|
|
Post by ѻﻭɼﻉ on May 24, 2020 9:52:17 GMT -5
PLEASE NOTE: on page 2 of this thread, Linearblade presents mathematical counter argument to some of what I mention in the op below. So to save you the time, I will be editing the op later tonight.
******^^^^
Below is my response in a Reddit thread that was saying it is ok to fire at active Leeches with Corrosion weapons. I’m putting it here because people here have also promoted the same misunderstanding.
A few things to consider:
1) It is not difficult to know if a Leech is active if you pay attention to the pulsing Damage Resistance icon above the Leech. The reason people have a hard time knowing is because they are looking for the glow, expanded weapon chassis, or it not taking much damage. Look for the icon and you will always know for sure
2) Regarding the title, I keep seeing people say this. There is some misunderstanding. While it is true that the DoT effect ignores the damage resistance, the base damage itself does not, and 35% of that base damage is transferred to the Repulse recipient. Therefore, it makes no sense to fire such weapons at an active Leech thinking its no big deal, because you are destroying the hp of whoever the Leech is tethered to.
It is also worth mentioning for those curious, that DoT effect itself does not transfer to the Repulse recipient, only 35% of the base damage does
3) Corrosion weapons are really not meant to counter Leech, they’re meant to counter Phantom, Invader, Falcon, Fenrir, Titans, and other mechs with damage resistance.
4) People will never stop firing at an active Leech for a number of reasons, so where possible, the counters to being destroyed as the Repulse recipient are things like:
- being in a mech that has damage resistance and high hp
- activating Advance Repair Unit
- activating Phase Shift
- Ravana Transcendence ability
- move beyond the range of Repulse to break the tether
The issue with the very last one is this doesn’t always work, and people have noticed the Repulse tether remaining connected to them up to almost 600m. It is nevertheless worth a try if you are already near the stated maximum threshold (500m).
Part of what should attract us to a game is the challenge of trying to beat it. War Robots has become an increasingly complex puzzle, and while it is not always possible to beat every scenario every time, it is up to us to examine ways to solve the ever-changing tactical puzzle. Posting in social media telling people to stop shooting active Leeches will never be an effective counter to Repulse. Take matters into your own hands using tactics mentioned above and you will reduce or completely block the damage transference to you from a Leech more often than not.
|
|
JFSoul
Destrier
Posts: 87
Karma: 181
|
Post by JFSoul on May 24, 2020 9:57:02 GMT -5
Good stuff as always--I'm going to beat you to it and cross-post to Reddit!  Edit: And after re-reading your intro, I realize I'm a donkey, since you originally posted this in Reddit. Still bookmarking it though! |
|
|
|
Post by ѻﻭɼﻉ on May 24, 2020 10:28:49 GMT -5
Good stuff as always--I'm going to beat you to it and cross-post to Reddit! Edit: And after re-reading your intro, I realize I'm a donkey, since you originally posted this in Reddit. Still bookmarking it though! Someone suggested it maybe be reposted in Reddit as it’s own thing under Tactics, so I did that also. There have been some intelligent responses too: - ‘The DR icon doesn’t necessarily mean the Leech is active’. Battleborne, Invulnerable Raider, and Adamant Guardian are other examples of times the DR icon appears. So my response here is that the DR icon should be the first stage of assessing the Leech. This should instantly cause you to check if there are Repulse animations. This tactic happens really quick. - Someone also commented there are cases where it is ok to fire, such as the Leech almost being dead, or when the recipient has Last Stand or Phase activated, or they are a Ravana in Transcendence and so on. That is where voice comms helps, people calling out they’re in Phase Shift and to go ahead and shoot... - Another pointed out there is a special quality of the titan weapons that not only bypasses the Leech DR but if you watch the hp of the Repulse recipient carefully, you will see that not much damage is being transferred to them. |
|
|
|
Post by kamikazejohnson on May 24, 2020 10:37:18 GMT -5
1) Unfortunately, just going by the Damage Resistance indicator (and obscured details due to environmental elements, small screen, and questionable eyesight) I've held off shooting at Phantoms, Falcons, Fenrirs, and many Bots running Invulnerable Raider or Adamant Guardian. That sysmbol does not GUARANTEE that the target is a Leech. So when in doubt, people shoot.
|
|
|
|
Post by foxypotato on May 24, 2020 11:21:10 GMT -5
I really wish they would add a indicator above the HP bar to indicate that the bot is a Leech in repulse. Maybe something similar to the Pantheon HP bars or the falcon broken shield indicator. Some player don't care and will light up a Leech and kill a teammate. Ao Jun are the worst. When this happens to me purposefully I will wait in a Leech latches onto them and then nuke it with Vortex/Aphid/Thermite and death mark. Well I used to. Those weapons do zero damage to Leech now even out of repulse and with a solid hit.
|
|
RONIN1
Destrier
Posts: 74
Karma: 95
Pilot name: RONIN
Platform: Android
Clan: [NE] Nitro Elite
League: Champion
|
Post by RONIN1 on May 24, 2020 11:30:45 GMT -5
Normally I agree with the tactics/strategies you post ѻﻭɼﻉ , but not this time. While it's not ideal, corrosion weapons are really the best counter we have against Leeches aside from Titan weapons. I have a Viper Ao Jun, and when I'm in it, you better believe I'm targeting Leeches whether they are tethered or not. And you may think that I'm not a good player for doing so, but what's the alternative. If I don't shoot at the Leech while they are tethered to a blue, they are likely going to kill whoever they are targeting and then whoever they (the Leeches) are tethered to when they are ready. In this scenario, the Leech gets off at least 2 kills, likely more, while having little to no damage done to it. In my scenario, I either kill or seriously damage the Leech in exchange for a teammate's bot, a 1 for 1 exchange. Again, not great but better than the first scenario. Some would say, why not wait until the Leech's ability is on cooldown and attack it then. Here's the thing, most Leech players only expose themselves when they have their ability available, and trying to get to them when they're behind cover is usually fruitless because they mostly run Phase Shift. And we all know how that goes. So yeah, if I'm on your team and a Leech is tethered to me, you have my permission to shoot the ?dookie? out of it if you're running a corrosion build. Also, not sure how "Activating stealth" and "Disguise unit" would help since it doesn't break the tether. Unless you're saying you should activate stealth before being tethered to, in which case Disguise Unit doesn't make sense since it activates passively. |
|
|
|
Post by [WÎČK] Cap’nAHAB on May 24, 2020 11:40:41 GMT -5
If solo I shoot. When squading no shoot! Bwahahaha!
|
|
|
|
Post by ѻﻭɼﻉ on May 24, 2020 11:45:59 GMT -5
Normally I agree with the tactics/strategies you post ѻﻭɼﻉ , but not this time. While it's not ideal, corrosion weapons are really the best counter we have against Leeches aside from Titan weapons. I have a Viper Ao Jun, and when I'm in it, you better believe I'm targeting Leeches whether they are tethered or not. And you may think that I'm not a good player for doing so, but what's the alternative. If I don't shoot at the Leech while they are tethered to a blue, they are likely going to kill whoever they are targeting and then whoever they (the Leeches) are tethered to when they are ready. In this scenario, the Leech gets off at least 2 kills, likely more, while having little to no damage done to it. In my scenario, I either kill or seriously damage the Leech in exchange for a teammate's bot, a 1 for 1 exchange. Again, not great but better than the first scenario. Some would say, why not wait until the Leech's ability is on cooldown and attack it then. Here's the thing, most Leech players only expose themselves when they have their ability available, and trying to get to them when they're behind cover is usually fruitless because they mostly run Phase shift. And we all know how that goes. So yeah, if I'm on your team and a Leech is tethered to me, you have my permission to shoot the ?dookie? out of it if you're running a corrosion build. Also, not sure how "Activating stealth" and "Disguise unit" would help since it doesn't break the tether. Unless you're saying you should activate stealth before being tethered to, in which case Disguise Unit doesn't make sense since it activates passively. Good points, though I still think hunting post-ability Leeches is better than killing teammates when possible. About stealth and DU, ai completely forgot after being tethered the stealth doesn’t prevent damage transfer. Will edit in a bit. Thx |
|
|
|
Post by foxypotato on May 24, 2020 12:09:26 GMT -5
If you have DoT weapons then it is fair game to shoot a Leech while they are latched onto a blue. Just don't fire Avengers or Glacier at it.
|
|
|
|
Post by ⓣⓡⓘⓒⓚⓨ48 on May 24, 2020 12:31:40 GMT -5
Normally I agree with the tactics/strategies you post ѻﻭɼﻉ , but not this time. While it's not ideal, corrosion weapons are really the best counter we have against Leeches aside from Titan weapons. I have a Viper Ao Jun, and when I'm in it, you better believe I'm targeting Leeches whether they are tethered or not. And you may think that I'm not a good player for doing so, but what's the alternative. If I don't shoot at the Leech while they are tethered to a blue, they are likely going to kill whoever they are targeting and then whoever they (the Leeches) are tethered to when they are ready. In this scenario, the Leech gets off at least 2 kills, likely more, while having little to no damage done to it. In my scenario, I either kill or seriously damage the Leech in exchange for a teammate's bot, a 1 for 1 exchange. Again, not great but better than the first scenario. Some would say, why not wait until the Leech's ability is on cooldown and attack it then. Here's the thing, most Leech players only expose themselves when they have their ability available, and trying to get to them when they're behind cover is usually fruitless because they mostly run Phase Shift. And we all know how that goes. So yeah, if I'm on your team and a Leech is tethered to me, you have my permission to shoot the ?dookie? out of it if you're running a corrosion build. Also, not sure how "Activating stealth" and "Disguise unit" would help since it doesn't break the tether. Unless you're saying you should activate stealth before being tethered to, in which case Disguise Unit doesn't make sense since it activates passively. Quoting this post just to keep the points that have been made on both sides in mind, not necessarily responding to this post. Yeah, for me it's so situational... there are some situations where I shoot them no matter what I have equipped or whether they are tethered or not, others I am more selective and keep searching for a different target. All the points in this thread, so far, are valid in one scenario or another. ѻﻭɼﻉ... I just don't think there is an absolute rule in this regard. DoT, LD weapons, and even Cryo weapons are sometimes worth using even while they are tethered. The individual situation determines this. If the game is on the line then all bets are off. If I can find a way to do something else that will benefit the team rather than attack the Leech, I will do that instead. So, while yes, getting the word out there to pay attention to the Leech and its ability is good, it is not always better to just let the Leech do whatever it wants in order to keep a Blue that may not be in danger at that moment directly, safe. Sometimes, they gotta go down for the betterment of the team. The DR symbol discrepancies have already been addressed, so I won't get into that. Lastly, I don't always make the right call in the heat of battle, and I actually try to pay attention to these things. If a player isn't that in tune with the battle then they may not even know that they are firing at a Leech, much less recognize if it is Leeching, especially if they play a ranged build on a smaller phone. So, again, I am not saying that keeping folks aware of ways to not shoot them and the facts about DoT vs Repulse is a bad thing, but I do want to stress that there are definitely times when shooting the Leech, even while Tethered, is the best move. IMO, YMMV |
|
6kings7
Destrier
Posts: 40
Karma: 35
|
Post by 6kings7 on May 24, 2020 12:39:41 GMT -5
Good strategies, but you should also look at the HP of the blue being attacked because if they are going down anyway, they sure as heck want to take the Leech with them. And drawing fire while teammates KILL your 1-to-1 is a sure strategy - even if not a favorite. At first, it was hands off a Leech in action until you assess. BUT at this point, I typically start firing on a Leech automatically and then let up if I see them in the midst of damage transfer only to pile it back on the minute they stop OR their blue target is crashing. It is especially hard to calculate in the midst of a bot scrum at center beacon. And those frickin' leeches are almost always the last ones standing. We all need a good wingman on those!
|
|
|
|
Post by seanh on May 24, 2020 13:18:29 GMT -5
I found this interesting, to a point I did something I just about never do. I went and checked some numbers on the Wiki.
God help me.
Anyway, agree with all the various sentiments about being a considerate teammate and also the situation needs to sometimes just end the leech. But the bit I wanted to check was the DoT impact on the leech and the base damage impact on my blue buddy. I looked a vipers, because that is what I have myself (no idea if other DoT weps operate the same percentages). But a Vipers DoT impact, rather unhelpfully varies slightly by level. But appears to approximately 10% (level 1.1 is 9.82% / level 2.12 is 10.73%, and its not linear at all)additional DoT, per second over a five second period. Not inconsiderable.
But taking the maxed viper as an example my back of the envelope effort would lead me to believe that for ever 100 base damage the total damage is 154 over 5 seconds. 64 of that hits the leech (over the 5 seconds) 35 of that hits my blue buddy (immediately). So absolutely best case scenario is 55% of the damage you do to the leech gets repaid onto the blue.
Considering the presumably pressing need to end the leech and the fact doing complex DoT calculations in a firefight is not everyone's forte, I would think most will just keep mushing the red button until the leach is dead. Meaning that a considerable additional amount of unnecessary base damage will be transferred to the blue before the leech pops.
So while I agree, sometimes the leech needs to die, I don't think using a corrosion weapon should in any way easy your conscience. Your blue buddy is being sacrificed pretty much either way I think.
I would think in a bad situation the longer you can leave it before opening up on the leech, the better the chance the blue has. But sometimes every second counts.
Feel free to pick apart my dodgy maths, I am sure it won't be hard.
|
|
|
|
Post by muckingfuppet on May 24, 2020 13:40:13 GMT -5
I shoot active leeches with dragon breathe only, they go to phase shift or die.
|
|
|
|
Post by ѻﻭɼﻉ on May 24, 2020 13:42:44 GMT -5
If you have DoT weapons then it is fair game to shoot a Leech while they are latched onto a blue. Just don't fire Avengers or Glacier at it. What you just said is exactly why I wrote this. Ronin does make a fair point, but I don’t believe it is so black and white, and hitting non-active Leeches will prevent needless damage to allies. The main point of my post is it doesn’t matter that your DoT ignores the Leech’s damage resistance because the base damage output of your weapons (not the DoT element of your salvo) is still having 35% of that redirected to enemies. People can do whatever they want with firing at Leeches, but just because you may be using corrosion weapons doesn’t mean you aren’t doing 35% damage to yourself or an ally. |
|
|
|
Post by rags on May 24, 2020 14:08:01 GMT -5
This thread just proved that Ao Jun pilots are the worst.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rollo Tomasi on May 24, 2020 15:03:22 GMT -5
Hmmm, I just figured that since Adrian in BR killed me by firing on a Red Leech tethered to me, I figured you ALWAYS fire on Leech.
It was a really funny death. I’m fully under cover in my Fun Hanger Strider (no Last Stand), Leech-tethered and health starts dropping. I had a great view from CB on Yaman of Adrian chasing down the Leech. Then my Heavy blows off...health still dropping...right weapons blows off...dropping....Rollo Dead by Repulse.
|
|
|
|
Post by foxypotato on May 24, 2020 15:08:47 GMT -5
If you have DoT weapons then it is fair game to shoot a Leech while they are latched onto a blue. Just don't fire Avengers or Glacier at it. What you just said is exactly why I wrote this. Ronin does make a fair point, but I don’t believe it is so black and white, and hitting non-active Leeches will prevent needless damage to allies. The main point of my post is it doesn’t matter that your DoT ignores the Leech’s damage resistance because the base damage output of your weapons (not the DoT element of your salvo) is still having 35% of that redirected to enemies. People can do whatever they want with firing at Leeches, but just because you may be using corrosion weapons doesn’t mean you aren’t doing 35% damage to yourself or an ally. Fair point. I look at is if someone can actually damage the Leech then go ahead. Firing regular weapons while the Leech has 90% damage resistance accomplishes nothing but killing a teammate. If you can bypass that damage resistance and actually hurt the Leech then go for it. I've seen them turn around and run for cover durring an attack after they see their HP start to move while in DR mode. |
|
|
|
Post by foxypotato on May 24, 2020 15:14:42 GMT -5
If you have DoT weapons then it is fair game to shoot a Leech while they are latched onto a blue. Just don't fire Avengers or Glacier at it. What you just said is exactly why I wrote this. Ronin does make a fair point, but I don’t believe it is so black and white, and hitting non-active Leeches will prevent needless damage to allies. The main point of my post is it doesn’t matter that your DoT ignores the Leech’s damage resistance because the base damage output of your weapons (not the DoT element of your salvo) is still having 35% of that redirected to enemies. People can do whatever they want with firing at Leeches, but just because you may be using corrosion weapons doesn’t mean you aren’t doing 35% damage to yourself or an ally. Some of the corrosion weapons have higher DoT than others. I'm not a fan of firing Vipers at Leech because the DoT affect is so small. Wasp on the other hand can really take a chunk out of a Leech with DoT but have relatively poor base damage. I've also seen Blitz with maxed Stings do a number on Leech while imparting relatively low damage to blues. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2020 15:30:14 GMT -5
I think your advice might be valid for squad play, but not solo. Most random blue teammates are morons, and the reality is that you are competing against them as well. Always shoot the Leech.
|
|
|
|
Post by foxypotato on May 24, 2020 15:43:30 GMT -5
I think your advice might be valid for squad play, but not solo. Most random blue teammates are morons, and the reality is that you are competing against them as well. Always shoot the Leech. Let me guess. Big fan of the Ao Jun? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2020 17:02:13 GMT -5
I think your advice might be valid for squad play, but not solo. Most random blue teammates are morons, and the reality is that you are competing against them as well. Always shoot the Leech. Let me guess. Big fan of the Ao Jun? Let me guess - big fan of hanging out in Masters / low Champ with crappy old legacy bots? |
|
|
|
Post by foxypotato on May 24, 2020 17:13:05 GMT -5
Let me guess. Big fan of the Ao Jun? Let me guess - big fan of hanging out in Masters / low Champ with crappy old legacy bots? Yes!  |
|
6kings7
Destrier
Posts: 40
Karma: 35
|
Post by 6kings7 on May 24, 2020 20:36:18 GMT -5
Good strategies, but you should also look at the HP of the blue being attacked because if they are going down anyway, they sure as heck want to take the Leech with them. And drawing fire while teammates KILL your 1-to-1 is a sure strategy - even if not a favorite. At first, it was hands off a Leech in action until you assess. BUT at this point, I typically start firing on a Leech automatically and then let up if I see them in the midst of damage transfer only to pile it back on the minute they stop OR their blue target is crashing. It is especially hard to calculate in the midst of a bot scrum at center beacon. And those frickin' leeches are almost always the last ones standing. We all need a good wingman on those!
|
|
|
|
Post by bayscout on May 24, 2020 20:55:28 GMT -5
Ummm...shoot red leach...heal blue tethered to red leach. All is copacetic.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sebenza 21 on May 24, 2020 21:26:56 GMT -5
I think a supressed leach has its damage transfer supressed as well.
35% dmg transferred becomes 3.5%.
This needs confirmation and is based on an encounter my rayker had with a shotgun leach before the shotgun nerf.
|
|
|
|
Post by gravediggers on May 24, 2020 21:37:05 GMT -5
I have a level 9 leech has a lot of candy attached to .But as you can see on the left in the damaged area that I'm being hit by a lot of different stuff and I get minimal damage to my leech  |
|
|
|
Post by CarlosDanger on May 24, 2020 22:11:51 GMT -5
Maybe someone can test this... Maybe it was just my imagination... Maybe the Leech was suppressed? Anyway, here’s my story....
I had a leech on me, not the kind that attaches itself to your male nether regions while wading through a swamp with Wil Wheaton. I’m talking about the robot you often see with 4 shotguns mounted on it. But it had like maybe 20% life left and someone from my team popped it with something big. Wiped out the rest of its life, And I took zero damage, so I have been wondering if you reduce its life to zero in one huge gap is it dead BEFORE it can pass on damage?
This also begs the question... what was it that hit this dude?
|
|
|
|
Post by rags on May 24, 2020 23:01:37 GMT -5
Maybe someone can test this... Maybe it was just my imagination... Maybe the Leech was suppressed? Anyway, here’s my story.... I had a leech on me, not the kind that attaches itself to your male nether regions while wading through a swamp with Wil Wheaton. I’m talking about the robot you often see with 4 shotguns mounted on it. But it had like maybe 20% life left and someone from my team popped it with something big. Wiped out the rest of its life, And I took zero damage, so I have been wondering if you reduce its life to zero in one huge gap is it dead BEFORE it can pass on damage? This also begs the question... what was it that hit this dude? sounds like it got hit with vortex or thermite |
|
|
|
Post by Method Games[YT] on May 24, 2020 23:06:41 GMT -5
2) Regarding the title, I keep seeing people say this. There is some misunderstanding. While it is true that the DoT effect ignores the damage resistance, the base damage itself does not, and 35% of that base damage is transferred to the Repulse recipient. Therefore, it makes no sense to fire such weapons at an active Leech thinking its no big deal, because you are destroying the hp of whoever the Leech is tethered to. 3) Corrosion weapons are really not meant to counter Leech, they’re meant to counter Phantom, Invader, Falcon, Fenrir, Titans, and other mechs with damage resistance. I will go out of my way to 1 on 1 a Leech tethered to me when I'm in Cerberus with Viper/Wasp. I cannot recall any time that a Leech defeated this setup unless they have AC and/or PS available, then I'm toast!. If they get suppressed/locked down, it's all over for them and I will sustain maybe 1/4 damage to base health. If someone else is shooting a Leech tethered to me, well that's a different story. I can be wiped out just from that one suckhole. |
|
|
|
Post by rags on May 24, 2020 23:27:53 GMT -5
2) Regarding the title, I keep seeing people say this. There is some misunderstanding. While it is true that the DoT effect ignores the damage resistance, the base damage itself does not, and 35% of that base damage is transferred to the Repulse recipient. Therefore, it makes no sense to fire such weapons at an active Leech thinking its no big deal, because you are destroying the hp of whoever the Leech is tethered to. 3) Corrosion weapons are really not meant to counter Leech, they’re meant to counter Phantom, Invader, Falcon, Fenrir, Titans, and other mechs with damage resistance. I will go out of my way to 1 on 1 a Leech tethered to me when I'm in Cerberus with Viper/Wasp. I cannot recall any time that a Leech defeated this setup unless they have Anticontrol and/or Phase Shift available, then I'm toast!. If they get suppressed/locked down, it's all over for them and I will sustain maybe 1/4 damage to base health. If someone else is shooting a Leech tethered to me, well that's a different story. I can be wiped out just from that one suckhole. same I’ll go out of my way to hunt down any leech that tethers me. I don’t run corrosion but I run fast builds that can get to it while it’s hiding. |
|
![[WÎČK] Cap’nAHAB Avatar](http://storage.proboards.com/6607038/images/OuKSi978FMhqrm9hw6mi.png)
![Method Games[YT] Avatar](http://storage.proboards.com/6607038/avatar/mOPEQaJWHRihsoWsYnev.jpg)
