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Post by T34 on Jun 27, 2018 18:09:48 GMT -5
I have no doubt that skill is an important element of the game. However, there are many aspects of the game that undoubtedly diminish the value and usefulness of skill.
These would include Levelling, Restricted access to new equipment, Buffs, Tanking, Multi hangers, Multi modes, Equipment buffs/nerfs and the effect of using RM. And don't forget about the MM-er. It pulls players from up to 3 leagues by default, it does beat downs and how it approaches squad allocation. So what is your “subjective” opinion? What proportion of success/failure is attributed to skill?
Please elaborate on your answer if you like.
Perception is king in this arena.
Last night was brutal for me. I was in full blown beat down mode. Just had to hang it up for the evening... Similar for me too. 3 Es squadded up with 1 Champions League and 2 M3s and our squad kept on pulling full champ squads that were mostly maxed and a lot of them had multi hangers. Mostly losses but on occasions we managed to pull off a win (luck was involved as well as favourable game mode and favourable map). In that situation the MM-er eradicated skill almost completely.
The MM-er has to be towards the top of the list when it comes to dictating what level of skill the game can encompass. It does a 5 league mix by default in solo play. So Es can see Champs as well as recruits can see high silvers. Often it allocates sort of evenly from the different leagues but at the end of the day if you are an E and get mixed with champs you will probably be at the bottom of the pile. conversely if you are an E and pull golds and diamonds (as in now the E player is the top predator) than the E player ends up on the top of the pile most of the time. This goes all the way through the leagues and probably affects 90% of the players. Under such circumstance the a player's destiny is pre ordained. If a player is super skilful than he climbs until he reaches the equilibrium again and back into preordained mode.
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Post by T34 on Jun 27, 2018 18:40:45 GMT -5
So which is better skill or gear? I'd say without skill you hit a wall at some point but let's make a comparison here Lets say you have a chimp and a human, the chimp is armed with a 12ga shotgun, the Human is armed with a medium power pellet gun. The human is probably more skilled but will have to shoot the chimp quite a few times to inflict death. The chimp on the other hand may not even know how to operate the shotgun but they likely only need to get it right once. Only on a level playing field will the skill finally be the deciding factor in fights, the middle and below there is room enough for the gear handicap to win more often then not. Did you see the boost stacking thread. I think even a chimp can win with a 220K HP spectre pumping out 576K damage from the boosted orkans.
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Post by windcaster on Jun 27, 2018 18:49:35 GMT -5
I seen it posted but did not look at it, doesn't matter.. Im in Diamond.. "IF" I continue to play the game I originally had plans to move up to expert in a few weeks once some upgrades are done (got a lot of new bots recently)
But now?.. huh.. now if I stick around and do anything it will be either stay in Diamond or move down to gold.. or who knows I hear there are lots of krill in bronze and silver.
I see no reason to chase the carrot up to master or champ.
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rynd33
Destrier
Posts: 12
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Post by rynd33 on Jun 27, 2018 19:21:49 GMT -5
Skill plays a role when it comes to learning maps, strategic positioning, corner and cover shooting, etc. Another type of skill, one that thankfully is in short supply among many whales, is situational discipline. When I first started playing this game it was all too easy to believe that if I could just get off that one last shot I could get the kill. This tunnel vision often left my mech a smoking wreck, or so critically damaged as to be useless on the field. Even after many months I can still fall victim to this, particularly in Beacon Rush with my Rog (one more second and that beacon is MINE!), but as I have gotten better about this I've seen increasingly better results. What I've noticed with many whales is they are easily led into ambushes because of a lack of awareness/discipline and overconfidence in their expensive equipment. Your Mk2/12 Spectre isn't so scary when I've kited you to 3 other blue mechs and we all turn on you at once. Skill for f2p players seems to be more about overcoming handicaps, as someone pointed out above, but that is a skill in itself.
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cross
Destrier
Posts: 82
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Platform: Android
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Post by cross on Jun 27, 2018 19:35:15 GMT -5
Don't really know how to answer. I'm confused by the phrasing of your question.
What I do know, is that I have managed to stay in low Champions League for a few months with lvl 9 gear (in average). Granted that I face Mk2 12 regularly, skill makes up for around 40% - 50% of power difference. (For me that is)
This is an inspiration! Could you kindly share your hanger setup? Cheers
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Post by T34 on Jun 27, 2018 20:10:46 GMT -5
Skill plays a role when it comes to learning maps, strategic positioning, corner and cover shooting, etc. Another type of skill, one that thankfully is in short supply among many whales, is situational discipline. When I first started playing this game it was all too easy to believe that if I could just get off that one last shot I could get the kill. This tunnel vision often left my mech a smoking wreck, or so critically damaged as to be useless on the field. Even after many months I can still fall victim to this, particularly in Beacon Rush with my Rog (one more second and that beacon is MINE!), but as I have gotten better about this I've seen increasingly better results. What I've noticed with many whales is they are easily led into ambushes because of a lack of awareness/discipline and overconfidence in their expensive equipment. Your Mk2/12 Spectre isn't so scary when I've kited you to 3 other blue mechs and we all turn on you at once. Skill for f2p players seems to be more about overcoming handicaps, as someone pointed out above, but that is a skill in itself. A 240HP spectre putting out 600 HP damage is never cornered. Thats like a 50kg guy cornering an elephant using a whip and a chair in a glass house.
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Post by kamikazejohnson on Jun 27, 2018 20:31:42 GMT -5
My 9-year-old son used Hangar X against my personal 9/9 hangar. I lost 2 Bots. Skill matters.
I would rate myself around the 60-70 percentile among regular players. I frequently hold my own against hangars averaging 2-3 levels higher than mine. And some matches I place dead last, and a player with level 6-8 gear has 3 times my damage.
Skill can overcome a tremendous hangar disadvantage. And the great thing about skill vs gear is that each time I level an item, the maximum possible gear advantage a player can have over me decreases (until Pix releases a series of more powerful equipment). A skill disparity has no such limit.
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Post by kchan4487 on Jun 27, 2018 20:44:08 GMT -5
If skill, tactics, awareness and the like were factors in this game, I'd have a chance defeating a Spectre player with my Cossack. But I don't. War Robots is 100% about equipment and power level, not about skill level. As some of you might know, I moved over to PUBG and there, one well-aimed shot using a crappy pistol will drop the enemy no matter what items he has. There is no way I can pull of the same in War Robots. This is like expecting skill to compensate for everything. If you put an F1 driver in a go cart, there is no way in hell is he is going to win against a regular driver in a Lambo in a quarter mile race. But if you put them both in the same car, no way in hell is the regular driver going to pull off sharp corners like an F1 driver. PUBG comparison is wrong because guns and humans are guns and humans. If War Robots are go carts vs Lambos, PUBG is Evos vs Evos. Everybody has relatively equal bases, what differs is the modifications. Some may have better guns or whatnot. In War Robots terms, it's like a PDB vs DB.
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Post by T34 on Jun 27, 2018 21:04:28 GMT -5
One thing that sort of bugs me is who put down 100% and the rational behind that choice. That reasoning I would LOVE to hear.
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Post by anjian on Jun 27, 2018 21:04:30 GMT -5
I don't think this game is driven by skill. It is driven by choices.
I have seen too many both skill and wallet driven players put the wrong choices in the battlefield. Just today, one team paid the price for it in the face of my Dragoon Fury.
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Post by masshole on Jun 27, 2018 23:23:13 GMT -5
In my brief time playing I have to say that skill is a big factor. In a 1v1 battle, a much more level'd/powerful robot is usually going to win unless the player is totally incompetent. Obviously a Cossack vs a Spectre is a bad match up and the spectre will come out victorious in most cases.
However, some of the game modes involve beacons(domination, beacon rush, KotH). Those games do take skill, situational awareness and forethought. Not only do you have to fight enemy bots but you have to move and steal beacons, time things perfectly, etc. If you are attacking a beacon in beacon rush, you dont kill the defending bot when you are still 300 yards out because he will just respawn with a fresh bot and kill you. No you get in as close as possible, maybe in the beacon, then kill him and hopefully steal it before he can come back. How many people do this? How many people do you see preemptively moving to the next beacon in KotH while his team mates hold the current beacon? Some do, and those are the teams that usually win.
At the same time the match making makes this impossible to be 100% true. Even if you are skilled, there is only so much you can do as an individual when you are paired with poor players. The times when you are sent out into a KotH match and all your teams wanna play is TDM. Thats so annoying. Me desperately springing from beacon to beacon only to get steamrolled by 3 of the reds while my teammates are on the other side of the map shooting.
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Post by hyderier on Jun 28, 2018 0:18:30 GMT -5
It's all MM. P2W really comes from MM creating battles where higher level, better gear is put against lower level, more easily acquirable gear.
They could fix P2W fixing MM. Then it would become Pay to Advance.
But there's no business in that, is there? I mean, no single game ever made much money by being fair and striving to make a game where skill is everything, did they?
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Post by sochilli (Saltesers) on Jun 28, 2018 0:56:30 GMT -5
hold up
last time i was here (a year and a half ago) skill was 0% necessary, this game was richest-human-wins.
firstly that implies that the game is improving
secondly i'm mad that 0% isn't an option in this poll
smh
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Post by inhumanus on Jun 28, 2018 1:02:59 GMT -5
Unfortunately, this game is very addictive for me.
In Master 3 now, 60% of my battles now involve at least 3 maxed Champion players. On a rare occasion, I am dropped on some poor mid/high Diamond level 9 or less pilots. The former relegates my maybe B level piloting to crowd control at range. The latter is a million point match where I start taking chances to see if I can lose my current robot.
Being solo, I know the MM will also try to rorce a losing streak as I approach 65% win; where I have watched enough live streams of high level clans that can maintain 90% win rates due to skill/gear/communication and no one else having anything better.
I am just speculating, but less than 20% of my matches are even gear, no drops on either side and game modes that seem to keep both sides engaged. I don't even care who wins these matches at times, the challenge is invigorating. So, with such a small % of my matches actually based on my skill vs theirs...I vote 20%
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Post by T34 on Jun 28, 2018 1:27:12 GMT -5
It's all MM. P2W really comes from MM creating battles where higher level, better gear is put against lower level, more easily acquirable gear. They could fix P2W fixing MM. Then it would become Pay to Advance. But there's no business in that, is there? I mean, no single game ever made much money by being fair and striving to make a game where skill is everything, did they? The MM-er is so critical. It is almost always the elephant sitting in the room. Indeed, it keeps the Cossacks and the spectres separated but when it mixes three leagues it squeezes out a lot of skill and does mix the Spectres with the griffins. It also preordains the win loss ratio (I am very sure of that based on evidence of how it worked about 9 months ago and the average win loss after prolonged tanking experiments). If it controls the win loss ratio than the skill for most players is on most parts illusionary in a sense that it makes virtually no difference what you do to your win loss.
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Post by kukurukukuk on Jun 28, 2018 1:59:57 GMT -5
Don't really know how to answer. I'm confused by the phrasing of your question. What I do know, is that I have managed to stay in low Champions League for a few months with lvl 9 gear (in average). Granted that I face Mk2 12 regularly, skill makes up for around 40% - 50% of power difference. (For me that is)
This is an inspiration! Could you kindly share your hanger setup? Cheers Sure, if it helps .
Some notes: - I never play FFA, since in this mode 1v1s are the norm and being underleveled exaggerates the power difference. - Playing in a team diminishes each individual's hangar handicaps and match-day mistakes. Positioning, situational awareness and good reflexes make up for it. - Good gear is crucial. So is sound resource investment. My hangar took 9 months to build. I've been playing for almost 2 years.
- I can afford a little bit more specialization with two hangars and with slightly less resources by limiting my gear levels to a max of 10. - I also play exclusively with an emulator on a big screen. I reckon that this, effectively helps me perform at a higher level than what my weapon/bot levels indicate.
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Post by windcaster on Jun 28, 2018 2:23:09 GMT -5
That's funny, Most matches team or not, I feel like im solo
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Post by kukurukukuk on Jun 28, 2018 2:29:47 GMT -5
That's funny, Most matches team or not, I feel like im solo lol I feel you. Let your teammates be the distraction for the reds then, so that you can perform the more delicate tasks
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Post by windcaster on Jun 28, 2018 2:33:51 GMT -5
ah, c, c, I gotcha.
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Post by r2d2 on Jun 28, 2018 2:54:28 GMT -5
Here’s my story.
I’m in and out of masters & champ league for well over 3 months now. Why I can’t stay in champs beats the heck out of me. I don’t have mk-II weps and bots and most times when I do get into champs, Mk-II players send me right back down to masters which I will then try to climb up, repeat the 5 battles to stay put, and the whole process repeats again.
I don’t question my skills set but I do question my gear. Is it enough to keep me in champs permanently? Definitely not. Most matches I play now is whoever mechs out first. You do them before they do you no matter the mode except KOTH. Sadly, it’s the team with the most mk-II gear that will rise on top. With boosters to accompany that, it’s even worse.
P2W vs. skills?...I don’t think that question is relevant anymore.
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Post by kukurukukuk on Jun 28, 2018 2:56:48 GMT -5
Two examples:
Domination in Dead City. The usual mayhem around CB goes strong. The opposition has a couple ST Spectres that pop out and chop off blue heads every 20 secs (10 if they sync it right), plus a few brawlers hiding behind covers, all within firing range of the center beacon. An unattended blue Orkan Spectre (or any other bot for that matter) can clear both red ST Spectres if it manages to reach them, thus providing extremely important breathing room for its team. The next part requires the rest of the blues to actually take advantage of it, which is not always the case, but at least you know you did your best. If it works, you'll have gained a significant advantage.
KOTH in Springfield. While both teams are busy dogfighting around CB, instead of joining them, you can march forward one of the beacons closer to the enemy's spawn, which are usually neglected until it's too late. At the very least you'll create a distraction and force an answer from the red team - which subsequently will weaken their strong frontline. If you are lucky you will manage to capture it and, again, give your team a significant advantage.
The point is that in both of these situations, you gear levels are irrelevant. Whether or not the enemy is Mk2'd is also irrelevant. What matters is the initiative and tactical approach that will determine the outcome.
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Post by windcaster on Jun 28, 2018 3:26:32 GMT -5
I wouldn't say the red hangers are irrelevent.
KOTH the most important thing is speed to get to beacons, haven't you ever played a match where there are 3-4 kumi's on you team?
It's almost like watching Olympic short track ice skaters.
You still need to be able to fend off any red's that show up at least long enough to drain the beacon. So hangers.. those "mk2's" ya they still matter.
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Post by kukurukukuk on Jun 28, 2018 3:47:13 GMT -5
Yes, of course levels matter. Otherwise this whole discussion would be moot. I'm just saying that they are just a part of the equation.
Lately, I've been rethinking my KOTH strategy. It's not always about who has the speediest or strongest bots. Sometimes, I never cap a single beacon or get any capture points at all. Instead I focus on wearing down and distracting the enemy team, or try to establish a frontline on a beacon that will soon become active. I may finish last, but results have shown that this might have been a reasonable contribution to the team.
A different approach is needed sometimes.
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Post by kevmac on Jun 28, 2018 9:46:40 GMT -5
Webster defines tactics as "Any skillful measure to achieve an end" but I'm not here to argue I've squaded against clans full of highly leveled Mk2 LR weapons set up a mile away and one and 2 shot killed any bot that tried to get in the fight.If I stay behind concealment the game stagnates and on some maps as you know there's a ton of open space so concealment till getting close enough to use say Orkins is not possible Well, I answered you before I logged on today. Now after a dozen games today and about the same yesterday, I am asking myself "What is up". Am I the only one going for beacons and wanting to engage? I found myself just sitting there the last few games watching shocktrain and other medium range exchanges. I am at a loss. I did not play this past weekend, but my experience the past 2 days is not what it was prior. Maybe it is an anomaly. Who knows. Yes bro, I mentioned a scenario that I hope doesn't become a norm,but unfortunately it may.It wasn't fun and I've put a lot of effort and time developing my hanger and if this LR power game is the new meta I'm screwed.
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cross
Destrier
Posts: 82
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Platform: Android
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Post by cross on Jun 28, 2018 23:02:55 GMT -5
This is an inspiration! Could you kindly share your hanger setup? Cheers Sure, if it helps .
Some notes: - I never play FFA, since in this mode 1v1s are the norm and being underleveled exaggerates the power difference. - Playing in a team diminishes each individual's hangar handicaps and match-day mistakes. Positioning, situational awareness and good reflexes make up for it. - Good gear is crucial. So is sound resource investment. My hangar took 9 months to build. I've been playing for almost 2 years.
- I can afford a little bit more specialization with two hangars and with slightly less resources by limiting my gear levels to a max of 10. - I also play exclusively with an emulator on a big screen. I reckon that this, effectively helps me perform at a higher level than what my weapon/bot levels indicate.
This is helpful! Thank you. Need to really grind harder for the Spectre. What emulator work best? I only heard about MeMU but the settings seem a bit too complicated to install and all.
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Post by T34 on Jun 29, 2018 0:39:30 GMT -5
Ok, lets wrap this up.
It seems the perception is that 45% of the game is dependent on skill. To reach that figure I removed the 2x 100% votes as obviously that is totally unjustifieable, does not reflect reality and would not stand up to basic scrutiny. The 80% votes are also baffling but so be it.
In general one would expect to see a bell curve like output with such surveys. And the bell curve is sort of there. And is centered around that 45% mark too.
Whether the 45% reflects reality or not is sort of irrelevant. I believe that perception as opposed to actual facts is the king in this domain.
Now, perception is only one part of the story. There is another emlement to skill in general. That is how easy it is to learn and how hard it is to master. That’s the next survey ?
Hope you participate in that too :-)
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