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Post by Shahmatt on Mar 19, 2017 23:39:55 GMT -5
... because that center aligned heavy hard point requires such exposure to use.
Sure they've got plenty of HP to spare but with such a lot of body being exposed in close range maps it doesn't amount to much longevity.
Seems to me they do far better at mid to long range, in particular the Leo, which is such a slow bot.
So why do I see 'knife fighter' repeated so much in the forums? Plenty of other bots can do better by virtue of having their armaments placed on the sides. Am I missing something here?
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Post by osang on Mar 19, 2017 23:50:40 GMT -5
I run Lvl 8 Leo with 3 Lvl 12 magnums with Lvl 10 Thunder and it can kick some serious butt.
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Post by Shahmatt on Mar 20, 2017 0:08:18 GMT -5
I run Lvl 8 Leo with 3 Lvl 12 magnums with Lvl 10 Thunder and it can kick some serious butt. No doubt it has a lot of firepower, but in order to deliver it hp must be sacrificed. You can only last for a very short while this way. I don't think that this is a good strategy. How long do you last before you field your next bot?
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Post by blastronaut on Mar 20, 2017 0:18:57 GMT -5
Shahmatt it has more to do with close range than anything else. Thunder, Orkan, and Pinata are most effective within 200m.
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Post by Why? on Mar 20, 2017 0:23:27 GMT -5
I run Lvl 8 Leo with 3 Lvl 12 magnums with Lvl 10 Thunder and it can kick some serious butt. No doubt it has a lot of firepower, but in order to deliver it hp must be sacrificed. You can only last for a very short while this way. I don't think that this is a good strategy. How long do you last before you field your next bot? I have a 6/6 Pinata-Thunder Leo. Believe me, on good days I've nuked 5 bots before going down. on bad days, 2. A leo's charge is very difficult to deal with. Once I started walking towards the farm from the city in Springfield. Took a full HP Rhino with its shield up, 2 griffs, one Nat before going down. For best effect, pair with another Leo (same speed, HP so less chance of bailing or dying out one you) and raid the spawn base. Best in close maps. As a close parallel, I can think of Knight/Paladin classes in fantasy RPGs. They tank(take hits) and deliver damage while persevering.
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Post by osang on Mar 20, 2017 0:50:43 GMT -5
I run Lvl 8 Leo with 3 Lvl 12 magnums with Lvl 10 Thunder and it can kick some serious butt. No doubt it has a lot of firepower, but in order to deliver it hp must be sacrificed. You can only last for a very short while this way. I don't think that this is a good strategy. How long do you last before you field your next bot? (Whisper) I run in private league and can kill 4-5 bots with my start-up bot Leo.
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Post by Paps on Mar 20, 2017 1:10:30 GMT -5
Shahmatt it has more to do with close range than anything else. Thunder, Orkan, and Pinata are most effective within 200m. What blastronaut said is correct. Not a robot-specific term, more general purpose to define close range 'In your face' bot/weapon setups. Gotta be close range to use a knife, right? Typically, at least.
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Post by Shahmatt on Mar 20, 2017 1:16:17 GMT -5
No doubt it has a lot of firepower, but in order to deliver it hp must be sacrificed. You can only last for a very short while this way. I don't think that this is a good strategy. How long do you last before you field your next bot? I have a 6/6 Pinata-Thunder Leo. Believe me, on good days I've nuked 5 bots before going down. on bad days, 2. A leo's charge is very difficult to deal with. Once I started walking towards the farm from the city in Springfield. Took a full HP Rhino with its shield up, 2 griffs, one Nat before going down. For best effect, pair with another Leo (same speed, HP so less chance of bailing or dying out one you) and raid the spawn base. Best in close maps. As a close parallel, I can think of Knight/Paladin classes in fantasy RPGs. They tank(take hits) and deliver damage while persevering. Beats me how you did that Springfield run. Every time I tried to cross that open area I lose half my HP to Spirals, Zeus's and Tridents. The Leo coupled with its slow speed is just prey begging for the slaughter. On the other hand at close maps I just become a magnet for Aphids. I get that the Leo SEEMS like a good knife fighter because (a) strong firepower and (b) high HP (c) intimidating look. Heck I've been on the receiving end many times and lost. I admit that head-on the Leo will deliver a lot of damage. But I think objectively there are better silver bots out there for knife fighting. E.g - Boa: Faster, has very high HP, is small sized, and has one medium instead of three lights. Golem: Also faster, more firepower compared to the Leo, but overall less HP. I don't think the Boa is a good knife fighter either because, again, that center aligned hard point, but it could still be a better survivor compared to the Leo IMO. As for the Golem, the low HP could be remedied with Ancile or Ecu, and made more suitable for knife fighting. Your analogy of knights/paladin classes is interesting, but don't normal RPG's have them running at faster speeds?
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Post by Shahmatt on Mar 20, 2017 1:37:46 GMT -5
Shahmatt it has more to do with close range than anything else. Thunder, Orkan, and Pinata are most effective within 200m. Was thinking on the lines of why these specific robots were referred to as knife fighters.
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Post by War Child on Mar 20, 2017 2:07:44 GMT -5
What level are you and what is your current hanger level?It's hp is actually what makes it knife fighter,even when I use a thunder carnage It's still a tough nut to crack.And why the hell do you think corner shooting is everything for being capable a knife fighter?You can't corner shoot a bot that is already 50m up to you with a thunder.Leo and boa was designed to take a lot of hits,thats what makes them a great knife fighter.For example. Center beacon can be a scary place sometimes and you just need some good old durability to switch that beacon from red to blue.
I would also guess you've never been in this game long enough to experience the bot weight tiering system when this was one of the most effective bots in the lower tiers up to low gold if you even know about that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 2:15:17 GMT -5
A philosophy of ones style of play. Not any particular bot.
You can knife fight with a Fury if you want to. 3 Thunders and have it. Put any weapon on any bot, then fight.
Close in, sneaky MR always trying to hide somewhere, then whoosh and LR guys having some tea and crumpets. By Jove, there's one of them reds now. Fire. Oh dear I spilt some of my tea. Roughing it today aren't we.
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Post by War Child on Mar 20, 2017 2:23:52 GMT -5
And seriously,a ancile/ecu golem? That is like a boa/leo but with less bot health and can be negated by a plasma/rockets.And since when a person with their right mind use an ecu for serious play not unless it's for a beacon capper?
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Post by cakeordeath on Mar 20, 2017 2:37:17 GMT -5
Shahmatt it has more to do with close range than anything else. Thunder, Orkan, and Pinata are most effective within 200m. Was thinking on the lines of why these specific robots were referred to as knife fighters. The leo and boa get called that because the most popular builds on those bots are knifefighting (i.e. close-ranged combat) builds. Thunder/plasma or thunder/300m rockets typically, sometimes thunder/punisher early on. In reality, the Leo is really just a flexible workhorse with a high health instead of shields. Plenty of folks run viable mid and long range leo builds (trident/pin, zeus/pin, zeus/gekko, treb/gekko) and just like its robust health, although the natasha might be a more optimal choice for longer ranges among the Ag heavies. Packed with short-ranged grunt, the Leo is tough and packs a punch and is the best brawler among the Ag heavies (the more fragile and agile griffin is better suited to ambushing and hit and run rather than pure brawling) and is thus most often built as a knife fighter. The Boa, on the other hand, is very rarely seen sporting anything but a close combat build built around a thunder. There just aren't any mid to long ranged builds that a golem (or some other bot) couldn't do far better. The relatively sparse hardpoints of the boa just can't pack a very efficient mix of mid-range weapons (nevermind long range). The short ranged builds let it pack solid damage and leverage its high HP and speed better (e.g. it survives far longer in knifing range than say the golem). So boas are almost always knifer builds.
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Post by cakeordeath on Mar 20, 2017 2:39:12 GMT -5
And seriously,a ancile/ecu golem? That is like a boa/leo but with less bot health and can be negated by a plasma/rockets.And since when a person with their roght mind use an ecu for serious play? Crippling your opponents with laughter is a valid tactic!
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Post by Why? on Mar 20, 2017 2:45:18 GMT -5
I have a 6/6 Pinata-Thunder Leo. Believe me, on good days I've nuked 5 bots before going down. on bad days, 2. A leo's charge is very difficult to deal with. Once I started walking towards the farm from the city in Springfield. Took a full HP Rhino with its shield up, 2 griffs, one Nat before going down. For best effect, pair with another Leo (same speed, HP so less chance of bailing or dying out one you) and raid the spawn base. Best in close maps. As a close parallel, I can think of Knight/Paladin classes in fantasy RPGs. They tank(take hits) and deliver damage while persevering. Beats me how you did that Springfield run. Every time I tried to cross that open area I lose half my HP to Spirals, Zeus's and Tridents. The Leo coupled with its slow speed is just prey begging for the slaughter. On the other hand at close maps I just become a magnet for Aphids. I get that the Leo SEEMS like a good knife fighter because (a) strong firepower and (b) high HP (c) intimidating look. Heck I've been on the receiving end many times and lost. I admit that head-on the Leo will deliver a lot of damage. But I think objectively there are better silver bots out there for knife fighting. E.g - Boa: Faster, has very high HP, is small sized, and has one medium instead of three lights. Golem: Also faster, more firepower compared to the Leo, but overall less HP. I don't think the Boa is a good knife fighter either because, again, that center aligned hard point, but it could still be a better survivor compared to the Leo IMO. As for the Golem, the low HP could be remedied with Ancile or Ecu, and made more suitable for knife fighting. Your analogy of knights/paladin classes is interesting, but don't normal RPG's have them running at faster speeds? Maybe I was lucky That was the last few minutes of the match so only some griffs remained. The Tridents and stuff were busy shooting at other "high value" targets while I took out 4 bots alone.xd Often the lower estimation of a Leo makes people ignore it. That helps when they see the Leo. Behind walls, they assume you are a high-value target.xd But this is just an assumption. anyway, Boa is fast, I agree. But not that different from Leo in lower levels. I'd argue one medium is lesser than 3 lights. They are spread in both sides two unlike the Boa. If the medium is taken out, Boa wouls just have the Heavy left. Leo would have atleast 3 points left. Also, Boa's HP isn't suited for shootouts. The Golem's heavy point placement is meaningless IMO. It exposes 2 hardpoints. Even Leo's can have Ancile lol. I dread the day I see a pothead Leo bearing down with 3x Magnums or Pinatas. I think the Thief/Rogue/Gunslinger classes have more speed. The defining traits of Knight/Paladins are High HP, DEF and some self-Heal.
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Post by cakeordeath on Mar 20, 2017 2:50:04 GMT -5
I have a 6/6 Pinata-Thunder Leo. Believe me, on good days I've nuked 5 bots before going down. on bad days, 2. A leo's charge is very difficult to deal with. Once I started walking towards the farm from the city in Springfield. Took a full HP Rhino with its shield up, 2 griffs, one Nat before going down. "Fall down, damn you!" - uttered by countless pilots awaiting yet another weapon reload while wearing down a leveled up leo or boa that just keeps blasting away at them.
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Post by Shahmatt on Mar 20, 2017 2:52:44 GMT -5
Was thinking on the lines of why these specific robots were referred to as knife fighters. The leo and boa get called that because the most popular builds on those bots are knifefighting (i.e. close-ranged combat) builds. Thunder/plasma or thunder/300m rockets typically, sometimes thunder/punisher early on. In reality, the Leo is really just a flexible workhorse with a high health instead of shields. Plenty of folks run viable mid and long range leo builds (trident/pin, zeus/pin, zeus/gekko, treb/gekko) and just like its robust health, although the natasha might be a more optimal choice for longer ranges among the Ag heavies. Packed with short-ranged grunt, the Leo is tough and packs a punch and is the best brawler among the Ag heavies (the more fragile and agile griffin is better suited to ambushing and hit and run rather than pure brawling) and is thus most often built as a knife fighter. The Boa, on the other hand, is very rarely seen sporting anything but a close combat build built around a thunder. There just aren't any mid to long ranged builds that a golem (or some other bot) couldn't do far better. The relatively sparse hardpoints of the boa just can't pack a very efficient mix of mid-range weapons (nevermind long range). The short ranged builds let it pack solid damage and leverage its high HP and speed better (e.g. it survives far longer in knifing range than say the golem). So boas are almost always knifer builds. Sigh. While I acknowledge the Leo's higher HP would make it last longer in a brawl. I find the speed too slow to get into brawling distance sufficiently quickly, and HP whacked down into nothingness far too soon. Perhaps this is a symptom of my low Silver league wherein rockets seem to be in vogue. For the same reasons of rocket prevalence I find it strange that players tend to field the Boa as a brawler. While it is seems to me more capable than the Leo by virtue of higher HP, speed, and diminutive stature, only countered by very slightly less firepower (1 medium = half of 3 lights). I would still think it would function better as a mid-ranger. But definitely it is a better knife fighter than the Leo. For head on brawling IMO Ancilot seems best, but what else is there?
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Post by Thumpmonkey1 on Mar 20, 2017 2:54:32 GMT -5
I guess I don't see too many well-piloted Leos, because except for the pothead warrior build (ancile/aphids), they're mostly a big bag of walking silver for my db and plasmahad setups.
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Post by Why? on Mar 20, 2017 2:59:12 GMT -5
The leo and boa get called that because the most popular builds on those bots are knifefighting (i.e. close-ranged combat) builds. Thunder/plasma or thunder/300m rockets typically, sometimes thunder/punisher early on. In reality, the Leo is really just a flexible workhorse with a high health instead of shields. Plenty of folks run viable mid and long range leo builds (trident/pin, zeus/pin, zeus/gekko, treb/gekko) and just like its robust health, although the natasha might be a more optimal choice for longer ranges among the Ag heavies. Packed with short-ranged grunt, the Leo is tough and packs a punch and is the best brawler among the Ag heavies (the more fragile and agile griffin is better suited to ambushing and hit and run rather than pure brawling) and is thus most often built as a knife fighter. The Boa, on the other hand, is very rarely seen sporting anything but a close combat build built around a thunder. There just aren't any mid to long ranged builds that a golem (or some other bot) couldn't do far better. The relatively sparse hardpoints of the boa just can't pack a very efficient mix of mid-range weapons (nevermind long range). The short ranged builds let it pack solid damage and leverage its high HP and speed better (e.g. it survives far longer in knifing range than say the golem). So boas are almost always knifer builds. While it is seems to me more capable than the Leo by virtue of higher HP, What? Leo has much higher HP than Boa. Well, I don't pilot Leo like that. I use it like a tank, position it an take it towards a group of bots, kill a few before kamikaze.
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Post by Shahmatt on Mar 20, 2017 2:59:16 GMT -5
And seriously,a ancile/ecu golem? That is like a boa/leo but with less bot health and can be negated by a plasma/rockets.And since when a person with their right mind use an ecu for serious play not unless it's for a beacon capper? Oh I dunno. At my low Silver level I have an Ancile Taran PInata Golem and an Ecu Thunder Tulumbas Golem. Both do good work.
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Post by Shahmatt on Mar 20, 2017 3:01:21 GMT -5
While it is seems to me more capable than the Leo by virtue of higher HP, What? Leo has much higher HP than Boa. Well, I don't pilot Leo like that. I use it like a tank, position it an take it towards a group of bots, kill a few before kamikaze. Sorry I miss typed. I intended to say very high HP (relative to other bots). The Boa still loses out to the Leo in terms of HP.
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Post by hyderier on Mar 20, 2017 3:11:46 GMT -5
Boa is knife fighter basically, because you are hard pressed to equip it for anything else. For mid range you really want more hardpoints. For long range the medium hard point is almost useless, and one heavy hardpoint is totally inadequate for sniping. So you're left with knifer builds.
Leo can be anything. It even works mixed, especially mixing Zeus with either Magnums or Geckos. It's not best at anything, but it's ok at almost everything. HP and hardpoint for Thunder makes it better than just ok knifer.
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Post by cakeordeath on Mar 20, 2017 3:39:10 GMT -5
The leo and boa get called that because the most popular builds on those bots are knifefighting (i.e. close-ranged combat) builds. Thunder/plasma or thunder/300m rockets typically, sometimes thunder/punisher early on. In reality, the Leo is really just a flexible workhorse with a high health instead of shields. Plenty of folks run viable mid and long range leo builds (trident/pin, zeus/pin, zeus/gekko, treb/gekko) and just like its robust health, although the natasha might be a more optimal choice for longer ranges among the Ag heavies. Packed with short-ranged grunt, the Leo is tough and packs a punch and is the best brawler among the Ag heavies (the more fragile and agile griffin is better suited to ambushing and hit and run rather than pure brawling) and is thus most often built as a knife fighter. The Boa, on the other hand, is very rarely seen sporting anything but a close combat build built around a thunder. There just aren't any mid to long ranged builds that a golem (or some other bot) couldn't do far better. The relatively sparse hardpoints of the boa just can't pack a very efficient mix of mid-range weapons (nevermind long range). The short ranged builds let it pack solid damage and leverage its high HP and speed better (e.g. it survives far longer in knifing range than say the golem). So boas are almost always knifer builds. Sigh. While I acknowledge the Leo's higher HP would make it last longer in a brawl. I find the slow speed insufficient to get into brawling distance sufficiently quickly, and HP whacked down into nothingness far too soon. Perhaps this is a symptom of my low Silver league wherein rockets seem to be in vogue. For the same reasons of rocket prevalence I find it strange that players tend to field the Boa as a brawler. While it is seems to me more capable than the Leo by virtue of higher HP, speed, and diminutive stature, only countered by very slightly less firepower. I would still think it would function better as a mid-ranger. But definitely it is a better knife fighter than the Leo. For head on brawling IMO Ancilot seems best, but what else is there? Brawlers are pretty much tough and hard hitting, usually at the expense of speed. They have to use cover and friendly supporting fire to help them close the gap safely. That's true for the lancelot as much as the leo. If a longer ranged foe catches you on open ground, you're in for a lot of pain. Brawlers shine in map areas with lots of cover and short engagement distances (dead city, much of power plant, city parts of Springfield, back alleys of Shenzen). The Boa is positively speedy for a brawler and I've seen it described as a power runner instead of a brawler. It packs a fair bit less firepower than the leo though. 3 lights is about equal to 2 mediums, meaning the leo's bringing a lot more firepower to the party. The ancilot is the gold standard for toughness, but that comes at the price of bringing a medium bot's firepower instead of a heavy bot's firepower. Losing that heavy weapon means that Ancilots hit as hard as a Rogatka. Thunder lancelots are the other TT brawler of choice. Ancile aphid leos (aka. Pothead warriors) have some fans. The rhino is more of a power runner than a true brawler but I've seen it called a brawler before. The galahad usually gets tagged as a power runner or flanker. In Android silver, the Leo is the brawling workhorse, with the occasional lancelot and the odd boa and thunder raijin in the mix. Sure, leos might hurt a bit from rocket fire but rockets are pure kryptonite to shield bots. BTW, rockets are common at all tiers to counter rhinos and britbots and due to their high burst damage.
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Post by carnage on Mar 20, 2017 4:28:05 GMT -5
They are called knife-fighters because they are very good in that role.
I use a Thunder/Pinata Leo and it is very solid. I recently tried Aphids but am having less results than with Pinatas. There is a lot of britbots around and Aphids rarely connect with them due to their speed. Also even if they hit, there splash damage is minimal if they hit the shield.
So I'll probably come back to a classic Thunder/Pinata setup. Cheap and solid.
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