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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 18:57:30 GMT -5
I'm seeing 6/5 and 6/6 heavies almost regardless of what I run. So there have been some changes that aren't captured by this method. I suspect this is some way of helping out the newbies who buy a leo or natasha as soon as they are available, not realizing how highly MM was weighting them.
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typewriter
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Post by typewriter on Dec 5, 2016 0:22:23 GMT -5
Kudos to TintehFiend for creating the guide.
However I am quite sure this is now obsolete. Not just the possible 10% - 30% discount for heavies, but also the weighting of weapon level vs bot level.
My hangar used to be any 5 of the following: 6/7 Orkan Cossack 8/6 Taran Cossack 2/9 Magnum Gepard 6/7,1 Thunder Taran Boa 5/6,6,1 Thunder Taran Magnum Golem 3/5 Pinata Patton
So all of them should be around 405 points. Winrate hovered at ~60% And with any combination of them I faced pretty much a same level of opponents. 4/7 silver mediums, 4/8 lights, 6/3 Griffs and Leos are the average. Every now and then there is the 5x 4/12 mag gep with 80%+ winrate, the occasional Fujin. And the very rare Rhinos and Galahads.
As an experiment I tried adding a 7/3 Mag patton at 405 points for 10 matches or so and I faced stronger opponents. I thought it was just happenstance. And then I tried a 9/1 Mag Patton, which should be 365 points, and voila, I was matched against all premium mediums and heavies every match, for around 10 matches, not during power hour. 8/8 Rhinos were pretty standard, and one time there was even a 8/12 Leo.
When I benched the 9/1 Mag Patton and I get lvl 20 opponents with 4/6 Vityaz and the like again.
I know there is supposed to be a dispersion of hangar scores between players matched so my 9/1 Patton is prolly not the same score as the 8/12 Leo, even after accounting for winrate (his wasn't low anyway). But I think I have enough samples and see a large enough difference to conclude that the 9/1 Mag Patton is rated higher by the MM than my other bots.
If the current MM is still score-based now and only parameters are tweaked, I would guess the score increase for 1 bot level is the same as 1 weapon level, rather than 2 bot levels for 1 weapon level.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 1:25:40 GMT -5
Kudos to TintehFiend for creating the guide. However I am quite sure this is now obsolete. Not just the possible 10% - 30% discount for heavies, but also the weighting of weapon level vs bot level. My hangar used to be any 5 of the following: 6/7 Orkan Cossack 8/6 Taran Cossack 2/9 Magnum Gepard 6/7,1 Thunder Taran Boa 5/6,6,1 Thunder Taran Magnum Golem 3/5 Pinata Patton So all of them should be around 405 points. Winrate hovered at ~60% And with any combination of them I faced pretty much a same level of opponents. 4/7 silver mediums, 4/8 lights, 6/3 Griffs and Leos are the average. Every now and then there is the 5x 4/12 mag gep with 80%+ winrate, the occasional Fujin. And the very rare Rhinos and Galahads. As an experiment I tried adding a 7/3 Mag patton at 405 points for 10 matches or so and I faced stronger opponents. I thought it was just happenstance. And then I tried a 9/1 Mag Patton, which should be 365 points, and voila, I was matched against all premium mediums and heavies every match, for around 10 matches, not during power hour. 8/8 Rhinos were pretty standard, and one time there was even a 8/12 Leo. When I benched the 9/1 Mag Patton and I get lvl 20 opponents with 4/6 Vityaz and the like again. I know there is supposed to be a dispersion of hangar scores between players matched so my 9/1 Patton is prolly not the same score as the 8/12 Leo, even after accounting for winrate (his wasn't low anyway). But I think I have enough samples and see a large enough difference to conclude that the 9/1 Mag Patton is rated higher by the MM than my other bots. If the current MM is still score-based now and only parameters are tweaked, I would guess the score increase for 1 bot level is the same as 1 weapon level, rather than 2 bot levels for 1 weapon level. Next week I planned to do some testing myself. Grinding does get boring lol. From all of the MM disparity, it is my hope that they at least equalized the base scores of bot/weapon levels, as previously, weapon levels were almost double the bot levels, and if so, my next hope is that they're using the higher value between the two for MM. Going to be upgrading some destriers and cossacks....again lol Experiment will be as follows @10 games each: 1/1 bots/weaps 1/7 bots/weaps Then going to record the shifts in opposition on the way to 7/7. Not going to kill myself, so just doing it with lights. I usually club with 1/7 Destrier/cossack/shutze, lately Ive been running into more and more 6/5 heavies, which by the old info, shouldnt happen. If there is no change from 1/7 to 7/7, them MM is using the higher level instead of both.
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typewriter
Destrier
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League: Silver
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Post by typewriter on Dec 5, 2016 1:45:22 GMT -5
Kudos to TintehFiend for creating the guide. However I am quite sure this is now obsolete. Not just the possible 10% - 30% discount for heavies, but also the weighting of weapon level vs bot level. My hangar used to be any 5 of the following: 6/7 Orkan Cossack 8/6 Taran Cossack 2/9 Magnum Gepard 6/7,1 Thunder Taran Boa 5/6,6,1 Thunder Taran Magnum Golem 3/5 Pinata Patton So all of them should be around 405 points. Winrate hovered at ~60% And with any combination of them I faced pretty much a same level of opponents. 4/7 silver mediums, 4/8 lights, 6/3 Griffs and Leos are the average. Every now and then there is the 5x 4/12 mag gep with 80%+ winrate, the occasional Fujin. And the very rare Rhinos and Galahads. As an experiment I tried adding a 7/3 Mag patton at 405 points for 10 matches or so and I faced stronger opponents. I thought it was just happenstance. And then I tried a 9/1 Mag Patton, which should be 365 points, and voila, I was matched against all premium mediums and heavies every match, for around 10 matches, not during power hour. 8/8 Rhinos were pretty standard, and one time there was even a 8/12 Leo. When I benched the 9/1 Mag Patton and I get lvl 20 opponents with 4/6 Vityaz and the like again. I know there is supposed to be a dispersion of hangar scores between players matched so my 9/1 Patton is prolly not the same score as the 8/12 Leo, even after accounting for winrate (his wasn't low anyway). But I think I have enough samples and see a large enough difference to conclude that the 9/1 Mag Patton is rated higher by the MM than my other bots. If the current MM is still score-based now and only parameters are tweaked, I would guess the score increase for 1 bot level is the same as 1 weapon level, rather than 2 bot levels for 1 weapon level. Next week I planned to do some testing myself. Grinding does get boring lol. From all of the MM disparity, it is my hope that they at least equalized the base scores of bot/weapon levels, as previously, weapon levels were almost double the bot levels, and if so, my next hope is that they're using the higher value between the two for MM. Going to be upgrading some destriers and cossacks....again lol Experiment will be as follows @10 games each: 1/1 bots/weaps 1/7 bots/weaps Then going to record the shifts in opposition on the way to 7/7. Not going to kill myself, so just doing it with lights. I usually club with 1/7 Destrier/cossack/shutze, lately Ive been running into more and more 6/5 heavies, which by the old info, shouldnt happen. If there is no change from 1/7 to 7/7, them MM is using the higher level instead of both. Hmm, if 1/7 give you the same opponents as 7/7, then we need an explanation other than MM using the highest level among all bots and weapon average on each bot. Cos if it was a simple maximum of weapon level and bot level, my Patton9 wasnt higher than the Magnum9 I use on the Gepard2. And yet having the 9/1 Patton made a big difference. Is it possible to see hangar scores now, like what you did when you created the tier guide ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 2:18:10 GMT -5
Unfortunately Pix removed the Test server tooltip we at the wiki used to make the scale, new information has been anecdotal since then.
Even if they changed how individual bot scores are calculated, it is assumed mediums, lights, and heavies have different base scores. IF they decided to use the higher score between weapon/bot levels for MM, a level 9 rated Medium would still score higher than a level 10 rated light bot. Previously there was a 145 point difference between lights <mediums <heavies in base rating. If they increased the bot level base rating to equal the weapon avg level rating, made the increase in bot level an equivalent bump to weapon levels, and had MM use the higher of the two integers, the difference in level rating between weight classes would be 2-6 levels(MM search accounted for). Since your 9/1 patton was running into 8/8 Rhinos, it's a fair hypothesis.
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typewriter
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Post by typewriter on Dec 5, 2016 3:19:23 GMT -5
That'd make sense.
Assuming we are on the right path (that they didn't do a major formula change like counting the number of slots or using the average instead of maximum of all bots), there are a few questions we need answered:
1. Is it, like you said, the higher of a bot's level and its weapon level, or the sum of them?
2. If the 145 point difference between weight class is unchanged, and if now the weapon bump = bot bump, did they reduce the weapon bump or increase the bot bump? If the former is true, 1 weight class difference = 7.25 bot level difference; if the latter, then 1 weight class difference = 3.625 bot level difference.
3. Is there really a discount for heavies now? Or could it be a reduction in the weight class difference between heavies and mediums? And in either case, does that apply to Lancelot and the WSP heavies (before the 20% penalty is applied)?
If I were to decide on the parameters, I'd use the sum of bot level and weapon average level, at a 1:1 weighting. Add 4 levels for a medium and 8 for a heavy. Apply the 20% penalty only to the bot itself, or change it to a fixed 2 levels penalty. And Gepards just can't properly fit into this no matter what due to the crazy stats at level 1 and super flat upgrade curve. Maybe Gepards should just be considered level 9 regardless of the actual level.
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Pbartender
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Post by Pbartender on Dec 9, 2016 14:56:15 GMT -5
Scale Legend : A:b:c:d A: Scale placement B: Bot weight class ( L= light etc) C: possible level combinations that equal score. bot/weapon (bot>weapon excluded aside heavies), Numbers depict weapon level averages, for deviations from even levels, multiply the weapon level by the bot's hard points, any weapon total equalling the total equals that average. (Ex: lv 6 weapon avg = weapon total of 18 on 3 slot bots, 24 on 4 slot bots etc) D: Hangar score Before BR SCALE 1:L:1/1: 65 2:L:1/2: 105 3:L:2/2: 125 ...( edited for brevity)... Understanding that the data listed may very likely be out-of-date, I did notice something that may shed a little light on the scaling system... Ignoring multipliers from Win Rate and Premium Robots and such, that entire chart of numbers can be distilled down to the following formula: Each Robot's Hanger Score = 5 + (Robot's Class x 145) + (Robot's Level x 20) + (Robot's Average Weapon Level x 40)Where the Robot's Class is defined as Light = 0, Medium = 1, Heavy =2. Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 15:19:47 GMT -5
Scale Legend : A:b:c:d A: Scale placement B: Bot weight class ( L= light etc) C: possible level combinations that equal score. bot/weapon (bot>weapon excluded aside heavies), Numbers depict weapon level averages, for deviations from even levels, multiply the weapon level by the bot's hard points, any weapon total equalling the total equals that average. (Ex: lv 6 weapon avg = weapon total of 18 on 3 slot bots, 24 on 4 slot bots etc) D: Hangar score Before BR SCALE 1:L:1/1: 65 2:L:1/2: 105 3:L:2/2: 125 ...( edited for brevity)... Understanding that the data listed may very likely be out-of-date, I did notice something that may shed a little light on the scaling system... Ignoring multipliers from Win Rate and Premium Robots and such, that entire chart of numbers can be distilled down to the following formula: Each Robot's Hanger Score = 5 + (Robot's Class x 145) + (Robot's Level x 20) + (Robot's Average Weapon Level x 40)Where the Robot's Class is defined as Light = 0, Medium = 1, Heavy =2. Cheers. Level 1/1 lights were calculated at 70. Or some such arbitrary number. another month or so left before Pix actually adds MM information to the UI.
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Post by thalandar on Dec 10, 2016 2:30:09 GMT -5
What is the earliest worthwhile tier /setup for fury?
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Post by Strayed on Dec 10, 2016 2:31:40 GMT -5
High silver, as with any other heavy. Best fury setup is triple trident.
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Post by thalandar on Dec 12, 2016 4:22:18 GMT -5
Would u do it in high silver strayed or go bit further and be trash gold? Trying to figure out when to stop upgrading weaps in background and was not sure to skip high silver and go for trash gold or whatnot.. With rino/fury/Galahad etc as iv some weaps allready lvl 9 from my bronze farm bots I can use.. Or I buy new ones to stop at 8 and keep separate sets (my pins etc etc are all sitting around 8 atm so it's the mags and aphids etc that are higher.
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Dec 12, 2016 4:23:53 GMT -5
I like how this whole 'trash gold' thing has been adopted by the community
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karljackson
Destrier
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Post by karljackson on Dec 12, 2016 7:31:36 GMT -5
Also, there is ample evidence that average damage has been factored in. Weapon lvl cutoffs for tiers as well. Lvl 11 weapons carry heavy penalty on any lvl bot.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Dec 14, 2016 18:17:59 GMT -5
Place holder comment. Working on spread sheet to make finding the hangar score easier in mixed hangars.
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Dec 14, 2016 18:37:24 GMT -5
Also, there is ample evidence that average damage has been factored in. Weapon lvl cutoffs for tiers as well. Lvl 11 weapons carry heavy penalty on any lvl bot. not sure about average damage, as low silver clobbers can rack 500k average quite easily. weapon cutoffs for sure.
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Post by Loop_Stratos on Dec 15, 2016 9:53:34 GMT -5
Does 20% au/wsp bot penalty apply for all tiers or only tiers below hs?
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pj
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Favorite robot: Aphid Patton
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Post by pj on Dec 15, 2016 10:44:27 GMT -5
Would having the 4th or 5th slot unlocked also factor in?
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Scorpio Snow
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Favorite robot: Any bots counter Gepard at Silver
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Post by Scorpio Snow on Dec 15, 2016 11:06:06 GMT -5
Most of our tester have 5 slots, at least 4.. That would be pretty hard to test..
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Post by SGT D00M! on Dec 15, 2016 11:08:12 GMT -5
No, highest bot only.
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Post by CΛΜΡΞΓ™ on Dec 15, 2016 13:46:59 GMT -5
Not 100% on whether MM penalty applies in high silver, it definitely doesn't in LOW gold though.
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Post by SGT D00M! on Dec 15, 2016 14:42:05 GMT -5
Not 100% on whether MM penalty applies in high silver, it definitely doesn't in LOW gold though. Really? Hmmmm.
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karljackson
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Post by karljackson on Dec 17, 2016 9:18:50 GMT -5
When my silver hanger averaged over 400k damage, I switched to low gold. About the same matches. Seems like average damage is weighted more heavily in silver tier. Also, lvl 11 weapons still carry penalties in low Gold. Frankly, I haven't seen any reason to play silver over low gold since the Halloween update. I haven't run a single gep since. Admittedly, I only ran geps to complete with all the clubbers. Much harder to get quality, consistent damage in silver these days. The MM changes did seem to take a toll on clubbers. The flip side is that I can't seem to field a worth while silver hanger anymore. My silver test hanger Competition
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Post by SGT D00M! on Dec 17, 2016 13:21:46 GMT -5
*bump*
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Post by Loop_Stratos on Dec 22, 2016 3:20:23 GMT -5
I run 6/8 mediums with penalty, having my Gareth 6/12 is fine right?
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Post by Spoopy Scary Haunter on Dec 22, 2016 3:28:55 GMT -5
I thought I'd bring this over from the original forum to make it easier to find for the newcomers. Credit to Tintehfiend for all his hard work. MM Scale/Microtier Guide TintehFiend No more oversimplifying. The following is the raw scale. --Find the hangar power of your strongest bot, your average opponents will be within +- 150 of your score. -- +-10% deviation from a 50% win rate correlates to +- 10% variation of hangar score. -- WSP bots increase hangar score by 20% -- MM will continue to reach further up and down the scale until a room is made. -- Low population of the MM forces unfavorable matchups. The fewer players queued, the greater the chance of mismatching. MM seems crazy during power hour because it is churning out matches quickly, and bundling leftover players in the queue. -- keep in mind that there is a 145 point difference between lights and mediums, and a 145 point difference between mediums and heavies. 140 points is equal to: 3 bot levels & 2 weapon levels, 1 bot level & 3 weapon levels, and 5 bot levels & 1 weapon level. As long as your lighter bots are one of these combinations above the next weight class, your hangar is considered even (all within 5-10 points of one another) How To: -Find the level of your strongest, heaviest active bot. -Note Hangar score - +-150 points should be your "normal" range of opponents (your microtier) Scale Legend : A:b:c:d A: Scale placement B: Bot weight class ( L= light etc) C: possible level combinations that equal score. bot/weapon (bot>weapon excluded aside heavies), Numbers depict weapon level averages, for deviations from even levels, multiply the weapon level by the bot's hard points, any weapon total equalling the total equals that average. (Ex: lv 6 weapon avg = weapon total of 18 on 3 slot bots, 24 on 4 slot bots etc) D: Hangar score Before BR SCALE 1:L:1/1: 65 2:L:1/2: 105 3:L:2/2: 125 4:L:1/3: 145 5:L:2/3: 165 6:L:1/4, 3/3: 185 7:L:2/4: 205 8:M:1/1: 210 9:L:1/5, 3/4: 225 10:L:2/5, 4/4: 245 11:M:1/2: 250 12:L:1/6, 3/5: 265 13:M:2/2: 270 14:L:2/6, 4/5: 285 15:M:1/3: 290 16:L:1/7, 3/6, 5/5 :305 17:M:2/3: 310 18:L:2/7, 4/6: 325 19:M:1/4, 3/3: 330 20:L:1/8, 3/7, 5/6: 345 21:M:2/4: 350 22:H:1/1: 355 23:L:2/8, 4/7, 6/6: 365 24:M:1/5, 3/4: 370 25:L:1/9, 3/8, 5/7: 385 26:M:2/5, 4/4: 390 27:H:1/2:395 28:L:2/9, 4/8, 6/7: 405 29:M:1/6, 3/5: 410 30:H:2/2: 415 31:L:1/10, 3/9, 5/8, 7/7: 425 32:M:2/6, 4/5: 430 33:H:1/3: 435 34:L:2/10, 4/9, 6/8: 445 35:M:1/7, 3/6, 5/5: 450 36:H:2/3, 6/1: 455 37:L:1/11, 3/10, 5/9, 7/8: 465 38:M:2/7, 4/6: 470 39:H:1/4, 3/3:475 40:L:2/11, 4/10, 6/9, 8/8: 485 41:M:1/8, 3/7, 5/6: 490 42:H:2/4, 6/2: 495 43:L:1/12, 3/11, 5/10, 7/9: 505 44:M:2/8, 4/7, 6/6: 510 45:H:1/5, 3/4: 515 46:L:2/12, 4/11, 6/10, 8/9: 525 47:M:1/9, 3/8, 5/7: 530 48:H:2/5, 4/4, 6/3: 535 49:L:3/12, 5/11, 7/10, 9/9: 545 50:M:2/9, 4/8, 6/7: 550 51:H:1/6, 3/5: 555 52:L:4/12, 6/11, 8/10: 565 53:M:1/10, 3/9, 5/8, 7/7: 570 54:H:2/6, 4/5, 6/4: 575 55:L:5/12, 7/11, 9/10: 585 56:M:2/10, 4/9, 6/8: 590 57:H:1/7, 3/6, 5/5: 595 58:L:6/12, 8/11, 10/10: 605 59:M:1/11, 3/10, 5/9, 7/8: 610 60:H:2/7, 4/6, 6/5:615 61:L:7/12, 9/11: 625 62:M:2/11, 4/10, 6/9, 8/8: 630 63:H:1/8, 3/7, 5/6: 635 64:L:8/12, 10/11: 645 65:M:1/12, 3/11, 5/10, 7/9: 650 66:H:2/8, 4/7, 6/6: 655 67:L:9/12, 11/11: 665 68:M:2/12, 4/11, 6/10, 8/9: 670 69:H:1/9, 3/8, 5/7: 675 70:L:10/12: 685 71:M:3/12, 5/11, 7/10, 9/9: 690 72:H:2/9, 4/8, 6/7: 695 73:L:11/12: 705 74:M:4/12, 6/11, 8/10: 710 75:H:1/10, 3/9, 5/8, 7/7: 715 76:L:12/12 : 725 77:M:5/12, 7/11, 9/10: 730 78:H:2/10, 4/9, 6/8: 735 79:M:6/12, 8/11, 10/10: 750 80:H:1/11, 3/10, 5/9, 7/8: 755 81:M:7/12, 9/11: 770 82:H:2/11, 4/10, 6/9, 8/8: 775 83:M:8/12, 10/11: 790 84:H:1/12, 3/11, 5/10, 7/9: 795 85:M:9/12, 11/11: 810 86:H:2/12, 4/11, 6/10, 8/9: 815 87:M:10/12: 830 88:H:3/12, 5/11, 7/10, 9/9: 835 89:M:11/12: 850 90:H:4/12, 6/11, 8/10: 855 91:M:12/12: 870 92:H:5/12, 7/11, 9/10: 875 93:H:6/12, 8/11, 10/10: 895 94:H:7/12, 9/11: 915 95:H:8/12, 10/11: 935 96:H:9/12, 11/11: 955 97:H:10/12: 975 98:H:11/12: 995 99:H:12/12 1015 Edited by TintehFiend 04:37, September 21, 2016 The maths, they hurtses mah brain
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Post by sochilli (Saltesers) on Dec 22, 2016 3:41:03 GMT -5
My highest: L 2/8 = 365 What I see in matches: H 6/2-5 = 495-615
「whiskey tango foxtrot」?!
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Post by Loop_Stratos on Dec 22, 2016 3:58:25 GMT -5
^^you didn't have to quote the entire thing to say one line, you know.
^it is old
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Post by Spoopy Scary Haunter on Dec 22, 2016 4:13:07 GMT -5
^^you didn't have to quote the entire thing to say one line, you know. ^it is old As if I'm going to skip a chance to troll.
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Post by Loop_Stratos on Dec 22, 2016 10:29:53 GMT -5
I run 6/8 mediums with penalty, having my Gareth 6/12 is fine right? Answers ftw?
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Post by ł⸰§ĦȺĐ◎ŴƧŦḀɌ on Dec 22, 2016 10:56:02 GMT -5
Gareth L6/12 58:L:6/12, 8/11, 10/10: 605
M6/8 56:M:2/10, 4/9, 6/8: 590
Gareth is +15 relative HS. A slight bump up, likely not enough to be noticeable, but there.
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