|
|
Post by bravex on Sept 5, 2018 18:01:01 GMT -5
I was going to grind for a couple of Shredders since I'm already close to getting one but on paper at least the Halo seems like a stronger weapon.
Has anyone here tried both? Is there an advantage to Shredder?
Besides "energy shotguns" being more powerful what are differences between them and the earlier weapons?
|
|
|
|
Post by firewoman on Sept 5, 2018 18:20:32 GMT -5
I haven't used either, but I think it depends on what bot you're using, imo. I'm guessing that under 200 range, the Halo is better. Above 200 range, and the Shredder is better.
Here's what I'm thinking...
Patton - Shredder
Jesse - Shredder (Halo might work okay too, considering the Jesse's speed)
Pursuer - Halo
Gepard - Shredder
Leo - Shredder
Mender - Either
Mercury - Either
Natasha - Halo (with Glory), maybe
Destrier - Shredder
Galahad - Either, but probably Halo/Corona
Griffin - Either
Vityaz - Halo (with Glory), probably?
Strider - Halo w/ Glory
Stalker - Either, probably Halo
Raven - Either, but Halo/Corona would probably be best
Rhino - Either
Hellburner - Halo
Hover - Shredder
Golem - Probably Halo/Corona/Glory
Gareth - Halo/Corona
|
|
|
|
Post by TooSchoolForCool on Sept 6, 2018 14:24:54 GMT -5
I haven't used either, but I think it depends on what bot you're using, imo. I'm guessing that under 200 range, the Halo is better. Above 200 range, and the Shredder is better. Here's what I'm thinking... Patton - Shredder Jesse - Shredder (Halo might work okay too, considering the Jesse's speed) Pursuer - Halo Gepard - Shredder Leo - Shredder Mender - Either Mercury - Either Natasha - Halo (with Glory), maybe Destrier - Shredder Galahad - Either, but probably Halo/Corona Griffin - Either Vityaz - Halo (with Glory), probably? Strider - Halo w/ Glory Stalker - Either, probably Halo Raven - Either, but Halo/Corona would probably be best Rhino - Either Hellburner - Halo Hover - Shredder Golem - Probably Halo/Corona/Glory Gareth - Halo/Corona The shredder can’t hit anything out at the 300-500m range. It’s also best for up close damage. |
|
|
|
Post by ystava on Sept 7, 2018 8:14:11 GMT -5
I was going to grind for a couple of Shredders since I'm already close to getting one but on paper at least the Halo seems like a stronger weapon. Has anyone here tried both? Is there an advantage to Shredder? Besides "energy shotguns" being more powerful what are differences between them and the earlier weapons? I have a spreadsheet I use for my clan. I calculate the damage for lvl 12 weapons different distances and firing situations. Here's the breakdown for the Gust, Shredder, and Halo at a few ranges. The "effectiveness" score is based on Pixionic's data or my own experience with weapons and estimates the hit rate to adjust the raw damage data. The damage in this table is adjusted from raw by that percentage. I assumed the same shotgun hit rate as the gust since that's not available data. This table suggests the weapons are a decent balancing act, and it comes down to what you want in terms of range, damage, rooting chances, and how long you can stand to be exposed to your target. If it were me I would do some sort of gust/shredder or punisher/shredder combo and avoid the light and medium energy shotguns. The heavy energy shotgun is another story. | Weapon | Effectiveness | DPS 45 seconds | CRAP! 1 sec | Dump 4 sec | Cover 8 sec | Support 16 sec | | Gust 100m | 100% | 5989 | 11000 | 44000 | 66000 | 110000 | | Gust 400m | 20% | 1198 | 2200 | 8800 | 13200 | 22000 | | Shredder | 80% | 4488 | 7480 | 29920 | 37400 | 74800 | | Halo 100m | 100% | 3178 | 11000 | 27500 | 38500 | 60500 | | Halo 400m | 20% | 636 | 2200 | 5500 | 7700 | 12100 | | Punisher 200m | 100% | 5490 | 5640 | 25380 | 59220 | 123516 | | Punisher 400m | 40% | 2196 | 2256 | 10152 | 23688 | 49406 |
|
|
|
|
Post by Koalabear on Sept 7, 2018 8:38:00 GMT -5
ystava, I'm trying to understand the Shredder row. You have it at 80% effectiveness. What range is that?
|
|
|
|
Post by ystava on Sept 7, 2018 8:42:19 GMT -5
ystava , I'm trying to understand the Shredder row. You have it at 80% effectiveness. What range is that? I don't have good data on how range affects shredder so the 80% is generic... it may be like the punisher, but I don't have a hard answer on that. The table still reveals general patterns. Based on this... even if you tweaked it a little... with the lights, if I'm going to root... I'm going to equip a shredder and pair it with something that does real damage... I think the halo makes too many compromises. In close I'd rather do gust damage and try to score my root with a shredder. If rooting was something I was after. |
|
|
|
Post by FlashAhAhh on Sept 7, 2018 8:55:30 GMT -5
ystava , I'm trying to understand the Shredder row. You have it at 80% effectiveness. What range is that? I don't have good data on how range affects shredder so the 80% is generic... it may be like the punisher, but I don't have a hard answer on that. The table still reveals general patterns. Based on this... even if you tweaked it a little... with the lights, if I'm going to root... I'm going to equip a shredder and pair it with something that does real damage... I think the halo makes too many compromises. In close I'd rather do gust damage and try to score my root with a shredder. If rooting was something I was after. It is like a punisher, damage and root% decrease over distance... substanially. If anyone wants to test I have 3 shredders at 7/7/8 ready to go. I'm running 3 shredders for a support build.. just for something different. |
|
|
|
Post by ystava on Sept 7, 2018 9:02:03 GMT -5
I don't have good data on how range affects shredder so the 80% is generic... it may be like the punisher, but I don't have a hard answer on that. The table still reveals general patterns. Based on this... even if you tweaked it a little... with the lights, if I'm going to root... I'm going to equip a shredder and pair it with something that does real damage... I think the halo makes too many compromises. In close I'd rather do gust damage and try to score my root with a shredder. If rooting was something I was after. It is like a punisher, damage and root% decrease over distance... substanially. If anyone wants to test I have 3 shredders at 7/7/8 ready to go. I'm running 3 shredders for a support build.. just for something different. Thanks. Root % is consistent. So you can adjust the effectiveness number however you want. I still think as a weapon I'd take a shredder over a Halo and pair it with a punisher or gust and take the hit on the root percentage in favor of maintaining damage. --------- With regards to rooting... more root weapons means more root chance. The equation to find out how many you want or whether it's worth it to you is 1-(1-p)^n Where p is the probability of root ... for level 12 it's 0.36 and n is the number of root weapons you're shooting. So a Spectre shooting 4 lvl12 Pulsars has a chance of root of 83% instead of the mere 36% it would have if it were just shooting one pulsar. And you can also multiply this by the same effectiveness score you choose to get the chance of a root. So if you have a specter Pulsar and assume effectiveness the same as punisher the chance of root at 400m would be 83*0.4...... so 33.2% chance at 400m.... |
|
|
|
Post by FlashAhAhh on Sept 7, 2018 9:56:35 GMT -5
It is like a punisher, damage and root% decrease over distance... substanially. If anyone wants to test I have 3 shredders at 7/7/8 ready to go. I'm running 3 shredders for a support build.. just for something different. Thanks. Root % is consistent. So you can adjust the effectiveness number however you want. I still think as a weapon I'd take a shredder over a Halo and pair it with a punisher or gust and take the hit on the root percentage in favor of maintaining damage. --------- With regards to rooting... more root weapons means more root chance. The equation to find out how many you want or whether it's worth it to you is 1-(1-p)^n Where p is the probability of root ... for level 12 it's 0.36 and n is the number of root weapons you're shooting. So a Spectre shooting 4 lvl12 Pulsars has a chance of root of 83% instead of the mere 36% it would have if it were just shooting one pulsar. And you can also multiply this by the same effectiveness score you choose to get the chance of a root. So if you have a specter Pulsar and assume effectiveness the same as punisher the chance of root at 400m would be 83*0.4...... so 33.2% chance at 400m.... Yes root % is constant per bullett... so is damage for that matter. But spread means less bullets hit at distance hence my statement: damage and root% decrease with distance. |
|
|
|
Post by ystava on Sept 7, 2018 10:09:03 GMT -5
Thanks. Root % is consistent. So you can adjust the effectiveness number however you want. I still think as a weapon I'd take a shredder over a Halo and pair it with a punisher or gust and take the hit on the root percentage in favor of maintaining damage. --------- With regards to rooting... more root weapons means more root chance. The equation to find out how many you want or whether it's worth it to you is 1-(1-p)^n Where p is the probability of root ... for level 12 it's 0.36 and n is the number of root weapons you're shooting. So a Spectre shooting 4 lvl12 Pulsars has a chance of root of 83% instead of the mere 36% it would have if it were just shooting one pulsar. And you can also multiply this by the same effectiveness score you choose to get the chance of a root. So if you have a specter Pulsar and assume effectiveness the same as punisher the chance of root at 400m would be 83*0.4...... so 33.2% chance at 400m.... Yes root % is constant per bullett... so is damage for that matter. But spread means less bullets hit at distance hence my statement: damage and root% decrease with distance. I'm not disagreeing with you. My analysis reflects my agreement and my math tries to account for that agreement with hard data or reasonable assumptions. |
|
|
|
Post by FlashAhAhh on Sept 7, 2018 10:18:19 GMT -5
Yes root % is constant per bullett... so is damage for that matter. But spread means less bullets hit at distance hence my statement: damage and root% decrease with distance. I'm not disagreeing with you. My analysis reflects my agreement and my math tries to account for that agreement with hard data or reasonable assumptions. I'd rather test and get hard figures than assumptions |
|
|
|
Post by ystava on Sept 7, 2018 10:38:22 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing with you. My analysis reflects my agreement and my math tries to account for that agreement with hard data or reasonable assumptions. I'd rather test and get hard figures than assumptions Again, we don't disagree... and fortunately my method is transparent enough that you can apply whatever effectiveness score you care to. I tend to doubt that it would change my conclusions about these weapons very much. I'd rather pair a shredder with a high damage weapon, than go with a halo. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2018 13:37:25 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing with you. My analysis reflects my agreement and my math tries to account for that agreement with hard data or reasonable assumptions. I'd rather test and get hard figures than assumptions The spread between a Pulsar and a Shredder is considerably different. I would assume the same for the other weapons but I haven't measured those. The graphs/tables below show the % chance a shot will hit either an Inquisitor (big hit box) or a Spectre (smaller hit box) as a function of distance:   I tested this with 5 clips from either a level 4 Pulsar (120 shots total) or a level 4 Shredder (200 rounds). Both bots were facing directly at one another for the test. I used the Wiki for determining the theoretical damage from each weapon and ratioed the measured damage to that. Interestingly, the Pulsar shows a % chance to hit at close ranges that is above 100%. I've confirmed the numbers to be sure that I didn't mess something up. That suggests to me that the damage numbers being reported on the Wiki are really a bit low compared to the actual numbers in the game. Based upon the above, I really don't see the Shredder as being something to bother with. I think up close and far away the Gust will be better although I probably need to do a test to confirm that. The Pulsar seems to have a much narrower spread and it is something I am looking at leveling up. I'll test a Gust later today and make another post. Edit: The Pulsar was mounted on the top of a Spectre while the Shredder was mounted on the top of a Pursuer. |
|
|
|
Post by ystava on Sept 7, 2018 14:04:29 GMT -5
I'd rather test and get hard figures than assumptions The spread between a Pulsar and a Shredder is considerably different. I would assume the same for the other weapons but I haven't measured those. The graphs/tables below show the % chance a shot will hit either an Inquisitor (big hit box) or a Spectre (smaller hit box) as a function of distance: I tested this with 5 clips from either a level 4 Pulsar (120 shots total) or a level 4 Shredder (200 rounds). Both bots were facing directly at one another for the test. I used the Wiki for determining the theoretical damage from each weapon and ratioed the measured damage to that. Interestingly, the Pulsar shows a % chance to hit at close ranges that is above 100%. I've confirmed the numbers to be sure that I didn't mess something up. That suggests to me that the damage numbers being reported on the Wiki are really a bit low compared to the actual numbers in the game. Based upon the above, I really don't see the Shredder as being something to bother with. I think up close and far away the Gust will be better although I probably need to do a test to confirm that. The Pulsar seems to have a much narrower spread and it is something I am looking at leveling up. I'll test a Gust later today and make another post. Edit: The Pulsar was mounted on the top of a Spectre while the Shredder was mounted on the top of a Pursuer. Thanks I haven't dug as deep as you have. My tables are meant only as a stepping off point with an understanding that there are many factors in play and coming up with the perfect solution is moot. The other guy is moving and seeking cover supposedly... or they have friends. It's too dynamic. I think the analysis is effective enough to decide what pairings to make... and if you want to tweak my effectiveness score... go ahead... it's simple math. think shredder > halo... but I personally am going to take gust or punisher over those for damage. The only reason to mount shredder or halo is to acquire root... and if given a choice between those two I'd take a shredder paired with something that does better damage. But that's a big if since I really have low interest in fielding light weapons. I'm not completely rigid on it, but as long as I only have 1 hangar, I'm sticking with bots that only have medium and heavy slots. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Karma:
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2018 16:30:30 GMT -5
The spread between a Pulsar and a Shredder is considerably different. I would assume the same for the other weapons but I haven't measured those. The graphs/tables below show the % chance a shot will hit either an Inquisitor (big hit box) or a Spectre (smaller hit box) as a function of distance: Thanks I haven't dug as deep as you have. My tables are meant only as a stepping off point with an understanding that there are many factors in play and coming up with the perfect solution is moot. The other guy is moving and seeking cover supposedly... or they have friends. It's too dynamic. I think the analysis is effective enough to decide what pairings to make... and if you want to tweak my effectiveness score... go ahead... it's simple math. think shredder > halo... but I personally am going to take gust or punisher over those for damage. The only reason to mount shredder or halo is to acquire root... and if given a choice between those two I'd take a shredder paired with something that does better damage. But that's a big if since I really have low interest in fielding light weapons. I'm not completely rigid on it, but as long as I only have 1 hangar, I'm sticking with bots that only have medium and heavy slots. I take back what I said about Shredders; they aren't as bad as I thought when I went through the exercise. Here is what I came up with for a chance to hit between a Shredder and Gust on a Spectre:  Looking at firing rates, reload times, damage done per hit, and chance of hitting I get that the damage difference between the two weapons isn't really bad unless you're very close or its an extended fight. Here is the average cumulative damage curves at 498 meters. The second graph shows the difference in cumulative damage (positive numbers means the Gust has put out more damage to the Spectre than the Shredder)   Here's the same for 200 meters:   Here it is at 100 meters:   You don't really give up that much in the way of damage by using the Shredder so long as the target is at >200 meters or the fight is over in 4 seconds or less. Wouldn't want to run three on a Pursuer as the damage loss would be tripled from what is shown above but one Shredder and two Gusts on a Pursuer might be ok. If anyone has access to a Halo and wants to collect some data for a similar analysis, please PM me. |
|
|
|
Post by FlashAhAhh on Sept 7, 2018 21:52:22 GMT -5
I'd rather test and get hard figures than assumptions The spread between a Pulsar and a Shredder is considerably different. I would assume the same for the other weapons but I haven't measured those. The graphs/tables below show the % chance a shot will hit either an Inquisitor (big hit box) or a Spectre (smaller hit box) as a function of distance: I tested this with 5 clips from either a level 4 Pulsar (120 shots total) or a level 4 Shredder (200 rounds). Both bots were facing directly at one another for the test. I used the Wiki for determining the theoretical damage from each weapon and ratioed the measured damage to that. Interestingly, the Pulsar shows a % chance to hit at close ranges that is above 100%. I've confirmed the numbers to be sure that I didn't mess something up. That suggests to me that the damage numbers being reported on the Wiki are really a bit low compared to the actual numbers in the game. Based upon the above, I really don't see the Shredder as being something to bother with. I think up close and far away the Gust will be better although I probably need to do a test to confirm that. The Pulsar seems to have a much narrower spread and it is something I am looking at leveling up. I'll test a Gust later today and make another post. Edit: The Pulsar was mounted on the top of a Spectre while the Shredder was mounted on the top of a Pursuer. Now THAT's data. Quality work mate!!! Thanks so much!!! |
|
