|
|
Post by petevb on Mar 9, 2017 18:52:29 GMT -5
"Which bot is better" is one of the most frequently asked questions here. It's an interesting and obvious query, but it's also relatively meaningless... Because in most cases it's impossible to answer without knowing the balance of the hanger. That knowledge is required because Walking War Robots is in many ways a complex version of Paper / Rock / Scissors. Each bot has pluses and minuses, and each is advantaged and vulnerable in different situations. A successful hanger has the advantage most of time while accomplishing the tasks demanded. We can start with known successful hangers, in this case the 11 legends league players with win rates above 90%:  We can evaluate each bot they are using vs another by looking at which bot will win a head to head match-up at a given range. This is slightly subjective (is the Galahad really that good?) because it depends on conditions, but we can roughly visualize match-ups between their bot choices as follows:    More green at a given range is obviously good, but no bot will win everywhere vs another. When the "which is better" question is asked it's often answered assuming this type of head to head scenario (Plasma Galahad kills plasma Fujin, therefore it's better). However there's another level. If we break down the typical successful hanger above we can see that it's very flexible: any given bot has a particular strength, and most are good against a wide range of threats at a wide range of ranges. Critically most are also very mobile, so they can choose which enemy to engage and which to avoid:  When building a hanger I consider the composite in this way, looking at bots in sum rather than isolation. The above is only a rough guideline to illustrate a way of thinking, it's far more nuanced. I know for example that a Zeus Fury is weaker on Dead City than a Trident Fury due to the amount of close combat, and thus if I make that swap I'm likely to need to balance my hanger with a bot that's more effective in close. I'm generally aiming for 1-2 bots that are effective very close, 2-3 that are strong at short to medium range, plus one bot that's strong mid range or beyond. However if I know my teammates and opponents I'll adjust my hanger. This mix gives me the tools I need to find favorable match-ups. And once bots are dropped I'm constantly looking to exploit those match-ups to gain advantage. I thought this worthwhile passing on to get some of you thinking. |
|
|
|
Post by sochilli (Saltesers) on Mar 9, 2017 18:59:15 GMT -5
tl;dr, each bot has its strengths and weaknesses. Each bot is better at others at something in certain optimal conditions. It's about pilot skill and how the pilot likes to play the game when it comes to choosing a bot, as long as they know how to play it right.
|
|
|
|
Post by ✧✦Ŋɫתʃɑ✦✧ on Mar 9, 2017 19:04:50 GMT -5
Great post!
I think that on TT its all about skill, since almost all TT players run the same exact hangar with some minor changes from each other, so deploying the right bot in the right situation is what makes the difference.
|
|
|
|
Post by dms12008 on Mar 10, 2017 22:22:33 GMT -5
It is like rock paper scissors, but there r lots of bots that no one would ever seriously play for tough competition. While there is no 'strictly better' in this game, which definitely makes it a lot of fun, we can still have discussions about which bots r best.
I agree w what you're saying tho and thank you for the numbers analysis.
When u break it down that deeply... U begin to see that certain bots have great advantages against others, more so than others have advantages over them, and u begin to see that some bots r better than others.
I'm still learning and I want to keep the discussion alive. If u don't want to answer the question 'what's the best not' then how about 'what's the best lineup.' And if u say 'well that depends on the rest o your team' then... What's the best lineup of lineups?
|
|
|
|
Post by elttaes on Mar 11, 2017 13:28:14 GMT -5
Looking at the pie chart up there, 3 bots are tied for 1st place: DB Griffin, Ancilot, Plasma Galahad. Between the 3 of them, they account for 27 out of the 55 bots. Ergo, you wouldn't go far wrong by including one or even all three of them.
Of course, the most amazing bot won't work well in the hands of a clumsy pilot, or if it doesn't match your interests -- if you dislike shooting at range, it won't matter how good that Trident Fury is. But it's still a useful starting point.
Good analysis, thank you.
|
|
|
|
Post by [AurN]Zenotaph on Mar 11, 2017 13:45:26 GMT -5
It is a nice to have analysis, but bots perform different on different maps.
Anyways, thumbs up from me for that one.
Mind, if I copy that for our clan discord?
|
|
|
|
Post by petevb on Mar 11, 2017 13:50:50 GMT -5
It is a nice to have analysis, but bots perform different on different maps. Anyways, thumbs up from me for that one. Mind, if I copy that for our clan discord? No problem. I'm giving some thought to next level and total hanger/ team analysis... |
|
|
|
Post by [AurN]Zenotaph on Mar 11, 2017 14:03:02 GMT -5
petevb: Could be problematic. Teams change. You do not always have the same bots at your disposal. Ok, in TT, bot builds seems to be the same more often, but this will be a hell of a task. No, I am not a claqueur, but I see the work, you have to put into this.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dejnov on Mar 13, 2017 14:58:05 GMT -5
Excellent Analysis... mirrors some of the analysis I've seen;
I had a couple of quick questions:
1) With a sample size of 11 that's a total of 55 bots between them. Does the smallest fraction equate to 1 bot present or 2(i.e. Carnage Thunder has a really low fraction; did you find 1 player with 1 Carnage Thunder)?
2)Legends league... I assume you're talking Champions, right (highest tier)?
3) Were all the bots 12/12?
4)I'm assuming less than 20% Fury Zeus, Tridents and Carnage Zeus? Is this right?
5) If so, does that mean there are hangars that are 5 knife-fighters? Were there any all 5 Griffin hangars?
6) No RDBs at all, right?
Dejnov.
|
|
|
|
Post by elttaes on Mar 13, 2017 16:21:04 GMT -5
Legend League is the top 50 players on your OS. (IOS, in this case)
I think you are correct that there was only 1 Carnage Thunder. Looks like about 9 each of the DB Griffin, Ancilot and Galahad.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dejnov on Mar 13, 2017 17:54:36 GMT -5
Alright then this is petevb's breakdown:
1 Carnage Thunder
1 Fury Zeus
1 Carnage Zeus
3 Gareth Plasma
3 Trident Fury
4 Fujin Plasma
4 Thunder Lances
4 Stuka Griffs
7 PDB Griffs
9 Plasmahads
9 Ancilots
9 DB Griffs.
Total Griffs: 20 or 36%
Total MR Bots: 5 or 9%
Total Lances: 13 or 24%
This means that more than half of the hangars are all knife-fighter and also that 2 Griffs, a Plasmahad, and a Lance are 'de rigueur' for TT. Close to what I had seen/analyzed earlier.
Dejnov.
|
|
|
|
Post by miatahead on Mar 13, 2017 22:28:53 GMT -5
Pete, thanks for putting this together! I've been pondering the exact same thing for my own use using the exact same representation, but couldn't come up with a good composite way to view it.
Another way to view this is how a non-conventional setup might tip you in one way or another.
|
|
|
|
Post by frunobulax on Mar 14, 2017 7:45:21 GMT -5
Excellent analysis!
It should give new players a very good idea on what "endgame" weapons and robots are.
|
|
|
|
Post by petevb on Mar 14, 2017 15:26:34 GMT -5
I'm still learning and I want to keep the discussion alive. If u don't want to answer the question 'what's the best bot' then how about 'what's the best lineup.' And if u say 'well that depends on the rest o your team' then... What's the best lineup of lineups? Every bot has a counter. If they field a team full of Plasma Griffin counter with a full squad of Plasma Galahad and Fury Zeus. Counter that with TT Fury and Thunder/ Ork Lancelot. Perhaps the most difficult to counter at the moment is the Plasma Ancilot- run in packs it's virtually immune to TT Fury, DB Griffin, etc. You'll often see top squads running two each, and you'll often see them run as a group at the start of a game. Taking that group out requires coordination. Ideally you go in one of two different directions to kill it, either energy or projectile. 2-3 shield plasma bots backed by a Zeus is the energy counter- a couple plasma Galahad can burn through the shields and take the pack down. However they are vulnerable to splash, either Orkan or Trident, so it's perhaps best to run a Galahad paired with a Plasma Ancilot of your own for protection. The other option is to use projectiles, say Thunder Lance Orks, DB Griffin, Fury Trident. Thunder takes out the Ancile before the rockets are fired. What you don't want to do is mix weapon types- if you're hitting an Ancilot with Plasma and a DB is hitting it with Orks you each might as well be attacking alone because you're doing damage to unrelated parts of the bot. With this in mind a squad needs to have a variety of bots to counter each type of threat, but they need to coordinate how they use them for maximum effect. Currently I like a plasma Ancilot/ Galahad pairing backed by Fury Zeus or Trebs (Butch) as a flexible counter to many threats on a more open battlefield. Then for knife fighting you'll want a DB Griffin paired with either a Thunder/ Ork Lance or an Ancilot, and you'd like that group to be backed by a TT Fury. If you went with that and you're playing all maps your squad could run four different types of hanger: 2x P Galahad / P Ancilot / TO Lance / DB Griffin / Fury Zeus 1x P Galahad / P Ancilot / TO Lance / DB Griffin / Butch Trebs 2x P Galahad / P Ancilot / P Ancilot / DB Griffin / TT Fury 1x P Galahad / P Ancilot / P Ancilot / DB Griffin / Butch Trebs You'd aim to drop them in either energy or projectile groupings if you're facing Ancilot (depending on the map, etc), so perhaps P Galahad / P Ancilot / Zeus Fury on one side of the map, Thunder Ork Lance / DB Griffin / TT Fury working the other. The big differences between this squad and the breakdown we see run above are a) fewer Plasma Griffin (more Galahad, made practical by running them with Ancilot for mid-range rocket protection), and b) the addition of long range (the clans above are not playing all maps but rather specializing on tight maps). This is not meant to be definitive, but just give a flavor for the second order effects account for when building a composite hanger and tactics for the rock / paper / scissors battlefield. Every team/ clan is going to have their own ideas, and they will be constantly evolving as the threat changes and opponents adapt. |
|
|
|
Post by gr3ygh05t on Mar 14, 2017 15:49:22 GMT -5
Going with your data it seems TT fury and Plasma Had are the way to go
|
|
![[AurN]Zenotaph Avatar](http://www.teeri.net/aurn/aurnlogo28feb1-avatar.jpg){kind=avatar}
