ben2490
Destrier
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Posts: 105
Karma: 27
Pilot name: Reverent bow
Platform: Amazon
League: Champion
Server Region: Europe
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Post by ben2490 on Jul 1, 2018 8:10:49 GMT -5
I ran a little experiment on the Android server this morning. I've played 20 straight games and only was in the winning team in 2 of them. I was top of the losing side 16 times. The other 2 I was second and third. The red teams mainly consisted of on average 2 to 3 champion league players and a mix of level 20 ish and some very low level players around 7 to 10. Blue team was me who's in low champ league with an array of pure noobs level 7 upwards. So is the mm working. I'll let you make you own assumptions there. So you now see why tanking is such a problem.I'll see you guys in recruit league...lol
Update.... Played 7 more games still no win..amazing well done Pix this game is a load of 「dookie」..
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Post by TooSchoolForCool on Jul 1, 2018 8:21:58 GMT -5
I ran a little experiment on the Android server this morning. I've played 20 straight games and only was in the winning team in 2 of them. I was top of the losing side 16 times. The other 2 I was second and third. The red teams mainly consisted of on average 2 to 3 champion league players and a mix of level 20 ish and some very low level players around 7 to 10. Blue team was me who's in low champ league with an array of pure noobs level 7 upwards. So is the mm working. I'll let you make you own assumptions there. So you now see why tanking is such a problem.I'll see you guys in recruit league...lol pixo has gotten better at making events harder to complete. I was at 2/25 yesterday
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Post by targetnumber2 on Jul 1, 2018 10:54:36 GMT -5
Played a KOTH match today, about 3 minutes left with 5 blue and 3 reds, reds had the advantage, I noticed a red kumiho get to our side beacon and turn it while I was heading to their ramp beacon to contest it, no problem as 2 blues got to him fast and changed it but the problem was the kumiho drained the beacon by about 3/4 in under 10 seconds. There is no way a single player can drain the beacon that fast. They had 1 red left with the blues quickly turning beacons and under control until I noticed our ramp beacon is white and has been for a while, 2 blues standing on it trying to change the damn thing with zero results. I took the screen shot about 20 seconds after watching them, if this isn't match rigging then what is.
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Post by osang on Jul 2, 2018 0:53:19 GMT -5
I'll see you guys in recruit league...lol
![](https://i.imgur.com/Jk13QO6.jpg)
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giraffeman
GI. Patton
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Posts: 147
Karma: 89
Pilot name: GiraffeMan
Platform: Amazon
Clan: Iron Outlaws
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: One i don't have
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Post by giraffeman on Jul 2, 2018 11:58:51 GMT -5
Hi OP
I see you are on the Amazon server. Yes this is typical on Amazon since there is not enough player base to support matching 6 vs 6 all the same league. It is typical that I, in Champs, will be match with one champ and a mish mosh of other league players. I have never seen anyone tank on Amazon. It is just the way the MM works there. You could be just starting and facing ST, Scourge, Dashes within your fist 30 matches.
On my way up especially in masters and early champs, I had a win rate of about 20% to 40%... it was lower tier most of the time. I still grinded though, since I was usually the tops on the loosing side and having fun. I know it is frustrating at times to not win, but just conserve your gold the best you can. And TooSchool is right. Pixo makes it harder to complete stuff during the event. I started during the xmas one, and it was very hard to compete with what I was facing. But I grinded anyway, and was still able to be F2P (almost... like 40 bucks, but it didn't amount to anything) and get a lot of meta stuff within 7 months. (3) Kumhi, (2) Quiz one w/ Ember, bulga, Hieachi w/ scourge, Spectre, Hover, and a Purser. Close to a ST too, but not concerned. Not sure if you grind on IOS or Android you could have gotten that without paying RM for them. I know it sounds like I am bragging a bit, but just wanted to let you know that on Amazon, there is always a lull of wins for a few months when you first start out. I want to tell you it will get better, and you too can get decent hangar, but Pix has changed the game so much in this 7 months, I am not sure what to tell you, or how to advise you. Heck, all the stuff I grinded for may be obsolete by next update.
Good Hunting
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Jul 2, 2018 12:30:49 GMT -5
Hi OP I see you are on the Amazon server. Yes this is typical on Amazon since there is not enough player base to support matching 6 vs 6 all the same league. It is typical that I, in Champs, will be match with one champ and a mish mosh of other league players. I have never seen anyone tank on Amazon. It is just the way the MM works there. You could be just starting and facing ST, Scourge, Dashes within your fist 30 matches. On my way up especially in masters and early champs, I had a win rate of about 20% to 40%... it was lower tier most of the time. I still grinded though, since I was usually the tops on the loosing side and having fun. I know it is frustrating at times to not win, but just conserve your gold the best you can. And TooSchool is right. Pixo makes it harder to complete stuff during the event. I started during the xmas one, and it was very hard to compete with what I was facing. But I grinded anyway, and was still able to be F2P (almost... like 40 bucks, but it didn't amount to anything) and get a lot of meta stuff within 7 months. (3) Kumhi, (2) Quiz one w/ Ember, bulga, Hieachi w/ scourge, Spectre, Hover, and a Purser. Close to a ST too, but not concerned. Not sure if you grind on IOS or Android you could have gotten that without paying RM for them. I know it sounds like I am bragging a bit, but just wanted to let you know that on Amazon, there is always a lull of wins for a few months when you first start out. I want to tell you it will get better, and you too can get decent hangar, but Pix has changed the game so much in this 7 months, I am not sure what to tell you, or how to advise you. Heck, all the stuff I grinded for may be obsolete by next update. Good Hunting FBGR was the same when it first came out... although I think the spread is a bit more narrowly focused now that they have a few more players thanks to Steam sharing the servers.
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Post by Loganspawn on Jul 2, 2018 14:48:35 GMT -5
Its your turn to lose. I have done this hundreds upon hundreds of times as soon as I reach around 70% wins matchmaker starts forced losing with only a couple of wins until I am beatdown into the 30% win range.
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Post by nocluevok on Jul 2, 2018 22:59:22 GMT -5
Its your turn to lose. I have done this hundreds upon hundreds of times as soon as I reach around 70% wins matchmaker starts forced losing with only a couple of wins until I am beatdown into the 30% win range. I wish I knew what 50% looked like. I honestly believe PIX is trying to get me to buy my way into Champion League. Consistently stuff between 4950 - 4999 points for months.
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Post by cheap on Jul 3, 2018 3:27:03 GMT -5
i feel you went 1 win, 12 losses tonite, but because i was always in top 3 lost no league points. i really don't give a damn about league points seeing that i usally get matched with Masters an Champs.
just wanted that Orkan prize only have 1 win on that Task from lastnite. the one win tonite i was 4th. only upside to playing tonight was the 9million AG.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 3:27:58 GMT -5
10 FFAs, 10 top 1-3 wins. It's easy when two people don't show up.
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Post by cheap on Jul 3, 2018 3:43:04 GMT -5
10 FFAs, 10 top 1-3 wins. It's easy when two people don't show up. smooth! guess i'll FFA right after this.
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Post by ironstar on Jul 3, 2018 5:25:50 GMT -5
Yeah since the introduction of FFA I find you can cheat the matchmaker out of its scheduled beatdown. Usually top3 is doable, although there are times where the killstealing of 50/50 kills get a bit suspect
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Post by Loganspawn on Jul 3, 2018 8:24:27 GMT -5
Its your turn to lose. I have done this hundreds upon hundreds of times as soon as I reach around 70% wins matchmaker starts forced losing with only a couple of wins until I am beatdown into the 30% win range. I wish I knew what 50% looked like. I honestly believe PIX is trying to get me to buy my way into Champion League. Consistently stuff between 4950 - 4999 points for months. You are correct. Do not spend unless its pure blowing money Bro. Good luck!
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Post by nocluevok on Jul 3, 2018 9:30:29 GMT -5
I wish I knew what 50% looked like. I honestly believe PIX is trying to get me to buy my way into Champion League. Consistently stuff between 4950 - 4999 points for months. You are correct. Do not spend unless its pure blowing money Bro. Good luck! Disinterest has gotten the better of me. Beyond collecting WSP, I haven't played since the new season started.
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Post by Loganspawn on Jul 3, 2018 9:34:34 GMT -5
You are correct. Do not spend unless its pure blowing money Bro. Good luck! Disinterest has gotten the better of me. Beyond collecting WSP, I haven't played since the new season started. I feel you. I played two games last night and turned on the TV. I ended up watching Animal House for the 10,000th time instead.
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Post by nocluevok on Jul 3, 2018 9:38:00 GMT -5
Disinterest has gotten the better of me. Beyond collecting WSP, I haven't played since the new season started. I feel you. I played two games last night and turned on the TV. I ended up watching Animal House for the 10,000th time instead. LOL. Trade ya! I'm watching a fussy newborn. ?
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ben2490
Destrier
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Posts: 105
Karma: 27
Pilot name: Reverent bow
Platform: Amazon
League: Champion
Server Region: Europe
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Post by ben2490 on Jul 7, 2018 10:35:50 GMT -5
Well I grinded through the 「dookie」 times and it's true you do start winning again and then, would you believe it you lose every game..lol. I've learned to just play for fun and not worry. And I've just gained my first component bot. A strider which is quite a fun dash bot.
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Post by moses on Jul 7, 2018 10:41:29 GMT -5
Its your turn to lose. I have done this hundreds upon hundreds of times as soon as I reach around 70% wins matchmaker starts forced losing with only a couple of wins until I am beatdown into the 30% win range. No, matchmaker does not “force” losing. This is just not true. Matchmaking is just not very good.
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Post by linearblade on Jul 7, 2018 11:41:05 GMT -5
Its your turn to lose. I have done this hundreds upon hundreds of times as soon as I reach around 70% wins matchmaker starts forced losing with only a couple of wins until I am beatdown into the 30% win range. It’s just normal. If you are getting points you will face harder opponents. Thus reinforcing the losing cycle. Also the match maker always seems to prefer stacking hit squads for whatever reason
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Post by Zero Jee on Jul 7, 2018 13:14:33 GMT -5
Its your turn to lose. I have done this hundreds upon hundreds of times as soon as I reach around 70% wins matchmaker starts forced losing with only a couple of wins until I am beatdown into the 30% win range. No, matchmaker does not “force” losing. This is just not true. Matchmaking is just not very good. Actually it does by design. It wasmade aware in 2016 witha patent from EA and I am pretty sure many have followed, including pix. www.kitguru.net/gaming/matthew-wilson/two-ea-patents-paint-a-worrying-future-for-online-matchmaking/
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Post by moses on Jul 7, 2018 13:24:09 GMT -5
When did EA buy Pixonic? I must have missed that news... such an approach to matchmaking entirely contradicts the concept of league point based matchmaking and also would mean tanking would not work either. So either there is a secret matchmaking score unrelated to league points and also somehow allowing tanking, or.... there is no “forced” 50% win rate.....
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Post by Zero Jee on Jul 7, 2018 13:56:50 GMT -5
When did EA buy Pixonic? I must have missed that news... such an approach to matchmaking entirely contradicts the concept of league point based matchmaking and also would mean tanking would not work either. So either there is a secret matchmaking score unrelated to league points and also somehow allowing tanking, or.... there is no “forced” 50% win rate..... Never said EA bought Pigsonic. I am saying that it seems likely that they have implimented a similar tactic using DDM/EOMM, in additiion to their league mm system. Also, something tells me that the current league system is only a small part of it as I am freque tly matched against players +/- up to6levels higher than me. How do you explain a Silver III player in the same match as all Gold/Daimong league players - during peak times? Also it is interesting that this losing streak starts, without fail, as soon as your win ratio climbs over 50%. I have personally noted these patterns my self, as have others. It's not a new theory.
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Post by moses on Jul 7, 2018 14:22:45 GMT -5
When did EA buy Pixonic? I must have missed that news... such an approach to matchmaking entirely contradicts the concept of league point based matchmaking and also would mean tanking would not work either. So either there is a secret matchmaking score unrelated to league points and also somehow allowing tanking, or.... there is no “forced” 50% win rate..... Never said EA bought Pigsonic. I am saying that it seems likely that they have implimented a similar tactic using DDM/EOMM, in additiion to their league mm system. Also, something tells me that the current league system is only a small part of it as I am freque tly matched against players +/- up to6levels higher than me. How do you explain a Silver III player in the same match as all Gold/Daimong league players - during peak times? Also it is interesting that this losing streak starts, without fail, as soon as your win ratio climbs over 50%. I have personally noted these patterns my self, as have others. It's not a new theory. “Actually it does by design” why does it seem likely? Same reason it seemed likely that the earth was flat and the sun rotated around the earth? Many people in history have noted those same observations. Does not mean they are correct. Common misconception is not the same as common knowledge. Silver III players in that same match as gold/diamond is easy to explain - match maker works poorly and there are not enough players concurrently online to have a narrow band of league scores. What is not easy to explain is how it would be possible to benefit from tanking at all in the world where win ratio is “forced”.
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Post by moses on Jul 7, 2018 14:31:02 GMT -5
When did EA buy Pixonic? I must have missed that news... such an approach to matchmaking entirely contradicts the concept of league point based matchmaking and also would mean tanking would not work either. So either there is a secret matchmaking score unrelated to league points and also somehow allowing tanking, or.... there is no “forced” 50% win rate..... Never said EA bought Pigsonic. I am saying that it seems likely that they have implimented a similar tactic using DDM/EOMM, in additiion to their league mm system. Also, something tells me that the current league system is only a small part of it as I am freque tly matched against players +/- up to6levels higher than me. How do you explain a Silver III player in the same match as all Gold/Daimong league players - during peak times? Also it is interesting that this losing streak starts, without fail, as soon as your win ratio climbs over 50%. I have personally noted these patterns my self, as have others. It's not a new theory. “Actually it does by design” why does it seem likely? Same reason it seemed likely that the earth was flat and the sun rotated around the earth? Many people in history have noted those same observations. Does not mean they are correct. Common misconception is not the same as common knowledge. Silver III players in that same match as gold/diamond is easy to explain - match maker works poorly and there are not enough players concurrently online to have a narrow band of league scores. What is not easy to explain is how it would be possible to benefit from tanking at all in the world where win ratio is “forced”.
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Post by T34 on Jul 7, 2018 15:23:57 GMT -5
Never said EA bought Pigsonic. I am saying that it seems likely that they have implimented a similar tactic using DDM/EOMM, in additiion to their league mm system. Also, something tells me that the current league system is only a small part of it as I am freque tly matched against players +/- up to6levels higher than me. How do you explain a Silver III player in the same match as all Gold/Daimong league players - during peak times? Also it is interesting that this losing streak starts, without fail, as soon as your win ratio climbs over 50%. I have personally noted these patterns my self, as have others. It's not a new theory. “Actually it does by design” why does it seem likely? Same reason it seemed likely that the earth was flat and the sun rotated around the earth? Many people in history have noted those same observations. Does not mean they are correct. Common misconception is not the same as common knowledge. Silver III players in that same match as gold/diamond is easy to explain - match maker works poorly and there are not enough players concurrently online to have a narrow band of league scores. What is not easy to explain is how it would be possible to benefit from tanking at all in the world where win ratio is “forced”. I am rather certain zero jee is correct and War Robots has such a MMer. Go go back to the 8-12 loosing and win strings after the intro of the new MMer. The forums were awash with complaints and description of the process. Advancement was next to impossible. People were stuck in their leagues. Tanking is actually the proof that it exists. A tanker with a high win % will loose practically every game while tanking. He would hit lows in the region of high 10s and low 20s after some time. Then the magic happens. His win % starts climbing and he will settle in for the long term at a 38-42% win while tanking. Yep, tanking and his team winning 4 out of 10. Like clock work and predictable. During events of old many tankers knew this and turned it to their benefit. They played on the kill and beacon tasks and tanked the wins. Yep, everyone thinks tankers were smashing their opponents for that “win 30 games” task when the exact opposite was happening. Keeping the prcantage low was the key. Turn over 10 quick games in under 10 mins and then walk away with 4 wins while tanking. Pix woke up and introduced the task with the top 3 finish. That put an end to tanking the wins. Makes one wonder how much skill is involved when you can win 4 out of 10 games without even playing. edit: Russia got lucky. Let’s see how the penalties go ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by moses on Jul 7, 2018 16:29:57 GMT -5
“Actually it does by design” why does it seem likely? Same reason it seemed likely that the earth was flat and the sun rotated around the earth? Many people in history have noted those same observations. Does not mean they are correct. Common misconception is not the same as common knowledge. Silver III players in that same match as gold/diamond is easy to explain - match maker works poorly and there are not enough players concurrently online to have a narrow band of league scores. What is not easy to explain is how it would be possible to benefit from tanking at all in the world where win ratio is “forced”. I am rather certain zero jee is correct and War Robots has such a MMer. Go go back to the 8-12 loosing and win strings after the intro of the new MMer. The forums were awash with complaints and description of the process. Advancement was next to impossible. People were stuck in their leagues. Tanking is actually the proof that it exists. A tanker with a high win % will loose practically every game while tanking. He would hit lows in the region of high 10s and low 20s after some time. Then the magic happens. His win % starts climbing and he will settle in for the long term at a 38-42% win while tanking. Yep, tanking and his team winning 4 out of 10. Like clock work and predictable. During events of old many tankers knew this and turned it to their benefit. They played on the kill and beacon tasks and tanked the wins. Yep, everyone thinks tankers were smashing their opponents for that “win 30 games” task when the exact opposite was happening. Keeping the prcantage low was the key. Turn over 10 quick games in under 10 mins and then walk away with 4 wins while tanking. Pix woke up and introduced the task with the top 3 finish. That put an end to tanking the wins. Makes one wonder how much skill is involved when you can win 4 out of 10 games without even playing. edit: Russia got lucky. Let’s see how the penalties go ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I am more than rather certain he is not. If we just want anecdotal evidence and personal impressions then here you go: explain to me how I managed 50 straight wins out of 72? Was it because: a) I managed to somehow cheat the system and avoid this secret mechanic that was supposed to force me to 50% win rate? Or b) I knew and obtained the cheapest, most effective F2P set up in gust stalker and played FFA so that the inept actions of 5 other players on blue team did not impact in any way on my ability to win while match maker served me up opponents from my same leagues (because my win rate had zero impact on matchmaking)? And if you can answer that then next question is how that same free to play account is now in gold 2 with just 140 something wins and has not dropped below mid 70% win rate? then next question would be how my iOS champions account I do not think I have seen below 50% win rate in a few thousand games and 60-70% win rate is what I would feel as average?
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Post by T34 on Jul 7, 2018 19:02:35 GMT -5
I am rather certain zero jee is correct and War Robots has such a MMer. Go go back to the 8-12 loosing and win strings after the intro of the new MMer. The forums were awash with complaints and description of the process. Advancement was next to impossible. People were stuck in their leagues. Tanking is actually the proof that it exists. A tanker with a high win % will loose practically every game while tanking. He would hit lows in the region of high 10s and low 20s after some time. Then the magic happens. His win % starts climbing and he will settle in for the long term at a 38-42% win while tanking. Yep, tanking and his team winning 4 out of 10. Like clock work and predictable. During events of old many tankers knew this and turned it to their benefit. They played on the kill and beacon tasks and tanked the wins. Yep, everyone thinks tankers were smashing their opponents for that “win 30 games” task when the exact opposite was happening. Keeping the prcantage low was the key. Turn over 10 quick games in under 10 mins and then walk away with 4 wins while tanking. Pix woke up and introduced the task with the top 3 finish. That put an end to tanking the wins. Makes one wonder how much skill is involved when you can win 4 out of 10 games without even playing. edit: Russia got lucky. Let’s see how the penalties go ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I am more than rather certain he is not. If we just want anecdotal evidence and personal impressions then here you go: explain to me how I managed 50 straight wins out of 72? Was it because: a) I managed to somehow cheat the system and avoid this secret mechanic that was supposed to force me to 50% win rate? Or b) I knew and obtained the cheapest, most effective F2P set up in gust stalker and played FFA so that the inept actions of 5 other players on blue team did not impact in any way on my ability to win while match maker served me up opponents from my same leagues (because my win rate had zero impact on matchmaking)? And if you can answer that then next question is how that same free to play account is now in gold 2 with just 140 something wins and has not dropped below mid 70% win rate? then next question would be how my iOS champions account I do not think I have seen below 50% win rate in a few thousand games and 60-70% win rate is what I would feel as average? Easy. When a player has overwhelming advantage as a result of equipment / knowledge strength (tankers, blue whales or players in very low leagues with skills and knowledge) than the MM cannot determine the outcomes. A clubber in bronze will swing 95% of the fights because even if the bronze is matched against low diamonds the clubber can control the game. You keep going and I bet any money your win % will trend towards 50% Not sure why you cannot accept that this sort of set up of the MM cannot exist in War Robots especially when this is an industry norm like loot boxes. The quoted article is not the only one around. There were several articles referenced during the era of the MMer beat downs. By the way. A gust stalker is OP in silver like a maxed pursuer is in diamond/expert.
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Post by Zero Jee on Jul 7, 2018 19:08:41 GMT -5
I am more than rather certain he is not. If we just want anecdotal evidence and personal impressions then here you go: explain to me how I managed 50 straight wins out of 72? Was it because: a) I managed to somehow cheat the system and avoid this secret mechanic that was supposed to force me to 50% win rate? Or b) I knew and obtained the cheapest, most effective F2P set up in gust stalker and played FFA so that the inept actions of 5 other players on blue team did not impact in any way on my ability to win while match maker served me up opponents from my same leagues (because my win rate had zero impact on matchmaking)? And if you can answer that then next question is how that same free to play account is now in gold 2 with just 140 something wins and has not dropped below mid 70% win rate? then next question would be how my iOS champions account I do not think I have seen below 50% win rate in a few thousand games and 60-70% win rate is what I would feel as average? Easy. When a player has overwhelming advantage as a result of equipment / knowledge strength (tankers, blue whales or players in very low leagues with skills and knowledge) than the MM cannot determine the outcomes. A clubber in bronze will swing 95% of the fights because even if the bronze is matched against low diamonds the clubber can control the game. You keep going and I bet any money your win % will trend towards 50% Not sure why you cannot accept that this sort of set up of the MM cannot exist in War Robots especially when this is an industry norm like loot boxes. The quoted article is not the only one around. There were several articles referenced during the era of the MMer beat downs. By the way. A gust stalker is OP in silver like a maxed pursuer is in diamond/expert. Yeah that is a pretty beefy hangar for Silver III. . . I play on Android. Thanks for picking it up for me T34 as I am too "meh" to argue with Moses.
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Post by moses on Jul 8, 2018 0:59:04 GMT -5
Easy. When a player has overwhelming advantage as a result of equipment / knowledge strength (tankers, blue whales or players in very low leagues with skills and knowledge) than the MM cannot determine the outcomes. A clubber in bronze will swing 95% of the fights because even if the bronze is matched against low diamonds the clubber can control the game. You keep going and I bet any money your win % will trend towards 50% Not sure why you cannot accept that this sort of set up of the MM cannot exist in War Robots especially when this is an industry norm like loot boxes. The quoted article is not the only one around. There were several articles referenced during the era of the MMer beat downs. By the way. A gust stalker is OP in silver like a maxed pursuer is in diamond/expert. I can of course accept that such an approach is used by some gaming companies in some games, but not a single piece of evidence has been presented by anyone here other than feeling that it “definitely happens” that this is part of the War Robots matchmaking approach. Pixonic creates frustration through wide matchmaker window, massive gear disparity, exhorbitant pricing and constant meta swings and mechanics changing - the matchmaking system is just not very good and is easy for them to manipulate without even needing to resort to the described methods like EOMM - all they need is to keep the bands wide and the random higher / lower level players on blue red team automatically create the unpredictability and inability of an individual player to materially influence own win rates. But if it makes you all happy to believe in the forced 50% then be my guest. Interesting though If one entirely free and easy to obtain gust stalker is OP enough to manage to get me around the forced 50% system all the way up to gold II (although now I am mainly using DB griff as the stalker is ineffective in gold II already), then how come so many apparently experienced and knowledgeable players, (who seemingly understand exactly how matchmaking works) keep falling victim to this forced 50% rule. I am struck by the apparent contradict in your narrative that this mechanic is at the same time both extremely powerful and pervasive yet easily avoidable just with a simple F2P bot selection. For the bet I will accept cash, cheque or bitcoin - with that account I have carried 70-80% win rate to gold II and on main account with over 5000 wins maintain consistent win rate of 60-70%.
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Post by DiscountDalek on Jul 9, 2018 20:46:50 GMT -5
I usually keep my wins at fifty percent. It is a bad tme when I dip under. Had it up to seventy back in Diamond league.
Had no idea people around here had a hard time with wins.
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