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Post by stokr on Aug 15, 2017 11:04:49 GMT -5
Recently I read a post that got me to thinking about a few things. I've decided to share some personal thoughts on the game and it might be a little long. I really try not to do too much sharing, because I'm not very good at this stuff and I'm not naturally outgoing.
I've played War Robots for a bit now. I've had...oh...5 accounts over time. Accounts on 2 different phones, 1 tablet, 1 emulator, and recently FB. There's truths that were made clear to me through all those accounts and all the leveling that was done. Truths I denied for a long time. Try to bear with my rambling...
When I started War Robots it was in some ways simpler than it is today. The old MM was pretty cut and dry. It was easy to identify a tier being crossed, back off and sit at the top of the tier below acting, as a defacto wrecking ball. Some called this clubbing, some were more specific about defining a clubber. Either way, a person parking at the top of a tier could feel like a gaming god! They weren't though.
When the new MM hit I was one such minor god. I was able to hit 98% win rates solo. People like me in squads ran 100% win rates for 100+ matches. It was, unfortunately, confused with skill. I was a Boa guy. I ran 4 of 'em with an Aphid Gep for when I needed some speed. The new MM qualified me at Silver 3. 「whiskey tango foxtrot」!!! Yeah, that was my feeling. But, it was an accurate ranking. I sucked to a point. I mean I understood some basics, but I never really had to hone them too much, 'cause I just rolled over people. Probably the only thing that saved me at all was that Boa fighters were wall huggers and corner shooters. that gave me some basic skills to start. It wasn't really enough though.
I had built up over 1200, might have even been over 1500 wins by that time. I had lots of stuff bought (2 Galahads, Gareth, Lancelot, 2 Zeus, 3 Gekkos, etc), but nothing leveled, because if I used a light Brit, or a heavy back then I was instantly tossed up. The time had come to level some of that gear. At one point I picked up another device and started a new account to freshen things up. I brought it up to Silver 1. It took some time, but I had some knowledge from my time with my other account. Something happened to that device, so I got another and started another account. Between the two I went back and leveled my older account into Gold. My newest account I again raised to Silver 1.
Here's the thing though and I didn't notice at first. When I finally got my old account into Gold something in my play style had changed with that. When I went to level that next account to Silver 1 it was easier, faster. Noticeably so. I didn't think I was doing anything different, but I got to Silver 1 at a lower level than before with fewer matches. However, with my older account now in Gold my Silver account was just less interesting.
By the time I got my main account to Gold 1 I had decided to try the emulator thingy. So, I started another account. I jacked that one up to Silver 1 2 levels faster and over 30 matches faster. It was much easier. I moved it into Gold 3 without even trying.
However, the emulator seemed finicky and I didn't like being stuck on the 'puter, so back to my standby I went. I sat at Gold 1 for a bit during this. At one point I just started to rise again. At the time I didn't think I was doing anything different, but I was (I could tell you what I changed, but I'm not very good at this stuff and there are far better players than me who frequent these forums). I moved from the top of Gold 1 to the bottom of Diamond 2 in less than a week with a 78% win rate. I don't run any snipers and I don't run any beacon runners and had the same knifer with a mid-range set up as before. I'm currently in the middle of Diamond 2. I took a beating after that quick rise, but I never slipped back and still climb at a steady rate, though my play time is lower now with FB.
FB? Yes, I had an opportunity to play with a RL friend whose been sitting in Diamond on iOS (for me, after 10 months alone, it means a great deal to play with a friend). So, I started another account. I did what I've done before, aside from a single instance where I ran into someone running 2 ancilots and a Butch everything is fairly comparable to the other platforms at low levels. There just don't seem to be any real high levels yet. I jacked myself into Gold 3 with less than 100 won matches averaging over 84% win rate (it's the result of some skill vs no skill, not super skills, because those don't exist in this poster).
In the end I've pushed 5 different accounts through the lower tiers. Every time it got easier, but only after I obtained a steady state in the next league up.
For me there are some universal truths about this game that came from all of this.
The first universal truth: The skills from one league do not translate directly to the next with the only variable being bot/weapon levels.
If you think the skills used in Silver will translate automagically to success in the higher tiers, because the only difference is the level of bots/weapons, you're wrong. That's a fallacy and I myself believed it for a long time. It led to a lot of frustration and a lot of blaming the MM for my lot in War Robots life.
The second universal truth: Like it or not, the MM works.
This is just a fact. Ignore the tankers/faders, because that's not the MM picking bad matchups, but people cheating the system (in most cases, because they don't recognize the first universal truth). The more I review the teams on both sides the more I am convinced the matchups were fair and if I got wiped out I was just sucking. End of story. No excuses. The game changes, subtly, but it does change with the major league divisions.
The third universal truth: The people that are in a higher league (Silver vs Gold vs Diamond vs Expert etc) are not playing the same game, as the people in a lower league.
The higher levels are not playing the same game. They just aren't. I used to get pissed when I read the forums and I saw someone getting dismissed, because they weren't in a high enough league to comment. It still bothers me a little due to the attitude that often goes with it, but I now understand where it comes from. Advice from a Silver player doesn't apply to a Diamond player, but the reverse is true. The advice of a Diamond player absolutely applies to a Silver player. You can be trumped by a higher level! Live with it...
The fourth universal truth: Advancement is not assured.
If you're stuck within a league and your bots/weapons are equal to or higher than the average within the league it's your skills that lack. It's not your bot/weapon levels. It's not the MM. It's not bad luck. It's you. The most common option for people, because it's easier than learning/adjusting skills is to jack up bot/weapon levels. Jacking the levels of bots/weapons can only compensate for skill for so long though. At some point such artifice can no longer carry a person forward. The other players are bringing skills that cannot be overpowered and the bot/weapon levels cease to matter in the same way.
Skill is not necessarily time based. Playing longer doesn't assure skill improvements. We all have our limits. Without dynamic skills that can and do improve you will eventually plateau. Advancement is not a right. You're going to have to earn it. If you are currently in a plateau you and nothing else is what needs to change in order to generate meaningful progression.
I'm just a simple person that plays an average game and this is just my opinion based upon my limited experience.
Go easy...
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Post by Gilded Wolf on Aug 15, 2017 11:18:37 GMT -5
Outstanding post. The truth will set you free.
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Post by fatdogmagic on Aug 15, 2017 11:51:23 GMT -5
Great post
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kingdavid1
Destrier
Posts: 121
Karma: 60
Pilot name: King David1
Platform: iOS
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Favorite robot: Leo
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Post by kingdavid1 on Aug 15, 2017 12:00:25 GMT -5
Nothing but lies.... YOU SHALL BE PUNISHED!!!. I'm kidding obviously. I'm sure the majority of us who have played for a while can agree that it is the truth. Those who complaint about mm are either just tired of losing or keep going up and down on leagues. I personally don't have a problem with the MM unless it's during a special event with certain task.
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Post by Thunderkiss on Aug 15, 2017 12:00:39 GMT -5
God bless You!
Took me awhile to accept some of these things myself, but facts remain facts, despite refutations to the contrary. They're kind of naughty that way, and accepting them, learning from them and moving on with things is the way of least stress, and the most personal gain.
Carry on good sir, I applaud you!
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Post by CrownBlack on Aug 15, 2017 12:04:44 GMT -5
I love this post but..... I am going to respectfully disagree on #4. Yes advancement isn't a right. However if this game was played one vs one then your argument to me would be spot on. However this game is 6 vs 6. I cannot control what 5 players the MM put me with. Now at this point we have 6 individuals with 6 differing agendas teamed together. One might be tanking, one might be camping and another just wants to amass as much damage as possible. So winning isn't only based upon what I am doing but what my 5 other teammates are doing or not doing. I have played numerous matches where I have sucked bad and yet the team still won. Other times like the last game I played(where I topped 1million for the first time) I played great and yet we still lost. My point, my skill level cannot dictate the actions of 11 other individuals.
keep posting your opinions on here and don't be shy. Its great to get another pov.
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Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on Aug 15, 2017 12:10:33 GMT -5
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Post by chaz on Aug 15, 2017 12:26:28 GMT -5
I will agree with most of this. Doing well in the game has just as much to do with skill as it does with bot/weapon levels. Being smart with your bots, picking good loadouts, knowing when to be aggressive vs. sneaky vs. strategic, etc. all have such a huge impact on the game. I am by no means a highly skilled player, but when I use my bots advantages and make good choices in the game, I tend to do so much better.
IMO, though, the MM is far from infallible, especially in higher leagues. And I'm not talking about tankers skewing results. I'm talking about straight up mismatches. Entire teams of maxed out hangars vs. 9-10s. Diamond leaguers vs. Champion leaguers. One pilot using a L8 Destrier while a pilot on the other team has a hangar full of Lances. Maybe it's that in lower leagues there is a large enough pool of players to make the MM more consistently successful? Maybe it values win rate and pairing players across teams too much? With all the tweaks they've made to the game, I can't really say what the root cause is, but I definitely can't say that the MM is good at its job all the time.
Now, having said all of this, I will say that matchmaking is not an easy thing. It probably can't ever be super accurate all the time. And that's fine. I usually only post about the MM when I want to vent or I want a sanity check to make sure that something didn't change radically that I'm unaware of. And ultimately, I'm still in a fair amount of good matches and it tends to even out over the long run anyway. The game is a great time and it's not hard to overlook the bad matches.
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inspirace
Trusted Contributor
Posts: 2,670
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Favorite robot: Rog, Griff, Carn, Doc, Rhino, Haechi, Kumiho, Bulgasari, Mender, Inquisitor, Spectre, Strider,
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Post by inspirace on Aug 15, 2017 12:44:21 GMT -5
the one time I didn't like MM was when it forced 50% win rate too narrowly. at that time I could almost predict the next match result based on my win rate, and it was boring. but that norrow enforcement was lifted at one point and I was more or less happy afterward.
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Post by Firebeard on Aug 15, 2017 15:00:52 GMT -5
Good Post.
I was interested up until the "The Fourth Universal Truth." That 'Truth' would only be applicable if it was a lone Player vs. Opponent(s). Then you could claim Pilot error. Since this is team gameplay, there are too many circumstances in which outside factors can contribute to a Loss.
But good read.
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Post by moflete on Aug 15, 2017 15:47:23 GMT -5
Very good post. I somehow feel identified with the ones that from time to time wonder about the real mechanics of MM. I posted recently my current experience of being meticulosuly nailed at 50% win rate and expert 3, and when I enter into the 5 battles qualy to move up, I just get shamefully beaten in 6 minutes battles and, worst of all, by 6 reds entirely comparable to my team. All in all, it is out of the question that I am lacking skill to move forward (I have learned to not care much about it), but my point is, although I substantially agree with all your comment, I am a bit suspiscious of the unbiased mechanics of MM. Bear in mind that, at the end of the day, Pix is a company that wants you to spend money in getting your best possible hangar asap (although not a pay-to-win game....... yet....). Hope to read more post of yours here. Cheers!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 16:25:59 GMT -5
Advice from a Silver player doesn't apply to a Diamond player, but the reverse is true. The advice of a Diamond player absolutely applies to a Silver player. Preach it!
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waffles
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Post by waffles on Aug 15, 2017 21:24:01 GMT -5
The first universal truth: Skills from one league do not translate directly to the next The second universal truth: Like it or not, the MM works The third universal truth: The people that are in a higher league are not playing the same game as the people in a lower league. The fourth universal truth: Advancement is not assured Newton? Einstein? Maxwell? Stokr?
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Post by Vindictive999 on Aug 16, 2017 5:54:01 GMT -5
Great read, hope everyone reads this a few times and lets it sink in. There are defo a few who need to accept this! Well done mate.
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Post by shakingrabbit on Aug 16, 2017 6:39:11 GMT -5
Great post.
Only one I take issue with is the MM.
If you accept that an ELO system is a good implementation for a team game then sure the MM works. It works very well. It works too well at times.
If you accept that the MM cannot adequately compensaate for a change in hangar levels then sure the MM works.
If you accept that the MM cannot properly compensate for varying hangar strengths during squad play then sure the MM works.
Which kinda, sorta circles back to my first point which is that the MM doesn't work in its current iteration for a team game.
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Post by Vindictive999 on Aug 16, 2017 7:21:40 GMT -5
Great post. Only one I take issue with is the MM. If you accept that an ELO system is a good implementation for a team game then sure the MM works. It works very well. It works too well at times. If you accept that the MM cannot adequately compensaate for a change in hangar levels then sure the MM works. If you accept that the MM cannot properly compensate for varying hangar strengths during squad play then sure the MM works. Which kinda, sorta circles back to my first point which is that the MM doesn't work in its current iteration for a team game. Totally agree with regarding the squad MM but I think it takes in different variables. Ie it priorities you against other squad what ever their league or level...
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Post by moody on Aug 16, 2017 7:42:02 GMT -5
Good Post. I was interested up until the "The Fourth Universal Truth." That 'Truth' would only be applicable if it was a lone Player vs. Opponent(s). Then you could claim Pilot error. Since this is team gameplay, there are too many circumstances in which outside factors can contribute to a Loss. But good read. This truth is not talking about a single match, but about your contribution to all matches. It's all about averages. If your contribution has a small negative effect on average, then some small percentage will be losses which would otherwise be wins. Over time you can't blame your team mates for losing, as your average team mates will have around the same ability as you. Ps i am not singling you out. Your post seemed worth clarifying.
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Post by SoCalGrndR on Aug 16, 2017 9:25:29 GMT -5
I salute you Sir Stokr! Very well thought out post.
I would add this - (Not to judge anyone) but to differentiate your approach to the game. A) Do you play to just to play, enjoy the game itself, not concerned with leagues. B) Want to reach a certain higher tier/league. High priority on moving up.
For group (B) Pilots: * understand & accept that MM over time will place you in the correct tier 1) evaluate your play - constantly 2) adapt - willingness to change 3) overcome - apply the changes with necessary skill
One thing that I have read, accepted, and know to be true. (from time at the tables, studying, reading, watching, etc.....) *Poker* If you do not evaluate [(your play) honestly] - not others, you will not improve.
Fundamental difference - when you lose. * what is you 1st thought 1) the other - whatever.......red, team, MM - caused my defeat 2) What mistake(s) did <I> just make
If your mindset is not #2, that is your Biggest obstacle to overcome to improve! With out that change, your success will be very limited.
Remove the 1st month or so of my play time, before deciding that I really like this game. I have watched 95%+ of my battles till the end. That is over 4500 victories and countless defeats. If you are not willing to learn from those that just defeated you...... I will have already won when the WAR before you step on My battlefield... you may defeat me in this battle or the next or the next, but I am learning from you.... I will adapt.... I will be able to defeat the you next battle and the next.... I am willing to continually evaluate and adapt, are you.....
Just some thoughts about play after your post,
Hope that helps!
SoCal
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Post by bugdoc on Aug 16, 2017 10:26:24 GMT -5
Excellent post! No point in crying about the MM putting you up against 800 lb gorillas, because the next game you will be the 800 lb gorilla. I actually adjust my strategy once I recognize the type of competition I'm facing. If my opponents take damage easily and aren't using cover effectively, I know I've been pitted against Diamond and Gold and will go on spawn raids in my ancilots (often resulting in quick victories and lots of silver). If my opponents are playing well, I play a more measured game of taking and holding key beacons while preserving my bots. Lastly, if I see that I'm in a team of randoms pitted against a full squad of Champs, I try to get in as much damage as I can before we get steamrolled.
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