue. I've stepped out of a beacon to not turn it until I could get my stealth going again.
The only other weapon achievements for Shadow are AUTOCANNON damage (Yuck) and Shotguns. However, you need to get kills with shotgun WHILE THE ENEMY CAPTURES A CONTROL POINT! That is very hard to do especially against Ai.
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Post by Thunderkiss on Sept 28, 2021 16:14:29 GMT -5
Arc trail, shotguns, pulse cannons, anything but javs. like redfiend stated, its trash against other shadows.
Personally, I'd reccomend against using it at all, as killshots are EVERYWHERE, and stealth really only hides you from javelins. Until they make steath better i'd not use it.
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Post by Koalabear on Sept 29, 2021 7:44:17 GMT -5
Against human players, you have to use the Red Eye icon as your guiding light. Turning on stealth takes that eye off you, so if you're in cover already, your opponent has to guess where you are. I use that time to get to a different elevation, stay out of sight and launch another round of missiles.
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Post by nocluevok on Sept 29, 2021 8:41:22 GMT -5
I go with JR6's on CPC, and SG4's on short, cramped TDM maps.
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as possible. SGs really are a cinch to hit with, like Red said, and if you are close enough, they do a lot of damage. HOWEVER, you have to gtfo as quickly as possible since you will be without anything to hit with for enough time for you to likely be out of stealth before shooting again.. 
