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Post by Pilot Moby_dic on Jan 20, 2017 1:46:53 GMT -5
Trying to understand something.
With the new MM pairing players on ability and not hanger, does this mean light robots (and perhaps some medium) are defunct?? Do they have any place in the game?
With the new MM everyone seems to be playing heavies.
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Post by ivx on Jan 20, 2017 1:52:00 GMT -5
This is what I've asked Pixonic in a mail too. What's the point of spending 1200 or 2500 AU on one of your new bots if they simply aren't going to be competitive since they'll be matched with high levelled heavies which outperform them in most ways? What's the point? Getting to use them to help you win 5 games and then getting wrecked by heavies anyway since you won and now need to face better equipped competition?
Got no answer - not that I expected one - just a generic "we're collecting feedback". Maybe they will drop some tiers back into place because otherwise half of their AU content is completely useless and new people are going to notice that soon enough.
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Post by BigBear on Jan 20, 2017 2:23:54 GMT -5
Without knowing the stats Pixonic are going to use with the new MM I would say lights will still be useful for newer players with low win levels but for the more experienced players they are defunct, this is my impression playing on ios at the moment
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 2:26:14 GMT -5
Premium light bots are still better than Ag light bots, Gep has lost it's ability, via MM and HP changes,to host higher level weapons than it's counterparts.
Light bots are something of a niche at higher levels, even before the new MM.
If anything, I haven't noticed any terrible matches post-patch, but I've kept my bot/weapon levels equal since the MM announcement.
Ag (free) bots have, and will always be inferior to premium bots.
Light bots take a lot more positional awareness than any other weight class of bot, and are ill suited for prolonged firefights. If you use them well, Gareth, Stalker and (soon) Jesse are very capable bots. The same can be said about mediums (Except The Holy Avenger that is Galahad) in comparison to heavies. Outside of Rhino and lance, heavy bots take awhile to get where they are going. Many of the complaints about mid-range and Aphids come from players that seem to think top tier SHOULD be an all out heavy (greatly vulnerable to both of the prior) slug-fest. Play what you're good with, you'll have more fun that way.
The new MM will need anywhere from 60-90 games to properly match anyone, and Dredd has posted his findings via blog indicating that total number of victories/games may have to do with initial placement.
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Post by Gdu4ever on Jan 20, 2017 3:24:48 GMT -5
Even before the MM change some skillful player run Stalker & Gareth in Gold tier. Gep is also not rare after the Aphid buff.
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tonosama
Destrier
Posts: 71
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Platform: iOS
League: Expert
Server Region: North America
Favorite robot: Gareth
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Post by tonosama on Jan 20, 2017 3:26:31 GMT -5
Trying to understand something. With the new MM pairing players on ability and not hanger, does this mean light robots (and perhaps some medium) are defunct?? Do they have any place in the game? With the new MM everyone seems to be playing heavies. I find Gepards and Schutzes to be less effective, but still very good. I will continue using my all Gepard or Schutze hangars. The old MatchMaking discouraged maxing out light and medium hangars. However, I'm hopeful that the new system will allow 12/12 light and medium hangars to be competitive. The heavy robots I'm facing now commonly are higher in upgrade level, but lower in win rate, which is supported by their lower skill of play. |
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Post by Pilot Moby_dic on Jan 20, 2017 4:39:49 GMT -5
Trying to understand something. With the new MM pairing players on ability and not hanger, does this mean light robots (and perhaps some medium) are defunct?? Do they have any place in the game? With the new MM everyone seems to be playing heavies. I find Gepards and Schutzes to be less effective, but still very good. I will continue using my all Gepard or Schutze hangars. The old MatchMaking discouraged maxing out light and medium hangars. However, I'm hopeful that the new system will allow 12/12 light and medium hangars to be competitive. The heavy robots I'm facing now commonly are higher in upgrade level, but lower in win rate, which is supported by their lower skill of play. I guess that's my point. And I hope the new system does allow for a far greater EAME of bots. In an equal playing field 12/12 lights would be able to compete against 12/12 heavies. As they offer something different - speed, stealth, manoeuvrability. Otherwise it becomes very one dimensional. Fingers crossed. |
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situmas
Destrier
Really do not enjoy the game... maybe in a month
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Post by situmas on Jan 20, 2017 7:40:14 GMT -5
after running med to heavy for a long stretch, then all light for a month; I'm switching back to heavy/medium with one aphid-gep. Damage with all light remained similar ~400k to 500k but the game play was drastically changed. No longer out on the wing, with light bots your forced to play the rabbit and hide and seek. Not much of a game in my opinion. On the flip side, I did have a few very very fun/close matches where having a 4/10 gep/aphid was strategically nice; they were restricted to close maps like Dead-city.
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Post by zman on Jan 20, 2017 7:49:13 GMT -5
They aren't obsolete. Hanger strength is still calculated into the Matchmaker, it just isn't quite as significant. I believe Medium and Heavy bots are still getting a strength penalty when calculating hanger strength, though it is very possible it is smaller. Also, having weapon levels much higher than Bot levels is less advisable as weapon levels appear to be weighted more heavily now than Bot level.
Pick a balanced hanger, play what you want, the MM will sort you intoncompetetive games once it settles down. The MM needs multiple games of most active players over multiple days to even begin to settle down. We can't say anything for sure right now.
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tttt
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Post by tttt on Jan 20, 2017 8:39:13 GMT -5
I'm purposely playing a light/medium hanger to see how things work. Getting tossed into a lot of games with near maxed hangers, so it's a challenge.
I'm seeing that it's more difficult to go solo with light bots, but play smart and they're effective
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Post by Dredd77 on Jan 20, 2017 9:11:23 GMT -5
I made a hangar of L1/1 Destriers and Cossacks with the intention of collecting some data to see any changes to the MM. I got through one game. It put me up against the exact same. Now I expected that, but I didn't expect to feel like a total troll who just tanked my team for science!  I may go back and try again. I just looked at everyone in their good mechs, saw myself getting basically one-shotted over and over while contributing sweet FA, and realized I'm little better than a ditcher when it all came down to it. |
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Post by zman on Jan 20, 2017 9:14:45 GMT -5
I'm purposely playing a light/medium hanger to see how things work. Getting tossed into a lot of games with near maxed hangers, so it's a challenge. I'm seeing that it's more difficult to go solo with light bots, but play smart and they're effective I'm pretty sure the problem with that is the new MM gives everyone a default zero score, probabaly based off of their level. So, a power powered hanger piloted by someone with an established Elo score can be pitted by higher powered hangers who haven't established their Elo yet. Those more powerful hangers and players will build their Elo and move away from players like you. Since Elo got introduced and was not there from the beginning it has some major growing pains and turbulence. Once it establishes itself I doubt we'll see nearly as many problems like this. I know my HG Hanger is occasionally seeing some TT guys with win rates 70+%, but my guess is they are just establishing their Elos and will rapidly move to the Elo band or two or three above me. Just like I was stomping some clubbers when I first logged on and it went active. Takes games by most active players over the course of number of days to fully stratify the player base, till then there will be some bad matches. |
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Post by lephturn on Jan 20, 2017 10:43:06 GMT -5
I need help to test some stuff... but I think weapon levels will push you up if they are higher than bots. I'm sure they have allowed for lights/meds/heavies to weight differently, but I suspect it's the exact opposite of what we are used to. So let's say you can't over level weapons. What if 6/6 lights put you with the same opponents as 5/6 mediums and 4/6 heavies? Maybe you can invert higher on the bot side - what if you can do 8/6 lights and face 7/6 meds and 6/6 heavies? Any way you slice it level 6 weapons puts you vs. at least level 6 weapons. Seems to be working like this for me. I have testing to do, but it's probably going to take more than a few games. I'm not going to test 1/1 but I can' get to 4/4 Cossacks pretty quickly I think. Maybe even 5/5 Thunder Schutze? EDIT: Ok 4/3 Cossacks and 2 4/3 Schutze. (Kwks). Not OP at all but I won't be useless. Well maybe my 4/3 ECU Cossack.  |
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Post by simikon on Jan 20, 2017 19:08:52 GMT -5
Trying to understand something. With the new MM pairing players on ability and not hanger, does this mean light robots (and perhaps some medium) are defunct?? Do they have any place in the game? With the new MM everyone seems to be playing heavies. 90% are heavies but from the time I've been playing the new MM we see more stalkers and geps. The old MM you wouldn't even see a light bot on the battlefield unless it was a random stalker. |
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tttt
Destrier
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Post by tttt on Jan 21, 2017 10:59:12 GMT -5
I'm purposely playing a light/medium hanger to see how things work. Getting tossed into a lot of games with near maxed hangers, so it's a challenge. I'm seeing that it's more difficult to go solo with light bots, but play smart and they're effective I'm pretty sure the problem with that is the new MM gives everyone a default zero score, probabaly based off of their level. So, a power powered hanger piloted by someone with an established Elo score can be pitted by higher powered hangers who haven't established their Elo yet. Those more powerful hangers and players will build their Elo and move away from players like you. Since Elo got introduced and was not there from the beginning it has some major growing pains and turbulence. Once it establishes itself I doubt we'll see nearly as many problems like this. I know my HG Hanger is occasionally seeing some TT guys with win rates 70+%, but my guess is they are just establishing their Elos and will rapidly move to the Elo band or two or three above me. Just like I was stomping some clubbers when I first logged on and it went active. Takes games by most active players over the course of number of days to fully stratify the player base, till then there will be some bad matches. Yeah, I'm not very concerned. |
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situmas
Destrier
Really do not enjoy the game... maybe in a month
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Post by situmas on Jan 21, 2017 11:13:52 GMT -5
I've sacked my grep hanger for a mix of heavy and one light gep or stalker. I've not seen any differences with MM . I'm about fifty games in and hoping to see a change soon. First match of the morning was our team with a mix of high heavies, me with my lvl 6/8 heavies and a red team with a [firetrucking] front line of 4 Furies with Trebs.
Got blasted so fast through 5 bots. Of course it was a long map which didn't help.
I feel like the MM does not match mixed level players not and ability. I'm not seeing any indication of a change, even when I do well, I don't have enough fire power to score points above 2 to 300k.
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Post by lephturn on Jan 21, 2017 12:44:27 GMT -5
Here is the thing - as a newer player following best practices (been here a month) I levelled weapons, not bots. That means I don't have the ability to field a medium or med/heavy hangar where bot level = weapon level unless it's all level 2 or 3. Even then, my Mags, Aphids, and Tarans are all 6 and 7, so I can't use "good" weapons. It's going to take me weeks to level up the meds and heavies so I can catch them up to the weapons I have.
But maybe guys like me are just caught in the change - maybe new players will be fine, and experienced players with a deep inventory of bots and weapons with different levels will be fine, and those like me and Dredd will just have to suck it up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 0:40:26 GMT -5
With all the players they should be able to do MM based on player lvl and hangar. A lvl 30 should be able to play lights and meds against other comparable players with the same bots. I really like mediums, I'm lvl 30, and I shouldn't be forced to pilot just heavies
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Post by flounder on Jan 22, 2017 11:59:21 GMT -5
With all the players they should be able to do MM based on player lvl and hangar. A lvl 30 should be able to play lights and meds against other comparable players with the same bots. I really like mediums, I'm lvl 30, and I shouldn't be forced to pilot just heavies This. I used to play all Thunder Schutze hanger (4/5) and I'd get matched with mediums and the occasional heavy (so I didn't feel like I was clubbing noobs ). Now that same hanger gets matched with all heavies, some I've never seen before, lol. And the energy weapons, WOW. BOOM! My little guy is dead in one shot. So I switched to my medium hanger - Golem with thunder/mag/Taran, and still got whacked by heavies. So I had to switch to my ragtag 'let's see what this does' set of heavies to actually win a match. My win rate fell like a rock (that's fine). Now I can play my medium hanger with some success but the light hanger is still matched with heavies, and as someone said above, I see a lot of stalkers now. So my tactic with my Schutze was to tuck in close to a heavy, that's the only was I could last. Will lights be useful on their own again? |
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Post by ivx on Jan 22, 2017 13:21:09 GMT -5
Will lights be useful on their own again? They should make the different weight categories and hangars a possibility again. Not like before, of course, but not like this either. Lights: I use mine as support. Since I'm forced to play with and against level 9 Rhinos, Galahads and Griffins and I'm months away from being the same level, I cap beacons and then get behind a team mate with a massive health pool and/or a shield. The incoming weapons mostly always target them and I position myself so they can't get an accurate shot even if their auto target switches to me. While lights aren't survivable, you can still do a fair bit of damage blasting them with plasma or rockets while a team mate soaks up the majority of it, plus it feels like team play. I've see a lot of Gepards, Garys and Stalkers spontaneously teaming up with Galahads and Rhinos on close range maps. I guess it just naturally happens, sitting out in the open makes you toast in a second and like this you can actually contribute (you won't get any gold or much silver, but you will contribute and feel mildly useful). It's not a terribly interesting long term way to play though. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 17:54:59 GMT -5
Doesn't look good. Thing I had is when MM changes, ya hit the map, and all hell breaks loose.
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pyguyofdoom
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yo dawg heard u like py
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Post by pyguyofdoom on Jan 22, 2017 18:43:27 GMT -5
I love light bots, but they just are severely outclassed in most ways, unless you are a wizard or gareth they die quickly
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Post by ΜØØSE on Jan 23, 2017 2:56:35 GMT -5
When I run all heavies, my win rate is about 45%. When I have one good, light bot for capping in the first two minutes and a medium for when quicker support is needed, my win rate is around 65%.
It helps to have a variety of well-configured bots for various situations. Light bots have their place, just don't fill your hangar with them and go toe-to-toe with all the heavies, the game will be over quick.
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Post by amoebastudios on Jan 23, 2017 14:31:58 GMT -5
The game is forcing me to play heavy bots basically. If I want to play a fast agile game (more strategic) I'm blasted to oblivion.
I hate slow heavy bots. Very little skill just bring the HP and firepower and stand on the red button.
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situmas
Destrier
Really do not enjoy the game... maybe in a month
Posts: 24
Karma: 17
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Post by situmas on Jan 24, 2017 7:50:33 GMT -5
It's weird, crazy Matches this weekend. About 100 games in and still my med/heavy 6 to 8 bots get lined up....{EXP} with Three T/T hangers and the rest with near T/T.
Movie Moment "It's Beautiful"....Independence Day (just before the blue light blasted them and the city of LA). The hangers did have crazy cool paint job though =^0
I'm running one light now, the stalker, works OK but still can't beat Trident, laden Furies. (really three of them!). So many explosions, almost seems wasteful.
Love this game!
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Thunder Carnage
GI. Patton
Out of the shadows, a horror emerged...
Posts: 140
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Pilot name: Pilot Hunter 203
Platform: iOS
Clan: Wut?
League: Gold
Server Region: Asia
Favorite robot: Thunder Carnage
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Post by Thunder Carnage on Jan 24, 2017 8:31:59 GMT -5
The stalker is fun. Play with it like you would play the 2016 reboot of DOOM. Always keep moving, never stop, and generally behave like you have balls which are the size of a Fury. Don't be afraid to cap beacons or piss off enemy knifers. That helps disrupt the enemy team and let's your teammates take the field.
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Post by flounder on Jan 24, 2017 21:38:30 GMT -5
Non premium light bots are hard to use now. I had my thunder Schutze hanger out for another test drive and oh look! A tri Zeus Fury that's cooBZZZZZZZZZZZZZP!!! Lol!
Personally I don't think non premium light bots and heavys should be matched together.
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situmas
Destrier
Really do not enjoy the game... maybe in a month
Posts: 24
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Post by situmas on Jan 25, 2017 7:29:12 GMT -5
wrt TFH; My thoughts exactly, If I see a close match pitching in Red's favor, I get the Stalker out. At times it's like herding sheep, they all start following my direction. Of course I'm going to get blasted or cornered if I'm not wary, but I've shifted enough of their frontline by then that (sometimes) it makes a differences. OR at least it's enjoyable enough to push the one last assault.
Current setup is with lvl9 Gek, but I'll rarely get a kill unless they're on their very very last leg.
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Post by AηɗυηєɗнєƖ [ǀƬA] on Jan 25, 2017 8:12:16 GMT -5
From another thread Immense kudos for the post.. it's very OCD and very wonkish and I like that a lot That said, two takeaways: a) Carnage. you notices Shutze disappearing, but failed to notice (in the post at least) the % of carnage jumping from about 0.5 to about 4. Carnages are the higher tier (well, whatever it is now) Shutzes. b) the role of lights: I agree about the Jessie, but I always thought that it was pointless proposition even before the new MM. Unless the switch time is equal or less than 3 seconds or other significant advantages, a three always available hardpoints bot was always a better choice than a 2+2. Lights in general with the new MM, it's still hard to see. as I see it, with a MM apparently heavily skewed in favor of ELO, lights can serve only one purpose: capping beacons fasts and repeatedly and only that. I think the times when lights could be used for beacons and damage is over (and even back then, it was just for the Gepard and the Shutze and, in a very limited way, an heavily aphid armed Stalker). Now, a fast light hangar with minimal weapons and lots of ecus will always get the 5 gold... assuming the rest of the squad can make up for the damage you won't do, which is rare in random MMed squads. Which is the reason I think the natural evolution will be to see specialized players with armored-maxed lights in clan squads and very little lights, except for stalkers and aphid gepards, being played otherwise. Well, until someone finds a way to game the new MM, and we know someone will, sooner than later. BTW, i expect to see patton aphids becoming even more ubiquitous. |
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Post by frunobulax on Jan 25, 2017 8:27:14 GMT -5
I would expect that Stalker, Gareth and maybe Cossack will survive as role players / beacon cappers. There are some situations where all you need is speed (if some reds have meched out but you're behind with beacons), and of course there's the matchup thing - on maps like Yama or Springfield you can try to get outside and flank to the far beacon, and if a robot intercepts then it's 5vs5 for the rest of the team, and you have a chance to get that beacon at least for a short time before the reds get you. If nobody intersects then you can safely cap the beacon and continue to roam free.
Having said that, that's not my style of playing and I'll stick to my Galahads as beacon runners. Small robots are out of my main hangar and only used for mm experiments.
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