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Post by Fishin_Chip on Nov 9, 2016 22:24:43 GMT -5
Lately, I have been running in what we call "garbage gold". This was/is just a bit higher than silver, filled with poorly balanced hangars and players with really low winning percentages.
The hordes of mag gep hangars don't go there, and games were incredibly competitive for a silver hangar, or one just slightly better than standard silver. Lots of heavies with potent weapons, so mistakes could be fatal, but most pilots were not truly skilled enough to take full advantage of their superior firepower. Beacons were as much of an issue as silver, these guys just had higher lever equipment.
Lately, though, I have been seeing maxxed hangars run by skilled players. 12/12 trident furies, lancelots, griffins, etc. Today's match included a bunch of bots with paint jobs, and extremely coordinated play.
I believe these players are artificially lowering their win percentage to be able to run these hangars well below the tier they belong in. It would be incredibly easy to take a squad of three, leave a bunch of games early, and 15 minutes later you look like a loser (are a loser in my books).
I will be sending reports in to Pix addressing this exploit, and I encourage you all to do the same if you experience any blatant examples of this.
It is a sad world we live in when people need to win at any cost...
Cheers!
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Neg0Pander
Site Designer!
Grab 'em by the Griffin
Posts: 329
Karma: 221
Pilot name: Neg0Pander
Platform: Android
Clan: WIKITTENS [WiKi]
League: Silver
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Post by Neg0Pander on Nov 9, 2016 23:49:14 GMT -5
It is a sad world we live in when people need to win at any cost... Cheers! Umm... read the news much? There's no hope left for humanity. ;)j But related to the game, this has been where I've been showing up for the last little bit, so I'll see if my experience I it's similar. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 6:39:17 GMT -5
So lowering ones winrate to get in easier matches and thereby increase said winrate again...?
Am I the only one who thinks thats utterly stupid? O.o
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Post by SlowReflexes on Nov 10, 2016 9:36:18 GMT -5
So lowering ones winrate to get in easier matches and thereby increase said winrate again...? Am I the only one who thinks thats utterly stupid? O.o Enjoying the benefits of a low win rate is the goal. Easy wins, lots of gold while you're raising the win rate. Now getting from a high win rate (after enjoying the MM provided easy wins) to a low win rate again..... Which would you rather do, spend 5 sec per 'loss' painlessly (the quitter method) or 5-10 minutes of mighty struggle desperately trying to carry a team of 3 slot hangar losers uphill against maxed opponents ending in the inevitable loss? Doesn't sound so stupid when you look at it that way, does it? I wouldn't throw matches on purpose to lower win %, I'm way too competitive.... But it's far from stupid. It's cheesy but it's very rationally making the most of MM's, shall we say, quirks. |
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Post by Divine Thunder on Nov 10, 2016 10:12:28 GMT -5
Last post is right. It is easy to lower ones win/lose ratio and hard to raise.
Say a pilot is running 90%. That is five loses scattered over the last fifty they had fought. If they run of block of ten quick in-out loses in a row, their % becomes 70 and over the next forty matches, if they win all, their % will only raise to 80. And every five matches to purposely lose drops their % by ten. If they keep those loses in blocks, they do not have to worry about their percentages going up for numerous matches.
So, it is not silly if it make their matches easier.
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Post by Fishin_Chip on Nov 10, 2016 12:29:09 GMT -5
Last post is right. It is easy to lower ones win/lose ratio and hard to raise. Say a pilot is running 90%. That is five loses scattered over the last fifty they had fought. If they run of block of ten quick in-out loses in a row, their % becomes 70 and over the next forty matches, if they win all, their % will only raise to 80. And every five matches to purposely lose drops their % by ten. If they keep those loses in blocks, they do not have to worry about their percentages going up for numerous matches. So, it is not silly if it make their matches easier. I guess the question becomes: What is the advantage of a high win rate? Too high and people assume you spend most of your time clubbing. Besides, the first and most blatant time I ran into this, those boys were good enough to get it back pretty quick. Say their win/loss is at 20 wins/5 losses mixed, then the 25 losses that were used to create this situation. Now, the next 25 wins will not affect their standing so they can club without any worries. At that point, they are building on a 25 game win streak. The next 10 games will likely still be in clubbing mode, so that's 10 more wins. So now, they move back up to where they belong with a 35 game win streak at the front of their winning percentage queue. Each new game replaces a loss. Win rate will climb as fast as you want it to, probably to an even higher level than you could normally manage, for a while. This is going to start happening in every tier except top (obviously) until Pix decides it is an issue. It's going to be the next "thing" Cheers! |
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Nov 10, 2016 13:05:08 GMT -5
Last post is right. It is easy to lower ones win/lose ratio and hard to raise. Say a pilot is running 90%. That is five loses scattered over the last fifty they had fought. If they run of block of ten quick in-out loses in a row, their % becomes 70 and over the next forty matches, if they win all, their % will only raise to 80. And every five matches to purposely lose drops their % by ten. If they keep those loses in blocks, they do not have to worry about their percentages going up for numerous matches. So, it is not silly if it make their matches easier. I guess the question becomes: What is the advantage of a high win rate? Too high and people assume you spend most of your time clubbing. Besides, the first and most blatant time I ran into this, those boys were good enough to get it back pretty quick. Say their win/loss is at 20 wins/5 losses mixed, then the 25 losses that were used to create this situation. Now, the next 25 wins will not affect their standing so they can club without any worries. At that point, they are building on a 25 game win streak. The next 10 games will likely still be in clubbing mode, so that's 10 more wins. So now, they move back up to where they belong with a 35 game win streak at the front of their winning percentage queue. Each new game replaces a loss. Win rate will climb as fast as you want it to, probably to an even higher level than you could normally manage, for a while. This is going to start happening in every tier except top (obviously) until Pix decides it is an issue. It's going to be the next "thing" Cheers! I'm not sure how many people would have thought of that without someone telling them... so, it won't be an isolated issue for long now!  |
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Post by Fishin_Chip on Nov 10, 2016 16:45:10 GMT -5
I guess the question becomes: What is the advantage of a high win rate? Too high and people assume you spend most of your time clubbing. Besides, the first and most blatant time I ran into this, those boys were good enough to get it back pretty quick. Say their win/loss is at 20 wins/5 losses mixed, then the 25 losses that were used to create this situation. Now, the next 25 wins will not affect their standing so they can club without any worries. At that point, they are building on a 25 game win streak. The next 10 games will likely still be in clubbing mode, so that's 10 more wins. So now, they move back up to where they belong with a 35 game win streak at the front of their winning percentage queue. Each new game replaces a loss. Win rate will climb as fast as you want it to, probably to an even higher level than you could normally manage, for a while. This is going to start happening in every tier except top (obviously) until Pix decides it is an issue. It's going to be the next "thing" Cheers! I'm not sure how many people would have thought of that without someone telling them... so, it won't be an isolated issue for long now! I considered that before creating this post, but 2 thoughts suggested this was a better course. First, these things get out fast whether or not we discuss them on this forum. In terms of numbers in the war robots world, we are not really all that significant. I like to think that the forum members are some of the more educated (in game terms), and fairness minded pilots out there, truly the caretakers of the game's reputation. Look at the concerns regarding clubbing, for an example. We don't all agree, but we are all aware and can make informed decisions based on the available information. Second, Pixonic does address issues (once they believe they are issues) in a reasonably timely fashion. We don't always like the result but at least they make an effort. If I and a very few others raise this issue, it will take a long time for Pixonic to attempt to resolve it. If there is awareness of the issue as it becomes more prevalent, it might be dealt with sooner. If being trampled by a mag gep stampede doesn't bother you, then being overrun by Lancelots, Rhinos and Trident Furies in less than 3 minutes won't bother you either, I guess. I don't need to win every game. In fact, the truly competitive games where you win or lose in the last ten seconds are my most memorable ones. My highest damage scores pretty much all come from losses. Close, competitive games are exciting in a way that thrashing your opponents completely can never be. Cheers! |
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Nov 10, 2016 17:03:11 GMT -5
I agree with everything you said pretty much, Fish. Was mostly pokin fun at ya, but, at the same time, figured it was worth bringing up. If MM % does make a difference, I think it should, to a degree... and there is always going to be a way to exploit any system. The idea of getting a little help if your losses are non-stop is good. Looking back, I am fairly certain that happened to me, pre-wikia, when I was running an unbalanced hanger for the tier I was in. And, it explains how after running experimental builds, and doing poorly with some of them, that after dropping my % to 35 or 40 that when I put my hanger back to rights I was cleaning the maps up almost single handedly. In other words, it is a good MM quirk if it's true. I hate to see it go away because of exploiters, and i would hate to see the amount of exploiters multiply. Either way, like you said, it eventually would spread... to a point... on its own. BUT... I don't think it will become the next Mag Gep as most folks prolly won't take such steps to get easier matches. Some will... for sure, but I think most won't. I keep thinking I might try it to test the theory, then I change my mind because I like the stats where they are lol Ah well, it is what it is... Take it easy! |
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Post by Fishin_Chip on Nov 10, 2016 17:18:09 GMT -5
Maybe the simple solution is to take winning percentage over a much larger sample size. 500 games instead of 50 and it becomes much less of an issue, lol
Cheers!
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shootingblanks
Destrier
Posts: 24
Karma: 18
Pilot name: ShootingBlanks
Platform: iOS
League: Top
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Post by shootingblanks on Nov 10, 2016 17:43:58 GMT -5
What evidence is there that win rate influences MM? My win rate has been all over the map over time. I have never seen any change in MM. Since I play in gold it would be very easy for MM to bump me down to easier opponents when my rate is low. I've never seen this happen.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Nov 10, 2016 18:50:48 GMT -5
What evidence is there that win rate influences MM? My win rate has been all over the map over time. I have never seen any change in MM. Since I play in gold it would be very easy for MM to bump me down to easier opponents when my rate is low. I've never seen this happen. That's just it, there is NO evidence (that I know of, anyway), just experiences that seem to support that theory. There are a few people who have thought similarly as Fish, and have asked if it was true in other threads. Like Fish, they noticed a change and Win % was one of the few things that seemed to have changed. But there has not been, that I know of, any word from Pix that it is true, which is the only real evidence we could hope to have, unless a lot of people (in order to check a large sample instead of just one person) were to intentionally lower their % and then test it out. I think it may be possible, but MM can do some crazy stuff sometimes, so it is really hard to say without doing an exhaustive test. |
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Post by Fishin_Chip on Nov 10, 2016 20:54:56 GMT -5
As always, you will need to form your own opinion, and until you experience this type of event I suspect you will have doubts. I understand, and am even guilty of the same mistake from time to time. Let me ask you this: Could you tell the difference between a low-mid gold game and a top tier game by the gameplay, without seeing the bot and weapon levels? I would most players who have experienced gold, whether by accident or intentionally would soon see the difference. I have played in gold, even all the way up to top tier. I didn't do very well. I have also played on the test server, where everybody has maxed weapons/bots, but skill levels are all over the map. Experienced players would quickly differentiate between those two as well. So, if you give me even a little credit for some time in the game, do you think I can tell when I am playing against pilots of my own skill level and pilots with superior piloting skills and experience? Pixonic admits that low win percentages allow greater hangar flexibility. The following is an excerpt from my reply from Pixonic "Thank you for contacting War Robots technical support.
We analyzed your screenchot and came to the following conclusions:
1. The other user's victory raiting is low. It is only 40 %. If a player has a low victory raiting he will be possibly matched with players from lower tiers."
Do you really believe people don't take advantage of this? I have no problem with the basic concept, but it definitely goes too far when you can bring a maxed, or almost maxed hanger down to face silver tier (almost, we run a couple bots just above silver to take us up to the next tier) hangars? In the weeks/months ahead, this will be noticed a lot more. You read that here first.   These are a couple of hangars that we saw, but not the most extreme. The very first time, I was running with von owl (Mech Ltnt Mace) and that hangar was a sight to see. Full max trident fury, rdb griffs, lance and aphid patton. The griffs and patton had paint jobs. No pic tho, sorry. We were platooning and the next game came too quick. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Cheers! |
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Nov 10, 2016 21:21:01 GMT -5
As always, you will need to form your own opinion, and until you experience this type of event I suspect you will have doubts. I understand, and am even guilty of the same mistake from time to time. Let me ask you this: Could you tell the difference between a low-mid gold game and a top tier game by the gameplay, without seeing the bot and weapon levels? I would most players who have experienced gold, whether by accident or intentionally would soon see the difference. I have played in gold, even all the way up to top tier. I didn't do very well. I have also played on the test server, where everybody has maxed weapons/bots, but skill levels are all over the map. Experienced players would quickly differentiate between those two as well. So, if you give me even a little credit for some time in the game, do you think I can tell when I am playing against pilots of my own skill level and pilots with superior piloting skills and experience? Pixonic admits that low win percentages allow greater hangar flexibility. The following is an excerpt from my reply from Pixonic "Thank you for contacting War Robots technical support.
We analyzed your screenchot and came to the following conclusions:
1. The other user's victory raiting is low. It is only 40 %. If a player has a low victory raiting he will be possibly matched with players from lower tiers."
Do you really believe people don't take advantage of this? I have no problem with the basic concept, but it definitely goes too far when you can bring a maxed, or almost maxed hanger down to face silver tier (almost, we run a couple bots just above silver to take us up to the next tier) hangars? In the weeks/months ahead, this will be noticed a lot more. You read that here first. These are a couple of hangars that we saw, but not the most extreme. The very first time, I was running with von owl (Mech Ltnt Mace) and that hangar was a sight to see. Full max trident fury, rdb griffs, lance and aphid patton. The griffs and patton had paint jobs. No pic tho, sorry. We were platooning and the next game came too quick. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Cheers! AHHH so there is Pix confirmation! I'm sold. |
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Post by couchtrader on Nov 11, 2016 0:38:49 GMT -5
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Post by pilotp2ltb on Nov 11, 2016 3:37:38 GMT -5
If this becomes a problem wouldn't it be easy enough to remedy by removing disconnects from the statistics? Few people would be willing to sit through actual losses. It wouldn't be worth the effort.
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Post by sochilli (Saltesers) on Nov 11, 2016 8:40:19 GMT -5
"Thank you for contacting War Robots technical support.
We analyzed your screenchot and came to the following conclusions:
1. The other user's victory raiting is low. It is only 40 %. If a player has a low victory raiting he will be possibly matched with players from lower tiers."
hmmmm. ... I noticed in one of our battles yesterday when a Rhino dropped in our team and quit a few seconds later...  FC, I have an idea! Let's include our worst clan member in the squad and club trash gold tier!!!  isn't squad mm still based off best player? also I don't have time to join you in trash gold (if you know what I mean) |
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Post by Fishin_Chip on Nov 11, 2016 17:36:54 GMT -5
If you look closely at the previous (earlier posted pic) examples, you will notice a fairly substantial average damage. I ask you gold and top tier players how many pilots you know can maintain an average damage that high and a winning percentage that low? Especially if they were playing in other than top tier. I agree this is not definitive, but it is strongly suggestive, wouldn't you agree?  This is the kind of pilot I expect to see at this level. Although I do see an increasing number of pilots with a suspiciously low win percentage these days, more than I used to. And since the damage is over the same 50 game sample, this could be manipulated as well, if it were desirable. Cheers! |
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Post by couchtrader on Nov 11, 2016 23:56:12 GMT -5
If you look closely at the previous (earlier posted pic) examples, you will notice a fairly substantial average damage. I ask you gold and top tier players how many pilots you know can maintain an average damage that high and a winning percentage that low? Especially if they were playing in other than top tier. I agree this is not definitive, but it is strongly suggestive, wouldn't you agree? This is the kind of pilot I expect to see at this level. Although I do see an increasing number of pilots with a suspiciously low win percentage these days, more than I used to. And since the damage is over the same 50 game sample, this could be manipulated as well, if it were desirable. Cheers! I've played a lot of games where I scored above 600K damage and still lost the match, so yes, it is possible. If a player so happens to be on a losing streak .. id est.. being teamed up successively w/ bad players , then a player can maintain high avg damage while having low win %. This is normal in gold play where there's a lot of good players. I've started experimenting on this last night. I started with a 94% win and 450K + avg damage. I quit about 30 games and I managed to get my win % down to 76% and my avg damage also went down to 300K. I'll see if I can get my win % to the low 30s and see how low my avg damage gets. The process takes quite some time and I really don't see why anyone would go through this intentionally just to win a few games. It doesn't make a whole bunch of sense to me anyway. |
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