huyeote
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Post by huyeote on Apr 16, 2020 6:16:17 GMT -5
Hi there, Have you ever asked the same question in subject? If so, you may be interested in what I'm going to show in a coming series. I have been playing War Robots for over 6 months and I love this game so I spend a lot time every day to fight and level up. As someone who doesn't have a deep pocket to spend on gaming, I often wonder what is the best weapon for my robot, say Ares or Phantom in the sense that it produces most damage while costing least in silver to level up. I want to spend all hard-fought silver earned from various battles to the right weapon so I won't regret later on. And I found there are a lot War Robots players asked same question over and over again in various forums and Youtube. Though those War Robots gurus did provide their insight by showing shoot-out video to compare how quickly to destroy a target with like-for-like weapons in various setup and various scenarios, I feel I can actually calculate it based on data because the game is actually the result of mathematics. So I collect basic facts of each weapon I'm interested to use or to acquire and build a model to simulate the cumulative damage over time and distance. The model does provide some very interesting or awakening insight. And it helps explain Pixonic's much-hated behavior in nerfing weapons, eg. nerf Avenger in near future. Before I show you some interesting result, let me explain something you need know about the model. • Firstly, what it matters is a weapon's cumulative damage inflicted on target over time. Comparing damage per second doesn't make practical sense as a weapon may have very high burst damage per second but it may have long reload time, eg. Corona after nerf. • Then cumulative damage of a particular weapon is affected by 3 key parameters. That is, level, distance and firing time. • The comparison of weapons from my model is based on data on paper. Everything is static and taken at face value. A comparison may show weapon A produce 20% more cumulative damage than weapon B but you may still go with weapon B because you must choose your weapon based on your play style or your bot. The primary reason is the game is dynamic; your opponent in the game won't stand still waiting for you to unload all ammunition of your weapons. • The facts and parameters used by the model are all from War Robots Wiki. • Some weapons have to wait full-reload is completed before firing again, eg. Taran and some can fire while loading, eg. Cyro. From time perspective, I assume a weapon in question will first immediately after either full reload completes or first clip is reloaded. • I consider line-of-sight weapons only in the model with focus on those introduced more recently in past 2 years. • I didn't include new weapons like atomizer or those for Titans since I don't have them. • I didn't consider corrosion damage or firing acceleration for those weapons that have these features. • Some weapons are affected by distance and spread, eg. Scourge and Storm. I use the accuracy or surplus/deficit in damage disclosed in War Robots wiki to simulate the increasing/decreasing damage over distance. When I tested true damage in the game I found there are a lot more discount or reduction in damage than disclosed. It leads to tuning of parameter in the mode in future. Oh, one more thing to note. I did this as a hobby and I have a tiring full time job. So I may not be able to post update very often. Please bear with me. Now let's look at comparison of 3 medium weapons, ie. Punisher-T, Corona (after nerf) and Corona (before nerf). A picture is worth a thousand words so I'll use graphs to tell stories. This first graph contains lines that indicate cumulative damage these 3 weapons deal at a target in 150m for 10 seconds at all levels in both MK1 and MK2. The vertical bar at background is the cumulative silver required to upgrade to the level. It's a shock to me that Punisher-T produce almost double the damage of Corona before nerf at 1/6 of silver at MK2 level 12. Of course I know I need to discount damage of Punisher-T due to spread but even after the adjustment I still foresee the machine gun produce more damage than Corona. One more interesting revelation is how bad is the nerf to Corona. Now Corona has 27% reduction in damage at MK2 level 12 in this scenario due to the nerf. No wonder a lot players have ditched once-favorite shot gun! This graph shows comparison of cumulative damage dealt by three weapons at MK1 level 10 over different distance. Clearly Corona should be best used in close combat within 150m and Punisher-T can push the range to 200m (without considering discount due to spread). The third graph shows cumulative damage three weapons at MK1 level 10 produce at a target in 150m over time. The blue line goes plateau for some time because Punisher-T needs time to reload in full. While both version of Corona has relatively steady slop due to firing while loading feature. Bear in mind the data you see hasn't been adjusted for spread yet. I will post more comparison result if there is good feedback from the forum.
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Post by Browncoats4ever on Apr 16, 2020 6:19:10 GMT -5
The best weapon in War Robots is and will always be...a credit card!
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Post by kingjames4 on Apr 16, 2020 7:08:19 GMT -5
What did I just read? How can you call this a definitive guide and compare only 2 weapons?
You obviously spent a lot of time writing this so I'll try to be nice and stop there. I do appreciate a good graph, but from play experience, corona beats p-t everytime.
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Post by Method Games[YT] on Apr 16, 2020 7:20:03 GMT -5
You lost me at "「man juice」.damage"
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Post by BB on Apr 16, 2020 8:17:31 GMT -5
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Post by OU812? on Apr 16, 2020 8:35:42 GMT -5
Thanks huyeote!
Always good to remember that the Punisher-t offers players one of the best investments in silver. It’s biggest drawback is the 10–second reload. If you can plan for that you’ve got a very useful weapon at a low cost.
I’ve been impressed with AGs, Leeches, Tyrs, Fenrirs armed with punisher builds.
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Zavratatar
GI. Patton
Posts: 148
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Favorite robot: Strider
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Post by Zavratatar on Apr 16, 2020 8:42:49 GMT -5
Mmmmm graphs and statistics. Please continue. And did you do this just so you could make the titles for your graphs? As already noted this is not a very definitive guide yet... Maybe change the title to something a little more modest until you've added at least half of the weapons in the game.
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Post by Koalabear on Apr 16, 2020 8:47:54 GMT -5
Thanks huyeote for taking the time to do the analysis and for posting it here. Analyzing the "best" weapon in War Robots is tough because you can't just look at one aspect of a weapon. There are so many factors and arguably the most important factor is how a weapon performs in real game scenarios. Looking at total sustained damage is a good starting point, and if you're F2P, it's a very important factor. But, know that if you only focus on using and leveling cheaper weapons, it will greatly affect your playstyle. I suggest looking at the videos that show side by side comparisons like the ones posted by AYGIR. www.youtube.com/channel/UC-5X4OB344DrJ-P78DNbTKwThey show just how fast damage can be dealt by different weapons. I know it's still not real game scenarios as the vids don't show any use of tactics, but they do give you a very good idea of how different weapons perform against each other.
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Post by Bui Dui on Apr 16, 2020 9:13:56 GMT -5
What did I just read? How can you call this a definitive guide and compare only 2 weapons? You obviously spent a lot of time writing this so I'll try to be nice and stop there. I do appreciate a good graph, but from play experience, corona beats p-t everytime. Your play experience differs from mine If you stick both weapons in the enemies face, you can do almost a mil dmg more with a punisher t each match than you can with a corona (both lvl12 mk 1). On the topic - there is one thing I have always wondered about, why weapons get compared by using dps, cycle dmg, etc. and other stats, which differ from weapon to weapon so much that it's close to absurd to compare some of those weapons to each other this way at all. I can determine the best burst weapon, best LR weapon, etc. but can I know for sure based on such stats if, for example, an avalanche is better than a dragoon and how much? This is also one of the reasons I do disagree with lots of information in this forum, as the stats provided seem too situational for me and don't reflect the real situations I face in games, sometimes they even have misguided me, because a lot of times only part of the big picture seems to get analyzed. This brings up a question: if a match length is 10 minutes, why nobody (at least I haven't seen it here) takes into account max theoretical damage in a match, e.g. punisher T firing non-stop all the time for 10 min can do x damage, orkans - y, corona -z etc. Then it is up to the player to decide for himself how the exact weapon fits a players playstyle, as everybody knows best about himself how much time % they spend in a game hiding, camping, staying out of minumal and/or optimal range (for puns, scourges etc.). You can do 1'883'507 damage in 10 min with an avalanche and 1'866'425 dmg in 10 min with a Dragoon (both lvl 12 mk1), and these numbers give far better knowledge of those weapons than numbers for burst damage (avalanche - 31'040, dragoon - 45'940) or burst dps (avalanche - 9700, dragoon - 9188) or continous dps (avalanche - 3104, dragoon - 3063). At first seems dragoon is far better (burst dmg is almost 1,5 times higher, but difference in others is less than 10%), so not providing all information can mislead into thinking that dragoon is a much better weapon than Avalanche and your score will be better with it, which is wrong. There was a stat "damage per minute" used some time ago, that almost gave the data I need, it was just off a little as it sometimes skipped a reloading cycle every minute. Haven't seen that for awhile.
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Post by The VVatcher on Apr 16, 2020 9:49:11 GMT -5
What did I just read? How can you call this a definitive guide and compare only 2 weapons? You obviously spent a lot of time writing this so I'll try to be nice and stop there. I do appreciate a good graph, but from play experience, corona beats p-t everytime. It’s really a Corona nerf rant.
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Post by kingjames4 on Apr 16, 2020 9:59:22 GMT -5
What did I just read? How can you call this a definitive guide and compare only 2 weapons? You obviously spent a lot of time writing this so I'll try to be nice and stop there. I do appreciate a good graph, but from play experience, corona beats p-t everytime. Your play experience differs from mine If you stick both weapons in the enemies face, you can do almost a mil dmg more with a punisher t each match than you can with a corona (both lvl12 mk 1). In what kind of matchup do you only play one bot the whole game while going face to face with a red and never letting up on the fire button? Coronas benefits are more then just damage. High burst damage, LD, and auto reload all make coronas more deadly then P-Ts during most battles. A good Corona pilot will use cover! They'll root you from distance, close the distance using cover while reloading, then root you again and kill you in 5 seconds up close and personal while dodging half your damage. Unless your bot is way better, a good Corona pilot will win every time. There's a reason it cost so much more to upgrade then the P-T. The nerf has hurt it, but it's still a good weapon when used correctly.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2020 10:03:53 GMT -5
Everyone knows the best weapon in game, well second best behind $$$$$$$, is a max Vengeance......
Nice first post, though!
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Post by Oliver Kloesov on Apr 16, 2020 10:04:23 GMT -5
Graphs? Charts? Math? Free for my consumption? Check! Check! Check! Check! huyeote: Thanks for your efforts. You're right, by the numbers the Corona has taken quite the nerf. But like all the weapons in Walking-and-Flying-War-Robots, you gotta play to your weapons strengths. Shredders are really quite poopy at 501m. Coronas can still crush folks, but you have to concentrate on their burst ability and not their sustained damage. Punisher Ts are still hellafun unless you find it necessary to max out Scourges, etc. Bring money.
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Post by Bui Dui on Apr 16, 2020 13:45:32 GMT -5
Your play experience differs from mine If you stick both weapons in the enemies face, you can do almost a mil dmg more with a punisher t each match than you can with a corona (both lvl12 mk 1). In what kind of matchup do you only play one bot the whole game while going face to face with a red and never letting up on the fire button? Coronas benefits are more then just damage. High burst damage, LD, and auto reload all make coronas more deadly then P-Ts during most battles. A good Corona pilot will use cover! They'll root you from distance, close the distance using cover while reloading, then root you again and kill you in 5 seconds up close and personal while dodging half your damage. Unless your bot is way better, a good Corona pilot will win every time. There's a reason it cost so much more to upgrade then the P-T. The nerf has hurt it, but it's still a good weapon when used correctly. I don't, I just gave the numbers. Partly because they explain OPs graph results you seem to be surprised about, partly because I get better score with puns that shotties, partly because I agree with the graph and you, as I understood, don't. Topic is not about best burst weapon, and that is why corona loses to pun T in the first round. Seems to me now that OPs topic was exactly for someone like you to find and think about. Rest of my comment, although not addressed directly to you, kinda explains why I gave an example like that and why I won't give a direct answer to you question - it's a situation by which you get the math for a base number (maximum potential damage or MPD) from whom you take away all those situations you can't do damage, because of bot abilities, map specifics (like time to get in range to shoot smth at the start), enemy AM population, etc. How you describe using corona just ads to the math, like, if you shoot from distance you lose some potential damage you could have done by shooting from 10m (let's call it x). What you get is MPD minus x damage (MPD-x) which shows what is the damage amount you really do in a match. X is different for other weapons, other bots, other tactics etc., every moment you are not using red button and dealing damage ads to x. As everyone skills and battle situations (play experience) differ, results differ, and when you say coronas are better because they have burst, auto reload, LD , you speak of stats that allow you to take away less x from the max potential damage in situations, that would take away more x if you used puns. But puns have different use than coronas, you don't use them the same, and they don't need no high burst, no auto reload, no LD, you don't rate puns by those stats. In other words, if MPD-x is higher for puns than coronas, puns are better. MPD for a Pun T is around 4'000'000 (@ mk1 lvl 12). For corona MPD is around 3'000'000 at the same lvl. So if x is the same for both weapons, pun T trumps corona by a million damage points. Puns probably have higher x score than coronas for some pilots, but a million is still a huge difference to consider, even for a pilot with supreme skills at using coronas. And no, coronas are not better because they cost more to upgrade, I will take it as an insult if I'll be asked to explain why this argument is wrong. P.S. This is exactly why I wanted to leave a comment I did about rethinking what are the base stats to rate weapons according to.
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huyeote
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Post by huyeote on Apr 16, 2020 20:33:12 GMT -5
Continue.... I know the teaser I throw out in first post can't called "definitive" in anyway. I'll try to make it so in future posts collectively. So, let me throw out 2 more charts. They are statistics of heavy weapons I'm interested at MK1 level 10. The one below shows the cumulative cost in silver to upgrade to this level and cumulative damage at 150m firing for 5 seconds. Personally, I find my bots can only shoot at target for around 5 seconds in real battles. If I can't kill my target, I either run and hide or get killed by a more powerful bot, eg. MK2 level 12 monster. You can see ranking in terms of total damage dealt. Unsurprisingly, Glacier comes on top with damage 44.8% higher than the no. 2 place Avenger. The second chart below shows the statistics in same set up but firing for 10 seconds. Since firing time is longer, Avenger surpasses Glacier as no. 1 choice. Note that I haven't adjusted the spread issue for machine guns. In real battle, your experience may show Glacier produces kills quicker than Avenger because the spread of bullets reduce true damage inflicted to targets.
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huyeote
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Post by huyeote on Apr 16, 2020 20:35:57 GMT -5
What did I just read? How can you call this a definitive guide and compare only 2 weapons? You obviously spent a lot of time writing this so I'll try to be nice and stop there. I do appreciate a good graph, but from play experience, corona beats p-t everytime. Give it some time and I'll make it definitive.
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Post by RightOn on Apr 16, 2020 20:38:57 GMT -5
The best weapon in the game is probably a pair of maxed redeemers. Or triple on Falcon if you obtained enough balls.
But what do I know.
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huyeote
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Post by huyeote on Apr 16, 2020 20:52:02 GMT -5
Thanks huyeote! Always good to remember that the Punisher-t offers players one of the best investments in silver. It’s biggest drawback is the 10–second reload. If you can plan for that you’ve got a very useful weapon at a low cost. I’ve been impressed with AGs, Leeches, Tyrs, Fenrirs armed with punisher builds. Exactly. I've been shredded within seconds by bots with MK2 level 12 Punisher-T with lock-down ammo and possibly sharp-shooter skills. I was so impressed by how powerful these "ancient" weapons can be. Let alone Avenger!
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huyeote
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Post by huyeote on Apr 16, 2020 20:54:29 GMT -5
The best weapon in the game is probably a pair of maxed redeemers. Or triple on Falcon if you obtained enough balls. But what do I know. I'm impressed by both redeemer and glacier on Au Jun. I feel Glacier Au Jun kills me quicker than Redeemer. This is proved by the stats.
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Post by RightOn on Apr 16, 2020 20:56:38 GMT -5
The best weapon in the game is probably a pair of maxed redeemers. Or triple on Falcon if you obtained enough balls. But what do I know. I'm impressed by both redeemer and glacier on Au Jun. I feel Glacier Au Jun kills me quicker than Redeemer. This is proved by the stats. It's not just about burst damage, like your OP was calling out I completely agree puni's are some of the best weapons, thunders too. You can't argue with cost Just look at my chart in signature bud You can't have flat comparisons in War Robots though. You have a slew of 「dookie」 going on, increased ballistics to shield damage, rocket splash, burst rates, reload times, physical coverage, all the while syncing it to the bot in particular, having ability times, defense systems, and arbitrary uses etc.
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huyeote
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Post by huyeote on Apr 16, 2020 20:58:12 GMT -5
Thanks huyeote for taking the time to do the analysis and for posting it here. Analyzing the "best" weapon in War Robots is tough because you can't just look at one aspect of a weapon. There are so many factors and arguably the most important factor is how a weapon performs in real game scenarios. Looking at total sustained damage is a good starting point, and if you're F2P, it's a very important factor. But, know that if you only focus on using and leveling cheaper weapons, it will greatly affect your playstyle. I suggest looking at the videos that show side by side comparisons like the ones posted by AYGIR. www.youtube.com/channel/UC-5X4OB344DrJ-P78DNbTKwThey show just how fast damage can be dealt by different weapons. I know it's still not real game scenarios as the vids don't show any use of tactics, but they do give you a very good idea of how different weapons perform against each other. Thanks for the advice. I do watch them a lot. But the problem is they can only compare 2 at a time. None of the videos answers my answer "which one is the best?" So I decided to build a model myself to compare all of them at a glance.
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huyeote
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Post by huyeote on Apr 16, 2020 21:00:18 GMT -5
Mmmmm graphs and statistics. Please continue. And did you do this just so you could make the titles for your graphs? As already noted this is not a very definitive guide yet... Maybe change the title to something a little more modest until you've added at least half of the weapons in the game. I'm setting a goal for me to reach. lol
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huyeote
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Post by huyeote on Apr 16, 2020 21:13:33 GMT -5
Continue... Now some comparison for medium weapons. Set up: MK1 level 10 Distance: 150m First graph shows stats for firing for 5 sec. Cryo comes as no. 1 in this scenario with Igniter as runner-up. Third place is taken by Punisher-T. Second graph is for firing for 10 sec. In this prolonged scenario, Igniter surpasses as no. 1 in cumulative damage and Punisher-T steals the second place. Cyro dropped to no. 4 due to incremental firing while loading after burst full unload in 4.3 seconds. Scourge lands in the third place due to the increased damage in short distance. BTW, I'm always impressed by Leech with 4 maxed Scourge and try to avoid them whenever I see one in battle field.
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Zavratatar
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Posts: 148
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Post by Zavratatar on Apr 17, 2020 3:02:00 GMT -5
You're keeping a good pace and this is interesting data. Good work!
I did something similar a while ago where I wanted to find out how many seconds I have to fire for to do more cumulative damage with an Ember than I do with a Glacier, maybe that's a data point that would interest you, in addition to comparing static 5s or 10s scenarios.
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Post by Koalabear on Apr 17, 2020 8:49:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice. I do watch them a lot. But the problem is they can only compare 2 at a time. None of the videos answers my answer "which one is the best?" So I decided to build a model myself to compare all of them at a glance. The only one who can answer that for you is you. Everyone has different playstyles and preferences. For example, while I like to brawl as much as the next person, with my playstyle and relatively low levels, the "best" weapons for me are MR energy. One of my favourite weapons right now is the Pulsar. The best way to find the best weapon for you is to just play them. Looking at numbers only won't cut it. For example, look at the Molot/Tempest class of weapons. On paper, they do amazing damage and theoretically would be amazing weapons. But, they only become somewhat effective from 600m down, even though their top range is 800m. At around 500m, their damage is about 50% of what they are capable of, and around 300m, they do close to 100% damage. But, at that range, you will be wiped out before you can even dish out a quarter of your potential by just about every other weapon out there. The charts and analysis is great as they provide great references with everything all laid out. I suggest looking at the wiki (if you haven't already) to get the most up to date numbers so that you don't have do much of the number crunching yourself. Play the Skirmish as much as possible, try out Hangar X in Custom matches, (try to buddy up with someone for full effect). Don't get too caught up with the stats. Stats and numbers is one way game makers suck people into their games, and no matter how high your numbers are, there will always be someone higher out there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 9:29:04 GMT -5
The human touching the phone/device is the most important weapon.....if you suck, your bots will follow suit.
Always git gud first!
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Post by alphaomega001 on Apr 17, 2020 10:02:37 GMT -5
Continue... Now some comparison for medium weapons. Set up: MK1 level 10 Distance: 150m First graph shows stats for firing for 5 sec. Cryo comes as no. 1 in this scenario with Igniter as runner-up. Third place is taken by Punisher-T. Second graph is for firing for 10 sec. In this prolonged scenario, Igniter surpasses as no. 1 in cumulative damage and Punisher-T steals the second place. Cyro dropped to no. 4 due to incremental firing while loading after burst full unload in 4.3 seconds. Scourge lands in the third place due to the increased damage in short distance. BTW, I'm always impressed by Leech with 4 maxed Scourge and try to avoid them whenever I see one in battle field. Of course cryo comes in first they nerfed everything else that was better than it.
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Post by foxypotato on Apr 17, 2020 12:38:24 GMT -5
Clearly the answer is Tulumbas. You can get them day one in the game, are viable all the way into Champions League, only cost Ag, have no premium currency medium weapon equivalents, have been viable in every meta and require manual aiming making them a high skill weapon.
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Post by l》THE MACHINE《l on Apr 17, 2020 12:59:57 GMT -5
huyeoteThis is a good post but a bit short sighted. Every weapon can be compared as much as you want but unless you get a setup that allows for every possible difference (range, reload, damage, burst and all the rest) then you won't have a perfect lay out. You can't compare an avenger to a glacier for instance. The avenger can be used at 500m which gives it a huge advantage over glacier and it has sustained damage. Glacier has an extra effect that makes them take more damage and has much higher burst damage. So which is better? There isn't a set in stone answer. If you are using a strider then you have an answer for sure. Glacier will fit how the robot plays better because burst is going to do better. If you are using a fenrir however then it changes, you are going to want more constant damage because thats just how the robot plays. You can't compare the weapons in this game, you just can't. The only answers you should be giving is what weapons work best on the robot a person is using. And the reason that many of us only look at one stat on weapons when comparing them is because we know what robot the weapons are going on. When we know that we can compare the stat that will shine the most on the robot so you can get the best out of a weapon. Eigther way your charts are nice but they just don't cut it in a game that supports so many playstyles and has so many combinations. Thanks for taking the time though, and happy hunting!
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huyeote
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Post by huyeote on Apr 21, 2020 0:24:31 GMT -5
huyeote This is a good post but a bit short sighted. Every weapon can be compared as much as you want but unless you get a setup that allows for every possible difference (range, reload, damage, burst and all the rest) then you won't have a perfect lay out. You can't compare an avenger to a glacier for instance. The avenger can be used at 500m which gives it a huge advantage over glacier and it has sustained damage. Glacier has an extra effect that makes them take more damage and has much higher burst damage. So which is better? There isn't a set in stone answer. If you are using a strider then you have an answer for sure. Glacier will fit how the robot plays better because burst is going to do better. If you are using a fenrir however then it changes, you are going to want more constant damage because thats just how the robot plays. You can't compare the weapons in this game, you just can't. The only answers you should be giving is what weapons work best on the robot a person is using. And the reason that many of us only look at one stat on weapons when comparing them is because we know what robot the weapons are going on. When we know that we can compare the stat that will shine the most on the robot so you can get the best out of a weapon. Eigther way your charts are nice but they just don't cut it in a game that supports so many playstyles and has so many combinations. Thanks for taking the time though, and happy hunting! Thanks for your opinion. I agree with you on most parts as I do pick weapons depending the bot and my play style which is also determined by the bot. The only thing I beg to differ is I feel I can still compare weapons on paper. Take following comparison graphs for some heavy weapons at MK1 level 10 for example. They put Avenger, Glacier and Ember side-by-side and compare cumulative damage they cause to target in 2 variables, ie. distance and firing time. These graphs show clearly Avenger produces more damage than the other two within 200m for firing for 10 sec. In time perspective, Glacier certainly produce way more damage in initial 4 sec and is only surpassed by Avenger after 10 sec. These graphs help me decide to choose Avenger for my T-Falcon that always involves in knife-fight and pick Glacier for Strider who does hit-and-run and can only afford to upload ammunition in discrete pattern for a few seconds. I know these insight from the comparison may seem a no-brainer as a lot player has adopted these weapons on Falcon and Strider. But to me as someone who wants to put some numbers behind decisions, I still think a comparison is necessary to prove or disapprove a theory. Anyway, thanks for the comment.
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