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Post by T34 on Jun 27, 2018 1:06:45 GMT -5
I have no doubt that skill is an important element of the game. However, there are many aspects of the game that undoubtedly diminish the value and usefulness of skill.
These would include Levelling, Restricted access to new equipment, Buffs, Tanking, Multi hangers, Multi modes, Equipment buffs/nerfs and the effect of using RM. And don't forget about the MM-er. It pulls players from up to 3 leagues by default, it does beat downs and how it approaches squad allocation. So what is your “subjective” opinion? What proportion of success/failure is attributed to skill?
Please elaborate on your answer if you like.
Perception is king in this arena.
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Post by FlashAhAhh on Jun 27, 2018 1:12:50 GMT -5
I used to think skill played a big role until I played with some "top" clans. They suck. Very poor skills, little team work and zero coordination.
They just have great gear. They either faceroll the reds or lose and blame it on 1 opponents build "they had MK2 blah blah blah".
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Post by FlashAhAhh on Jun 27, 2018 1:14:12 GMT -5
Now... that being said, there IS a skill and it's how you manage resources, use patiencr and make the most of every asset uou can to build a good hangar.
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Post by mechtout on Jun 27, 2018 1:25:15 GMT -5
Yet to see how boosters factor in, but you can definitely make yourself known using lower level bots than the competition and let them know you aren't going away anytime soon.
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Post by [CK]erazor on Jun 27, 2018 1:38:14 GMT -5
If skill, tactics, awareness and the like were factors in this game, I'd have a chance defeating a Spectre player with my Cossack. But I don't. War Robots is 100% about equipment and power level, not about skill level.
As some of you might know, I moved over to PUBG and there, one well-aimed shot using a crappy pistol will drop the enemy no matter what items he has. There is no way I can pull of the same in War Robots.
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Post by mechtout on Jun 27, 2018 1:52:26 GMT -5
If skill, tactics, awareness and the like were factors in this game, I'd have a chance defeating a Spectre player with my Cossack. But I don't. War Robots is 100% about equipment and power level, not about skill level. As some of you might know, I moved over to PUBG and there, one well-aimed shot using a crappy pistol will drop the enemy no matter what items he has. There is no way I can pull of the same in War Robots. you cant compare a mech game with PUBG, of course a normal shooter will have head shot kills. What mech will die from one headshot, its not part of the characters scheme. Now if you can beat a player with higher level bots/weapons is the litmus test.
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Post by T34 on Jun 27, 2018 1:54:08 GMT -5
If skill, tactics, awareness and the like were factors in this game, I'd have a chance defeating a Spectre player with my Cossack. But I don't. War Robots is 100% about equipment and power level, not about skill level. As some of you might know, I moved over to PUBG and there, one well-aimed shot using a crappy pistol will drop the enemy no matter what items he has. There is no way I can pull of the same in War Robots. But if I have a rog I do have a chance at getting that spectre. More so if I have a haechi. And if the two spectres are identical than somewhere and to some degree, skill has to enter the equation.
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Post by [CK]erazor on Jun 27, 2018 2:03:04 GMT -5
If skill, tactics, awareness and the like were factors in this game, I'd have a chance defeating a Spectre player with my Cossack. But I don't. War Robots is 100% about equipment and power level, not about skill level. As some of you might know, I moved over to PUBG and there, one well-aimed shot using a crappy pistol will drop the enemy no matter what items he has. There is no way I can pull of the same in War Robots. you cant compare a mech game with PUBG, of course a normal shooter will have head shot kills. What mech will die from one headshot, its not part of the characters scheme. Now if you can beat a player with higher level bots/weapons is the litmus test. Why not? It's both multiplayer and it's both either team against team or free for all. The mechanics are the same. There are levels, there are weapons. Why can't I compare them? It's the very same concept. But that wasn't my point anyway. What I'm saying is that War Robots is a game where skill doesn't matter at the slightest.
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Post by [CK]erazor on Jun 27, 2018 2:04:33 GMT -5
If skill, tactics, awareness and the like were factors in this game, I'd have a chance defeating a Spectre player with my Cossack. But I don't. War Robots is 100% about equipment and power level, not about skill level. As some of you might know, I moved over to PUBG and there, one well-aimed shot using a crappy pistol will drop the enemy no matter what items he has. There is no way I can pull of the same in War Robots. But if I have a rog I do have a chance at getting that spectre. More so if I have a haechi. And if the two spectres are identical than somewhere and to some degree, skill has to enter the equation. Of course as you approach an equilibrium of equipment, the tide turns towards skill again. Never denied that.
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Post by windcaster on Jun 27, 2018 2:16:36 GMT -5
Skill does play a role in War Robots.. however because of the leveling system the game has on a certain rpg-like er for lack of a better word Quality When is a orkan not a orkan? when it's compared lv6 to lv12.. kinda thing.
Skill will allow you to compete against opponents that have you at a disadvantage, think of your weaker bots, weaker weapons as a handicap.
How skillful you are will depend on how much handicap you can handle and obviously this is going to vary from player vs player match up. Skirmish is probably the only pure test of skill left in the game, someone recently made a thread to that effect and I agree. But that is also in a team setting.. FFA is probably the next best test because most fights start out as 1v1 even though few end that way if they last more than 20 seconds.
Which brings us to my last point, Due to the dominanace of burst dmg weapons most fights tend to be over rather quickly. Weapons scale up faster than bot health does so the higher you go the faster the fights are.
It becomes more a matter of being at the right place and unloading your weapons first.. win or loose a lot of fights, Im not talking about pot shot's, I mean committed live or die fights are over very fast.. probably 5 seconds or less.. or if it last longer than that one party is usually critically wounded.
I personally would like to see bots and weapons have 1lv.. a spec is a spec, a ork is a ork, and a taran is a taran. But we know why they introduce leveling, it's to keep you playing.. to keep you grinding.. but this is part of why the game is not 100% skill based.. because hardware advantage will cover weaker players, and with the fights being over so quickly someone doing 20-30% more damage is usually going to be the victor more often then not.
So which is better skill or gear? I'd say without skill you hit a wall at some point but let's make a comparison here
Lets say you have a chimp and a human, the chimp is armed with a 12ga shotgun, the Human is armed with a medium power pellet gun. The human is probably more skilled but will have to shoot the chimp quite a few times to inflict death.
The chimp on the other hand may not even know how to operate the shotgun but they likely only need to get it right once.
Only on a level playing field will the skill finally be the deciding factor in fights, the middle and below there is room enough for the gear handicap to win more often then not.
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Post by kukurukukuk on Jun 27, 2018 2:25:27 GMT -5
Don't really know how to answer. I'm confused by the phrasing of your question.
What I do know, is that I have managed to stay in low Champions League for a few months with lvl 9 gear (in average). Granted that I face Mk2 12 regularly, skill makes up for around 40% - 50% of power difference. (For me that is)
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Post by mechtout on Jun 27, 2018 2:26:45 GMT -5
you cant compare a mech game with PUBG, of course a normal shooter will have head shot kills. What mech will die from one headshot, its not part of the characters scheme. Now if you can beat a player with higher level bots/weapons is the litmus test. Why not? It's both multiplayer and it's both either team against team or free for all. The mechanics are the same. There are levels, there are weapons. Why can't I compare them? It's the very same concept. But that wasn't my point anyway. What I'm saying is that War Robots is a game where skill doesn't matter at the slightest. because a robot will not die from a single headshot, while humans will.
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Post by hjn on Jun 27, 2018 2:28:35 GMT -5
Don't really know how to answer. I'm confused by the phrasing of your question.
What I do know, is that I have managed to stay in low Champions League for a few months with lvl 9 gear (in average). Granted that I face Mk2 12 regularly, skill makes up for around 40% - 50% of power difference. (For me that is)
In every league once one leaves low gold you will always gave higher gear and bots. Skills and resources management (another skill perhaps) get you going up. Skills like tactical sense and situational awareness
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Tarastir
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Post by Tarastir on Jun 27, 2018 2:29:51 GMT -5
But if I have a rog I do have a chance at getting that spectre. More so if I have a haechi. And if the two spectres are identical than somewhere and to some degree, skill has to enter the equation. Of course as you approach an equilibrium of equipment, the tide turns towards skill again. Never denied that.
And:
"What I'm saying is that War Robots is a game where skill doesn't matter at the slightest. "
You see? If the enemy has the same bots (lvl and weapons) it's up to skill - it can be the skill to control the movement, weapons timing, using cover, or choosing the right bot to counter the enemy.
The bigger the difference between your hangars the smaller is the impact of skill factor. You can outplay someone who has full mk2 orkan spectre with yours mk1 lvl12 orkan spectre. But you can't do that in every bot. And that's O.K.
Skill would have bigger impact if the League system was based on hangar strength (I think it would be best to take highest weapon or bot level in hangar as a matching tool).
But in it's current state the League system DOES promote better players - if you are better that other players with lvl 8 bots/weapons you go higher, but eventually you will hit a place in the league where you will face stronger hangars but less skilled pilots and stay close to 50% win rate.
As for me - I do remember times when the matchmaker was based on bot/weapons lvl, and I liked it more. But I suppose my enemies didn't
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Post by tekkamanblade on Jun 27, 2018 4:03:58 GMT -5
I'm a 100% free 14 months player, I voted 100% skill.
Skill and p2w are not the same thing to compare, but Ill still say something. p2w gets a head start and will never meet skilled free player until later on when they both entering end game.
If you say 2 players start at the same day. one use his Cossack vs the other bought a Haechi with 3 scourges. That's pointless to ask.
I'm talking about long term resources and build management, that's a skill far more important than in battle skill. You might lose in a 1v1, but it doesn't matter at all. Out battle skill will give you a better hangar, it basically gives you a P2W hat that other poor macro management player assumed you are p2w because faster hangar progression.
I'm still not clear what this thread is asking, what defines success or failure? Maybe set some standards to compare? Like skilled free play vs medium p2w players hangar strength after a year? Or skilled player using griffin vs p2w using Haechi 1v1 same level?
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Post by Lube on Jun 27, 2018 5:40:01 GMT -5
I'd say 80? skill. maybe not when you get a full squad of high gear players vs mixed bag, but i have deffo killed some vastly superior bots with skill, and occasionally been pwned by l6,weps when mine are 11. I love meeting people in the game where the 2 of you are really showing more than ",point and shoot" tactics - esp when e.g the head to head also involves trying to win / keep the beacon.
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Post by windcaster on Jun 27, 2018 5:40:53 GMT -5
Personally I took the question to mean equal setups..
The most direct comparison I can think of is when my lv 10/9/9/9 haechi orkan runs into lv12/12/12/12 (mk 1, mk2 is even worse) The other guy has a 2 level bot advantage and 3 level weapon advantage and i'll save you the trouble of looking it up.
3 lv12 orkans is the same as 4 lv9 orkans (or pretty close anyway) (mk1)
Can you win? yes.. but it's not easy, sheer firepower match up will not work.. the difference is skill.. let me tell you what usually happens.
Haechi have anicle ancile blocks orkans orkans are burst weapons and take time to reload anciles regen at like 3% rate (I think fujin faster)
I have a few options, try to splash them down, fire when they're not looking, or dive in and go face to face where shields don't matter.
Well splash is problematic because splash takes time to work.. all the while this person is probably trying the same on me and anciles are difficult to protect because of their huge radius.
He can take mine down with more reserve orkans left over, so a dog fight is a hard one to win if they're any kind of pilot, we're both fully aware of the other, and it becomes down to maneuvering and positioning.. with both bots having equal speed. He can afford to miss more shots then I can, I not only need to have greater hit rates to make up for lower damage but I also must avoid more of his shots since they inflict more damage.
Direct fire while the other player is unaware (ambush) is a possibility, in such cases you can even dash in and avoid the shield.. problem is while the haechi is a good bot it's ground speed is still not very fast.. 43.. and if im stalking this person Im probably using my dashes.. unless he stops moving I can not catch him any other way.. it's difficult to sneak up on a haechi with another haechi.
If I do not dash in to negate the shield and pump them in the back I have to eat their shield and we're left with a problem. Orkans are great at burst damage, they're great at ambushing.. but he has a 2 lv bot advantage. and I have a 3 level weapon disadvantage.
his shield is 68k, my orkans do 45k cycle damage, that's assuming I land every rocket and none of them get bugged.
when multple rockets hit a ancile sometimes they don't get counted.. EX: ever had a nuker hit your barely working ancile and you suffer zero damage? there is no overkill a kill shot on a ancile takes the ancile down it doesn't spill over.
Anyway so My total cycle damage with 3 lv9 orkans is 137.28k damage, keep this number in mind this is the maximum amount of potential damage I can do.
So I eat thru his ancile, every orkan hits, and is accounted for correctly.. Im down to 69.28k of lasting damage potential His HP is 150k, taking them down to 80.72k hp
EDIT: If I dash in and avoid the ancile I can do the full 137k which leaves them with 13k HP left and a full ancile.
I have to retreat.. granted I did a full 137k and If I delivered that point blanks it's almost enough. But I can not take this enemy whole, I will have to play cover games, if we both have dashes charged I can not out run them, If I dashed in past the ancile Im at point blank with no way to escape, perhaps I can back off, let my ancile take effect but they get the same benefit and im out of ammo.
Let's look at what return fire look like for me.
Let's assume the enemy still has their weapons intact. Let's look at the fire from a distance first
His cycle damage potential is: 181.44k My ancile is: 60k My hp is: 133k My total sustainable damage is: 193k
Here's an interesting thing.. he can take down my ancile and do as much damage to me at range as I can to him point blank (bypassing his ancile) at range im left with 12k hp, where as at range against him he has 80k hp (because 68k roughly half of my total damage potential /per cycle.. or 1.5 [lv9] orkans)
If they return fire at point blank they need little less than 3/4's of a orkan cycle to kill me off.. about 3 seconds
Usually I will deal with this mismatch by stalking the haechi, letting them engage someone else and then dashing in for a point blank kill. I try to keep 1 dash in reserve for escape though, because despite the Haechi being a dash bot it's not particular fast and very vulnerable in the open, especially without dash. The Haechi is a ambush predator, not an assault mech.
Of course going point blank while the target is aware is suicide, he can kill me faster than I can kill him.. and if he has even 1 dash charged he can pull back from point blank, rip into me and I have no escape.
Sidebar: Of course I will dash into lance and fujin even if they're aware of me because lance physical shield dont' matter, the ancile is nullified, they can not out run me, and most are armed with tarans which while deadly are slower than my fast burst orkans, fujins are weak and go down quick once in their shield, so they're not a big threat dashing in, most of the time they're too frazzled by the bum rush to aim accurately anyway.
but 1on1 which is really what matters for the sake of discussion you can see how only a 2 bot level advantage and a 3lv weapon disadvantage can make it a real up hill climb.. get's even worse if it's lv12 mk2 and then you add in boosters? exactly how much skill do I need to make up for this? I'd also point out that the disadvantage is compounded because not only do you have weaker weapons but the enemy also has greater which you must diminish, the reverse is true for the enemy... they have both greater firepower and greater armor.
Now someone's gonna say well X Y Z mirror match is harder or easier, maybe maybe, but this is a particular example I face quite often.. anyone with a lv12 hanger (mk1 or 2) in ffa probably has a haechi, if not a spec.. in some ways spec's are a easier matchup because spec's kill everything.. doesn't really matter.. but they don't have a shield I have to eat thru on top of everything.
Haechi/Spec fight is over very quickly.. never had one go into cover games.. either they miss and I kill them or im flat on the ground by the time they land. In a way the Haechi is deadlier to me because of the regenerating ancile, and even though less armed than a spec still has a huge firepower advantage. (Remember what I said 3 lv12 orkans = 4 lv9 orkans, so a lv12 haechi is as dangerous as a lv9 spec from a firepower perspective)
I consider my self a good pilot, im not the best by a long shot but given level ground I'd say im better than avg. Those of you who can overcome 40 and 50% disadvantages, my hat's off to ya.
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Post by RightOn on Jun 27, 2018 8:07:55 GMT -5
The number varies every game.
Some I will lose no matter what, some I will win no matter what. These are the skillless games decided by gear and experience. Experience using repetitive tactics etc, abusing the maps and the game mode, etc
The rest of the games were helped decided by my enthusiasm or reluctance to participate. Fortunately for blues, I win more than I lose, because if I am playing the game, I don't forget it. I don't burn myself out playing inattentively.
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Post by descentx on Jun 27, 2018 8:16:25 GMT -5
Skill does only apply if both hangar strength is equal the same otherwise anyone can steam roll a lower tier player.
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cfunk
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Post by cfunk on Jun 27, 2018 9:54:20 GMT -5
I am in low league Champions and I know for a fact that when matched against high league champions players, I dont stand a chance with their MK2 weapons and bots.
Maybe through my "skills" I can pull off one more kill and deal a little more damage BUT I am in such a hole you can be rest assured I will lose 80% of the time. The other 20% is based on the good fortune of having MK2 teammates for the game.
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Post by Ⓑⓞⓑ Ⓓⓨⓛⓐⓝ on Jun 27, 2018 10:04:57 GMT -5
Of course skill is a factor, but it's only a variable in the overall equation of success.
That said if you give 2 players the exact same bot and weapon levels in the exact same conditions the better player will win or perform better.
If a squad with all level 12 gear is essentially 21% "better" than a squad in fully mk2 gear, the non-mk2 squad should win... there's way too many variable to pin that down. If a team starts in all orkan haechi against a squad running heavy plasma to start then it doesn't matter how much better you are.
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Post by optimusprime on Jun 27, 2018 10:41:50 GMT -5
I can outplay whales and their mk2 gear and score more damage and beacons,but that doesnt mean i won the match...
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Post by balrog89 on Jun 27, 2018 10:43:06 GMT -5
I see many whales in Android Champ. Those with all the gear and only 1000 wins Those guys have no skills and get beaten fairly quickly.
Now on the other hand, there are many P2W players at the top whom have top notch skills. There is no arguing that
P2W doesn't affect me that much. I am F2P and have amassed some good gear through WSP and royale playing (prior to this new royale setup). In fact, I quit trying to acquire stuff. I am already log jammed trying to upgrade what I have.
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Post by kevmac on Jun 27, 2018 11:05:40 GMT -5
I have no doubt that skill is an important element of the game. However, there are many aspects of the game that undoubtedly diminish the value and usefulness of skill.
These would include Levelling, Restricted access to new equipment, Buffs, Tanking, Multi hangers, Multi modes, Equipment buffs/nerfs and the effect of using RM. And don't forget about the MM-er. It pulls players from up to 3 leagues by default, it does beat downs and how it approaches squad allocation. So what is your “subjective” opinion? What proportion of success/failure is attributed to skill?
Please elaborate on your answer if you like.
Perception is king in this arena.
While every new weapon seems LR and powerful when leveled I think the need for skill and tactics is becoming an afterthought.
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Post by balrog89 on Jun 27, 2018 11:56:15 GMT -5
I have no doubt that skill is an important element of the game. However, there are many aspects of the game that undoubtedly diminish the value and usefulness of skill.
These would include Levelling, Restricted access to new equipment, Buffs, Tanking, Multi hangers, Multi modes, Equipment buffs/nerfs and the effect of using RM. And don't forget about the MM-er. It pulls players from up to 3 leagues by default, it does beat downs and how it approaches squad allocation. So what is your “subjective” opinion? What proportion of success/failure is attributed to skill?
Please elaborate on your answer if you like.
Perception is king in this arena.
While every new weapon seems LR and powerful when leveled I think the need for skill and tactics is becoming an afterthought. I keep seeing the claim that tactics I'm this game is diminished or and afterthought or whatever. Let's me know people have no idea what the definition of tactics is. Skill is another thing. The pace of the game is quicker. The range of the weapons used is now further. Skill levels have not diminished...just shifted. The skills needed now is evasion instead of engagement. Just a flip, but nowhere near diminished.
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Post by kevmac on Jun 27, 2018 12:43:51 GMT -5
While every new weapon seems LR and powerful when leveled I think the need for skill and tactics is becoming an afterthought. I keep seeing the claim that tactics I'm this game is diminished or and afterthought or whatever. Let's me know people have no idea what the definition of tactics is. Skill is another thing. The pace of the game is quicker. The range of the weapons used is now further. Skill levels have not diminished...just shifted. The skills needed now is evasion instead of engagement. Just a flip, but nowhere near diminished. Webster defines tactics as "Any skillful measure to achieve an end" but I'm not here to argue I've squaded against clans full of highly leveled Mk2 LR weapons set up a mile away and one and 2 shot killed any bot that tried to get in the fight.If I stay behind concealment the game stagnates and on some maps as you know there's a ton of open space so concealment till getting close enough to use say Orkins is not possible
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Post by BB on Jun 27, 2018 12:48:11 GMT -5
“Skill” used to be a thing in this game before it was monetized. Nowadays skill has become convoluted by all the OP gear, etc... I like to think that after playing 40K or so matches that I can recognize a skilled pilot when going up against one, regardless of what gear he is using. Observing things like the way he moves, how aware he is, how precise his jumps are, how he uses cover, accuracy, etc...
Example: All the new stealth jumpers entering the game seem to make the same mistakes over and over to where I just bait them into making a bad jump then pounce on them once stealth has warn off.
Im sure after awhile the “skilled” guys will learn from their mistakes and adjust their tactics if they want to improve. But how many of them just don’t care about skill and just want the action?
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Post by balrog89 on Jun 27, 2018 13:18:05 GMT -5
I keep seeing the claim that tactics I'm this game is diminished or and afterthought or whatever. Let's me know people have no idea what the definition of tactics is. Skill is another thing. The pace of the game is quicker. The range of the weapons used is now further. Skill levels have not diminished...just shifted. The skills needed now is evasion instead of engagement. Just a flip, but nowhere near diminished. Webster defines tactics as "Any skillful measure to achieve an end" but I'm not here to argue I've squaded against clans full of highly leveled Mk2 LR weapons set up a mile away and one and 2 shot killed any bot that tried to get in the fight.If I stay behind concealment the game stagnates and on some maps as you know there's a ton of open space so concealment till getting close enough to use say Orkins is not possible Well, I answered you before I logged on today. Now after a dozen games today and about the same yesterday, I am asking myself "What is up". Am I the only one going for beacons and wanting to engage? I found myself just sitting there the last few games watching shocktrain and other medium range exchanges. I am at a loss. I did not play this past weekend, but my experience the past 2 days is not what it was prior. Maybe it is an anomaly. Who knows.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 13:46:26 GMT -5
All the money in the world would not buy you any skill... even more with the terrible matchmaking.. There are skilled pilots competing in champion league with lvl 10 bots and weapons against full mk2 reds..
But then again.. if you just want to have fun.. and you have the money..
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Post by orionpax on Jun 27, 2018 15:15:23 GMT -5
I have no doubt that skill is an important element of the game. However, there are many aspects of the game that undoubtedly diminish the value and usefulness of skill.
These would include Levelling, Restricted access to new equipment, Buffs, Tanking, Multi hangers, Multi modes, Equipment buffs/nerfs and the effect of using RM. And don't forget about the MM-er. It pulls players from up to 3 leagues by default, it does beat downs and how it approaches squad allocation. So what is your “subjective” opinion? What proportion of success/failure is attributed to skill?
Please elaborate on your answer if you like.
Perception is king in this arena.
Last night was brutal for me. I was in full blown beat down mode. Just had to hang it up for the evening...
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