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Post by frunobulax on Aug 22, 2020 2:25:50 GMT -5
Anyone else thinks that these ?female dog?es are way OP? Maybe not if you get to 5* bots, but they become available fairly early in the game. Makes it hard to cap a beacon if a guy with 2 Mortars sits back at their spawn, and takes shots at any bot that tries to cap a beacon.
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Post by mechtout on Aug 22, 2020 10:37:31 GMT -5
I've been one shot killed many times by these thing, usually a Guardian with two mounted. If you can get within 60m of it they can't hit you, that's pretty satisfying way to take them out  |
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Post by Danny Linguini on Aug 22, 2020 12:59:41 GMT -5
Yeah, for sure these are one of the biggest problems I can see in the game. Way too accurate and powerful for such distance.
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Post by mechtout on Aug 22, 2020 13:20:55 GMT -5
I have enough AC to get the RM8, but now not sure if it fits my style. Definitely tempting because its so op. Thinking probably keep saving for a high level AC item like a Guardian, Shadow or Stasis beam
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Post by mechtout on Aug 23, 2020 19:42:52 GMT -5
just had three red guardians with RMs pinned in their spawn, it was comedy, until a red jugg spawned to protect them XD
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Post by runamok on Aug 23, 2020 20:04:55 GMT -5
Not so worried about them doing the one shot, but rather that even seeing them launch, then attempt to move out of the way, you still get hit. They do do phenomenal amounts of damage
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Post by Danny Linguini on Aug 23, 2020 23:55:05 GMT -5
Not so worried about them doing the one shot, but rather that even seeing them launch, then attempt to move out of the way, you still get hit. They do do phenomenal amounts of damage That’s IF you see them, which most of the time you can’t. They are badly broken. Somebody posted on FB a while ago, and we have to remember before we go flipping out, I guess this game is ‘officially’ still in beta, so they’re still tweaking stuff before it goes live. No idea what that timeframe is, but all things considered, it’s in pretty damn good shape for a beta, if it is indeed still in beta. |
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Post by frunobulax on Aug 28, 2020 1:33:40 GMT -5
I might rage uninstall MA if they don't nerf Mortars.
I just came up against a team of 2 RM Guardians. They alternated their ability, so that whenever I came close, they blocked me. They positioned themselves very cleverly so that I was either constantly hit by their ability, or was in range of the RMs. Eventually they killed me even though I was in constant motion with a Killshot. The battle before I got killed by a RM even though I was walking straight towards the shooter with my Panther (and no other friendly mech in vicinity that could have been the target). Another game before that, Tourney, was dominated by a RM player where I never got close enough to kill him, I tried with all my 4 mechs.
Almost tempted to throw away the A-coins to unlock RM8s, and hook up with someone to make a video showing how to abuse RM with 2 RM Guardians. But I guess I hate them too much to make it happen.
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Post by mechtout on Aug 28, 2020 2:21:00 GMT -5
Whats the min range on these things?
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Post by runamok on Aug 28, 2020 3:24:11 GMT -5
Whats the min range on these things? I think it’s 30, which is inside the Guardian’s ability range |
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 28, 2020 3:36:39 GMT -5
Whats the min range on these things? 40 or 45M iirc. You can check in-game. The Guardians that are using them in game are assuredly AI(players would throw them on Paragon), which makes them annoying to deal with because the enemy AI is actually very coordinated. I find that matches against AI where the two teams have comparable hangars are won/lost because of the difference of coordination. Unlike generic AI bots, these things seem to actually have team based, coordinated game-plan, and operate on plays similar to what you would see in a US Football playbook. The rocket mortar dill weed AI is a colossal PITA to deal with because the other AI will actively make sure actually getting to it to kill it off isn't easy. Same thing happens when AI Guardian or Panther snipers roll out. The direct path to them has you dead-to-rights from them annihilating you with Long-Arms, while the path to flank them is stopped up by tanks, or wandering light bots that pose just enough of a threat that you can't ignore them. I've been shut down on pretty much every map by the AI actually taking strong strategic positions, and have only found myself winning those matches when I'm playing the role friendly AI aren't, or focusing on breaking the enemy AI's position with thoughtful counterplay. Even though the AI is, well, bots, we can't treat them like bots and expect to win. We have to treat them like a coordinated team and read what our own team is doing(when they're not just being ditzy and purposely missing etc) to actually have a shot at winning. The enemy AI makes coordinated plays, and isn't in the business of missing shots. |
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Post by frunobulax on Aug 28, 2020 4:06:06 GMT -5
Whats the min range on these things? 40 or 45M iirc. You can check in-game. The Guardians that are using them in game are assuredly AI(players would throw them on Paragon), which makes them annoying to deal with because the enemy AI is actually very coordinated. The only bot I would consider is Guardian. (a) it has 16 energy out of the box for 2x RM8. I could upgrade my Paragon to 3*, but I won't because I don't see Paragon in my future. (b) If an enemy gets close (#1 defense against Mortars), you can hit them with your ability and hope that help arrives.
Consider 2 Guardian Mortar builds. They keep a distance of ~30m to each other. If you get between them, they can alternate their abilities. If you get outside them, you'll be in range of one of them. Either way they kill you. And it's fairly hard to keep between 30m and 45m of a moving target, moving in circles unpredictably.
Not sure if this was an AI. I've never seen this before. But I do think if I wanted to troll games, I'd squad with somebody and we'll roll out Mortar Guardians at the same time.
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 28, 2020 4:25:59 GMT -5
frunobulax, they're definitely AI. I've been keeping a mental note of names I see on my main account and F2P alt account. The only human I've seen run Rocket Mortars was running RM10/Jav6 on a rank 3 Paragon. What I've come to realize, is that outside of the oddball AI that has a full rank on me in terms of firepower, I haven't been giving them nearly enough credit. They're not ~smart~ smart, but they definitely have basic coordinated tactical movements down. With 2 AI guardians with RM, that I know are AI because the name pops up on my alt with 700-1200 power, and my main with 1400-1700 power, they'll do exactly what you described, until they drag you close enough to a spawn point, tank, or into the sight line of long arms. The AI are dumb as rocks on both sides when we first boot up the game. They get smarter, make more coordinated plays. And are crueler the further along you go. I had a (dookie) time on the cargo container map(the flat one without tunnels that has a ceiling on one side and a ramp on the other) because even against teams I know were 100% AI, they kept formations that were extremely aggravating to try to break. One example was: Guardian with RM on one side. Paragon with Long arms on the other, open side. 2 Jugs in center, one with Plasma cannons, one with Missile Rack 8. One Killshot with Pulse Cannon 8s that would go back and forth across center, shooting at anything approaching the Paragon, which would make the Missile Rack Jug focus that passage, and actively knife fighting anything approaching the Mortar Guardian, which would draw the Plasma Jug to move towards the covered side where the Guardian was chucking ã??dookieã? from. Try to fight thr Jugs: Get Mortared. Try to flank the Jugs on one side: Get punched by a sniper. Try the other side: Have a Killshot pelt you, daring you to get within charging distance, while one of the Jugs moves to flank you. Try to take out the Killshot with Javelins: It uses walls, and ceiling of the covered side as cover, and will dance between the Jugs to throw off your targeting waiting for the next salvo from any of it's allied to ?dookie? on you. Take the AI seriously.
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Post by mechtout on Aug 28, 2020 8:47:35 GMT -5
Wow coordinated ai, no wonder the game runs so smooth, these developers can program. Ive felt at times that i was the only human blue because it seemed every red knew my location and would focus on me no matter what other blues were around. Kinda creepy. Squading actually helps a lot because good teammates and cooordination makes things go way smoother. I kinda like this PVE aspect of the game if you squad.
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 28, 2020 8:58:26 GMT -5
Wow coordinated ai, no wonder the game runs so smooth, these developers can program. Ive felt at times that i was the only human blue because it seemed every red knew my location and would focus on me no matter what other blues were around. Kinda creepy. Squading actually helps a lot because good teammates and cooordination makes things go way smoother. I kinda like this PVE aspect of the game if you squad. Yea. AI with outstandingly strong mechs is the outlier. I started winning more games with fairly even scores when I stopped trying to All-star, and actually thought about what my AI compadres usually do from map to map, and how to compliment that. Dropped guardian first in the desert map and tailed the two Jugs that spawned with me. The friendly Killshot and shadow took the long way around and stole all of the beacons, half of the enemy team died to me and the two Jugs because we quickly KOed their Juggernauts and rushed their spawn before the snipers/mortars could do their usual thing of cheap deaths from nowhere. I don't think the AI is coordinated so much as each mech and loadout AI are programmed to play their parts on behavior trees that progressively open up as you play more. When we start, it's just a cluster of stupid, missing shots and meandering from control point to control point. After a month of playing though, I have to check the friend suggestions after some matches to see if I was fighting an actual person because of their movement patterns. It just seems coordinated because every bot is filling it's role, the snipers try to keep line of sight open, Juggernauts tend to travel in pairs, Shadow only exposes itself when there are bigger threats nearby, so you have to decide if killing it is worth losing a bot. Hell, I've seen killshots and shadows make Hail mary plays if the team is pushing too hard on one side, and have the whole team spawn at ~your~ home beacons. |
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Post by Danny Linguini on Aug 28, 2020 10:00:10 GMT -5
frunobulax , they're definitely AI. I've been keeping a mental note of names I see on my main account and F2P alt account. The only human I've seen run Rocket Mortars was running RM10/Jav6 on a rank 3 Paragon. What I've come to realize, is that outside of the oddball AI that has a full rank on me in terms of firepower, I haven't been giving them nearly enough credit. They're not ~smart~ smart, but they definitely have basic coordinated tactical movements down. With 2 AI guardians with RM, that I know are AI because the name pops up on my alt with 700-1200 power, and my main with 1400-1700 power, they'll do exactly what you described, until they drag you close enough to a spawn point, tank, or into the sight line of long arms. The AI are dumb as rocks on both sides when we first boot up the game. They get smarter, make more coordinated plays. And are crueler the further along you go. I had a (dookie) time on the cargo container map(the flat one without tunnels that has a ceiling on one side and a ramp on the other) because even against teams I know were 100% AI, they kept formations that were extremely aggravating to try to break. One example was: Guardian with RM on one side. Paragon with Long arms on the other, open side. 2 Jugs in center, one with Plasma cannons, one with Missile Rack 8. One Killshot with Pulse Cannon 8s that would go back and forth across center, shooting at anything approaching the Paragon, which would make the Missile Rack Jug focus that passage, and actively knife fighting anything approaching the Mortar Guardian, which would draw the Plasma Jug to move towards the covered side where the Guardian was chucking ã??dookieã? from. Try to fight thr Jugs: Get Mortared. Try to flank the Jugs on one side: Get punched by a sniper. Try the other side: Have a Killshot pelt you, daring you to get within charging distance, while one of the Jugs moves to flank you. Try to take out the Killshot with Javelins: It uses walls, and ceiling of the covered side as cover, and will dance between the Jugs to throw off your targeting waiting for the next salvo from any of it's allied to ?dookie? on you. Take the AI seriously. This explains the well-coordinated assaults on the blue spawn areas I occasionally see. Three or more of them converge, and usually focus on one target at a time to be assured of kills. The only defense would be an equal or greater number of well-armed blues, also coordinating some kind of defense, which will never happen on a team of randoms, and would be difficult at best even for a human squad. Most of the time the team is disbursed around the map, and AI seems to know who’s a sitting duck with no help around. It’s impressive to see in action, but frustrating as hell to play against. If nothing else, it’s a hell of a sales tactic! |
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 28, 2020 10:21:47 GMT -5
Danny Linguini, strength in numbers. Once they start playing like people, it's time to stop treating them like they're bots. Whenever you die it's really, really important to know what's going on. MD, Guardian, Javelin, Thermal lance, or sniper fire can turn the tides when your teammates are engaged with tanks and attackers. Flanking and stealing a beacons when the enemy makes a hard push towards your spawn is important to keep the beacon timer from running away from you. Sometimes the best play is disengaging from a battle your teammates have in the bag while piloting something like Killshot and rushing back to your own spawn to protect your beacons from the shadow that ran across the lane of the map opposite the one you're pushing. I love dropping Killshot and grabbing home or center at the start of every match, but that's not really a viable strategy most of the time. Sometimes it's better to gun down the Killshots/Shadows that will be barrelling towards us by sniping a lane. Sometimes it's tailing the brawlers with Guardian or Panther to make sure they beat out the first wave of enemy Brawlers. Sometimes it's doubling back after a beacon and flanking from another angle. The bot speeds and variety of weapon functions in this game make battlefield awareness important in a way I used to hope War Robots would accomplish.
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Post by Deadeye on Aug 28, 2020 10:21:59 GMT -5
I agree RMs need a nerf of some sort. I wouldn't say broken, but in the hands of the AI, they can be devastating if not adjusted for. I've got a couple simple rules I've been utilizing that has helped me minimize my risk of getting RMed into oblivion. - Don't be first - There's always a rush to get to the battle and start fighting immediately. I've been going for the back/secondary home beacons (ones with cover or no direct lines of sight) first and then slowly moving to center to attack flankers. Usually there are AI who push to center early. Let them die.
- Take the road less traveled - Take cover and let the enemy come to you. They will be exposed due to line of sight and you won't be, especially if you're peeking around a corner and watching them come toward you. Also, RMs can't curve like Javelins. Putting yourself against a wall while you walk changes angles and can prevent RMs from hitting you quite as well. Also, it probably doesn't need to be said, but sit under something when you can.
- Watch your back - Always know where enemies are as best you can. This is a big change from War Robots since you can't always see the enemies. I often times find myself counting visible reds to make sure I have them all accounted for. As soon as some scout red puts you on the enemy radar, you're sure to get lit up like a Christmas tree so keep that head on a swivel.
I'm sure there are some other tips, like noting which red just killed you with the RMs (because he'll likely be doing it the whole match), but those are the 3 that I've benefited the most from so far. |
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Post by hicycles on Aug 28, 2020 14:59:13 GMT -5
How can you id ai players? I'm thinking it might be hangar strength between tournament and quick match. I have noticed the same names in both modes, but noticed vastly different hangar strengths. Usually 3-500 in tournament, and 1100+ in quick match. Is this an indicator?
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 28, 2020 15:08:04 GMT -5
How can you id ai players? I'm thinking it might be hangar strength between tournament and quick match. I have noticed the same names in both modes, but noticed vastly different hangar strengths. Usually 3-500 in tournament, and 1100+ in quick match. Is this an indicator? All of the AI have bad puns for names or are very, very generic statements. We could start a thread compiling their names, but I feel like that would be a lot of work for nothing. After you finish a match, go to the friends window and open the "recommended" tab. If the name doesn't show up there after a match, it's a bot. |
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Post by Deadeye on Aug 28, 2020 15:13:27 GMT -5
How can you id ai players? I'm thinking it might be hangar strength between tournament and quick match. I have noticed the same names in both modes, but noticed vastly different hangar strengths. Usually 3-500 in tournament, and 1100+ in quick match. Is this an indicator? All of the AI have bad puns for names or are very, very generic statements. We could start a thread compiling their names, but I feel like that would be a lot of work for nothing. After you finish a match, go to the friends window and open the "recommended" tab. If the name doesn't show up there after a match, it's a bot. I considered starting the same thread and came to the same conclusion. Once you know what to look for, you'll start seeing the same AI over and over and over again. Also, I've noticed that after the game, many AI are almost already decided on if they are going to "play another match" or not. Hoomans seem to trickle in more. |
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 28, 2020 15:17:58 GMT -5
All of the AI have bad puns for names or are very, very generic statements. We could start a thread compiling their names, but I feel like that would be a lot of work for nothing. After you finish a match, go to the friends window and open the "recommended" tab. If the name doesn't show up there after a match, it's a bot. I considered starting the same thread and came to the same conclusion. Once you know what to look for, you'll start seeing the same AI over and over and over again. Also, I've noticed that after the game, many AI are almost already decided on if they are going to "play another match" or not. Hoomans seem to trickle in more. Some of their names are less common, but when you see them, welp, you've hit the death wall. Not sure if it's the same for everyone. "CharmdImSur" and "Ter0rt0ys" are the bane of my existence. They only pop up like twice a day for me. Sometimes they're normal, other times they're decked out in rank 5 bots with end-game setups. |
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Aug 28, 2020 15:19:16 GMT -5
I agree RMs need a nerf of some sort. I wouldn't say broken, but in the hands of the AI, they can be devastating if not adjusted for. I've got a couple simple rules I've been utilizing that has helped me minimize my risk of getting RMed into oblivion. - Don't be first - There's always a rush to get to the battle and start fighting immediately. I've been going for the back/secondary home beacons (ones with cover or no direct lines of sight) first and then slowly moving to center to attack flankers. Usually there are AI who push to center early. Let them die.
- Take the road less traveled - Take cover and let the enemy come to you. They will be exposed due to line of sight and you won't be, especially if you're peeking around a corner and watching them come toward you. Also, RMs can't curve like Javelins. Putting yourself against a wall while you walk changes angles and can prevent RMs from hitting you quite as well. Also, it probably doesn't need to be said, but sit under something when you can.
- Watch your back - Always know where enemies are as best you can. This is a big change from War Robots since you can't always see the enemies. I often times find myself counting visible reds to make sure I have them all accounted for. As soon as some scout red puts you on the enemy radar, you're sure to get lit up like a Christmas tree so keep that head on a swivel.
I'm sure there are some other tips, like noting which red just killed you with the RMs (because he'll likely be doing it the whole match), but those are the 3 that I've benefited the most from so far. Also, I posted a vid a bit back by KSO about standing, nay straddling, the Panther Stasis Fence. It appears that the RMs will not hit you if you do so. I have not been able to personally confirm... but it sure looked like it worked. I'll find it and link to that post, here, in a moment. |
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Post by Deadeye on Aug 28, 2020 15:29:02 GMT -5
I agree RMs need a nerf of some sort. I wouldn't say broken, but in the hands of the AI, they can be devastating if not adjusted for. I've got a couple simple rules I've been utilizing that has helped me minimize my risk of getting RMed into oblivion. - Don't be first - There's always a rush to get to the battle and start fighting immediately. I've been going for the back/secondary home beacons (ones with cover or no direct lines of sight) first and then slowly moving to center to attack flankers. Usually there are AI who push to center early. Let them die.
- Take the road less traveled - Take cover and let the enemy come to you. They will be exposed due to line of sight and you won't be, especially if you're peeking around a corner and watching them come toward you. Also, RMs can't curve like Javelins. Putting yourself against a wall while you walk changes angles and can prevent RMs from hitting you quite as well. Also, it probably doesn't need to be said, but sit under something when you can.
- Watch your back - Always know where enemies are as best you can. This is a big change from War Robots since you can't always see the enemies. I often times find myself counting visible reds to make sure I have them all accounted for. As soon as some scout red puts you on the enemy radar, you're sure to get lit up like a Christmas tree so keep that head on a swivel.
I'm sure there are some other tips, like noting which red just killed you with the RMs (because he'll likely be doing it the whole match), but those are the 3 that I've benefited the most from so far. Also, I posted a vid a bit back by KSO about standing, nay straddling, the Panther Stasis Fence. It appears that the RMs will not hit you if you do so. I have not been able to personally confirm... but it sure looked like it worked. I'll find it and link to that post, here, in a moment. I watched it and got it to work...once. I think it works if the morter hits the shield, but if it lands on the ground on either side of the shield, well, you get the idea. Still, it doesn't help much if you don't know it's coming. Every little bit helps though! |
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Post by [CK]erazor on Aug 29, 2020 11:17:36 GMT -5
Anyone else thinks that these ?female dog?es are way OP? Maybe not if you get to 5* bots, but they become available fairly early in the game. Makes it hard to cap a beacon if a guy with 2 Mortars sits back at their spawn, and takes shots at any bot that tries to cap a beacon. Is this the instant death from above bull「dookie」? Yeah, I'm back playing BoT. War Robots sucks, Mech Arena sucks, too. I like the 60 fps and that there's no lag. But it's too Fortnite/comic style and dying in one second from some 「dookie」 falling from the sky is not what I expect from a mecha game. It's bull「dookie」. |
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 29, 2020 11:33:54 GMT -5
I really don't have the same issues with Mortars that you guys have. It can be agitating, but there are ways to play around them. It's no different than avoiding snipers really.
There's a lot of counter play in this game. Can't adress every problem with a hammer, as every situation isn't a nail.
Also, weapon damage doesn't grow as fast as bot health. For example RPG6 and Plasma cannon6 at rank 3 only deals about 2.5k damage per cycle than their base health version, while bots gain an average of 10k health for the same level discrepancy, with bots like Juggernaut going up almost 20k.
The gap between weapon damage and bot damage widens in favor of bot health, where in other games it's in favor of the weapons.
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Post by frunobulax on Aug 29, 2020 11:41:00 GMT -5
I really don't have the same issues with Mortars that you guys have. It can be agitating, but there are ways to play around them. It's no different than avoiding snipers really. There's a lot of counter play in this game. Can't adress every problem with a hammer, as every situation isn't a nail. First rule of a shooter game: There is a risk-reward-balance for weapons. Weapons that have the highest damage potential require the highest risk (exposure). Mortars violate this rule, badly. |
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Post by Redfiend on Aug 29, 2020 11:44:15 GMT -5
I really don't have the same issues with Mortars that you guys have. It can be agitating, but there are ways to play around them. It's no different than avoiding snipers really. There's a lot of counter play in this game. Can't adress every problem with a hammer, as every situation isn't a nail. First rule of a shooter game: There is a risk-reward-balance for weapons. Weapons that have the highest damage potential require the highest risk (exposure). Mortars violate this rule, badly. They really don't unless you're still on bots that aren't rank 3+, it's going to feel that way because Mortars start at rank 3 levels. Same difference with getting canned by Missile racks, which are rank 4, and early game javelins. Once you progress later in the game, they become less of an issue. Are they still stronger than they should be? Yes, are they absolutely OP? Only when they have the upgrade advantage, just like every other weapon. Guardian with Mortars is the first A-coin setup the AI introduces to you. They become more infrequent as your AI get beefier and start using more Premium bot/weapon setups. You're going to feel the same way when facing your first set of Zephyrs with Stasis beam/Thermals and Shadows running around with leveled Javelin 4/6 Amended my last comment as well. |
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Post by frunobulax on Aug 29, 2020 12:02:29 GMT -5
First rule of a shooter game: There is a risk-reward-balance for weapons. Weapons that have the highest damage potential require the highest risk (exposure). Mortars violate this rule, badly. They really don't unless you're still on bots that aren't rank 3+, Mortars become available very early in the game. None of my bots is 3*. I get killed left and right by the ?fluffernutter?ing things, while walking towards the shooter.
I don't give a ?dookie? if this gets better as I hit 3* bots, I won't be around this long most likely. As a game designer, one should make sure that players get hooked and continue to play past the first 1-2 weeks. At least for me, RM deaths frustrate me enough to shut down the game for the day, and very soon perhaps permanently. Guess I'll give BoT another shot.
The "bam, you're dead" logic is not what I'm looking for. Old War Robots games were epic, back and forth for 10 minutes and usually nailbiters. You saw enemies coming, and could employ cover to improve your survival chances. If you didn't see an enemy, the damage it could do was very limited. Don't see those epic battles this in Mech Arena. All I see is that I'm full health, and then I'm suddenly dead, hit from RMs or dual Longarms from bots that I never saw.
If those are AIs, then they're doing something seriously wrong. Give AIs stronger bots, more HP, but don't allow them to 1-shot human players with perfect targeting.
And I do see Shadows already. They're annoying, but nowhere near as frustrating as RMs.
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Post by mechtout on Aug 29, 2020 13:17:12 GMT -5
I might lose one of my bots to an RM but its not that many that i would call it a major issue. Many matches i lose none too. Also need to reiterate squad play if you are on a losing streak, most likely you are the only human on the red side, those ai bots all hone in on you.
The game is sometimes like a war games or resident evil movie, where you need to figure out what the central mind of the system is trying to do to you lol.
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