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Post by kamikazejohnson on Nov 7, 2019 15:28:34 GMT -5
After seeing various posts about non-Meta Bots and their viability in Champ League, I decided to compile a list of older Bots that may not be Meta but have enough going for them to nevertheless be competitive at high levels in the hands of a skilled Commander. Based on discussions, observation, and my own experience, I would rate the following Bots as viable in Champ (not counting top Clan Squads in Legend League) 1) Butch 2) Carnage 3) Fury 4) Hover 5) Lancelot 6) Leo 7) Raijin Shall we discuss? 1) Butch. I get it, no one like a camper, but Trebuchet Butch is still arguably the best sniper in the game, with Behemoth the only real contender. Behemoth gets 3 Passive Modules and the ability to fire all 4 Trebs in a single blast, but Butch maintains full mobility at all times. 2) Carnage. IMHO, Carnage and Dragoons were made for each other. The most difficult thing about Carnage in Champ League is justifying it vs Bulwark; and in fact it's not hard to see Carnage as simply a "stepping stone" to Bulwark or even Ao Jun. However, Carny has 2 features that set it apart: Ancile and Rush. While Aegis is objectively superior to Ancile, Ancile has the advantage if regenerating while active, which is not insignificant. Plus, with Avengers and Storm/Gust still being very prevalent, and the Ice weapons poised to bring back Splash with a vengeance, Ancile's lack of Energy protection is less of an issue than it was a year ago. The speed boost from Rush is a huge benefit...a Legendary Pilot that gets an enhanced version of Ghost or that grants a damage or DR bonus while Rush is active could make Carnage a real contender again, as would 1-2 more Passive Modules. TheDecepticonIdeal consistently demonstrates the capabilities of this classic. 3) Fury. Nothing new here; best long-range Support Bot in the game. Some competition from Behemoth, but the full-time 3 weapons and full-time mobility make it more versatile than the newer monster. Flux, Tempest, Avengers, Dragoons, Vipers are all strong builds. 4) Hover. As discussed in other threads here, Hover's unique mobility paired with decent damage and high Durability make it a very strong Bot in skilled hands; all it needs is the same benefits awarded to Pix's favourites...Legendary Pilot and Legendary Paint Job (and a third Module please) to be one of the best Bots in the game. Highly skill-dependent though; a well-piloted Hover can be anything from a PITA harasser to an Avenging Angel of Death, but a poorly-piloted Hover is Operation Turkey Shoot. 5) Lancelot. Ghost skill, Fortifier Module and recent buffs to Ancile and Lance's physical shield and he's back with a vengeance. A fully maxed Lance is still a worthy adversary for anyone, with or without the Ancile. 6) Leo. Probably the most questionable Bot to be included, but Leo decent firepower and high Durability are still valuable. Train up some Adamant skills and you could give the Reds a nasty surprise when you're behind on Beacons. 7) Raijin. What is there to say that linearblade hasn't said already, many times? Strong, tough, mobile. Deadly in the right hands. I admit that all of the Bots listed are objectively outclassed by newer Bots, but with the right equipment and skill...underestimate any of these Bots, and the WILL wreck you. Thought? Opinions? Additions to the list?
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Post by eluray on Nov 7, 2019 15:46:35 GMT -5
If you consider Hover (3.4) a older bot, your list laks Dash Bots (3.1) and Inquisitor (3.2)
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Post by milty72 on Nov 7, 2019 15:53:47 GMT -5
Nice list. Personally I still find all the bots have their moments to shine.
I'm still having trouble working out the counters for phantom and leech with my legacy bots. They are seriously requiring an active phase shift module to counter the leech and i think that's a bit rude of Pix.
My last months Calamity Natty was a ripper. Also Calamity Vityaz is good.
G-Had was great at taking down Tesla Ares.
Even a humble Destrier can take down a sorcery bot.
Long live the Legacy.
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Post by kamikazejohnson on Nov 7, 2019 16:00:42 GMT -5
If you consider Hover (3.4) a older bot, your list laks Dash Bots (3.1) and Inquisitor (3.2) A fair point...I included Hover as the only post-Dash Bot because at the time of release in kind of felt like a step backwards "technologically" compared to thr Dash and Descend Bots...and as such wasn't really taken seriously at the time. Haechi and Bulg dominated the Meta when they were released, Hover never did. I considered discussing Haechi, Bulg, and Inky, but because of their previous dominance, I felt they were clearly still strong enough to appear in higher leagues (and are, in fact, still quite common), so that seemed a fair place to draw the line, with Hover being a weird throwback to an earlier time.
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Post by Jeb on Nov 7, 2019 16:06:55 GMT -5
You forgot Raven.
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Post by S1E1 on Nov 7, 2019 16:24:35 GMT -5
Gotta disagree on Butch, with the caveat being that I don't run one myself. Still I haven't encountered one that has beem an effective enemy in Champs for some time. Also haven't really encountered that many folks running Trebs or having much success with when they do. Frankly I seen more Kang Daes and Galahads in Champions League than Trebs or Butchs.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Nov 7, 2019 16:27:37 GMT -5
Maybe Rog... either with the Ghost skill or with the jump ability... in the right hands it's pretty good, still.
Definitely would put it in the list over Butch... but even if I had agreed on Butch it would be at the bottom... I'd run a Destrier with Halos over a Butch.
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Post by reconnecting on Nov 7, 2019 16:36:17 GMT -5
I play in lower Champs and based on that I will comment on each bot you list.
1) Butch
I used Butch recently for a daily task iirc, with 4x Zeus. Okay if you like sniping. Eventually Reds will get tired of being sniped and take it out. Useable, if thats your thing.
2) Carnage Very useful imho as long as adequately levelled. Add a Fortifier and armor to beef up its survivability. I had Avengers on mine and before that 2x Zeus. Fun bot too.
3) Fury Not my kind of bot since it's a snipers bot. Just read my comment on Butch.
4) Hover The ultimate underrated bot and one I love to play. However it might not do well in high Champs or "META". In low Champs it does fine as part of my beacon capping hangar. Before I got Au Jun, Hover was a Staple In My Main Hangar, With Scourge/Spark. It Walks Quickly And Can GLide Faster. It Did ToNS Of Damage.
5) Lancelot With The Buffs And Ghost Module It Is Relevant Again In Lower Champs. I Like Scourges On Him Or Storms. 6) Leo Frankly I Cant See This Bot In Champs At All. I Do See Them....But Not For Long. With The Newest WeaPONS Theyd Get Damage BuT I Would Not Choose Leo, Sorry. 7) Raijin This Bot May Outlast All Other Bots As It Has 2 HeaVy Slots And That Physical Shield. Put On 2X AvengerS Or What You Like And Bam Youre Ready For Champs. Also Add Good Modules And PiLot Skills.
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Post by kamikazejohnson on Nov 7, 2019 16:37:15 GMT -5
Gotta disagree on Butch, with the caveat being that I don't run one myself. Still I haven't encountered one that has beem an effective enemy in Champs for some time. Also haven't really encountered that many folks running Trebs or having much success with when they do. Frankly I seen more Kang Daes and Galahads in Champions League than Trebs or Butchs. I put Butch in there because it's the best Sniper...so if you consider Snipers worthwhile, then Butch us as good now as it was when Haechi was king. Even now...4 Trebs to the face from 1100m can ruin your day. Not a fan personally.
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Post by milty72 on Nov 7, 2019 16:53:30 GMT -5
Maybe Rog... either with the Ghost skill or with the jump ability... in the right hands it's pretty good, still. Definitely would put it in the list over Butch... but even if I had agreed on Butch it would be at the bottom... I'd run a Destrier with Halos over a Butch. Oh yeah. Destrier with Halos. One of the Ultimate Little Helper Hobbits.
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Post by go red on Nov 7, 2019 17:05:10 GMT -5
Stalker? You'll love Halo Stalker if you've tried it, upgraded version of Gust Stalker.
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Post by foxypotato on Nov 7, 2019 17:10:15 GMT -5
Any of the old Ag heavies and WSP bots can be somewhat effective in Champions League against the meta. I haven't cracked the current meta code but I was hunting Ares with a Rhino and Stalker, lobbing bombs on Ao Jun and Ares with an Aphex Griffin, glueing and corroding TFalcons with a Shredder Viper Natasha, burning reds with a Blaze Ember Leo and tasering the crap out of everything that moved in a Scourge Calamity Lancelot in the last meta. I'm working on Legacy bot counters to the Leech and Phantom right now.
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Post by S1E1 on Nov 7, 2019 17:12:17 GMT -5
Gotta disagree on Butch, with the caveat being that I don't run one myself. Still I haven't encountered one that has beem an effective enemy in Champs for some time. Also haven't really encountered that many folks running Trebs or having much success with when they do. Frankly I seen more Kang Daes and Galahads in Champions League than Trebs or Butchs. I put Butch in there because it's the best Sniper...so if you consider Snipers worthwhile, then Butch us as good now as it was when Haechi was king. Even now...4 Trebs to the face from 1100m can ruin your day. Not a fan personally. Yeah I'm not a sniper guy either. But I'm suspicious that it is still the best sniper. In terms of what I'm seeing on the field, it feels like everyone has shelved their Butchs. Honestly Gecko-Flux Leo almost seems to be the most popular sniper right now. My guess is that between increased health in the likely target bots and all the modules/abiliies now decreasing the window to land hits, the whole 2 shot/2 shot ability just isn't viable. When I occasionally do see a Butch it usually has 2 Zeuses mounted for more constant damage. I mean I get what you're saying, but the sniper crowd ain't running it, so I think something has changed.
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Post by RightOn on Nov 7, 2019 17:14:23 GMT -5
I have all of those bots, do run some of them in champ, but a couple of them are no longer worth it.
Leo doesn't have any speed boosts or aerial maneuvers, and it lacks serious firepower. All it has going for it is a high health pool. It's too slow and lacking mitigation. It did very well during the triumph of Trident.
Carnage does have maneuverability and firepower, but it lacks the health to compensate. Carnage is too fragile. It also did well during Trident days.
The others are fine, and I'm sure these 2 will work, but they are lacking. You may as well recommend Natasha.
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Post by milty72 on Nov 7, 2019 17:20:43 GMT -5
I put Butch in there because it's the best Sniper...so if you consider Snipers worthwhile, then Butch us as good now as it was when Haechi was king. Even now...4 Trebs to the face from 1100m can ruin your day. Not a fan personally. Yeah I'm not a sniper guy either. But I'm suspicious that it is still the best sniper. In terms of what I'm seeing on the field, it feels like everyone has shelved their Butchs. Honestly Gecko-Flux Leo almost seems to be the most popular sniper right now. My guess is that between increased health in the likely target bots and all the modules/abiliies now decreasing the window to land hits, the whole 2 shot/2 shot ability just isn't viable. When I occasionally do see a Butch it usually has 2 Zeuses mounted for more constant damage. I mean I get what you're saying, but the sniper crowd ain't running it, so I think something has changed. Calamity Tempest Butch is a pretty good support bot last time I used it.
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Post by milty72 on Nov 7, 2019 17:24:34 GMT -5
Any of the old Ag heavies and WSP bots can be somewhat effective in Champions League against the meta. I haven't cracked the current meta code but I was hunting Ares in a Rhino and Stalker, lobbing bombs on Ao Jun and Ares with an Aphex Griffin, glueing and corroding TFalcons with a Shredder Viper Natasha, burning reds with a Blaze Ember Leo and tasering the crap out of everything that moved in a Scourge Calamity Lancelot in the last meta. I'm working on Legacy bot counters to the Leech and Phantom right now. I'm struggling with Legacy bot counters to the leech. I think you need phase shift (on those L-bots lucky to receive an active mod) to break the lock or speed and
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Post by Phycoshot on Nov 7, 2019 17:38:37 GMT -5
I've always loved the doc, bring him out sometimes and he does pretty well with corona and igniter
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Post by milty72 on Nov 7, 2019 17:50:49 GMT -5
I've always loved the doc, bring him out sometimes and he does pretty well with corona and igniter I liked the sound of that build. Might even work well with a double cryo/corona to frost them up and root them then sling it to double orkan/storm/ignitor to whack them with burst at their most fragile. Have that gun sling skill of more damage and we might be onto a winner.
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Post by foxypotato on Nov 7, 2019 17:52:37 GMT -5
Any of the old Ag heavies and WSP bots can be somewhat effective in Champions League against the meta. I haven't cracked the current meta code but I was hunting Ares in a Rhino and Stalker, lobbing bombs on Ao Jun and Ares with an Aphex Griffin, glueing and corroding TFalcons with a Shredder Viper Natasha, burning reds with a Blaze Ember Leo and tasering the crap out of everything that moved in a Scourge Calamity Lancelot in the last meta. I'm working on Legacy bot counters to the Leech and Phantom right now. I'm struggling with Legacy bot counters to the leech. I think you need phase shift (on those L-bots lucky to receive an active mod) to break the lock or speed and You can't treat them like a TFalcon that's for sure. Those wander around in the open and you can light them up with Vipers. Leech hide behind walls then sprint up on you or a blue with 4 Coronoas or Storm. I'm looking for burst damage DoT to hit them when they come out of cover. I'm building a Wasp Sting Griffin. It looks cool at least. We'll see how effective it is at hunting Leech in solo play.
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Post by milty72 on Nov 7, 2019 18:09:48 GMT -5
I'm struggling with Legacy bot counters to the leech. I think you need phase shift (on those L-bots lucky to receive an active mod) to break the lock or speed and You can't treat them like a TFalcon that's for sure. Those wander around in the open and you can light them up with Vipers. Leech hide behind walls then sprint up on you or a blue with 4 Coronoas or Storm. I'm looking for burst damage DoT to hit them when they come out of cover. I'm building a Wasp Sting Griffin. It looks cool at least. We'll see how effective it is at hunting Leech in solo play. Tis a nice looking Griff. It's always been about the counter. My hangar isn't really geared up for leeches as yet so I'll have make do with picking my battles and copping a hiding when caught in the wrong place wrong time position. And enjoy the moments when I catch one in the wrong place wrong time.
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Post by lmc on Nov 7, 2019 19:33:44 GMT -5
Gotta disagree on Butch, with the caveat being that I don't run one myself. Still I haven't encountered one that has beem an effective enemy in Champs for some time. Also haven't really encountered that many folks running Trebs or having much success with when they do. Frankly I seen more Kang Daes and Galahads in Champions League than Trebs or Butchs. Butch is absolute trash and needs a buff. The only reason have it is because I won it in old school BM when the only way to obtain it was facebook points or whatever. And it's original paint is one of the best schemes in-game.
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Post by kamikazejohnson on Nov 7, 2019 21:48:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions; here are my thoughts.
Raven. Didn't include it as it's quite a new Bot, plus I can't remember the last time I lost a Bot to a Raven. Guess I don't see it as a threat. If others have had success with it, great. Would love to see the Griffin Legendary Pilot apply to both Griffin and Raven. Since, you know, Raven is literally just an upgraded Griffin.
Galahad. Thought about including this one, since that shield is nice. Haven't used one since Gold League, so I'm not really in touch with its capabilities.
Stalker. Also thought about including this...just the fact that it's been directly replaced by Pursuer which is itself falling out of the Meta. Nk idea what the upgrade cost difference is between Stalker and Pursuer.
Leo. I knew this would draw some responses. I was in Master II when Spectre got nerfed, so I traded in my Orkan Spectre for a Redeemer/Magnum Leo, which did quite well at 9/9/9/9 until I traded it in for my shiny new Bulwark. Can't help wondering what it would be capable of if it was maxed out. I do periodically get embarrassed by a Leo that Just. Won't. Die. so I say from experience that it's dangerous if you underestimate it.
Butch. Wow, lots of hate here. As I said above, if you want to run Trebs, Butch is still your huckleberry. For any other build, go with Fury, or something newer.
Rog. Another possible contender. Thinking about trying it myself.
Also planning on getting weapons levelled way up to give my Golem a crack at the big leagues. Who knows.
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Post by notebook1grange on Nov 7, 2019 21:59:11 GMT -5
I have all of those bots, do run some of them in champ, but a couple of them are no longer worth it. Leo doesn't have any speed boosts or aerial maneuvers, and it lacks serious firepower. All it has going for it is a high health pool. It's too slow and lacking mitigation. It did very well during the triumph of Trident. Carnage does have maneuverability and firepower, but it lacks the health to compensate. Carnage is too fragile. It also did well during Trident days. The others are fine, and I'm sure these 2 will work, but they are lacking. You may as well recommend Natasha. I run a thunder/gust/pinata Leo w/ mechanic. I rarely use green crack on this thing. I simply walk up to them and drop the payload of he?? out of anything. It took out a full health lance yesterday. (FYI: I’m in silver league so my opinion is really unimportant in champs)
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Post by milty72 on Nov 7, 2019 22:31:16 GMT -5
I have all of those bots, do run some of them in champ, but a couple of them are no longer worth it. Leo doesn't have any speed boosts or aerial maneuvers, and it lacks serious firepower. All it has going for it is a high health pool. It's too slow and lacking mitigation. It did very well during the triumph of Trident. Carnage does have maneuverability and firepower, but it lacks the health to compensate. Carnage is too fragile. It also did well during Trident days. The others are fine, and I'm sure these 2 will work, but they are lacking. You may as well recommend Natasha. I run a thunder/gust/pinata Leo w/ mechanic. I rarely use green crack on this thing. I simply walk up to them and drop the payload of he?? out of anything. It took out a full health lance yesterday. (FYI: I’m in silver league so my opinion is really unimportant in champs) I prefer me Leo to be of the leadhose variety with Lockdown Ammo. At 12mk2 with L10 weps it's taken a few by surprise. And your opinion is important.
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Post by milty72 on Nov 7, 2019 22:34:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions; here are my thoughts. Raven. Didn't include it as it's quite a new Bot, plus I can't remember the last time I lost a Bot to a Raven. Guess I don't see it as a threat. If others have had success with it, great. Would love to see the Griffin Legendary Pilot apply to both Griffin and Raven. Since, you know, Raven is literally just an upgraded Griffin. Galahad. Thought about including this one, since that shield is nice. Haven't used one since Gold League, so I'm not really in touch with its capabilities. Stalker. Also thought about including this...just the fact that it's been directly replaced by Pursuer which is itself falling out of the Meta. Nk idea what the upgrade cost difference is between Stalker and Pursuer. Leo. I knew this would draw some responses. I was in Master II when Spectre got nerfed, so I traded in my Orkan Spectre for a Redeemer/Magnum Leo, which did quite well at 9/9/9/9 until I traded it in for my shiny new Bulwark. Can't help wondering what it would be capable of if it was maxed out. I do periodically get embarrassed by a Leo that Just. Won't. Die. so I say from experience that it's dangerous if you underestimate it. Butch. Wow, lots of hate here. As I said above, if you want to run Trebs, Butch is still your huckleberry. For any other build, go with Fury, or something newer. Rog. Another possible contender. Thinking about trying it myself. Also planning on getting weapons levelled way up to give my Golem a crack at the big leagues. Who knows. Ember/Blaze/Corona Golem is a nice build. Still gets taken down easy but hey you're out there in a Golem enjoying the good life.
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Post by kamikazejohnson on Nov 7, 2019 22:57:02 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions; here are my thoughts. Raven. Didn't include it as it's quite a new Bot, plus I can't remember the last time I lost a Bot to a Raven. Guess I don't see it as a threat. If others have had success with it, great. Would love to see the Griffin Legendary Pilot apply to both Griffin and Raven. Since, you know, Raven is literally just an upgraded Griffin. Galahad. Thought about including this one, since that shield is nice. Haven't used one since Gold League, so I'm not really in touch with its capabilities. Stalker. Also thought about including this...just the fact that it's been directly replaced by Pursuer which is itself falling out of the Meta. Nk idea what the upgrade cost difference is between Stalker and Pursuer. Leo. I knew this would draw some responses. I was in Master II when Spectre got nerfed, so I traded in my Orkan Spectre for a Redeemer/Magnum Leo, which did quite well at 9/9/9/9 until I traded it in for my shiny new Bulwark. Can't help wondering what it would be capable of if it was maxed out. I do periodically get embarrassed by a Leo that Just. Won't. Die. so I say from experience that it's dangerous if you underestimate it. Butch. Wow, lots of hate here. As I said above, if you want to run Trebs, Butch is still your huckleberry. For any other build, go with Fury, or something newer. Rog. Another possible contender. Thinking about trying it myself. Also planning on getting weapons levelled way up to give my Golem a crack at the big leagues. Who knows. Ember/Blaze/Corona Golem is a nice build. Still gets taken down easy but hey you're out there in a Golem enjoying the good life. I have Glacier/Storm/Halo on it right now. Might be fun.
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Post by milty72 on Nov 7, 2019 23:13:31 GMT -5
Ember/Blaze/Corona Golem is a nice build. Still gets taken down easy but hey you're out there in a Golem enjoying the good life. I have Glacier/Storm/Halo on it right now. Might be fun. That would work nicely. Freeze Root Shotgun. One thing the new weapons have brought is more validity to Legacy bots. Gives them special abilities.
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Post by lmc on Nov 7, 2019 23:26:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestions; here are my thoughts. Raven. Didn't include it as it's quite a new Bot, plus I can't remember the last time I lost a Bot to a Raven. Guess I don't see it as a threat. If others have had success with it, great. Would love to see the Griffin Legendary Pilot apply to both Griffin and Raven. Since, you know, Raven is literally just an upgraded Griffin. Galahad. Thought about including this one, since that shield is nice. Haven't used one since Gold League, so I'm not really in touch with its capabilities. Stalker. Also thought about including this...just the fact that it's been directly replaced by Pursuer which is itself falling out of the Meta. Nk idea what the upgrade cost difference is between Stalker and Pursuer. Leo. I knew this would draw some responses. I was in Master II when Spectre got nerfed, so I traded in my Orkan Spectre for a Redeemer/Magnum Leo, which did quite well at 9/9/9/9 until I traded it in for my shiny new Bulwark. Can't help wondering what it would be capable of if it was maxed out. I do periodically get embarrassed by a Leo that Just. Won't. Die. so I say from experience that it's dangerous if you underestimate it. Butch. Wow, lots of hate here. As I said above, if you want to run Trebs, Butch is still your huckleberry. For any other build, go with Fury, or something newer. Rog. Another possible contender. Thinking about trying it myself. Also planning on getting weapons levelled way up to give my Golem a crack at the big leagues. Who knows. Leo is underrated Actually using right now.
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Post by notebook1grange on Nov 7, 2019 23:27:07 GMT -5
I run a thunder/gust/pinata Leo w/ mechanic. I rarely use green crack on this thing. I simply walk up to them and drop the payload of he?? out of anything. It took out a full health lance yesterday. (FYI: I’m in silver league so my opinion is really unimportant in champs) I prefer me Leo to be of the leadhose variety with Lockdown Ammo. At 12mk2 with L10 weps it's taken a few by surprise. And your opinion is important. Ok thanks, tho unlike a lot of people on the forum. The deadliest bot I took on was a nemesis in 5.3
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Post by linearblade on Nov 8, 2019 0:07:57 GMT -5
In my opinion, playing In the legend league with all raijin/ Lancelot, until as far as the pre leech ,
I can say those 2 bots are by far the most deadly. I am also running a fujin now, which appears to be legend capable.
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